Guild Wars 2

Hey everyone
in this Thread I would like to discuss the effect “Revealed”, specifically granted by the skills I will mention in just a second.
I will post this in the Thief, Mesmer, Engineer, Ranger and Guardian Forum as these are the professions that either (usually) use stealth or have the ability to apply Revealed through their skills (or, in the case of Dragonhunter, will have the ability).

Before replying please read the whole post, I know it’s a lot but there are also important suggestions + notes in the last few sentences. Thank you

Skills/Traits applying Reveal:

• Analyze (Engineer Toolbelt Utility Skill of Utility Goggles: 6s 1200 Range Reveal + 10×8s Vulnerability, 25s CD)
• Lock On (Engineer Tools Major Master Trait: Striking foes in Stealth analyzes them – see above)
• Detection Pulse (Scrapper Toolbelt Elite Skill of Sneak Gyro: 6s 900 Range AoE Reveal, 20s CD)
• “Sic ’Em!” (Ranger Utility Skill: 6s 2000 Range Reveal, 40s CD)
• Light’s Judgement (Dragonhunger Utility Skill: 10 240 AoE Pulses with 1100 Dmg, 8x 1s Reveal and 25×2s Vulnerability, kitten CD)

Why Do We Complain?
In the Thief Forum there have been a lot of suggestions/complaints about these Skills/Traits in particular. While we do know that they are rarely taken, Analyze, Lock On or Sic ‘Em are seen fairly often on Burst Builds.
Especially Thieves are targeted by the Reveal, as Stealth is currently our best defensive mechanic as Acrobatics (the Thief’s dodge trait line) sucks.
Given that we have an entire trait line based on stealth, lots of utilities and weapon combos balanced around it (while Stealth is not a Thief mechanic, Sneak Attacks are).

These skills/this trait pretty much deny us a whole trait line in a fight and with that most of our surviability, while Revealed we don’t have access to as much dmg as usual (which we usually build for) and the only defensive mechanics we then got are:

• Dodges (which every profession got, so these basically don’t count)
• Blind (very Initiative heavy)
• Interrupts (very Initiative heavy)
  Basically the only other two viable options are kiting (= no dmg) and shadow stepping out to wait until Revealed is over (50s CD).

Suggestions
Because of these reasons there have been some suggestions to change the Revealed effect of these skills/this trait:

• Make the skills not apply “Revealed”, but rather an effect called “Spotted”: everyone can see the target(s) while they still gain the benefits from being in stealth (easy to avoid Backstabs or Mirror Blades for example, but Thieves and Mesmers are not totally locked out of stealth traits they may have chosen for survivability).
• Make the skills be AoE and not apply Revealed to the target(s), but simply drop the stealth that’s currently on them. In this case the skills could even get a casting time and an animation in order to make them counterable.

With these changes, Revealed (and therefore possible “locked” chosen traits) could only be achieved by dealing damage from stealth, which at least a lot of Thieves deem fairer.

Many Thieves think that Revealed on Skills is a bad mechanic that wasn’t thought through, just thrown in to give people a counter to the former counterless stealth. Funnily enough, Anet thereby designed a counterless counter.

Another Idea
Also, I personally think that Analyze (and thereby Lock On), Detection Pulse, “Sic ’Em!” and Light’s Judgement should get benefits when hitting targets without Stealth.
For example, if you’d hit a Thief and a Warrior with Detection Pulse while the Thief was revealed, the Thief would get “Spotted” or dropped out of stealth. As the Warrior wasn’t stealthed, a possibility could be for the Scrapper to gain 1s of Stealth (could be 1s of Stealth for every non-stealthed target hit, while prioritizing stealthed targets. Detection Pulse should have a maximum amount of targets then).
With changes like this, I think these skills and traits would see more use (outside of rekking Thieves ) and would also have a more tactical approach.

Before Answering, Please
Please, before answering, consider the following: With this thread or these suggestions I don’t mean to balance any professions or builds, but rather only the skills I talked about and “Revealed”.
Therefore simply saying “No, it should stay, Mesmer and Thief OP” doesn’t contribute at all, as Mesmer’s or Thief’s OPness or not should be balanced by itself (Traits, Weapon Skills,…) and not through Skills of other professions.
I know it can be hard to differentiate (especially as a lot of players hate Thieves and think that Mesmers are OP at the moment).

Anyway, thanks for reading and what do you guys think about my suggestions?

Sounds good. I’ll sign it off today and we should see it implemented Tuesday.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sounds good. I’ll sign it off today and we should see it implemented Tuesday.

100% should be a dev.

I like the suggestions as well, my main problem, as you have stated, is that you can’t counter the counter.

Firstly, headshot and shadowshot are not “heavy initiative” they are medium so stop being a drama queen, it’s why people dislike the thief forums and people who dwell there.

Secondly I think that spotted would be hard to telegraph to players about what is going on. The current stealth (being see through) and revealed communicates what is happening VERY well.

I said on the thief forum, why not ask for “While in stealth” traits to be changed to “When entering stealth”? This way is dissuades against stealth camping which has been the biggest complaint in WvW.

Only things I think needs changing is revealed knocked down a notch to 5s and not stacking. As for thief itself daredevil and acrobatics are going to be very strong especially if they make the “on dodge” traits a little more forgiving so you get the benefits if you dodged about half a second early.

The problem for thieves isn’t revealed, it’s that you’re entirely dependant on stealth for any kind of meaningful condi cleansing and sustain.

Also I can’t believe you’re complaining about the skills/traits you’ve listed which all have a hefty cost to using them vs whatever else they could have taken. The thing you should fear is Gaze of Darkness as it’s a useful skill in and of itself on a legend that is also extremely useful.

apharma.3741:

Firstly, headshot and shadowshot are not “heavy initiative” they are medium so stop being a drama queen, it’s why people dislike the thief forums and people who dwell there.

Well Headshot or Shadow Shot may not be initiative heavy, it’s rather that having to use them pretty often while revealed to avoid dmg that makes them hit heavy on your Ini bar.
Could’ve also said that without insulting btw, thank you very much.

Secondly I think that spotted would be hard to telegraph to players about what is going on. The current stealth (being see through) and revealed communicates what is happening VERY well.

Spotted could mean everyone is able to see you. Normally. And to show that you’re stealthed you could still have the stealth + a spotted sign on your health bar.

I said on the thief forum, why not ask for “While in stealth” traits to be changed to “When entering stealth”? This way is dissuades against stealth camping which has been the biggest complaint in WvW.

That’s what I want and a lot of other Thieves as well… for SA and PU.
Some thieves are not as whiny loosers as you make it seem, some are capable of thinking through fair changes.

Only things I think needs changing is revealed knocked down a notch to 5s and not stacking. As for thief itself daredevil and acrobatics are going to be very strong especially if they make the “on dodge” traits a little more forgiving so you get the benefits if you dodged about half a second early.

The problem for thieves isn’t revealed, it’s that you’re entirely dependant on stealth for any kind of meaningful condi cleansing and sustain.

Also I can’t believe you’re complaining about the skills/traits you’ve listed which all have a hefty cost to using them vs whatever else they could have taken. The thing you should fear is Gaze of Darkness as it’s a useful skill in and of itself on a legend that is also extremely useful.

I’m calling for a rebalance because it’s a free win. Occasionally but still.
Same like Diamond Skin on Eles should be changed.

Honestly revealed is a pretty silly mechanic and I can’t think of a great way to fix it. GW2 should have done what almost every other game does and make maintaining stealth dependent on not using skills/proximity to foes. Coupling stealth to direct damage makes absolutely no sense to me. Of course going down this path now would require a major re-balance of the Thief and Mesmer so I guess we are stuck with Revealed.

If I was being insulting you’d know about it. However you are definitely making things out to be a lot worse than they are, which is why I said drama queen.

Thief full auto in marauder will average about 5k damage, more in WvW.
Shadowshot is blind, teleport and does between 3 and 4k depending on spec.
Black powder is a great defensive skill in and of itself, high cost (6ini) but stays for 4s with 3 blinds during it’s duration.
So long as you’re not wasting initiative you should be able to kite/blind through reveal long enough.

As I said most of the skills/traits you’ve listed are not going to be used in PvP by anyone outside of low rank/hotjoin, they’re not worth it. Where they will be useful is in WvW which is where stealth is the major problem because of large open areas, lots of time and a lack of point cap mechanic.

I fully welcome the new sources of reveal and I do not mind in the slightest on either my mesmer or thief. I do think the engineers detection pulse could do with a clip on the range/cool down increase and I think revealed shouldn’t stack.

Edit: The only time I find reveal really hurts is when it’s the stealth detection trap in WvW. 30s no stealth is extremely punishing.

apharma.3741:

If I was being insulting you’d know about it. However you are definitely making things out to be a lot worse than they are, which is why I said drama queen.

Thief full auto in marauder will average about 5k damage, more in WvW.
Shadowshot is blind, teleport and does between 3 and 4k depending on spec.
Black powder is a great defensive skill in and of itself, high cost (6ini) but stays for 4s with 3 blinds during it’s duration.
So long as you’re not wasting initiative you should be able to kite/blind through reveal long enough.

As I said most of the skills/traits you’ve listed are not going to be used in PvP by anyone outside of low rank/hotjoin, they’re not worth it. Where they will be useful is in WvW which is where stealth is the major problem because of large open areas, lots of time and a lack of point cap mechanic.

I fully welcome the new sources of reveal and I do not mind in the slightest on either my mesmer or thief. I do think the engineers detection pulse could do with a clip on the range/cool down increase and I think revealed shouldn’t stack.

Edit: The only time I find reveal really hurts is when it’s the stealth detection trap in WvW. 30s no stealth is extremely punishing.

But you will have weakness, blind etc. That damage is exaggerated.

apharma.3741:

Edit: The only time I find reveal really hurts is when it’s the stealth detection trap in WvW. 30s no stealth is extremely punishing.

As it should be. They spent supply to accomplish that.

assassin.7895:

That damage is exaggerated.

No it isn’t. I worked it out a while ago for another thief claiming it wasn’t true.

Edit: Yes I also forgot about how thief applies 4s of weakness on a 10s ICD when you poison a foe if using deadly arts, like on dagger auto.

Revealed is a fine mechanic, as it is direct active counter play to stealth. Thieves certainly have a good deal of access to stealth, which often allows free escape or damage against many specs. Mesmers have the same issues, and while the revealed mechanic may not be perfect, it is a hard active counter to this strong effect.

Looking to the future, both mesmers and thieves are receiving strong defensive buffs in HoT, which will alleviate much of the reliance on stealth, especially for thieves, as damage mitigation. These changes include shield and F5 for mesmers and staff and dodges for thieves. Especially given these changes, stealth does not seem a necessary trait for either class, but more of a risky luxury, which is exactly what it should be.

Revealed seems fine as it is, a good counterplay to stealth.

Versepelles.1972:

Revealed is a fine mechanic, as it is direct active counter play to stealth. Thieves certainly have a good deal of access to stealth, which often allows free escape or damage against many specs. Mesmers have the same issues, and while the revealed mechanic may not be perfect, it is a hard active counter to this strong effect.

Looking to the future, both mesmers and thieves are receiving strong defensive buffs in HoT, which will alleviate much of the reliance on stealth, especially for thieves, as damage mitigation. These changes include shield and F5 for mesmers and staff and dodges for thieves. Especially given these changes, stealth does not seem a necessary trait for either class, but more of a risky luxury, which is exactly what it should be.

Revealed seems fine as it is, a good counterplay to stealth.

The problem is, revealed is not just a counter to stealth. If the suggestion:

Make the skills not apply “Revealed”, but rather an effect called “Spotted”: everyone can see the target(s) while they still gain the benefits from being in stealth (easy to avoid Backstabs or Mirror Blades for example, but Thieves and Mesmers are not totally locked out of stealth traits they may have chosen for survivability).

was implemented, then these skills that currently apply revealed to enemies would just counter stealth like you are implying. Revealed locks Thieves and Mesmers out of stealth related traits. It hits Thieves even harder, locking them out of the Stealth Attack mechanic as well, whether they take Shadow Arts or not. If these skills applied “Spotted” like what was suggested instead of revealed, then I wouldn’t have an issue with them. They would still be an effective counter to stealth as well.