Guild Wars 2

So with all the very emotional “concerns” on the Mesmer forums right now I thought I’d play a bit of devil’s advocate by attempting to defend the Mesmer nerf. Not so much Arenanet’s reasoning, as the livestream was well…vague, and lacking clear specifics so that won’t be touched. First off, I’ll mention that I haven’t touched Shatter specs in awhile so I’ll steer clear from any specifics there, however I will call out some of the nonsense going on here.

From what I can tell there are several problems with thinking this is a big nerf, particularly to Clone Death builds. One of them, is this notion that DE is the bread and butter of Clone Death Builds. The problem with this, is that in practice, with all the aoe going on, it isn’t likely that your Clones are up long enough for you to DE override them to trigger the death traits frequently enough to say that this is a big nerf to it. From my experience, most of my opponents kill my clones before I can get three up most of the time.

I do suppose a very well thought out constructive criticism of my statements would be to suggest that I need to play better for not being able to consistently keep up three clones to continuously make use of DE as a trigger for the Death traits. And how reversing usage of my abilities is not a viable alternative (using DE to build up clones and using Phase Retreat and the like to trigger Death traits) due to the fact that again, most mesmers are amazing enough to consistently keep up three clones for there to be a meaningful difference in the cooldowns of skills like Mirror Images, Decoy, Phase Retreat, and Illusionary Counter, versus clone override from DE.

Second, without going into much detail into the Shatter builds for reasons previously mentioned; weren’t some of the complaints towards Arenanet centered around the problem with DE and how the clones would randomly attack something other than your desired target or was that fixed before the livestream, or did I imagine all of that?

Lastly, it doesn’t take a Cognitive Psychologist to know that being emotional causes a person’s logic and reasoning skills to go right out the window, as per the main fuel of phenomena like confirmation bias, and threatening to leave the game, and sarcastic remarks that are a clear indication of emotions running high, are not productive ways to get Arenanet to listen. If I were them, I’d just ignore the Mesmer forums till people calmed down a bit and started giving an unbiased, calm and concise criticism of the nerf with as much detail as possible, while also providing a disclaimer that the critic’s personal skills are not to be taken as the absolute standard to base any decisions on.

That being said, I will say that I am curious where they go with this, and how they’ll touch say, Warriors, who are in a very, very good place right now, and are far more cheesy than us Mesmers. But I will not act like I’m going through my menstrual cycle, without the actual patch notes. But even then…

TL;DR – There are a lot of variables associated with using DE as a trigger for Clone Death traits that I’m skeptical that it was a huge nerf to it, especially since I also doubt most mesmers can constantly keep 3 clones up to even use it.

Alasteir.7031:

So with all the very emotional “concerns” on the Mesmer forums right now I thought I’d play a bit of devil’s advocate by attempting to defend the Mesmer nerf….

Please don’t. I think we would all like to see Anet come up with some better reasons than were presented by a couple grinning fool-types in that video. Others have said it better than I and you should look up those responses in this sub forum.

Hopefully the devs will pay attention too, after they’ve had their coffee tomorrow morning.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Alasteir.7031:

So with all the very emotional “concerns” on the Mesmer forums right now I thought I’d play a bit of devil’s advocate by attempting to defend the Mesmer nerf….

Please don’t. I think we would all like to see Anet come up with some better reasons than were presented by a couple grinning fool-types in that video. Others have said it better than I and you should look up those responses in this sub forum.

Hopefully the devs will pay attention too, after they’ve had their coffee tomorrow morning.

I will, because the majority of the player responses are not in any way constructive. So suffice to say that those who are calm and are waiting to see what happens can ignore my post. I have seen most of the responses, and a lot of them are just ‘whiny’. Not saying their decision is a good one, but I do think a lot of Mesmer players are blowing it out of proportion.

Try this one;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Deceptive-Evasion-nerf/3516180

Or this one;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Deceptive-Evasion-nerf/3516356

And to reiterate, I really don’t want to ever again see another player defending Anet decisions. You don’t have a direct line to them, why do you even try to speak for them?

They can and should do it themselves. Yes, I know. It’s Sunday. I can wait for them to answer on Monday.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Try this one;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Deceptive-Evasion-nerf/3516180

Or this one;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Deceptive-Evasion-nerf/3516356

And to reiterate, I really don’t want to ever again see another player defending Anet decisions. You don’t have a direct line to them, why do you even try to speak for them?
They can and should do it themselves. Yes, I know. It’s Sunday. I can wait for them to answer on Monday.

Both I’ve seen. The first is more in line with what I’m trying to say in that, this nerf is not a big deal, hence why people shouldn’t be so upset over it, and of course, is a weird choice for a nerf. I mean how often are people standing next to a clone which will be the one overridden by DE? Again I refer back to my post on how it isn’t very common to have 3 clones up a lot. So why all the uproar seemingly mimicking the Ele forums?

The second one is one I can agree with hence I didn’t bother defending Arenanet’s statements. My post criticized the players’ reactions to the nerf, more than defending what Arenanet said in the livestream.

EDIT: Response to your latest edit – Have you read my post? I am not defending Arenanet directly. I am saying that you, and a lot of other Mesmers are making this issue WAY more of a big deal than it is. It isn’t about defending Arenanet. It isn’t about “us” versus “them” like you seem to think it is. It is about a relatively minor nerf that is being seen as big enough to abandon any semblance of rationality. That of course does not apply to everyone. Some Mesmers are actually being more rational and are simply curious as to what Arenanet’s logic behind this is.

Alasteir.7031:

EDIT: Response to your latest edit – Have you read my post? I am not defending Arenanet directly. I am saying that you, and a lot of other Mesmers are making this issue WAY more of a big deal than it is.

Between the planned changes to celestial gear and crit damage, and this planned change to DE, my WvW roaming mesmer DoT will be nerfed by a minimum of 15%.

That’s not a big deal?

The emotional part comes in, when a bunch of so called Dev’s sit together, throwing in a mechanism they do not even know what it is called in a video live stream (honestly, he was asked to change something and does not even know what it is) calling its usage cheesy (whatever that means) in PvP as reason for a major nerf that will result in drawbacks for other playstyles for all aspects of the game that are subpar already which they clearly missed totally while “fixing” it.

Kitten long sentence but it describes the impression of a bunch of people who are responsible for the balancing of a game who obviously have absolutely no clue what’s going on with the mesmer profession, breaking a whole lot of things by trying to fix one single thing in arena PvP.

If these guys are responsible for the profession and item advancement, all hope is lost.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Alasteir.7031:

EDIT: Response to your latest edit – Have you read my post? I am not defending Arenanet directly. I am saying that you, and a lot of other Mesmers are making this issue WAY more of a big deal than it is.

Between the planned changes to celestial gear and crit damage, and this planned change to DE my WvW roaming mesmer DoT will be nerfed by a minimum of 15%.

That’s not a big deal?

Not that I’m aware of, as I didn’t think Celestial gear was that efficient for Mesmers to be using it instead of say, Rabid gear, and since DoTs rely more on Condition damage than Crit damage, I don’t see why that is a big deal? And again, if players you are fighting are constantly staying near the clone that will be destroyed with DE, then I doubt this nerf will make you have much issues.

If you want to talk about what the crit damage nerf does to Mesmers, we can talk about that, but that’s not the issue.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

The emotional part comes in, when a bunch of so called Dev’s sit together, throwing in a mechanism they do not even know what it is called in a video live stream (honestly, he was asked to change something and does not even know what it is) calling its usage cheesy (whatever that means) in PvP as reason for a major nerf that will result in drawbacks for other playstyles for all aspects of the game that are subpar already which they clearly missed totally while “fixing” it.

Kitten long sentence but it describes the impression of a bunch of people who are responsible for the balancing of a game who obviously have absolutely no clue what’s going on with the mesmer profession, breaking a whole lot of things by trying to fix one single thing in arena PvP.

If these guys are responsible for the profession and item advancement, all hope is lost.

And this is what I’m talking about. If you want Arenanet to listen, then whining about the employees is less effective than criticising the nerf in depth, with concise detail, which is very different than simply saying it’s a major nerf. There’s still no guarantee that Arenanet will even listen, but it is definitely a better option than a huge uproar that lacks any semblance of objectivity.

It is very hard for a person to be tactful and rational, when they are emotional.

I only explained why people get all emotional about it, that was your question, this is the answer. Don’t shoot the messenger.

Alasteir.7031:

…I didn’t think Celestial gear was that efficient for Mesmers to be using…

You are planning to build more than one set of Ascended gear?

I planned on one set of gear and only one set, for my main because I gave up trying to gear up my alts when Ascended was originally introduced. Celestial Ascended on my mesmer lets me take my main character to all areas of the game that I enjoy, without having to change gear or trait build.

I’m done. I’m not building another set. Certainly not after what it has taken to get that Ascended set, in a game that was marketed on the strength of Horizontal Progression.

This change to the most important mesmer trait is just a further slap, and you questioning me on it is even worse.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I only explained why people get all emotional about it, that was your question, this is the answer. Don’t shoot the messenger.

Ah, I apologize. I sincerely wasn’t able to tell the difference.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Alasteir.7031:

…I didn’t think Celestial gear was that efficient for Mesmers to be using…

You are planning to build more than one set of Ascended gear?

I planned on one set of gear and only one set, for my main because I gave up trying to gear up my alts when Ascended was originally introduced. Celestial Ascended on my mesmer lets me take my main character to all areas of the game that I enjoy, without having to change gear or trait build.

I’m done. I’m not building another set. Certainly not after what it has taken to get that Ascended set, in a game that was marketed on the strength of Horizontal Progression.

This change to the most important mesmer trait is just a further slap, and you questioning me on it is even worse.

Questioning things should only cement your position, given that it is the right one. If it is merely a matter of personal taste, then it shouldn’t apply to you.

/devnullresponse

Please stop trying to defend Anet. I’m sure they can do it themselves, and given that you still don’t have a direct line to them, it might be possible that they don’t need or even want your help.

Sometime after the Monday morning coffee break in Seattle, I hope we get to see some signs of life from the devs.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

/devnullresponse

Please stop trying to defend Anet. I’m sure they can do it themselves, and given that you still don’t have a direct line to them, it might be possible that they don’t need or even want your help.

Sometime after the Monday morning coffee break in Seattle, I hope we get to see some signs of life from the devs.

Again, I’m not defending them. I’m saying that the way most mesmers are responding is not productive in improving Mesmers.

Alasteir.7031:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I only explained why people get all emotional about it, that was your question, this is the answer. Don’t shoot the messenger.

Ah, I apologize. I sincerely wasn’t able to tell the difference.

Ah sorry, I meant it the way I said it though. Hope I didn’t confuse you too much. There are a times to explain things nicely, and there are times to smear the poop someone produced all over their face so they realize what they have actually produced and feel ashamed for it.

They should feel ashamed for how they handled this sensitive topic, so I did the latter.

Alasteir.7031:

Again, I’m not defending them. I’m saying that the way most mesmers are responding is not productive in improving Mesmers.

If Anet listens at all, then we have been productive. Pretty simple logic statement there.

Admittedly, Anet doesn’t always listen but again you don’t have a direct line to Anet, and you probably don’t have a crystal ball, so how can you tell use they wont listen once they get back to work tomorrow?

Ah yeah, you can’t.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Alasteir.7031:

Again, I’m not defending them. I’m saying that the way most mesmers are responding is not productive in improving Mesmers.

If Anet listens at all, then we have been productive. Pretty simple logic statement there.

Admittedly, Anet doesn’t always listen but again you don’t have a direct line to Anet, and you probably don’t have a crystal ball, so how can you tell use they wont listen once they get back to work tomorrow?

Ah yeah, you can’t.

Because your whining is just whining. What is there to listen to? Being productive does several things, one of which is how they can do better, and the problems with their version. What you’re doing does neither. And they themselves have asked repeatedly not to do what you’re doing and to try and be constructive.

And based on how arenanet tends to reply more to people who are actually productive, than whiny, I would say I have a better chance of being right than you.

At this point you’re just whining about whining, Alasteir. People will react how they want to, and your lecturing them about being overly emotional just comes off as holier-than-thou and insulting to the rest of the community that are actually presenting well-reasoned and logical arguments.

Valarauka.2719:

At this point you’re just whining about whining, Alasteir. People will react how they want to, and your lecturing them about being overly emotional just comes off as holier-than-thou and insulting to the rest of the community that are actually presenting well-reasoned and logical arguments.

At this point? You mean my scuffle with the other person here? Since that was an attempt to convince him/her that this issue is being overblown by the community. Holier-than-thou? I honestly don’t care how I come off. I suppose I could be more tactful and hope that they realize that they are overblowing this issue, and on that note, the majority of the community are not presenting well-reasoned and logical arguments. A few of them that are reasonable are taking more issue with why Anet even bothered with the nerf, they’re more reasonable than the others who see this as a huge nerf to mesmers.

My point remains. Whining TO Anet does nothing productive. Period. Even if my attempt to point that out ends up in failure, it is what it is.

Another thing. Whining to me that I’m whining about whining, is not exactly a refutation of my main post, that most of the Mesmers on this forum are overblowing this issue. Specifically the more emotional ones. I do believe I mentioned somewhere either in my op, or in response to one of the replies, that if you or anyone else were one of the logical and reasonable ones (even though everyone and their mother believes they’re that way) that it did not apply to you. The whole point of any of this is to point out, that if they wanted to see a better change with the Mesmer profession, that being overly emotional and upset will NOT produce results in direct comparison to being collected, sincere, specific and concise in a criticism to Anet, as per their requests on several occasions.

Alasteir.7031:

If I were them, I’d just ignore the Mesmer forums till people calmed down a bit and started giving an unbiased, calm and concise criticism of the nerf with as much detail as possible, while also providing a disclaimer that the critic’s personal skills are not to be taken as the absolute standard to base any decisions on.

As opposed to them not ignoring the mesmer forums, which is what they do when precisely?

Jorjeis.2169:

Alasteir.7031:

If I were them, I’d just ignore the Mesmer forums till people calmed down a bit and started giving an unbiased, calm and concise criticism of the nerf with as much detail as possible, while also providing a disclaimer that the critic’s personal skills are not to be taken as the absolute standard to base any decisions on.

As opposed to them not ignoring the mesmer forums, which is what they do when precisely?

Ever wonder why they ignore the mesmer forums? Besides the existence of the Profession Balance forum now, I hypothesize the reason that they ignore the Mesmer forums is that rarely does anyone provide an actual unbiased, concise and specific criticism of Anet’s course of action.

Unbiased does not mean emotional, upset and insulting to Anet.
Concise and specific do not mean being vague and not providing actual data and information regarding the issue, and it certainly does not mean being foolish enough to think that generalizations are useful in a criticism.

When have you seen a Mesmer (or any player on any of the profession forums) actually providing data and a series of tests in response to one of Arenanet’s changes to see if it actually stands? These forums have a history of overreacting, it shouldn’t come as a surprise to you that Arenanet ignores the forums, ESPECIALLY when they end up flat out asking for an actual constructive criticism rather than the usual outcries.

It can’t be emphasized enough that everyone, everyone believes themselves to be rational, logical, and always believe their concerns are logical and rational. Even when they aren’t. This is why it usually takes someone else pointing out the flaws to see it.

These forums need an ignore option.

Waiting for coffee time in Seattle.

Alasteir.7031:

Ever wonder why they ignore the mesmer forums? Besides the existence of the Profession Balance forum now, I hypothesize the reason that they ignore the Mesmer forums is that rarely does anyone provide an actual unbiased, concise and specific criticism of Anet’s course of action.

Unbiased does not mean emotional, upset and insulting to Anet.
Concise and specific do not mean being vague and not providing actual data and information regarding the issue, and it certainly does not mean being foolish enough to think that generalizations are useful in a criticism.

When have you seen a Mesmer (or any player on any of the profession forums) actually providing data and a series of tests in response to one of Arenanet’s changes to see if it actually stands? These forums have a history of overreacting, it shouldn’t come as a surprise to you that Arenanet ignores the forums, ESPECIALLY when they end up flat out asking for an actual constructive criticism rather than the usual outcries.

It can’t be emphasized enough that everyone, everyone believes themselves to be rational, logical, and always believe their concerns are logical and rational. Even when they aren’t. This is why it usually takes someone else pointing out the flaws to see it.

While I agree with you that facts have more weight than theories or opinions, it has always been considered bad business to be reactive instead of proactive. This is no different.

Secondly, I also agree that insulting and being down right ugly to developers is wrong, however there is a certain degree in which insulting their character when related to their job is correct. Insulting them by calling them dumb is bad, insulting them by saying they are clueless to the class’ mechanics is not. If the consumer base is concerned that those in charge of roles seem to be unfit for their roles, they have every right to comment on it. The company should be made aware and see if there is merit in those concerns so that they can take appropriate action either by looking to educate the individual or by finding someone else to take on the role.

Alasteir.7031:

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Try this one;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Deceptive-Evasion-nerf/3516180

Or this one;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Deceptive-Evasion-nerf/3516356

And to reiterate, I really don’t want to ever again see another player defending Anet decisions. You don’t have a direct line to them, why do you even try to speak for them?
They can and should do it themselves. Yes, I know. It’s Sunday. I can wait for them to answer on Monday.

Both I’ve seen. The first is more in line with what I’m trying to say in that, this nerf is not a big deal, hence why people shouldn’t be so upset over it, and of course, is a weird choice for a nerf. I mean how often are people standing next to a clone which will be the one overridden by DE? Again I refer back to my post on how it isn’t very common to have 3 clones up a lot. So why all the uproar seemingly mimicking the Ele forums?

The second one is one I can agree with hence I didn’t bother defending Arenanet’s statements. My post criticized the players’ reactions to the nerf, more than defending what Arenanet said in the livestream.

EDIT: Response to your latest edit – Have you read my post? I am not defending Arenanet directly. I am saying that you, and a lot of other Mesmers are making this issue WAY more of a big deal than it is. It isn’t about defending Arenanet. It isn’t about “us” versus “them” like you seem to think it is. It is about a relatively minor nerf that is being seen as big enough to abandon any semblance of rationality. That of course does not apply to everyone. Some Mesmers are actually being more rational and are simply curious as to what Arenanet’s logic behind this is.

i think u dont really get why people are upset. de is important for many different builds and not having a clone on dodge because u have 3 illusions up while u are getting attacked by a second enemy for example is a problem. they handled it wrong because they fail to understand our class.
and many of us are also upset that since the massive nerfs mesmer has gotten absolutely nothing to make up for it. now another nerf and no way out of the veilbot state. and the all of this was presented to us with a laughing and mocking dev team. thats why people are mad. and im glad to see mesmers finally speak up after weve been ignored and nerfed to the ground in wvw and now another core mechanic is being attacked. confusion nerf was the same. its not even worth speccing into it anymore, this is how bad it got nerfed.
vigor nerf plus de nerf is quiet a big nerf.

Alasteir.7031:

Jorjeis.2169:

Alasteir.7031:

If I were them, I’d just ignore the Mesmer forums till people calmed down a bit and started giving an unbiased, calm and concise criticism of the nerf with as much detail as possible, while also providing a disclaimer that the critic’s personal skills are not to be taken as the absolute standard to base any decisions on.

As opposed to them not ignoring the mesmer forums, which is what they do when precisely?

Ever wonder why they ignore the mesmer forums? Besides the existence of the Profession Balance forum now, I hypothesize the reason that they ignore the Mesmer forums is that rarely does anyone provide an actual unbiased, concise and specific criticism of Anet’s course of action.

Unbiased does not mean emotional, upset and insulting to Anet.
Concise and specific do not mean being vague and not providing actual data and information regarding the issue, and it certainly does not mean being foolish enough to think that generalizations are useful in a criticism.

When have you seen a Mesmer (or any player on any of the profession forums) actually providing data and a series of tests in response to one of Arenanet’s changes to see if it actually stands? These forums have a history of overreacting, it shouldn’t come as a surprise to you that Arenanet ignores the forums, ESPECIALLY when they end up flat out asking for an actual constructive criticism rather than the usual outcries.

It can’t be emphasized enough that everyone, everyone believes themselves to be rational, logical, and always believe their concerns are logical and rational. Even when they aren’t. This is why it usually takes someone else pointing out the flaws to see it.

this statement is absolutely false and not well thought out at all. sry but pyro provided us with tons of number, people suggested tons of fixes, tons of ideas and also voiced problems in a constructive way. the other forums are 10 times worse. thieves forum is full of this is the end of the world comments, warriors is full of we deserver to be so good and then the massive qq threads about hammer nerfs.
the mesmer forum was so quiet and we have a lot of great threads like the omfg threads that are very constructive, build contests and all that. how dare u putting us all in the same box!
i was actually getting mad at the mesmer forums because we never really fought back. it is time to speak up! im tired of being a veilbot! very very tired! since the massive confusion and other nerfs last may mesmer has gotten NOTHING! all the tiny buffs were a joke.MANTRAS?! yay aoe ….but only 240 range(u kidding me) oh and pu….yeah ok but this is not helping me much in wvw apart from survival!
meanwhile staffeles get buffed, warriors got buffed like crazy, necros had their condi buffed like crazy, engis got tons of fixes and buffs, ranger got spirit ranger buffs…and then nerfs again….. and mesmer is veilbot for almost a year now. veil veil veil veilveil veilveilveil. and now we get more nerfs. enough is enough!

selan.8354:

Alasteir.7031:

Jorjeis.2169:

Alasteir.7031:

If I were them, I’d just ignore the Mesmer forums till people calmed down a bit and started giving an unbiased, calm and concise criticism of the nerf with as much detail as possible, while also providing a disclaimer that the critic’s personal skills are not to be taken as the absolute standard to base any decisions on.

As opposed to them not ignoring the mesmer forums, which is what they do when precisely?

Ever wonder why they ignore the mesmer forums? Besides the existence of the Profession Balance forum now, I hypothesize the reason that they ignore the Mesmer forums is that rarely does anyone provide an actual unbiased, concise and specific criticism of Anet’s course of action.

Unbiased does not mean emotional, upset and insulting to Anet.
Concise and specific do not mean being vague and not providing actual data and information regarding the issue, and it certainly does not mean being foolish enough to think that generalizations are useful in a criticism.

When have you seen a Mesmer (or any player on any of the profession forums) actually providing data and a series of tests in response to one of Arenanet’s changes to see if it actually stands? These forums have a history of overreacting, it shouldn’t come as a surprise to you that Arenanet ignores the forums, ESPECIALLY when they end up flat out asking for an actual constructive criticism rather than the usual outcries.

It can’t be emphasized enough that everyone, everyone believes themselves to be rational, logical, and always believe their concerns are logical and rational. Even when they aren’t. This is why it usually takes someone else pointing out the flaws to see it.

this statement is absolutely false and not well thought out at all. sry but pyro provided us with tons of number, people suggested tons of fixes, tons of ideas and also voiced problems in a constructive way. the other forums are 10 times worse. thieves forum is full of this is the end of the world comments, warriors is full of we deserver to be so good and then the massive qq threads about hammer nerfs.
the mesmer forum was so quiet and we have a lot of great threads like the omfg threads that are very constructive, build contests and all that. how dare u putting us all in the same box!
i was actually getting mad at the mesmer forums because we never really fought back. it is time to speak up! im tired of being a veilbot! very very tired! since the massive confusion and other nerfs last may mesmer has gotten NOTHING! all the tiny buffs were a joke.MANTRAS?! yay aoe ….but only 240 range(u kidding me) oh and pu….yeah ok but this is not helping me much in wvw apart from survival!
meanwhile staffeles get buffed, warriors got buffed like crazy, necros had their condi buffed like crazy, engis got tons of fixes and buffs, ranger got spirit ranger buffs…and then nerfs again….. and mesmer is veilbot for almost a year now. veil veil veil veilveil veilveilveil. and now we get more nerfs. enough is enough!

How dare I what? Make it clear again and again that the subject of my criticism are those such as yourself whom are being overly emotional on the issue, and not others whom are either quiet, or relatively calm about the issue, and aren’t making it seem like it’s the end of the world? Because I’ve made that clear in several of my posts in this thread.

Also, if my post is absolutely false, then you wouldn’t mind linking directly to the many posts which provide possible fixes and solutions that are well thought out regarding the DE issue then, so I can see for myself what your standard of “well-thought out” is?

From what I can see, only a minority are actually being constructive.

RoChan.1926:

Alasteir.7031:

Ever wonder why they ignore the mesmer forums? Besides the existence of the Profession Balance forum now, I hypothesize the reason that they ignore the Mesmer forums is that rarely does anyone provide an actual unbiased, concise and specific criticism of Anet’s course of action.

Unbiased does not mean emotional, upset and insulting to Anet.
Concise and specific do not mean being vague and not providing actual data and information regarding the issue, and it certainly does not mean being foolish enough to think that generalizations are useful in a criticism.

When have you seen a Mesmer (or any player on any of the profession forums) actually providing data and a series of tests in response to one of Arenanet’s changes to see if it actually stands? These forums have a history of overreacting, it shouldn’t come as a surprise to you that Arenanet ignores the forums, ESPECIALLY when they end up flat out asking for an actual constructive criticism rather than the usual outcries.

It can’t be emphasized enough that everyone, everyone believes themselves to be rational, logical, and always believe their concerns are logical and rational. Even when they aren’t. This is why it usually takes someone else pointing out the flaws to see it.

While I agree with you that facts have more weight than theories or opinions, it has always been considered bad business to be reactive instead of proactive. This is no different.

Secondly, I also agree that insulting and being down right ugly to developers is wrong, however there is a certain degree in which insulting their character when related to their job is correct. Insulting them by calling them dumb is bad, insulting them by saying they are clueless to the class’ mechanics is not. If the consumer base is concerned that those in charge of roles seem to be unfit for their roles, they have every right to comment on it. The company should be made aware and see if there is merit in those concerns so that they can take appropriate action either by looking to educate the individual or by finding someone else to take on the role.

And I’m of the notion that in order to properly criticize the lack of ability for a Dev to properly do their job, the person still needs to be concise. I never stated once that you, or anyone else has no right to comment. So I don’t see why you say that. However, what I am saying is that simply saying they suck at their job, does nothing.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

These forums need an ignore option.

Waiting for coffee time in Seattle.

They do indeed. That way people can choose to ignore those who disagree with them right? Might leave the debates in a better place.

The majority is voicing WHY the change is problematic. I do not see that as a bad thing even if they do not provide an alternative solution.

I have not been as constructive as I normally would be. I am angry this time around. I have lost faith in the developers and their ability to make good Mesmer design decision.

I have however voiced my concerns for the shatter Mesmer, which is what I play. I explained the issues, which I personally think these changes will bring. I have supported others voicing similar concerns.

If you consider that “whining” then so be it. I consider it valid information, as it appears the developers might not have considered the impact it will have on several Mesmer specs.

You have to keep in mind that being constructive is does not mean being positive or even have a solution. You can be constructive while criticizing the changes, which I do believe several people have mastered flawlessly. Me not being one of them.

Reesha.7901:

The majority is voicing WHY the change is problematic. I do not see that as a bad thing even if they do not provide an alternative solution.

I have not been as constructive as I normally would be. I am angry this time around. I have lost faith in the developers and their ability to make good Mesmer design decision.

I have however voiced my concerns for the shatter Mesmer, which is what I play. I explained the issues, which I personally think these changes will bring. I have supported others voicing similar concerns.

If you consider that “whining” then so be it. I consider it valid information, as it appears the developers might not have considered the impact it will have on several Mesmer specs.

You have to keep in mind that being constructive is does not mean being positive or even have a solution. You can be constructive while criticizing the changes, which I do believe several people have mastered flawlessly. Me not being one of them.

I consider the whining to be the type of inflammatory remarks that tend to not provide any useful information as to why, specifically the change is bad, while also being highly emotional. Although I do not consider your reply to me to be whining.

Here’s the thing. I can live with vigor nerf, I can live with DE nerf, I can live with crit dmg nerf but ALL together… it’s hard to not being worried as a shatter mesmer.
It’s already hard enough to play gc shatter with the current meta, especialy in wvw and its overabundance of cheesy builds. But this is the playstyle I chose, and I have to assume my choice and not whine about dying more than with a passive PU build.

Now, I come to our forum to realize that my class will get nerfed again. And not just one time, but three times, and it will mainly affect my build ( which is not a popular or easy one).

It’s hard to not being pesimistic. I don’t want to get forced to play a passive build like the majority of mesmers do in wvw. It’s not good for me, it’s not good for the game diversity. But apparently, it’s the way ANet chose to handle their game, and whatever we say, it remains their game.

this thread is becoming more & more emotional, keep it up

Nausicca.6038:

Here’s the thing. I can live with vigor nerf, I can live with DE nerf, I can live with crit dmg nerf but ALL together… it’s hard to not being worried as a shatter mesmer.

In one shot they are going to kill my armor, my trinkets, my weapons, and my build.

Hopefully they’ve got some strong coffee this morning.

Because I am forum hunting down mesmer posts and haven’t actually gone to this one yet ( =P ) I have to ask: Which builds are you all talking about? And for some of us (like me) who did not and will not watch the live stream for various reason, can you either summarize or bullet-point what they said about mesmers? And maybe thieves? I play both as main, but thief is a dirt-kisser in competitive play compared to Mesmer/Thief/Ranger/Necromancer/Engineer/Warrior/Guardian/skilled-elementalists right now. Thanks much.
My only question right now is: I made a previous post that the DE nerf would wreck my hybrid mesmer build that granted regen to nearby allies (stupidly small radius) and then granted me protection, my signet gave me another boon and I could use that to save team briefly. These would be unkillable (+70% hp) and have retaliation and some other fun stuff. Will this build not work anymore? Because as a tanky support, this build is beautiful.

I have to side with Alasteir on this one.
People have made a mountain out of a mole hill, and personally I find it kind of amusing.
That, and the irony that that Alasteir points out the emotional reaction of people, only to get a series of emotional reactions. Glorious!

I don’t see the change as all the bad, it’s very mild honestly. And I have a full DE/clone death build, so it effects me the most, and it’s still pretty minor.
A lot of the reactions I’ve seen smack of confirmation bias. Counting the hits and ignoring the misses.

People act like these are the only changes the Mesmer is getting in this round of balance changes, which is simply not true. Arenanet only chose to focus on these two issues, because they simply didn’t have the time to list off every possible change, esp since many of them are still in a state of flux.

Sure, they could have thrown us a bone, and talked about a buff that was incoming.
But in either case, I’m sure there are plenty of balance changes to make up for this minor nerf that we don’t yet know about.

I’m going to wait and see, rather then get my panties in a bunch.

The problem is the way it was presented. They were dismissive of mesmers in the extreme in the livestream, and that just doesn’t cut it. Honestly I don’t even use DE, but the way balance team approach mesmers, and the results they produce tend to indicate they don’t have a clue.

As has been pointed out Pyro and others have provided stats and constructive posts plenty in the past. They all get ignored. The fact that iWarden, one of the key phantasms is bugged to the point where it’s almost unusable, and there is no fix in sight just isn’t good enough. The fact that the best change they made for the mesmer (the Chaos Storm/CS bug) was a mistake also speaks to the fact that clearly none of the dev team play mesmer. Otherwise how did either of these get past QA; they’re both bugs that are immediately obvious on first use?

I really like Alasteir’s post and agree with him.

This nerf while being a little painful is not the end of the world for mesmer. Personally I never have the expectation of a mmo being balanced in the first place. Balance is very subjective and constantly shifting in any mmo that is alive and active.

IMO even if this nerf goes through mesmer will still be in a good spot. The vigor nerf bothers me way more than the DE nerf.

Alasteir.7031:

RoChan.1926:

Alasteir.7031:

Ever wonder why they ignore the mesmer forums? Besides the existence of the Profession Balance forum now, I hypothesize the reason that they ignore the Mesmer forums is that rarely does anyone provide an actual unbiased, concise and specific criticism of Anet’s course of action.

Unbiased does not mean emotional, upset and insulting to Anet.
Concise and specific do not mean being vague and not providing actual data and information regarding the issue, and it certainly does not mean being foolish enough to think that generalizations are useful in a criticism.

When have you seen a Mesmer (or any player on any of the profession forums) actually providing data and a series of tests in response to one of Arenanet’s changes to see if it actually stands? These forums have a history of overreacting, it shouldn’t come as a surprise to you that Arenanet ignores the forums, ESPECIALLY when they end up flat out asking for an actual constructive criticism rather than the usual outcries.

It can’t be emphasized enough that everyone, everyone believes themselves to be rational, logical, and always believe their concerns are logical and rational. Even when they aren’t. This is why it usually takes someone else pointing out the flaws to see it.

While I agree with you that facts have more weight than theories or opinions, it has always been considered bad business to be reactive instead of proactive. This is no different.

Secondly, I also agree that insulting and being down right ugly to developers is wrong, however there is a certain degree in which insulting their character when related to their job is correct. Insulting them by calling them dumb is bad, insulting them by saying they are clueless to the class’ mechanics is not. If the consumer base is concerned that those in charge of roles seem to be unfit for their roles, they have every right to comment on it. The company should be made aware and see if there is merit in those concerns so that they can take appropriate action either by looking to educate the individual or by finding someone else to take on the role.

And I’m of the notion that in order to properly criticize the lack of ability for a Dev to properly do their job, the person still needs to be concise. I never stated once that you, or anyone else has no right to comment. So I don’t see why you say that. However, what I am saying is that simply saying they suck at their job, does nothing.

Well, it’s partly because SOMETIMES AN don’t do a very good job, to put it nicely. It’s obvious they don’t always do a lot of testing, certainly not in a raid wvw environment, before making some of these changes. If they had in this case, they wouldn’t have proposed the change in the first place (talking about DE nerf), they would have known through testing it first that it was a bad idea. It took some constructive feedback and testing by people who actually play the game to get them to recognize there was a problem, which is why they’re now saying they need to go about it a different way.

But that’s where so much of the “very emotional concerns” that you go on about come from: the fact that the players knew that this was yet another kind of bandaid fix that AN pulled out of their kittens, without any real testing, apparently even on a theoretical basis, beforehand. If they weren’t certain it was something they were going to implement, but was instead only one of many ideas they were toying with, then they should never have put it out there like they did. Because they sure didn’t present it as a “maybe,” they presented like it was a done deal, set in stone. I’m not saying that some forum members weren’t maybe a little out of line, maybe some of them were spewing more emotional vitriol than giving constructive feedback – BUT, on the other hand, I’m not so sure that AN would have figured out there was something wrong if NOT for the very vocal outcry over it.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. I personally DON’T have a very emotional involvement in it all. Either AN will get their act together and I’ll start playing the game again, or they won’t and I’ll just wait it out till ESO and Archeage roll out in a few months and dive into one or both of those.