Guild Wars 2

Why is the power scaling on Scepter skills so terrible? It has the potential to be a pretty decent weapon outside of condi builds: the AA has nothing to do with conditions and gen’s a clone every third hit (good for non-phant builds), it’s got a block(blind) and a potential damage nuke in the form of Confusing Images, but the damage scales off of power so poorly that it loses that potential.
It is forever lost as a phantasm weapon due to the clone gen on auto attack, but that’s not to say it can’t be good in a large variety of other builds if they adjust how well it scales off of power.

Am I misunderstanding the nature of how damage scaling on Power works in this game, or is there some real potential for making this weapon half decent without causing it’s condition build counterpart to become over powered as a result?

This is a problem I see across the whole game, there seems to be a potential to allow greater build diversity (with respects to condition vs direct damage builds specifically) if they increase power scaling on condi focused weapons, and introduced select traits that gave non-condi weapons a chance to apply conditions on attack (sticking with Mesmer for the example: A new trait that give greatsword a X% chance to inflict burn on hit).

If I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how scaling works which would make such changes improbable, I would appreciate an explanation with math behind it to tell me why it wont work.

Instead of looking at the scaling, look at how hard you hit in practice. Confusing images is a ranged, non-projectile, non-strafable, non-self rooting burst on 12s cooldown.

Heinel.6548:

Instead of looking at the scaling, look at how hard you hit in practice. Confusing images is a ranged, non-projectile, non-strafable, non-self rooting burst on 12s cooldown.

Confusing Images is indeed good, both its base damage and scaling are reasonable, and as you mentioned it functions very well. That skill is in fact what made me start thinking about scepter as a DD weapon. The problem is that the auto attack hits like a wet noodle, and the fact that it’s ranged and spawns a clone is not a big enough justification for that.
Compare it to the sword for example, which applies vulnerability and boon strips, cleaves and does way more damage. Melee will of course do more damage then range, but the difference is far too great.
Illusionary Counter is equally weak. The low base damage is to be expect because it applies conditions, but the scaling is literally half that of Riposte’s, which is disproportionately low.

Well, sword 3 does no damage. I don’t see anyone complaining about that?

Each ability has it’s own function, and it’s not always to produce big numbers (though both scepter 2 and 3 can produce huge numbers, just not in the same build).

If this is another scepter 1 revamp post, please keep it in the existing thread, so it’s easier for devs to see, and also allow others to comment.

Heinel.6548:

Well, sword 3 does no damage. I don’t see anyone complaining about that?

Each ability has it’s own function, and it’s not always to produce big numbers (though both scepter 2 and 3 can produce huge numbers, just not in the same build).

If this is another scepter 1 revamp post, please keep it in the existing thread, so it’s easier for devs to see, and also allow others to comment.

As both the title and post imply, this thread is meant to deal with the issue of power scaling, specifically using scepter as an example. I personally would like to see Scepter revamped(which I have talked about in other threads) but that’s not what I’m bringing up here, this is simply about balance/number tweaking to improve build variety, not revamping, and not even limited to scepter.
You’re right that not every ability is about damage, however scepter #2 is a strong means of applying conditions in a condition build, and comparative skill such as Riposte see higher damage numbers for DD, so I did have reason to develop a certain expectation that this skill would deal noteworthy damage.
The main offender for the scepter is the auto attack though, the damage scaling is simply too low for its attack speed and utility.

If it’s only about power scaling, that is due to the promise that the classes are supposed to all be capable of self sustenance with well rounded abilities and that the system will not allow you to create a build too lopsided to function (unlike gw1). It’s a design decision.

Arewn.2368:

The problem is that the auto attack hits like a wet noodle, and the fact that it’s ranged and spawns a clone is not a big enough justification for that.

The way I see it, the weak AA is the “justification” for the strong #2 and #3. Which makes the weapon quite ok in my mind, but I seem to mind minute balance quite little compared to many, so YMMV.

Thing is, the main annoyance for me is the way my Asura yells when doing the third AA shot. That’s much more an issue than anything else really because it’s like chinese water torture for the brain. -.-

Well arenanet said they will take a look at the scepter for the december patch. The aa is broken – it doesn’t even work with TW due it’s mechanics. The dps requres a boost I guess. However I better compare it first with staff gs and sword.

If I had to completely re-invent the Scepter AA, it’d work like this:

Ether Clone
Shoot a bolt of energy at your target, summoning a clone right next to them.

Ether Army
Summon 2 more temporary clones around you. These function like normal clones but do not benefit from any effect, have 1 health and cannot be used for shatter or traits.

Ether Swap
You and the Ether Clone randomly swap positions with the temporary clones. If all 3 clones are still alive after this, the two temporary clones will run up to the enemy and self-destruct for area damage.

Carighan.6758:

…

D:

The upside would be that only the first element would rely on a projectile. So the chain-advancement issue is solved automatically.

The downside would be the random teleportation on the third move.

Heinel.6548:

If it’s only about power scaling, that is due to the promise that the classes are supposed to all be capable of self sustenance with well rounded abilities and that the system will not allow you to create a build too lopsided to function (unlike gw1). It’s a design decision.

I struggle to see how the poor scaling on Scepter supports that design choice, if anything it works against it. Currently, by building power and choosing Scepter as a weapon you are making a build that is “lopsided”: it functions poorly and is not self sufficient. On the other hand they have the potential of increasing build diversity and getting rid of that lopsided choice if they increase the power scaling on scepter to an acceptable level. Such balance tweaking would need to be carefully done so as to not make certain builds (such as hybrid builds) over powered, but given the current state of affairs they have a lot of buffing to do before reaching that point.

Arewn.2368:

Heinel.6548:

If it’s only about power scaling, that is due to the promise that the classes are supposed to all be capable of self sustenance with well rounded abilities and that the system will not allow you to create a build too lopsided to function (unlike gw1). It’s a design decision.

I struggle to see how the poor scaling on Scepter supports that design choice, if anything it works against it. Currently, by building power and choosing Scepter as a weapon you are making a build that is “lopsided”: it functions poorly and is not self sufficient. On the other hand they have the potential of increasing build diversity and getting rid of that lopsided choice if they increase the power scaling on scepter to an acceptable level. Such balance tweaking would need to be carefully done so as to not make certain builds (such as hybrid builds) over powered, but given the current state of affairs they have a lot of buffing to do before reaching that point.

This is not the correct way to view the situation.

If power scaling were to increase, then power will grant a benefit greater than other stat combinations, this will force everyone to roll high power builds.

A similar argument to yours was made about healing power in the guardian forums. The answer to it was the same—if healing power was boosted, then everyone will roll bunker builds to troll the cap circles. The game is balanced around each character being capable of applying damage as well as self sustain together with the same build. You will always need both and while you can favor one stat over another, it will never be like trinity games where you can completely specialize into one to the detriment to the other.

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If it is as I suspected and you just simply want a scepter rework because you have already chosen power as your stat of choice and cannot fit the scepter into your build (in other words your argument isn’t about stats), then I will again direct you to existing scepter rework threads.

Fair point actually.

Realistically, power-scaling is too high throughout the game. Especially in fully-specialized builds.
Most power attacks can crit. Crit is scalable with gear, via Precision. Critical hits do bonus damage. It’s scalable with gear, via Prowess.

I mean, compare that to say, healing effects. You got Compassion, and that’s it. Even conditions only got Malice and Expertise, and the latter is very rare on gear.

Is this reason to add more Expertise and invent another stat for healing? Hell no, those two scale quite ok. In fact conditions already scale too well with +duration, so it’s good that it’s so rare.
What needs a look at is power-scaling in general. Why do three stats affect those attacks, all of which scale linearly with themselves and compound each other? Why is there gear giving exactly those three stats? Why do so many attacks scale with them in the first place?

Heinel.6548:

Arewn.2368:

Heinel.6548:

If it’s only about power scaling, that is due to the promise that the classes are supposed to all be capable of self sustenance with well rounded abilities and that the system will not allow you to create a build too lopsided to function (unlike gw1). It’s a design decision.

I struggle to see how the poor scaling on Scepter supports that design choice, if anything it works against it. Currently, by building power and choosing Scepter as a weapon you are making a build that is “lopsided”: it functions poorly and is not self sufficient. On the other hand they have the potential of increasing build diversity and getting rid of that lopsided choice if they increase the power scaling on scepter to an acceptable level. Such balance tweaking would need to be carefully done so as to not make certain builds (such as hybrid builds) over powered, but given the current state of affairs they have a lot of buffing to do before reaching that point.

This is not the correct way to view the situation.

If power scaling were to increase, then power will grant a benefit greater than other stat combinations, this will force everyone to roll high power builds.

A similar argument to yours was made about healing power in the guardian forums. The answer to it was the same—if healing power was boosted, then everyone will roll bunker builds to troll the cap circles. The game is balanced around each character being capable of applying damage as well as self sustain together with the same build. You will always need both and while you can favor one stat over another, it will never be like trinity games where you can completely specialize into one to the detriment to the other.

===

If it is as I suspected and you just simply want a scepter rework because you have already chosen power as your stat of choice and cannot fit the scepter into your build (in other words your argument isn’t about stats), then I will again direct you to existing scepter rework threads.

I’ve been seeing suggestions for MH pistol lately, for it would fill that “1handed ranged power weapon” place that a number of Mesmers currently want Scepter to be revamped to fill. I agree with that and would like to see pistol fill that role. So no, as stated and demonstrated, my point in this thread is not a guised “revamp scepter lul”.

Your explanation covers some good points, but it still does not satisfy me. You mention that if power scaling is increased it would essentially become the dominant build do to power’s synergy with other stats (crits), but not only would that not necessarily be the case (building conditions leaves you open to building defense for example, it has it’s own place) it also is not what I’m desiring. The reality of the mater is that nobody uses power scepter right now because it sucks, power grants a lesser benefit than other stats and as such isn’t used. More to the point, it is so sub-par that it isn’t even viable (as opposed to be optimal). What I’m suggesting is that it is buffed (the scaling is increased) only to a point where it is on-par (or at least in the same ballpark as) other stats.

Carighan.6758:

Fair point actually.

Realistically, power-scaling is too high throughout the game. Especially in fully-specialized builds.
Most power attacks can crit. Crit is scalable with gear, via Precision. Critical hits do bonus damage. It’s scalable with gear, via Prowess.

I mean, compare that to say, healing effects. You got Compassion, and that’s it. Even conditions only got Malice and Expertise, and the latter is very rare on gear.

Is this reason to add more Expertise and invent another stat for healing? Hell no, those two scale quite ok. In fact conditions already scale too well with +duration, so it’s good that it’s so rare.
What needs a look at is power-scaling in general. Why do three stats affect those attacks, all of which scale linearly with themselves and compound each other? Why is there gear giving exactly those three stats? Why do so many attacks scale with them in the first place?

Power (direct damage) and Conditions fill different roles and lend themselves to different playstyles. While you can say that direct damage (DD) has higher damage potential then condition damage (ConD) thanks to the synergy between the 3 direct damage stats (power, crit% and crit dmg), you can also say that ConD hits it’s potential faster which allows you to build other stats (defense, healing, or hybrid glass).
Because of this difference in roles and playstyles, I would actually like to see ALL weapons get a DD vs ConD choice. I feel they should remove damaging conditions from weapon abilities all together (effectively making everything a power weapon), but then introduce traits which modify weapon abilities to make them inflict damaging conditions.
For example, picture a mesmer trait which causes greatsword to have a chance to inflict burning on hit, and makes Mind Stab inflict torment.
Not only would this increase the diversity of weapons, it would also help make the trait system into what it was always supposed to be: a way to reinforce and customize your playstyle.

Arewn.2368:

What I’m suggesting is that it is buffed (the scaling is increased) only to a point where it is on-par (or at least in the same ballpark as) other stats.

So in other words, you simply want scepter #1’s damage increased. That’s actually a smaller change than what everyone else is asking for, and most definitely should be in the scepter revamp thread as one of the suggestions.

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Also, do note that condition damage also has 3 stats. Condition damage, Condition Duration, and Critical chance. Most classes that has a condi build also has crit proc condition traits.

Heinel.6548:

Arewn.2368:

What I’m suggesting is that it is buffed (the scaling is increased) only to a point where it is on-par (or at least in the same ballpark as) other stats.

So in other words, you simply want scepter #1’s damage increased. That’s actually a smaller change than what everyone else is asking for, and most definitely should be in the scepter revamp thread as one of the suggestions.

===

Also, do note that condition damage also has 3 stats. Condition damage, Condition Duration, and Critical chance. Most classes that has a condi build also has crit proc condition traits.

When you put it that way it makes my posts seem incredibly convoluted xD Though perhaps they were.
But yes, that’s pretty well it.

And true enough about crit chance and duration contributing to condition builds, they don’t quiet have the same synergy as the DD stats though.