Guild Wars 2

The mesmer is clearly OP in the condition build department.

The mesmer has a tremendous advantage when it comes to passive play. A mesmer can stay invulnerable to all damage for over 10 seconds while popping clones and creating new ones because of passive traits. This gives the mesmer an unlimited supply of condi application that can only be stalemate against DH and druids.

This new build that is floating around gives the mesmer heavy sustain, burst, and bunker all into one package . That’s not cool.

Ive said it before, passive play ruins skillful play. How hard is it to use both Chronophantasma and IR together with continuum shift and shatter while blocking and evading.

Honestly its worse than DH trap builds. At least DH trap builds can be handled by using stab and staying at ranged. A mesmer can just use shield 5 and 4 while 10 stacks of torment , confuse , and bleeding gets applied to you over and over again.

Bring condi cleanse???? who doesnt bring condi cleanse? the problem with condi cleanse is the average 30 second cooldowns.

You understand those conditions are only applied when you get hit with shatters. You can kill clones dodge pop your own evades. That trait lets Mesmer have more clones in order not to be tied to the dueling line.

ICD is a cheap way to make things unusable and will make traits even more passive to play with. Let’s be honest, who can have an inner clock that keep track of all the ICDs going on in the game

OP is clearly someone who never plays mesmer and act like a crybaby and then start random accusation. There are countless better suggestions of how to shave current meta condie build than OP’s trash suggestion in this subforum already.

Who worries about bleed anyway? Dodge the shatters, block them, cleanse the confusion and torment. Easy.
No idea what class you play but anything unblockable hoes through the shield and if you have fear break/interupt the channel messes up the tempo of the Mesmer plenty of counter play if you take the time to l2p

OP Mesmer condition application? Absolutely not. Mesmer is not brought for its dps. Almost all of the condition damage is tied to shatters. If you can dodge a power shatter, you can dodge a hybrid shatter. If you dodge a shatter, conditions will not be applied.

Loads of passive play? As someone who plays more than one class I can assure you that Mesmer has possibly the least access to passive traits.

Stay invulnerable for 10 seconds? I suppose you could do nothing but chain distortion with SoI and CS but that achieves nothing and is highly unlikely to happen due to various illusion upkeep deficiencies.

Unlimited supply of condies? I don’t even know what this means. Conditions are tied to skill use. They don’t just ‘happen’.

Heavy sustain, burst and bunker? Nope. It is a relatively well rounded build that does well in 1v1s but suffers in larger teams fights. It is chosen because of past ESL changes to prevent stacking and Chrono was the next best choice because of map control and eventually the strength of a low CD Moa with F5. The current meta Chrono is optimised to sustain enough to provide utlity but it’s certainly not there to bunker a point or offer the main source of burst for a team.

How is shield applying bleeding to you?

I just want to have some fun as I hope to make a simple point, so please bear with a little foolishness (namely some sarcasm).

Good people, you do realize that as a condition build, conditions are designed to kill your enemy. So eventually, conditions are supposed to deplete your health beyond recovery. Its counterpart, a dps build, damages an enemy – not having to stack your dps is really quite beneficial to overcoming your opponent and is far more expedient. Not so with conditions, you do have to constantly stack them and the higher the stack(s), the better your odds of defeating you foe becomes of course. Since dps doesn’t have to stack repeatedly, should condi Mesmers get more heals then or some other equivalent because dps is, well, so damaging and instantly so?

What that really means for a condi Mesmer, is you have to get your clones to hit repeatedly in concert with some weapons skills. Clone reproduction does have its limits (even with IR and Chronophantasma), but eventually they are suppose to stack condis in order to eliminate your enemy. Being glassy, and not taking any cleansing is really quite desirable from a Mesmer’s perspective. Better yet, standing there and doing nothing makes that so much easier to kill your enemy because this will take the trouble out of having to Moa someone (possibly twice, never can tell when that 1st one will hit a wayward block or aegis or something) to get a kill. BTW, Mesmers are still supposed to be able to take down an enemy, right?

Condition build is OP so let’s nerf traits that only indirectly affect condition application with zero thought on how that might affect power-based chrono builds.

It’s balance ideas like this that butcher build diversity.

To be fair, as a mesmer main, I don’t really like illusionary reversion + CP. Having both just promotes shatter spam. One of the reasons why signet of illusion was rarely used before but is now meta is that you never had that many clones and therefore you didn’t use shatters so often.

I think CP should stay intact because it potentially allows phantasm mesmer to shatter (in particular in PvE) which is great and a nice band-aid to our stupid class mechanics.

I am not sure about iRev. I still think (and have been suggesting it since the beta week-ends) that iRev and CP should compete with each other. They are really only OP if together.

I find this shatter spam build so boring I have stopped playing mesmer and now focus on my reaper.

Silverkey.2078:

To be fair, as a mesmer main, I don’t really like illusionary reversion + CP. Having both just promotes shatter spam. One of the reasons why signet of illusion was rarely used before but is now meta is that you never had that many clones and therefore you didn’t use shatters so often.

I think CP should stay intact because it potentially allows phantasm mesmer to shatter (in particular in PvE) which is great and a nice band-aid to our stupid class mechanics.

I am not sure about iRev. I still think (and have been suggesting it since the beta week-ends) that iRev and CP should compete with each other. They are really only OP if together.

I find this shatter spam build so boring I have stopped playing mesmer and now focus on my reaper.

iRev requires you to have two illusions up. Chronophantasm requires you to use phantasm skills(mostly long cd and long cast time). They are fine as they are.

What makes it strong is the synergy between shield 4 and persistence memory. Shield 4 is the only skill that can dish out two phantasms in a row while still giving long duration of block. You get double the benefit from the traits and can get the phantasm train rolling.

If they shave off a bit of shield skill and increase CS CD, this build is pretty much in-line already. The only significant damage source from this build is shattering clones. The main damage skills are F1 and F2 which means you try to avoid 3 shatters every 20 sec. I don’t know why that is considered difficult by anyone.

denis.9487:

You understand those conditions are only applied when you get hit with shatters. You can kill clones dodge pop your own evades. That trait lets Mesmer have more clones in order not to be tied to the dueling line.

Killing clones is not even an option anymore. SoI SoI cough cough*

Even if it was, this is a very hard thing to do in a real match. Very hard..

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

You understand those conditions are only applied when you get hit with shatters. You can kill clones dodge pop your own evades. That trait lets Mesmer have more clones in order not to be tied to the dueling line.

Killing clones is not even an option anymore. SoI SoI cough cough*

Even if it was, this is a very hard thing to do in a real match. Very hard..

If this isnt a viable plan then why remove the on death traits?? I mean sure actually targeting a clone might be annoying but plenty of aoe and cleave. And really saying sol has any bearing is grasping at straws. Sure the clones went from 1 ply tissue to 2 ply.

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

You understand those conditions are only applied when you get hit with shatters. You can kill clones dodge pop your own evades. That trait lets Mesmer have more clones in order not to be tied to the dueling line.

Killing clones is not even an option anymore. SoI SoI cough cough*

Even if it was, this is a very hard thing to do in a real match. Very hard..

If this isnt a viable plan then why remove the on death traits?? I mean sure actually targeting a clone might be annoying but plenty of aoe and cleave. And really saying sol has any bearing is grasping at straws. Sure the clones went from 1 ply tissue to 2 ply.

Uhmm because we can trigger on death traits even if they don’t kill our clones?

SoI and Mercernary amy?

Anyway, 1v1 this could be a feasible counter to mesmer, teamfight? Hard.

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

You understand those conditions are only applied when you get hit with shatters. You can kill clones dodge pop your own evades. That trait lets Mesmer have more clones in order not to be tied to the dueling line.

Killing clones is not even an option anymore. SoI SoI cough cough*

Even if it was, this is a very hard thing to do in a real match. Very hard..

If this isnt a viable plan then why remove the on death traits?? I mean sure actually targeting a clone might be annoying but plenty of aoe and cleave. And really saying sol has any bearing is grasping at straws. Sure the clones went from 1 ply tissue to 2 ply.

Uhmm because we can trigger on death traits even if they don’t kill our clones?

SoI and Mercernary amy?

Anyway, 1v1 this could be a feasible counter to mesmer, teamfight? Hard.

The more people the more cleave and aoe. Not really that difficult. Why it is difficult to land any more than you and a clone shatter normally. Those fights on points destroy our resources.

Any chrono relying on distortion and CS cannot be a bunker. If the point gets decapped/capped out from under you, you failed as a bunker.

The “burst” doesnt really compare to what’s classically been meant when the term is used. The chrono build can apply and reapply some nice torment and confusion though. However it can be avoided, and cleansed. What is true of a condi chrono is that there’s some nice reapplication, if you take your time and don’t blow your load. That advice can serve you in other areas of life too.

As for heavy sustain? Someone already said, the build has what it needs to survive so that it can do its supporting job. Really though, the chrono build has various weaknesses, and can be burst down by a couple of good players.

I apologize for Mesmer requiring competence to defeat

Ross Biddle.2367:

Any chrono relying on distortion and CS cannot be a bunker. If the point gets decapped/capped out from under you, you failed as a bunker.

The “burst” doesnt really compare to what’s classically been meant when the term is used. The chrono build can apply and reapply some nice torment and confusion though. However it can be avoided, and cleansed. What is true of a condi chrono is that there’s some nice reapplication, if you take your time and don’t blow your load. That advice can serve you in other areas of life too.

As for heavy sustain? Someone already said, the build has what it needs to survive so that it can do its supporting job. Really though, the chrono build has various weaknesses, and can be burst down by a couple of good players.

I apologize for Mesmer requiring competence to defeat

Care to name those weaknesses?

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Any chrono relying on distortion and CS cannot be a bunker. If the point gets decapped/capped out from under you, you failed as a bunker.

The “burst” doesnt really compare to what’s classically been meant when the term is used. The chrono build can apply and reapply some nice torment and confusion though. However it can be avoided, and cleansed. What is true of a condi chrono is that there’s some nice reapplication, if you take your time and don’t blow your load. That advice can serve you in other areas of life too.

As for heavy sustain? Someone already said, the build has what it needs to survive so that it can do its supporting job. Really though, the chrono build has various weaknesses, and can be burst down by a couple of good players.

I apologize for Mesmer requiring competence to defeat :(

Care to name those weaknesses?

• The Chrono build has no boon strip, so resistance is the #1 counter, given most of it’s damage comes from either a condi “burst” or the constant reapplication of confusion/torment.

• The chrono has a single stun break and is incredibly susceptible to CC. This gives an opportunist approach to defeat for anyone bringing heavy CC and burst (not condi, as cleansing is so easy for Chrono, even under stunlock). At the very least, you can force the Chrono right off point using that blink to reset.

• This is usually the point people bring up staff 2 as the psuedo “stun break”, but it’s not, and an appropriately pressured chrono is going to have to swap out of staff, or give up the point (assuming you haven’t locked him down anyway.)

• That leaves sword/shield, and as good as those shield blocks are, blocks are also easily countered with unblockables.

• Yes Chrono has distortion, and cs (both forfeit the point cap), but the build has zero stability (again, susceptible to CC/interrupts). Both Moa and SoL have lengthy cast times, easily interruptible unless they draw from other mitigating sources (such as distortion). These are simply opportunities upon opportunities.

• Forgot to add: No stealth. Cannot drop target. Minor considering the build makes up for it in other ways, but this is huge for ranged pressure. Oh and that reminds me, has the classic mesmer weakness against good ranged pressure XD

But let’s be fair to our broader playerbase.

• 1. They’re not running the right classes/builds. Power lockdown? That’s a tall order for most people even without facing this chrono.

• 2. Lockdown/interrupt gameplay? That’s high end. That’s like a few of us long standing high end mesmer/warrior/thief player stuff, and quite frankly seems to be well out of reach of not only the cast majority, but even the comprehensive playstyles of pros (i.e. players who are good, but good in different ways).

Still, the weaknesses are there! :D Look deep within your heart Stickers, you know this much is true.

ICD is a cheap/lazy/bandaid solution that would make those traits really clunky and so I firmly disagree to it. If a player wants to blow all their shatter cooldowns in sequence to spike damage or Condi application, they should be allowed to – because the shatter cooldowns themselves limit this burst.

The interaction which should be looked at is Shield 4/Persistence of Memory/Mental Defence/Chronohantasma.

Those four traits together allow for insane back to back phantasm generation and chain shatters as well as having an extremely low cooldown due to synergy.

However now try playing something like Sword/Pistol + Greatsword and then use iReversion, Persistence of Memory, Mental Defence and Chronophantasma… you should notice that those traits are NOT overpowered with any weapon combination other than Shield. In fact they are perfectly fine. iReversion requires two illusions as it is.

So I firmly believe neither Chronophantasma, iReversion, or Mental Defence need to be touched – they should be left alone unless a huge trait rework is done on mesmer and every single class (which I doubt will happen any time soon).

No instead what should be looked at is Shield 4 – it is the only "phantasm"skill with a fantastic active effect and the ability to spawn two phantasms (three including the idefender) benefitting from cooldown synergy from several traits, allowing it to cool down so fast that you can generate a rapid supply of phantasms. Which in turn also allows effortless proccing of iReversion.

Either Shield 4 needs to.be limited to one single phantasm (remove the spawn on Deja Vu) or something else needs to be done to balance that weapon.

Unless every single other phantasm skill on every other weapon gets a similar active effect, then those traits should not be touched.

Any nerfs to Chronophantasma, iReversion, Persistence of Memory or Mental Defence will only force more people to use Shield because other weapons will be made much weaker. I personally do not want to be forced to have to play Shield…

Edit – as a side not to the OPs comments about “passive play” – barely anything on mesmer is passive. I wish people would think before throwing out the word passive at anything they don’t like… even Shield has to actively block in order to gain access to Deja Vu.

another one of those ppl who dodge “away” from then shatter clones the run in circles spamming 1 raging on the mes forum again. #roflmao

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Any chrono relying on distortion and CS cannot be a bunker. If the point gets decapped/capped out from under you, you failed as a bunker.

The “burst” doesnt really compare to what’s classically been meant when the term is used. The chrono build can apply and reapply some nice torment and confusion though. However it can be avoided, and cleansed. What is true of a condi chrono is that there’s some nice reapplication, if you take your time and don’t blow your load. That advice can serve you in other areas of life too.

As for heavy sustain? Someone already said, the build has what it needs to survive so that it can do its supporting job. Really though, the chrono build has various weaknesses, and can be burst down by a couple of good players.

I apologize for Mesmer requiring competence to defeat

Care to name those weaknesses?

• The Chrono build has no boon strip, so resistance is the #1 counter, given most of it’s damage comes from either a condi “burst” or the constant reapplication of confusion/torment.

• The chrono has a single stun break and is incredibly susceptible to CC. This gives an opportunist approach to defeat for anyone bringing heavy CC and burst (not condi, as cleansing is so easy for Chrono, even under stunlock). At the very least, you can force the Chrono right off point using that blink to reset.

• This is usually the point people bring up staff 2 as the psuedo “stun break”, but it’s not, and an appropriately pressured chrono is going to have to swap out of staff, or give up the point (assuming you haven’t locked him down anyway.)

• That leaves sword/shield, and as good as those shield blocks are, blocks are also easily countered with unblockables.

• Yes Chrono has distortion, and cs (both forfeit the point cap), but the build has zero stability (again, susceptible to CC/interrupts). Both Moa and SoL have lengthy cast times, easily interruptible unless they draw from other mitigating sources (such as distortion). These are simply opportunities upon opportunities.

• Forgot to add: No stealth. Cannot drop target. Minor considering the build makes up for it in other ways, but this is huge for ranged pressure. Oh and that reminds me, has the classic mesmer weakness against good ranged pressure XD

But let’s be fair to our broader playerbase.

• 1. They’re not running the right classes/builds. Power lockdown? That’s a tall order for most people even without facing this chrono.

• 2. Lockdown/interrupt gameplay? That’s high end. That’s like a few of us long standing high end mesmer/warrior/thief player stuff, and quite frankly seems to be well out of reach of not only the cast majority, but even the comprehensive playstyles of pros (i.e. players who are good, but good in different ways).

Still, the weaknesses are there! Look deep within your heart Stickers, you know this much is true.

1.) how many classes have access to reliable resistance? Ranger 0, Ele 0, Guardian 0, Thief 0

2.) CC could work, but only if you get past that double distortion.

3.) Unblockables? Everyone needs to build around unblockables so far, except maybe for select skills. Warrior needs to trait for it, so does necro, traps? maybe, but no one runs traps, etc. Could be a possibility if classes have this option. But even if you break through, that is considered an attack so block is usable again no?

Ranged pressure? 2 blocks, masterful reflection, evades.

Again not saying OP or what not, this is such an uphill battle (always talking about the meta build, this is where the qq comes from)

Let’s look at the strengths too of the meta build:

1.) Tanky/Sustain mental defence + toughness + blocks + distorts + ports + evades + Restorative Illusions

2.) Damage: High Condition Application + Direct Damage through shatters

3.) CC: Shield 5 , Moa, F3, CS. All AoE.

But this is still doable with only those.

Now Let’s add C-split and Signet of Illusions. This matchup now becomes a nightmare

not to mention Illu reversion, Illu celerity, Alacrity, Chronophantasma Persistence of Memory all stack/work together.

I think SoI is very strong on chrono.

I do not know about you guys but I think I can only have a chance of beating a high MMR/skill mesmer at around 30%. (in a real match, not using dueling builds)

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Any chrono relying on distortion and CS cannot be a bunker. If the point gets decapped/capped out from under you, you failed as a bunker.

The “burst” doesnt really compare to what’s classically been meant when the term is used. The chrono build can apply and reapply some nice torment and confusion though. However it can be avoided, and cleansed. What is true of a condi chrono is that there’s some nice reapplication, if you take your time and don’t blow your load. That advice can serve you in other areas of life too.

As for heavy sustain? Someone already said, the build has what it needs to survive so that it can do its supporting job. Really though, the chrono build has various weaknesses, and can be burst down by a couple of good players.

I apologize for Mesmer requiring competence to defeat

Care to name those weaknesses?

• The Chrono build has no boon strip, so resistance is the #1 counter, given most of it’s damage comes from either a condi “burst” or the constant reapplication of confusion/torment.

• The chrono has a single stun break and is incredibly susceptible to CC. This gives an opportunist approach to defeat for anyone bringing heavy CC and burst (not condi, as cleansing is so easy for Chrono, even under stunlock). At the very least, you can force the Chrono right off point using that blink to reset.

• This is usually the point people bring up staff 2 as the psuedo “stun break”, but it’s not, and an appropriately pressured chrono is going to have to swap out of staff, or give up the point (assuming you haven’t locked him down anyway.)

• That leaves sword/shield, and as good as those shield blocks are, blocks are also easily countered with unblockables.

• Yes Chrono has distortion, and cs (both forfeit the point cap), but the build has zero stability (again, susceptible to CC/interrupts). Both Moa and SoL have lengthy cast times, easily interruptible unless they draw from other mitigating sources (such as distortion). These are simply opportunities upon opportunities.

• Forgot to add: No stealth. Cannot drop target. Minor considering the build makes up for it in other ways, but this is huge for ranged pressure. Oh and that reminds me, has the classic mesmer weakness against good ranged pressure XD

But let’s be fair to our broader playerbase.

• 1. They’re not running the right classes/builds. Power lockdown? That’s a tall order for most people even without facing this chrono.

• 2. Lockdown/interrupt gameplay? That’s high end. That’s like a few of us long standing high end mesmer/warrior/thief player stuff, and quite frankly seems to be well out of reach of not only the cast majority, but even the comprehensive playstyles of pros (i.e. players who are good, but good in different ways).

Still, the weaknesses are there! Look deep within your heart Stickers, you know this much is true.

1.) how many classes have access to reliable resistance? Ranger 0, Ele 0, Guardian 0, Thief 0

2.) CC could work, but only if you get past that double distortion.

3.) Unblockables? Everyone needs to build around unblockables so far, except maybe for select skills. Warrior needs to trait for it, so does necro, traps? maybe, but no one runs traps, etc. Could be a possibility if classes have this option. But even if you break through, that is considered an attack so block is usable again no?

Ranged pressure? 2 blocks, masterful reflection, evades.

Again not saying OP or what not, this is such an uphill battle (always talking about the meta build, this is where the qq comes from)

Let’s look at the strengths too of the meta build:

1.) Tanky/Sustain mental defence + toughness + blocks + distorts + ports + evades + Restorative Illusions

2.) Damage: High Condition Application + Direct Damage through shatters

3.) CC: Shield 5 , Moa, F3, CS. All AoE.

But this is still doable with only those.

Now Let’s add C-split and Signet of Illusions. This matchup now becomes a nightmare

not to mention Illu reversion, Illu celerity, Alacrity, Chronophantasma Persistence of Memory all stack/work together.

I think SoI is very strong on chrono.

I do not know about you guys but I think I can only have a chance of beating a high MMR/skill mesmer at around 30%. (in a real match, not using dueling builds)

Bingo, the fight isnt a given, and the chrono isnt going to just roll over and die. If that were the case then the pendulum would have swung far back in the other direction and we’d be facing the other common problem mesmer has always faced (irrelevance). Viability isn’t a crime, despite popular belief XD. The point is that it is beatable, or rather the team with which it’s on is beatable in conquest (its still all about the point capture at the end of the day). This is unlike other classes/comps in the past who’ve been indomitable in the fight, and on the point.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

The mesmer is clearly OP in the condition build department.

Clearly!
Just yesterday, all raid bosses were farmed by this 10 condi chrono squad and they killed the bosses so fast the conditions didn’t even have time tick!

Why?
Well good thing you ask, because their Phantasmal Warden respawned. Once.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Viability isn’t a crime, despite popular belief XD.

But necessity is, how many pro teams played a chrono? If the answer is a few teams slotted them in as an option you have nothing to worry about.

If the answer is every team had a chronophantasma then you have problems. This goes for all classes, not just mesmer.

There needs to be class and build diversity within the format no? Who wants to watch the same classes with the exact same spec/amulet every match on each side?

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Any chrono relying on distortion and CS cannot be a bunker. If the point gets decapped/capped out from under you, you failed as a bunker.

The “burst” doesnt really compare to what’s classically been meant when the term is used. The chrono build can apply and reapply some nice torment and confusion though. However it can be avoided, and cleansed. What is true of a condi chrono is that there’s some nice reapplication, if you take your time and don’t blow your load. That advice can serve you in other areas of life too.

As for heavy sustain? Someone already said, the build has what it needs to survive so that it can do its supporting job. Really though, the chrono build has various weaknesses, and can be burst down by a couple of good players.

I apologize for Mesmer requiring competence to defeat

Care to name those weaknesses?

• The Chrono build has no boon strip, so resistance is the #1 counter, given most of it’s damage comes from either a condi “burst” or the constant reapplication of confusion/torment.

• The chrono has a single stun break and is incredibly susceptible to CC. This gives an opportunist approach to defeat for anyone bringing heavy CC and burst (not condi, as cleansing is so easy for Chrono, even under stunlock). At the very least, you can force the Chrono right off point using that blink to reset.

• This is usually the point people bring up staff 2 as the psuedo “stun break”, but it’s not, and an appropriately pressured chrono is going to have to swap out of staff, or give up the point (assuming you haven’t locked him down anyway.)

• That leaves sword/shield, and as good as those shield blocks are, blocks are also easily countered with unblockables.

• Yes Chrono has distortion, and cs (both forfeit the point cap), but the build has zero stability (again, susceptible to CC/interrupts). Both Moa and SoL have lengthy cast times, easily interruptible unless they draw from other mitigating sources (such as distortion). These are simply opportunities upon opportunities.

• Forgot to add: No stealth. Cannot drop target. Minor considering the build makes up for it in other ways, but this is huge for ranged pressure. Oh and that reminds me, has the classic mesmer weakness against good ranged pressure XD

But let’s be fair to our broader playerbase.

• 1. They’re not running the right classes/builds. Power lockdown? That’s a tall order for most people even without facing this chrono.

• 2. Lockdown/interrupt gameplay? That’s high end. That’s like a few of us long standing high end mesmer/warrior/thief player stuff, and quite frankly seems to be well out of reach of not only the cast majority, but even the comprehensive playstyles of pros (i.e. players who are good, but good in different ways).

Still, the weaknesses are there! Look deep within your heart Stickers, you know this much is true.

1.) how many classes have access to reliable resistance? Ranger 0, Ele 0, Guardian 0, Thief 0

2.) CC could work, but only if you get past that double distortion.

3.) Unblockables? Everyone needs to build around unblockables so far, except maybe for select skills. Warrior needs to trait for it, so does necro, traps? maybe, but no one runs traps, etc. Could be a possibility if classes have this option. But even if you break through, that is considered an attack so block is usable again no?

Ranged pressure? 2 blocks, masterful reflection, evades.

Again not saying OP or what not, this is such an uphill battle (always talking about the meta build, this is where the qq comes from)

Let’s look at the strengths too of the meta build:

1.) Tanky/Sustain mental defence + toughness + blocks + distorts + ports + evades + Restorative Illusions

2.) Damage: High Condition Application + Direct Damage through shatters

3.) CC: Shield 5 , Moa, F3, CS. All AoE.

But this is still doable with only those.

Now Let’s add C-split and Signet of Illusions. This matchup now becomes a nightmare

not to mention Illu reversion, Illu celerity, Alacrity, Chronophantasma Persistence of Memory all stack/work together.

I think SoI is very strong on chrono.

I do not know about you guys but I think I can only have a chance of beating a high MMR/skill mesmer at around 30%. (in a real match, not using dueling builds)

Bingo, the fight isnt a given, and the chrono isnt going to just roll over and die. If that were the case then the pendulum would have swung far back in the other direction and we’d be facing the other common problem mesmer has always faced (irrelevance). Viability isn’t a crime, despite popular belief XD. The point is that it is beatable, or rather the team with which it’s on is beatable in conquest (its still all about the point capture at the end of the day). This is unlike other classes/comps in the past who’ve been indomitable in the fight, and on the point.

its been said before in other posts, you say unless you use a dueling build designed for 1v1 you only have a 30% win rate, but your forgetting that the mesmer meta is a dueling 1v1 build. its use in a team fight is sub par compared to other classes/specs.

the matter of versatility is simply proof on how useless in other specs the mesmer is given the current state of affairs. not to say you cant play in a different spec or style but it goes without saying that by doing so you are faced with a plethora of issues that cause them to in most cases be ineffective.

condi application of mesmer is less than some other classes and on top of that its heavily reliant on clones and therefore less reliable. the direct damage low with no crit or ferocity and then counting for staff and scepter low damage, scep 3 was buffed a bit only to reinforce how scep had low phy dmg. going on to the fact that a bunch of traits mentioned when listing the mesmer defenses arent used together due to not having ALL of the trait tree to choose from.

there is no point at all putting an icd on these traits. instead of making threads from mindless cabbage ideas, while clearly not knowing what your on about, you could spend the time to learn how to fight them. every class has the necessary utilities and skills to beat them.

the short of it all is this build is mesmer’s answer to the meta. so you either need to adjust your play style to deal with it and thus fix the l2p issue or have a team who can answer it for you. since op says the build has burst id say the former is needed to be done.

Chorazin.4107:

There needs to be class and build diversity within the format no?

If the format is 5v5 in a game with a few thousand effective classes and 9 design classes, then no, there doens’t need to be. Anything but someone being top at any given point is absolutely utopian and not worth wasting dev time on, honestly.

What you can do (as a dev) is intentionally swap out who is top and who is bottom every so often, and try not let the spread get too big. That is, a good rule of thumb is that getting jumped trumps class balance for burst high DPS setups. If it does, then your burst DPS is – mostly – fine. You’ll still have a best and a worst, and usually a fairly large margin. But is ok, the class balance isn’t the biggest deciding factor, so there’s that.

But really, you cannot balance a mode as tiny as this. Not given the underlying game design.

Chorazin.4107:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Viability isn’t a crime, despite popular belief XD.

But necessity is, how many pro teams played a chrono? If the answer is a few teams slotted them in as an option you have nothing to worry about.

If the answer is every team had a chronophantasma then you have problems. This goes for all classes, not just mesmer.

There needs to be class and build diversity within the format no? Who wants to watch the same classes with the exact same spec/amulet every match on each side?

The problem with this is that it has absolutely ZERO to do with the current Condie meta, but rather it’s Portal & Moa that gets them that slot.

Aside from that, your logic is completely silly. It means we should nerf every other class in the meta, simply for being in the meta, and quite frankly they’re ALL in line before Mesmers, because we just ate a round of nerfs that destroyed our last two meta builds. One for each season. I guess that makes sense to a Mesmer hater, to obliterate one viable Mesmer build every season?

This whole thread is silly. The condition output of Mesmer is not really any better now than it has been for many months, even post HoT. I quite venture to say before the MtD nerf it was actually stronger even pre-HoT, and of course since HoT no one complained about basically the exact same Condition pressure potential until both Power Shatter and Bunker were nerfed out of existence.

Now that you tools have run out of things to complain about, and your usual pleas for nerfing Moa and Portal continue to fall on deaf ears, you pick a new target: Condition Shatter! lol!

Let’s just delete Mesmers so you can enjoy the game more!

Lamers…

Mesmers is fragile as it is.. if you add ICD, it will brake it & be back at square one.

Chorazin.4107:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Viability isn’t a crime, despite popular belief XD.

But necessity is, how many pro teams played a chrono? If the answer is a few teams slotted them in as an option you have nothing to worry about.

If the answer is every team had a chronophantasma then you have problems. This goes for all classes, not just mesmer.

There needs to be class and build diversity within the format no? Who wants to watch the same classes with the exact same spec/amulet every match on each side?

You’re right, there does need to be build diversity.
However, wouldn’t it make sense to buff the underperforming classes and builds(cause lets be honest power shatter is meh atm.) and in doing so make the other classes perform on a level playing field rather nerfing everything? Because that’s what happens, when something works just a tad too well Anet nerfs anything and everything related to it regardless of other builds it may affect.
I’ve said it again and I’ll say it now, Anet should work towards having not only seperate balance teams for PvP and PvE but aim to have a minimum of 3 builds that are viable on a tourney level. It’s possible, would be a lot of work and require a test server, but then you could have a power, condi, and support build for each class that suits everyone’s playstyle and depending on the team comp could potentially win or lose the match.

Windwalker.7421:

The problem with this is that it has absolutely ZERO to do with the current Condie meta, but rather it’s Portal & Moa that gets them that slot.

Aside from that, your logic is completely silly. It means we should nerf every other class in the meta, simply for being in the meta, and quite frankly they’re ALL in line before Mesmers, because we just ate a round of nerfs that destroyed our last two meta builds. One for each season. I guess that makes sense to a Mesmer hater, to obliterate one viable Mesmer build every season?

This whole thread is silly. The condition output of Mesmer is not really any better now than it has been for many months, even post HoT. I quite venture to say before the MtD nerf it was actually stronger even pre-HoT, and of course since HoT no one complained about basically the exact same Condition pressure potential until both Power Shatter and Bunker were nerfed out of existence.

Now that you tools have run out of things to complain about, and your usual pleas for nerfing Moa and Portal continue to fall on deaf ears, you pick a new target: Condition Shatter! lol!

Let’s just delete Mesmers so you can enjoy the game more!

Lamers…

You are not reading what i said, all classes, not just the mesmer.

And for the record i have played a mesmer since release, doesnt mean i cant look objectively at something as i also play other classes. But clearly objectivity to you equates to ‘hater’.

Of course some of the meta classes still need shaving(mesmer included), the elites were way over tuned compared to the core classes and the recent patch shows not much has changed. Viability is fine, necessity is not.

Was power shatter nerfed out of existence or is it just that condie bombing is way too over tuned atm? You can look at it from both sides really, just buff power shatter rather than nerf condie shatter? Welcome to power creep, id much prefer scaling the elite specs back.

Its nice that PvP players are finally admitting that what they really want are for the classes to be different coloured cubes all hitting each other with the same auto attack.

Levetty.1279:

Its nice that PvP players are finally admitting that what they really want are for the classes to be different coloured cubes all hitting each other with the same auto attack.

It’s funny because PvE players are, themselves, different colored tubes hitting keys to prompt auto attacks XD

Ross Biddle.2367:

It’s funny because PvE players are, themselves, different colored tubes hitting keys to prompt auto attacks XD

Hrm, not a bad poke but really, the argument is valid. Class-based RPGs using classes in the classical sense (which GW2 does) means that each class needs strengths and weaknesses. The latter comes automatic, because anyone else is weaker in this field, but often is specifically enforced, for example a Warrior being inferior at long range combat is a common one.

PvP players usually want their games to be decided by player skill. Which is fair enough, but inherently doesn’t work in regards to classes because you cannot have these strengths or weaknesses without them impacting PvP combat. I mean you can try, but it’s utopian to assume any dev would actually succeed.

One way to handle this is how DAoC did it and what WvW tries to emulate:

• Individually, classes are not balanced.
• Combat is based on mass combat.
• Combat assumes all classes are present in the required numbers (this is why the previous point is important).
• When mixed together, even though the classes are imbalanced the entire force is balanced between realms A and B.

The latter point isn’t fulfilled by WvW (it instead opts for a mirror-matchup balance because we don’t have Albion/Midgard/Hibernia), but overall it seems to originally have been built for this type of balance. Which does work in class-based RPGs.

Likewise, mass-combat PvE can be balanced (in this case meaning versus the enemy strength) as long as we assume that the force is really big, but then GW2’s PvE is built around casual play so it is intentionally undertuned. Hence the whole discussion about it is a bit… superfluous.

Still, the important point remains: You cannot balance 5v5 with 9 classes and a few thousand actual classes (once you include traits / skills / gear). I mean sure you can, hypothetically, but it’s not going to happen. Why “waste” balance time looking at it instead of looking at WvW or PvE balance where something can be done?

Silverkey.2078:

To be fair, as a mesmer main, I don’t really like illusionary reversion + CP. Having both just promotes shatter spam. One of the reasons why signet of illusion was rarely used before but is now meta is that you never had that many clones and therefore you didn’t use shatters so often.

I think CP should stay intact because it potentially allows phantasm mesmer to shatter (in particular in PvE) which is great and a nice band-aid to our stupid class mechanics.

I am not sure about iRev. I still think (and have been suggesting it since the beta week-ends) that iRev and CP should compete with each other. They are really only OP if together.

I find this shatter spam build so boring I have stopped playing mesmer and now focus on my reaper.

this is the main reason why power shatter is so weak. only f1 does dmg. while in condi build all 3-4 of them do.
now if f2-f3 did dmg too you would see power meta build coming back again
and its easy to do so. just put a trait in dueling/illusion line which buff the dmg when you shatter

remember anet also want that player will use their shatters more often . so now it may seems spamm. maybe so with noob players. but to be able to know how many illusion is up and gonna be after you shatter and time your shatter at the right time need some skills…

also instead qq about mesmer and shout for nerf i didnt see any top player trying to build anti mesmer condi build

i can see warrior counter to mesmer in the future , also good ranger. and if you say moa 50% of the time you can kite out of it.

also every singly top match i watch every mesmer in group fight did in average (are you rdy?)

3 torment, 5 confusion and some low cover bleed and poison…. that is it!!!

in 1v1 or 2v2 its different story if the enemy didnt pressure the mesmer. in 1v1 it can go up to 15 stacks…..

so kitten funny. not long time ago every condi build i and other posted got banned cause ppl scream useless cause of condi cleanse …. nothing has change but the fact top player mesmer had to play condi build with mesmer…..

i am really open minded but hardly see any post here with good real fact of why this build is consider so strong in pvp (not 1v1) compare pre hot and post hot
(hint: players take less condi cleanse now)

messiah.1908:

also instead qq about mesmer and shout for nerf i didnt see any top player trying to build anti mesmer condi build

i can see warrior counter to mesmer in the future , also good ranger. and if you say moa 50% of the time you can kite out of it.

also every singly top match i watch every mesmer in group fight did in average (are you rdy?)

3 torment, 5 confusion and some low cover bleed and poison…. that is it!!!

in 1v1 or 2v2 its different story if the enemy didnt pressure the mesmer. in 1v1 it can go up to 15 stacks…..

so kitten funny. not long time ago every condi build i and other posted got banned cause ppl scream useless cause of condi cleanse …. nothing has change but the fact top player mesmer had to play condi build with mesmer…..

i am really open minded but hardly see any post here with good real fact of why this build is consider so strong in pvp (not 1v1) compare pre hot and post hot
(hint: players take less condi cleanse now)

Yup yup yup.

Pretty much to summarize the problem we’ve been seeing: This is grade A scrub mentality at work. People not playing to win.

Simple as that.

Ross Biddle.2367:

messiah.1908:

also instead qq about mesmer and shout for nerf i didnt see any top player trying to build anti mesmer condi build

i can see warrior counter to mesmer in the future , also good ranger. and if you say moa 50% of the time you can kite out of it.

also every singly top match i watch every mesmer in group fight did in average (are you rdy?)

3 torment, 5 confusion and some low cover bleed and poison…. that is it!!!

in 1v1 or 2v2 its different story if the enemy didnt pressure the mesmer. in 1v1 it can go up to 15 stacks…..

so kitten funny. not long time ago every condi build i and other posted got banned cause ppl scream useless cause of condi cleanse …. nothing has change but the fact top player mesmer had to play condi build with mesmer…..

i am really open minded but hardly see any post here with good real fact of why this build is consider so strong in pvp (not 1v1) compare pre hot and post hot
(hint: players take less condi cleanse now)

Yup yup yup.

Pretty much to summarize the problem we’ve been seeing: This is grade A scrub mentality at work. People not playing to win.

Simple as that.

Sorta depends on how you characterize “playing” doesn’kitten The PvPers are just playing the game on the forums better than we are, and it’ll probably result in them winning in the long run.

No, the condition set for IR is fine.

Chronophantasma has a delay upon the summoned phantasms.

This is also an issue due to being synergistic with condi shatter, being that all 4 shatters can apply pressure.

IF and I have to stress the “IF” since Condi has more than enough counter play built in. If condi is to be nerfed it should be by re balancing “Maim the Disillusioned” boosting it to two stacks per hit double duration (maybe 1.5) , and only working on “Mind Wrack” and “Cry of Frustration”. This gives more counter play and easier to clenase, while keeping a good amount of power.

This keeps in line line with how power shatter can only damage with two shatters as well.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

The mesmer is clearly OP in the condition build department.

The mesmer has a tremendous advantage when it comes to passive play. A mesmer can stay invulnerable to all damage for over 10 seconds while popping clones and creating new ones because of passive traits. This gives the mesmer an unlimited supply of condi application that can only be stalemate against DH and druids.

This new build that is floating around gives the mesmer heavy sustain, burst, and bunker all into one package . That’s not cool.

Ive said it before, passive play ruins skillful play. How hard is it to use both Chronophantasma and IR together with continuum shift and shatter while blocking and evading.

Honestly its worse than DH trap builds. At least DH trap builds can be handled by using stab and staying at ranged. A mesmer can just use shield 5 and 4 while 10 stacks of torment , confuse , and bleeding gets applied to you over and over again.

Bring condi cleanse???? who doesnt bring condi cleanse? the problem with condi cleanse is the average 30 second cooldowns.

But you want to nerf mesmer generally not only condi part witch will but power mesmer into eaven worse state…

When you say “its worse than DH traps” you instantly lose a lot of credibility considering DH is the worst SPvP class right now. I don’t disagree that something needs to be done with condi mes but suggesting ideas that hurts all mesmer builds, not just condi isn’t a good way to go about it.

I am against anything like this unless things are buffed in other departments like something TO MAKE POWER MES DECENT AGAIN. What you are suggesting will hurt the chrono trait-line overall (condi and power builds) and kill mesmer build diversity even more.

Condi Mesmer is bad enough as it is. Yes I know, roaming, sPvP, yadda yadda. Think in entire solutions, Confusion and Torment are already bad in PvE, don’t make things even worse for a class which cannot bring a condi spec for say, Vale Guardian.

Usually not needed, I know, but nerfing something already weak is pretty pointless.

If anything, change entire setups so it is less sPvP-specific.

The big problem players have with Condi Mes I think is getting loaded with condies and double Moa-ed. And a big part of that is a l2p issue though. If you can dodge the shatters and Moa, you’re doing great. 90% of these “Nerf this, QQ” threads are ppl who haven’t even tried to learn the build/profession/skill that is killing them. To the point of sounding quite foolish when they exaggerate, throw out crazy numbers or don’t even know what it is that is killing them. It’s really annoying lately.

Jace al Thor.6745:

Chorazin.4107:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Viability isn’t a crime, despite popular belief XD.

But necessity is, how many pro teams played a chrono? If the answer is a few teams slotted them in as an option you have nothing to worry about.

If the answer is every team had a chronophantasma then you have problems. This goes for all classes, not just mesmer.

There needs to be class and build diversity within the format no? Who wants to watch the same classes with the exact same spec/amulet every match on each side?

You’re right, there does need to be build diversity.
However, wouldn’t it make sense to buff the underperforming classes and builds(cause lets be honest power shatter is meh atm.) and in doing so make the other classes perform on a level playing field rather nerfing everything? Because that’s what happens, when something works just a tad too well Anet nerfs anything and everything related to it regardless of other builds it may affect.
I’ve said it again and I’ll say it now, Anet should work towards having not only seperate balance teams for PvP and PvE but aim to have a minimum of 3 builds that are viable on a tourney level. It’s possible, would be a lot of work and require a test server, but then you could have a power, condi, and support build for each class that suits everyone’s playstyle and depending on the team comp could potentially win or lose the match.

I wholeheartedly agree, but unfortunately anet has decided that their efforts should be better concerned with things such as the next expansion and the next living world season. Rather than fixing the already underlying problems that remain from their previous expansion. The two things that would greatly benefit pvp right now would be a separate balance from pve, and a separate TEAM from the pve balance team. So that the two wouldn’t mix interests.

Power mesmer though is in the works of making a comeback, especially with amulets such as demolisher that allow for “tanky” mesmers to still hit as hard as power shatter with marauder do. I personally found a rather enjoyable mantra mes build that seems to be quite effective. But, condi is still king atm so we can only hope for the best.

Jace al Thor.6745:

However, wouldn’t it make sense to buff the underperforming classes and builds(cause lets be honest power shatter is meh atm.) and in doing so make the other classes perform on a level playing field rather nerfing everything?

Theoretically the two are the same and buffing feels better (granted), but that ignores two very important points:

• PvE-balance. Class balance changes generally do not affect PvE enemies. I never checked but I don’t think a Risen’s Null Field is affected when mine is changed. This means if you continuously use a buff-always approach, PvE rapidly becomes (even) easier. Probably meaningless in the case of open world, but quite relevant for raids. This gives you a power baseline against which to operate, nerf what is above it and buff what is below it.
• TTL. If you opt for a buff-always approach, combat becomes more… rapid. Sure the defensive skills are also buffed but get caught just once without using the right defensive skill and all the buffs to damage skills will result in you just being flat out dead immediately. Time-to-live goes down with a buff-always approach, hence you want a “target TTL”. This gives you another power baseline, nerf what is above it, buff what is below it.

The two together give you both a PvE and a PvP reason to not always buff. And yes, ofc, no one likes to get nerfed. But it’s healthier for the game as a whole if buffs and nerfs happen somewhat evenly.

Which will result in a lot of nerfs because HoT was one gargantuan buff to everything. The power creep was and still is crazy. :/

Carighan.6758:

Jace al Thor.6745:

However, wouldn’t it make sense to buff the underperforming classes and builds(cause lets be honest power shatter is meh atm.) and in doing so make the other classes perform on a level playing field rather nerfing everything?

Theoretically the two are the same and buffing feels better (granted), but that ignores two very important points:

• PvE-balance. Class balance changes generally do not affect PvE enemies. I never checked but I don’t think a Risen’s Null Field is affected when mine is changed. This means if you continuously use a buff-always approach, PvE rapidly becomes (even) easier. Probably meaningless in the case of open world, but quite relevant for raids. This gives you a power baseline against which to operate, nerf what is above it and buff what is below it.
• TTL. If you opt for a buff-always approach, combat becomes more… rapid. Sure the defensive skills are also buffed but get caught just once without using the right defensive skill and all the buffs to damage skills will result in you just being flat out dead immediately. Time-to-live goes down with a buff-always approach, hence you want a “target TTL”. This gives you another power baseline, nerf what is above it, buff what is below it.

The two together give you both a PvE and a PvP reason to not always buff. And yes, ofc, no one likes to get nerfed. But it’s healthier for the game as a whole if buffs and nerfs happen somewhat evenly.

Which will result in a lot of nerfs because HoT was one gargantuan buff to everything. The power creep was and still is crazy. :/

I am by no means saying buff only. However, condi Mesmer hasn’t changed. It’s still the same build it was 6 months ago and no one used hardly then(sorry messiah) but now with the addition of Merc amulet that Anet graciously added has made it viable along with power just being horrendous.
So realistically there’s no reason to nerf condi Mesmer any more than it already has been. If you do, well it’ll be trash like everything else. Instead what my idea would be is buff power shatter and support mesmer in PvP. People like playing bunker Mesmer so it should be an option. Power shatter should always be an option. Additionally you would have a buff of bunker guard, offensive ele builds, do something with ranger so that aren’t just spamming pet f2 and CA skills, the list goes on. And these should all be possible because the amount of potential builds is high, if Anet devoted the time to make it so. There is no reason why each class shouldn’t have a minimum of 3 working builds per game mode. And by working I mean tournament quality builds.

None of that would, in my opinion, make gameplay more rapid if Anet buff things in a controlled manner. For instance, you can’t make bunker guard +100000% better at healing in one shot. You have to do small changes and tweak things. Tweak traps, tweak Rev, tweak everything.

And again, I am an advocate for split balance between PvP and PvE so you wouldn’t have to worry about PvE being easier/harder due to PvP balance because it have its own team. That and having a test server to actually see how these things would work before launching would make it so much easier. Would over head be higher? Probably, but they could make up for it by introducing new armor skins on the fading post because from what I hear people are tired of outfits and want more armor skins to customize their looks so it would be an easy sell. Plus whatever else they thought would do well.

Chorazin.4107:

Windwalker.7421:

The problem with this is that it has absolutely ZERO to do with the current Condie meta, but rather it’s Portal & Moa that gets them that slot.

Aside from that, your logic is completely silly. It means we should nerf every other class in the meta, simply for being in the meta, and quite frankly they’re ALL in line before Mesmers, because we just ate a round of nerfs that destroyed our last two meta builds. One for each season. I guess that makes sense to a Mesmer hater, to obliterate one viable Mesmer build every season?

This whole thread is silly. The condition output of Mesmer is not really any better now than it has been for many months, even post HoT. I quite venture to say before the MtD nerf it was actually stronger even pre-HoT, and of course since HoT no one complained about basically the exact same Condition pressure potential until both Power Shatter and Bunker were nerfed out of existence.

Now that you tools have run out of things to complain about, and your usual pleas for nerfing Moa and Portal continue to fall on deaf ears, you pick a new target: Condition Shatter! lol!

Let’s just delete Mesmers so you can enjoy the game more!

Lamers…

You are not reading what i said, all classes, not just the mesmer.

And for the record i have played a mesmer since release, doesnt mean i cant look objectively at something as i also play other classes. But clearly objectivity to you equates to ‘hater’.

Of course some of the meta classes still need shaving(mesmer included), the elites were way over tuned compared to the core classes and the recent patch shows not much has changed. Viability is fine, necessity is not.

Was power shatter nerfed out of existence or is it just that condie bombing is way too over tuned atm? You can look at it from both sides really, just buff power shatter rather than nerf condie shatter? Welcome to power creep, id much prefer scaling the elite specs back.

NO The other builds were not viable any more…after the cry for alacrity and quickness nerf.

Now you have condition chronomancers. I played condition builds when you were still considered trash for doing so…now it’s the in thing and people are laughably upset that they got what they asked for. Most Mesmer. C. did not run conditions before the alacrity nerf as I have said before. Many Chronomancers RESORTED to Conditions as there is nothing else.

Remove dire/perplexity, bring PvE/WvW stats into sPvP. People want skills splits and all these complications. Just balance the game universally since PvE/WvW balance is so much better than sPvP on so many levels in regards to scaling and stat distributions.

Balance largely solved.

Condi mes is only busted in WvW with dire/perplex covering its defenses and massive confusion application. Other gear combos are adequately squishy because power damage is almost doubled relative to sPvP. In sPvP, low incoming damage and still-tanky gear with very powerful defenses make the build fight a little better than it should. This isn’t an issue with the mesmer being OP but other classes not having the damage tools needed to kill it. Same goes for scrapper to a lesser extent (though this is pretty OP).

Which inherently buffs power shatter because it can actually one-shot people with a good MR combo since it gets the power it needs from gear, while its defense options make it really good in duels and small-scale since immunity to damage actually matters when timed properly to win a 1v1 or maybe 1v2 under really skilled play, but not durable enough to hold a point on its own forever given enough team attention due to its cooldown dependencies.