Guild Wars 2

The point of this thread is to collectively do some theorycrafting for mesmers who plan on running dungeons. Open world, WvW, and PvP discussion does not belong here.

DPS:

• http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4k203107RWV71;9;4STW;0147056046;45sY0y;9;0kMy_0V10j

Reflect:

• http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4k203107RWV71;9;4STV;0147056238;45sY0y;9;0kMy_0V10h

Condi:

• http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4k2l51U7wUV71;9;4TUW;0258146048;45sY0y;9;0F81-NYih

No actual math was done but I do think these builds should be close to whatever will be meta for their respective purpose. If anyone wants to pitch in with ideas, corrections, comments, etc – feel free to do so. We have only 1 week before the patch drops

I did some first calculations, and the build I found best was a hybrid sinister build.
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4k2l51U73VV71;9;4STW;0147257046;45sY0y;9;0FLLZ0VN5T

or the reflection variant:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4k2l51U73VV71;9;4STV;0147257238;45sY0y;9;0FLLZ0VN5R

My calculations can be wrong and we do not know anyway the exact changes in the items stats. But thanks to the bleed-on-crit and to a lesser extent the confusion-on-crit, the condition damage shines. It is particularly true in the reflect variant as the 12 bleeding procs of the iWarden make up for the lower damage. Also, the signets offer a more permanent source of damage than mantra, especially because as far as I know, phantasms do not benefit from the extra damage from traited mantra.
On the other hand, I did not go for scepter simply because of the clone overwriting.

For DPS, I think I would be more likely to bring Furious Interruption, Power block and mantra of pain/distraction unless the support mantras are needed. Would also likely bring DD instead of p.Fury. That’s assuming various defiant changes and interrupts work or that I go mantras. The new mimic being able to double up on a utility is pretty nice and with signet heal and feedback, doesn’t really leave much for HM to work with unless using MoP as an auto attack. With the passive from signet of midnight giving 20% condi duration… I wonder if that would be worth it over having no mantras… and if that’s the case, inspiration + aoe distortion on signet use for basically better defensive support than aegis on a shorter CD.
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4k2l6107oWV71;9;4STV;0147056237;45sY0y;9;0kMy_0V10u
Go nuts with this idea and maybe even add runes of resistance. Defensive stats but basically aegis on signet use, share boons with SoI or phantasm summon. Distortion shared with the team.

For heavy reflects, as weird as it feels, I would drop dueling and go dom, inspiration, illusions.

EDIT: Sinister and reflects should not be in the same sentence. Ferocity affects reflects. If they ever come out with a precision, ferocity, condi dmg stat then a condi reflector could make more sense.

Do we have a Rune set in mind yet for the new PvE Mesmer or will the old stand by of Scholar > Everything be in place?

I know a few might change out to condi but not sure if the new changes will bring a condi mesmer into a dungeon or not?

frifoxy.6014:

The point of this thread is to collectively do some theorycrafting for mesmers who plan on running dungeons. Open world, WvW, and PvP discussion does not belong here.

DPS:

• http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4k203107RWV71;9;4STW;0147056046;45sY0y;9;0kMy_0V10j

Reflect:

• http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4k203107RWV71;9;4STV;0147056238;45sY0y;9;0kMy_0V10h

Condi:

• http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4k2l51U7wUV71;9;4TUW;0258146048;45sY0y;9;0F81-NYih

No actual math was done but I do think these builds should be close to whatever will be meta for their respective purpose. If anyone wants to pitch in with ideas, corrections, comments, etc – feel free to do so. We have only 1 week before the patch drops

For the power variant, my build is similar, but with some exceptions.

You have the alternative of furious interruptions instead of blurred inscriptions, using signet of inspiration to align with it is a nice touch of quickness for allies if you don’t need the extra defense. Plus using a sw/sw set you’ll have a pretty low cd on interrupts.

And as for Illusions, I prefer master of fragmentation over Ineptitude. aoe diversion is actually valuable, beefier mind wrack for bursting with chronophantasm, and it makes Cry of Frustration less garbage (though we’ll probably never use it still).

I also prefer mantra of pain over mantra of resolve, lower recharge in case you need to get the 12% damage buff back up.

Wow, with rampager + krait runes, I get results which are way OP on my hybrid build!
Main problem is that it obviously builds up slower than pure damage and the other problem is that it relies much more on phantasm (down to 20% personal damage, 80% phantasm) so in a boss where their survival is not guaranteed, it can be difficult…
But the numbers look really good!

Zenith.7301:

You have the alternative of furious interruptions instead of blurred inscriptions, using signet of inspiration to align with it is a nice touch of quickness for allies if you don’t need the extra defense. Plus using a sw/sw set you’ll have a pretty low cd on interrupts.

I’ve tried using quickness on interrupt in dungeons but with how bosses have defiance and when they don’t you still want to keep defiance off for the icebow freeze, I found myself almost never getting a chance to properly proc the quickness. This is why I figured faster healing signet CD is a better choice. Also, when you do go and specialize in Inspiration for reflects, the synergy between Blurred Inscriptions and Inspiring Distortion might prove to be quite amazing. AoE invuln on demand!

Zenith.7301:

And as for Illusions, I prefer master of fragmentation over Ineptitude. aoe diversion is actually valuable, beefier mind wrack for bursting with chronophantasm, and it makes Cry of Frustration less garbage (though we’ll probably never use it still).

The reason for taking Ineptitude is I figured confusion ticks probably will add up to more dmg than the dmg from extra 10% crit on F1. I do find myself evading/blocking so much that confusion just may prove to be quite a valuable addition. Also, AoE diversion might also be an overkill too especially when you have mantra of distraction slotted in. Basically, it’s a tradeoff between dmg and utility and if there is time where that utility might be good, I’ll slot that trait. OOC trait swapping is 2nd nature to us, lol.

I also prefer mantra of pain over mantra of resolve, lower recharge in case you need to get the 12% damage buff back up.

I think this would make sense at for lupi. In experienced parties you don’t really need condi cleanse and burst spamming mantras, especially mantra of pain, to build up those +4% dps stacks is good idea. Currently, you typically have 2 mantras for lupi which add up to only ~8% dps boost. Post patch, if you go all out and time FB right you may pull off 4 stacks which add up to 17% dps boost! However, for slower pugs you might actually want that condi cleanse and your dps spike might not be worth the tradeoff.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

For heavy reflects, as weird as it feels, I would drop dueling and go dom, inspiration, illusions.

I feel Fencer’s Finesse giving Ferocity on hit and Harmonious Mantra providing those dmg modifiers is too valuable for reflects to ignore. I wonder if Blurred Frenzy hitting 8 times would give 8 stacks of FF, which is +120 ferocity. In addition to already existing FF stacks those FF stacks would be a pretty massive dps boost for reflect, especially since ferocity does transfer to phantasms too.

rabidsmiles.5926:

Do we have a Rune set in mind yet for the new PvE Mesmer or will the old stand by of Scholar > Everything be in place?

So far it looks like Scholars will remain the goto runes for PvE.

This will sound like blasphemy, but with confusing images buffed to hit six times, the confusion changes (especially under a full 25 might stacks), and the new scepter trait in illusions, will you be testing scepter in a power build?

hai frifox :-)

in the condition build, i’m guessing the stats are gonna be rabid as i see under the staff weapon, if so, swordplay isn’t possible as the physical damage output will be non-existent. fencer’s finesse to evasive mirror. even with sinister armor, with the buffs to scepter, i think, it’s a must have over sword for condition builds.

in chaos, while chaotic transference gives a little more condition damage, chaotic dampening’s 5 seconds of protection when you activate chaos armor by any means, also reducing staff skill recharge by 5% per second is really nice, considering u can atleast gain chaos armor twice to 7-8 seconds atleast and when you switch to scepter and back, staff skills should be recharged.

deceptive evasion to mistrust, with scepter/pistol + staff, we’v got a few interrupts with shatter + chaos storm + magic bullet. considering the clone generation with the weapons, doubt we need a clone on dodge :P

also, i feel sinister is a better choice over toughness because of chaotic dampening giving us protection

Hi skcamow
I looked at the scepter and the condition hits very strong, but the additional clone from the AA removes one phantasm, and the extra damage just does not make up for it.

But I am surprised nobody seems to pay attention to what I found and everybody is still speaking about zerker builds. Maybe someone can try to compute the DPS to check, but I found a clear edge for the hybrid rampager build over the zerker build in terms of DPS (using iDuelist instead of iSwordsman as main single-target phantasm).

@silverkey

the hybrid sinister build u linked above, has mental anguish and phantasmal haste, those both dont go hand in hand. mental anguish supports shatter style play while phantasmal haste supports the phantasm to be alive for longer durations

also, if you’re going for a sinister armor, meaning, a lot more condition damage, sword hits which give ferocity make no difference to condition damage.

fragility is bad for condition damage, cause it’s a % damage increase which doesn’t affect conditions.

focus doesn’t help condition damage, u’d rather have a torch or staff equipped. burning’s the highest damaging condition, 400+ per tick at level 80 at 1800 condition damage with only 1 intensity

@Telekinesis
I must say I did not know what to put for domination GM, nothing seems to fit phantasm build so I kept the one of frifoxy.

The sinister (or rampager) has high power and crit, so the increase in ferocity gives the same increased damage as on a power build. I could say in the same way that power build will take compounding power which now also increases condition damage.

I agree that many of the damage multipliers are lost. On the other hand, from what I understood (correct me if I’m wrong) they do not apply to phantasms anyway, which means we benefit only on 40% of our damage in zerker builds.

Thanks to sharper images, the focus has decent condition damage. The focus is anyway a fairly weak phantasm in zerker also compared to swordsman (if against only 1 enemy) but thanks to its 12 hits, it deals nice bleeding.

The build is most likely not optimal, I am just saying that when computing the DPS, it did beat all the zerker builds suggested above by a significant amount (especially with rune of the kraits). But I would love if someone could do the calculations and confirm or not this (my calculations can be wrong).

@Silverkey

Here ya go, phantasm power build
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4ZUk41K7BWV71;9;4STW;0158056046;9;9;0FvkD;0vs

proper dazes to interrupt give u quickness + damage on foe

if you want to go condition damage hybrid, i still think domination is a bad trait line

I had the same thing for the DPS variant but you can choose to use mantra of pain to get more damage and get 3 stacks of the mantra buff for trash. This gives you 2 utility slots for various things, I know not absolute max dps but I don’t think it’s worth trying to get the extra 8% on Mesmer damage for trash.

For bosses same as yours but if mantra of resolve or concentration not needed switch to pain. If neither needed and the group isn’t particularly great can always keep a 3 stack harmonious mantra buff with pain and use whatever is needed to get them through, defender if need be.

I really like the flexibility we get now as we get a lot more damage and can keep a moderate (improvement on old) mantra buff with just one mantra and refreshing when needed. Even though phantasms die so easily on bosses this may be enough to make mesmers dps not trash level.

But how often can you actually use interrupts? I agree with frifoxy, on mobs it can work and be a very nice addition, but not on bosses (defiant). And the 2 first minors of domination are now useful also for conditions and chaos and inspiration are only defensive, almost nothing for DPS!

Just for an approximate estimate: loosing the ferocity of zerker means basically 150% crit damage instead of 200%, so a 25% loss in damage (assuming 100% crit chance). With a DPS of about 10k (which is about the right value), that means 2500 DPS loss. Just with the sharper image, the duelist hits 8 times so about 8 bleeding stacks, lasting about long enough until the next duelist hit. With 3 phantasms, and about 200 DPS bleeding per stacks in rampager, that means 4000 DPS. So without changing the build, the DPS lost in ferocity is gained in condition damage. Add Duelist’s Discipline (a good party should anyway be able to maintain high fury uptime) and the new build clearly outperforms the old.
In summary, having the dueling minor (which all power builds have) ensures close to 25 stacks of bleed. Not investing in condition damage is just a waste!

so, you mean, sacrifice half the trait line for a hybrid sword build u want conditions in? rather than go staff and scepter and get way more damage off conditions?

8 bleeds in 8 hits on a duelist is 100% crit chance with just sharper images which is false. A good party should also always be able to maintain 25 stacks of vulnerability without sword auto attacks, but that’s a different equation. the condition damage ticks are listed below.

The values below show damage of each tick of condition at 1800 condition damage at level 80

Intensity stack = 1

Bleeding - 161 damage per tick

Burning - 410.5 damage per tick

Confusion (DoT) - 98 damage per tick
Confusion (Effect Trigger) - 162 damage per tick

Poison - 141.5 damage per tick

Torment (DoT) - 102.5 damage per tick
Torment (Effect Trigger) - 237 damage per tick

now to the main question, what sigils and runes would you go for in such a hybrid build?

lets say you’d go with condition sigils, then your damage is reduced even further on physical attacks and viceversa acts the same way.

Now, compare this build to the condition damage build i made earlier
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4VPk51U73VV71;9;4TUW;0247156048;41KW810;0bUytbUytX0kILZxP;0hQQ293949596979451Wk791;4V05N7-51;9;9;9;9;0k0;47-7g

The build you mentioned applies conditions in this way -

Since this is a not a shatter build, i’m taking shattering out of equation

On a boss, domination trait line doesn’t put any vulnerability cause you cant miss out on empowered illusions by taking rendering shatter, so that only gives your and your illusion sword auto attacks that barely reach 8-10 stacks of vulnerability for most part.

Dueling trait line has pistol trait, sharper images with confusing combatants inflicting confusion

Illusions line doesn’t afflict any other conditions due to your weapon choice

So, we’r talking about vulnerability bleeding confusion and since u mentioned the only change to the build is adding a little condition damage traits without changing anything else, i’m guessing the weapon runes and sigils are going to be physical damage based.

Now, the build i linked, the ways to apply condition damage, while still dealing a decent amount of physical damage cause of sinister armor

Dueling trait line has pistol trait, sharper images with confusing combatants inflicting confusion

With perplexity (20%) + Master of misdirection (33%) + Chaotic Persistence (3% condition duration per boon on you) + Signet of Midnight (20% condition duration)
that’s 80% confusion duration increase atleast.

While bleeding is applied the same way as in your build, there are way way more conditions being applied with staff and scepter, poison, torment, burning, more more confusion

Gimme a lil while, i’ll come back to a little more into detail on the pure condition damage advantages, i’m on the move now :-)

BTW, I’m pretty sure Harmonious Mantras is 4% damage only when you USE the mantra.. and only then it’s 4% for 8 seconds each (up to 20%). It’s not 4% per readied mantra any more.

So I guess the question is, how many times are you using mantras when you don’t need to? Condi-cleanse when you have no conditions.. Stability/stun break when you aren’t being knocked down or stunned?

mantra of pain alone gives u 12% damage boost with 3 charges, used one after the other and since it can be used while you’re attacking or casting skills, it’s quite cool, not to mention the fact that u might use other mantras while fighting

with the changes to defiance, interrupts, dazes and stuns work on bosses in HOT, so you get the bonuses out of them after the defiance change goes live

Telekinesis.8312:

with the changes to defiance, interrupts, dazes and stuns work on bosses in HOT, so you get the bonuses out of them after the defiance change goes live

From what others said about the new system (break bars) that’s a whopping great big nope train crashing through your hopes and dreams. With it also not limited to bosses any more either, there will be elites and vets with it too.

From the ambiguous and conflicting accounts, in order to proc your interrupt trait you need to use your hard CC when the enemy has made it’s break bar susceptible and to remove the last part of it while it’s also doing a skill or action.

Needless to say I would rather try and escort Serene in Dry Top with a zerg of bearbows than try and proc interrupt traits on bosses if it isn’t changed.

@Telekinesis
You’re perfectly right, I did not look for pure conditions builds. I was just trying to compute how the DPS build performed and tried for fun to change to condition stats and realized it improved the overall DPS.
Maybe it is already known that conditions have a larger DPS, but I did not expect that to be honest. With the 25 stacks limit, the superiority of raw damage was always quite clear. I’ll try more builds, and next week, I’ll also see how long it takes for the damage to build up compare to damage build.
I didn’t want to start a fight but just reporting my first calculations

I just computed the staff DPS. The AA is weak even assuming the enemy is hit twice with the extra bouncing. On the other hand, Chaos storm is very strong and assuming an almost realistic perma-chaos armor it is on a 13s recharge. Doing so, on condition spec, the DPS rotation with staff beats the sword AA. On the other hand, the extra clone of phase retreat (needed for chaos armor) is annoying, and the warlock does not hit that hard even with mass of conditions on the enemy. So I don’t think the staff is superior to sword-pistol.
Staff is a very good weapon for its additional defensive-support abilities but the DPS is not so high. If the rest of the party cannot supply might and fury reliably, it may be a better choice (and definitely for solo play).
As I said earlier, the extra clone of scepter also reduces the DPS, so not superior to sword pistol either.
Now this is assuming a strong party + the survival of phantasms. If the extra clone is no problem because phantasm die anyway, scepter/pistol + staff is definitely better.

no no, i see it as a debate, not a fight by any means :-)

IMO the condi DPS post patch will heavily depend on whether ANet changed or kept the applied condi stacks/durations for our skills and traits. It would only make sense they’d adjust some with all these changes to conditions.

both the weapon sets need to be rotated quickly, cause the cooldowns are quite low, assuming we’v used chaos armor twice in staff

@frifox
Well they did increase the duration of most burning and poison skills to make up for the nerf of the damage/stack.
But it is clear that this is a HUGE patch, and there will be a lot of tweaks in the future to get it balanced. The first weeks, there will just be a succession of new broken build until Anet nerfs them all!

@Telekinesis
Yes, with proper rotation, I can see staff and scepter being relevant to PvE now (not only in solo)!
I am very much looking forward to the changes, and I’m really curious to see if the meta for mesmer (and other professions) will include conditions or not. As it is right now, I cannot find a damage build beating the hybrid or condition ones (at least in the optimal settings that I use for computing), except for short (less than 7-10s) fights.

Silverkey.2078:

@frifox
Well they did increase the duration of most burning and poison skills to make up for the nerf of the damage/stack.
But it is clear that this is a HUGE patch, and there will be a lot of tweaks in the future to get it balanced. The first weeks, there will just be a succession of new broken build until Anet nerfs them all!

@Telekinesis
Yes, with proper rotation, I can see staff and scepter being relevant to PvE now (not only in solo)!
I am very much looking forward to the changes, and I’m really curious to see if the meta for mesmer (and other professions) will include conditions or not. As it is right now, I cannot find a damage build beating the hybrid or condition ones (at least in the optimal settings that I use for computing), except for short (less than 7-10s) fights.

Bleeding stacking with iDuelists just looks plain broken. The combination of Sharper Images and Duelists Discipline is amazing. Now if only you could take Phantasmal Fury as well…

Super Veggie Pizza and Krait Runes are now OP. What a time to be alive.

For those running condition heavy builds with the update – what stat set do you see being the most useful? Sinister? Rabid? Rampager (probably overkill with the precision)?

It depends a bit of how they really increase the stats, but with 30% increase + increase of ascended vs exotic, rampager ascended in an organized party may be overkill. So I would go for Sinister. Rabid is too defensive, the extra power of sinister is still welcome. And for the rune, krait seems really strong (we get 36 about bleeding stacks, so bleed duration yeah!).
If reflects are needed, the lack of ferocity is annoying as reflect damage only scale with crits. Would be nice with a condition+precision+ferocity… weird combination right? :p

Also I was thinking that with alacrity coming in HoT, weapon rotations not relying only on auto attack get a boost, so scepter and staff will become stronger (and I am looking forward to alacrity on phantasms for a super phantasmal haste)

Hiemdal.4367:

For those running condition heavy builds with the update – what stat set do you see being the most useful? Sinister? Rabid? Rampager (probably overkill with the precision)?

Currently, Rabid delivers more dps than Sinister because of the massive Toughness > Condi Dmg conversion we can achieve with Chaotic Transference trait and the Tuning Crystals. Since both will still be present post-patch, my bet is on Rabid still being the better of the two. This is true for Staff builds only, simply because staff direct dps is just trash.

Thanks for the quick responses. I agree with the rampager statements, the only tempting bit would be the increased ability to inflict more slow, bleeds, and confusion depending on the trait setup – however that would come with less condition damage per tick.

Didn’t think about the ferocity/reflect relationship – probably not a huge deal if the condition damage is solid but something to keep in mind.

The problem with chaotic transference for staff is that it is on the same tier as chaotic dampening…

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4k2l51U7oWV71;9;4TUW;0248156046;414Z810;0LPd_LPd_X0kILZxP;0hQQ293949596979451Wk791;4V05N7-51;9;9;9;9;0k0;3V6-7C

Probably something like that.

Sinister with Sword/Pistol and Staff.

Pizza + Malice + Nightmare runes + Midnight sigil + 5 boons and Chaotic persistence is +100% condition duration.

5 boons shouldn’t be hard with Sigil of inspiration, permanent Chaos armour (3 leaps) and 13 sec CD Chaos Storm.

You get 150 extra ferocity and every time you interrupt you get 5 stacks of might and a bonus boon while the enemy gets immobilized for 4 seconds (!) plus another random condition. A dodge also Blinds and confuses enemies.

With the changes to condition stacking condition duration is super powerful. Poor old veggie Pizza is going to get so nerfed.

Interesting times ahead.

Just the condition damage stat check without added sigil bonus and all exotic armor and weapons (only ascended accessories)

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4VPk51973VV71;9;4TUW;0247146048;41KW810;0bUytbUytj-FqcAZ7;0hQQ3V7WD1IYN3T_0-WCk1e;5V05N7-5N;9;9;9;9;87-7U

The above link is full rabid with chaotic transference without undead runes and without tuning crystal at 1932 condition damage

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4VPk51973VV71;9;4TUW;0247146048;41KW810;0NX8aNX8aj-FqcAZ7;0hQQ3V7WD1IYN3T_0-WCk1e;5V05N7-5N;9;9;9;9;87-7O

The above link is full rabid with chaotic transference and undead runes (7% toughness to condition damage) without tuning crystal at 2039 condition damage

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4VPk51973VV71;9;4TUW;0247146048;41KW810;0NX8aNX8aj-FqcAZ7;0hQQ3V7WD1IYN3T_0-WCk1e;5V05N7-5N;9;9;9;9;87s5y

The above link is full rabid with undead runes and tuning crystal at 2092 condition damage

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4VPk51973VV71;9;4TUW;0247156048;41KW810;0bUytbUytX0kILZxP;0hQQ293949596979451Wk791;4V05N7-51;9;9;9;9;0k0;47-7I

The above link is full sinister with chaotic dampening at 1749 condition damage

Conclusion -
Around 200 condition damage increase without undead runes using chaotic transference. More survival due to high toughness. Low base damage on shatters and phantasmal warlock (correct me if i’m wrong on this) and Choice of runes and nourishment

Around 300 condition damage increase with undead runes using chaotic transference. More survival due to high toughness. Low base damage on shatters, duelist and phantasmal warlock (correct me if i’m wrong on this). Choice on nourishment

Around 350 condition damage increase with chaotic transference and undead runes using tuning crystal. Low base damage on shatters, duelist and phantasmal warlock (correct me if i’m wrong on this)

Lower condition damage without undead runes and without chaotic transference but not to forget the fact that with application of chaos armor, all staff skills reduced by 40-50%, also gives protection for 5 seconds on every chaos armor application on self. Choice of runes and nourishment

I was going to link my build idea that i had when i read the balance change notes, then i realized frifoxy posted the same as “reflect”.

One big advantage the Rabid set has is if you are poor or just starting out you can but the entire exotic set including the trinkets from Orr vendors.

Silverkey.2078:

The problem with chaotic transference for staff is that it is on the same tier as chaotic dampening…

We’re talking strictly PvE here so having Chaotic Dampening for PvE isn’t worth while and a DPS loss.

with choice of runes and nourishment which gives more condition duration and more conditions on an enemy (be it krait, perplexity etc) and assuming 50% cd reduction of staff, that’s 17 second chaos storm + about 7-8 second cooldown on phantasmal warlock. i dont think it’s a dps loss by any means, be it early into the fight or an extended one

with no rabid gear, ur phantasms have higher base damage, so meaning, phantasmal warlock has higher base damage which increases 10% per condition. so does pistol.

while the gap of 200-300 condition damage is closed by the ways mentioned above, it also promotes active gameplay with more skill usage.

I agree with Telekinesis, if playing staff, the CD reduction of chaotic dampening is almost necessary. The AA is weak so the more often you do chaos storm the better!

Coming back to rabid vs sinister, I did a bunch more calculations. Using my build (sword-pistol), switching to Rabid, giving up domination to get the chaotic transference in the chaos line, I do get a slight increase in overall damage. However, this is at the expense of having basically no personal contribution to damage (10% personal, 90% phantasm).
Switching to scepter instead of sword does not help, the personal damage is much stronger but the loosing of one phantasm reduces the damage output too much. In fights where phantasm survival is difficult, this may be the best solution.
The other problem with scepter is that it is not a great AOE/cleave weapons. It can in principle hit multiple enemies but not reliably.

So in conclusion, I believe the hybrid build (rampager or sinister) with sword main hand is still best in both AOE and single target situations.

I have also looked more into reflect builds. The one I suggested in my first message is crap I realize. I believe the ideal would be dueling, inspiration, illusion. Illusion allows to take phantasmal haste. They finally fixed it for iWard so 2 iWard should be close to 100% reflect uptime. However, as we do not benefit as much from the insane bleeding of iDuel, so in this case rabid is not as strong even if we could have chaotic transference. I was on the other hand surprised that this sinister/rampager still beats the berserker heads on!

I don’t have a sinister set yet (may craft one in the near future) but I do have both rabid and rampager sitting in the bank. I’m going to try some of these builds out next week and see what works/doesn’t.

I also want to test out the greatsword in full berzerker post-expansion to see how the combination of Danger Time and Lost Time changes the damage output.

Greatsword is already not massively weaker than sword-sword at full distance (maybe 20% less damage). But to still benefit from party buffs, everyone would need to stay at range.

Why would danger time matters? It’s only a crit rate increased no? Of course then one could almost spec without any crit (power-ferocity-condition damage?).
I actually hope some new stats combination happen, because there is currently much less condition damage combinations than power. Not to mention that condition duration, boon duration etc have now disappeared from the trait lines so we need to get them back in armors or in runes.

Oops – good catch, I meant to say try out greatsword in full sinister. When looking at the hybrid builds (rampager vs sinister) if using the greatsword the bonus from danger time would likely offset the reduction in precision compared to rampager armor. I’ll likely still go staff with the hybrid, but would be interested in the GS nonetheless.

I’m going to run full sinister and a very similar sRT up to telekinesis but I don’t see taking sword over sceptor. I’m going to have to really play around with this. Then again, sword with torment sigil.. hmm

I’m having a hard time seeing the use of rabid over sinister in most situations simply because of trash mobs.

The dps of rabid (either in staff or x/pistol) may very well be the highest single target damage possible, but it has very poor potential for doing aoe condition damage. Add that to the issue that trash already gets deleted rapidly and I’m seeing a need for at least a good amount of power with sword cleaving.

Additionally, it seems to me that the added damage from sword cleaving will outweigh the bonus condition damage you’d get from rabid. If you’re using staff, ignore that comment of course, but in sword/pistol you’ll get a substantial damage bonus from the power in sinister gear.

N.B.: I haven’t actually crunched the numbers to back that up, that’s just my gut talking.

@Fay you’re perfectly right. For trash, the extra clone of scepter is not as detrimental, but you can’t hit easily multiple target. Staff has more AOE/bouncing but does not hit that hard (only chaos storm does decent work). Sword is really our only decent cleave/AOE weapon. And it hits like cooked spaghetti in rabid. I think Rabid is ideal for PvP/WvW where the extra toughness is very useful and scepter is a powerful weapon (confusion + torment wreck).

Cleaving trash is a pointless criticism. Mesmers already suck at it and to be honest even fractal lv50 trash is dead in a few seconds when an elementalist/thief/warrior is in your group.

Mesmer, power or conditions, has only ever been brought for utility, not damage. In many cases, the mesmer is not even clearing trash, he’s running to the next destination to lay a portal while the rest of the group fights.

Since we have many shatter traits as baseline + we are somewhat forced to take shatter traits by lack of choice (especially the GM) I tried to see how useful shatters could be. And it’s quite impressive. I think when your illusions are well sync’ed, you could shatter them after they all did their attack, because the shatter damage is completely worth the close to 3s spent recasting the phantasms when your signet of the ether is off-CD. Especially in sinister/rampager build, the confusion is quite decent, and if you expect a boss to attack fast, F2 can be very worth it (nearly 2k damage per attack with the 8 stacks confusion it applies). I almost wonder if maim the disillusioned could be better than phantasmal haste…

Pretty excited for tomorrow when we can turn some of this theory into real-world tests. Sinister vs Rampager hybrid should be interesting, I’m not sure how the numbers will come out for PvE dungeons.