Guild Wars 2

Hey there forum. Let me start by saying I like build diversity. I think a lot of people like this, because it helps keep the game a little bit more interesting. Now because I like build diversity, I’ve come to talk about Illusionist’s Celerity. If you’re in this sub-forum you probably know what that is, but if you don’t, it’s the 5 point trait in the Illusions trait line that gives a 20% reduction to all illusion creating skills.

Now this is an amazing trait: It gives cooldown reduction to 2 skills in any weapon set you’re holding, and also to 4 utilities, and it does this for only 5 points into its tree. The problem with this is that it’s so good that you’d have be stupid not to take it. This means that nearly everyone takes it, and because everyone takes it, it seems that Mesmers have been balanced around the idea that they will all have it. This makes it so that if you don’t take this trait, you can really feel it.

This brings me back to build diversity. Because of the above, Mesmers are more or less forced to go into the Illusions tree to feel at all competitive. Now of course, many if not most Mesmers would go into that tree anyway, but there are players like me who like to try strange builds that wouldn’t go into the Illusions tree at all. Illusionist’s Celerity is harmful in that it only further hampers these sorts of builds, which are already probably not optimal to begin with. Those 5 points might not seem like much, but that’s a major trait that you wont be able to get, and with Mesmers being as trait dependent as they are, that can make or break the build.

So here’s what I propose:

Reduce the cooldown on all illusion generating skills by 20%, and change Illusionist’s Celerity to have a different effect entirely.

To me, it doesn’t matter what it’s changed to, but perhaps it could be that swiftness generating effect people always seem to be complaining for (celerity does mean “swiftness” after all). Now because Mesmers are already balanced around having this 20% reduction, it shouldn’t affect normal Mesmer builds much at all, but it would allow people like me to ignore the Illusions tree if we want to (my current build has exactly 5 points in it, just for this trait). And really, if we’re all expected to have it, shouldn’t that just be our baseline to begin with?

Reasonable argument, It sort of is a default skill to have for all builds… Though I am not sure if it is because we really need it or if it’s just because it’s a great price for how good it is.

sinican.9250:

Reasonable argument, It sort of is a default skill to have for all builds… Though I am not sure if it is because we really need it or if it’s just because it’s a great price for how good it is.

Well think about it: if Illusionist’s Celerity was a 30 point trait, I’m pretty sure people would still take it. I mean compare it to Illusionary Persona, perhaps our best current Grandmaster trait. If you had to choose between them, it would be quite the choice. What would be better, shatters on the Mesmer, or 20% more illusions to shatter (as well as the associated effects)?

The Illusions trait line, as with all the other trait lines in the fifth slot, is the class line. It mirrors the Primary Attribute from the original Guild Wars, which so defined the class that you were gimping yourself if you ignored it. Monks that didn’t put points in Divine Favor threw away half of their healing, on average, and Warriors who didn’t put anything into Strength did significantly less weapon damage than Warriors who did. The same principle still applies in Guild Wars 2: if you ignore your fifth trait line, you’re going to be a bad example of your class because you haven’t put any resources into improving the core feature of your class. So I see no problems with a Mesmer who puts 0 points in Illusions feeling like dead weight. That’s because they are.

And if things should be done the same way they were in Guild Wars, we’d be playing Utopia, not Guild Wars 2.

It is kind of sad that the Illusion line feels somewhat necessary these days, but it doesn’t just extend to traits. I do agree with Kupi that it seems like Anet is encouraging us to use shatter builds whether we wish to or not.

Ideally, I’d rather have greater build diversity, but I think the strains of class balancing are getting to them. They did say GW2 would be much easier to balance due to less complexity with single classes, but I think traits just replaced the secondary class mechanic from GW. Perhaps they underestimated the complexity that traits add to the classes.

Kupi.7864:

The Illusions trait line, as with all the other trait lines in the fifth slot, is the class line. It mirrors the Primary Attribute from the original Guild Wars, which so defined the class that you were gimping yourself if you ignored it.

Well that’s just not true. There are plenty of Engineers who put no points in Tools, and I don’t think I know any rangers who put points in Beastmastery. So there’s precedent for the 5th trait line not being mandatory.

Kupi.7864:

The Illusions trait line, as with all the other trait lines in the fifth slot, is the class line. It mirrors the Primary Attribute from the original Guild Wars, which so defined the class that you were gimping yourself if you ignored it. Monks that didn’t put points in Divine Favor threw away half of their healing, on average, and Warriors who didn’t put anything into Strength did significantly less weapon damage than Warriors who did. The same principle still applies in Guild Wars 2: if you ignore your fifth trait line, you’re going to be a bad example of your class because you haven’t put any resources into improving the core feature of your class. So I see no problems with a Mesmer who puts 0 points in Illusions feeling like dead weight. That’s because they are.

And that’s just not a good argument. If that were the case, then you should by default have that trait line filled, and then the remaining points would be discretionary. The benefit of the line should be to your unique class abilities, not necessary for your class, especially if you choose to strengthen other possible areas than those unique to the class.

I feel the same way about Deceptive Evasion. If you like clones, it’s not absolutely necessary, but it may as well be.

It does not make sense to “change/nerf” a skill/trait just because you cannot give it up if it’s existent. You couldnt be able to try “strange builds” because you have forced yourself to put 5 pts for a common/useful skill that many mesmers would take it.

I surely am a dead weight on my guardian with only 5 points in virtue. :’(

As for the op, I doubt they will change it though I wish they would. I don’t like to feel forced to go a certain build to be effective (shatter build for example). This game is supposed to be all about diversity and how every class can more or less accomplish what they want and at this point, there are some traits that seems useless and almost nobody is taking and some which feels almost mandatory because they are that good compared to other.

Here’s a better measure:

Apply your 20% reductaion to the class base illusion recharge, then keep the trait the same (reducing illusion summoning CD’s by 20%), if people would still take the 20% reduction for 5 points, then no it shouldn’t be changed. Obviously it’s worth the cost, and you’re going to have to bite the bullet and accept the cost for the benefit.

Actually, 5 points is exactly the problem, if it were deeper in the tree it might not be as heavily relied on, but there again I’m starting to question conventional wisdom more lately, I’m starting to wonder if it’s worth getting at all if you aren’t running a utility clone/phantasm, could the 5 points be better spent elsewhere if we are not? And what would happen if we swapped it with the 15 point trait Illusionary Retribution?. . . Would it still be mandatory or too deep for the other builds? Surely not every build would want it then especially since they would lose more to get it then gain?

Any of my builds have 5 to 30 points in Illusions. 5 is mandatory. Every weapon combo, damage setup, tank setup, dungeon setup, Wv3 setup etc. benefit from this trait.
It is too good to skip. Everytime I spend those 5 points, I think, why do we have to? This should be part of our class anyway…

Assayer.3916:

It does not make sense to “change/nerf” a skill/trait just because you cannot give it up if it’s existent. You couldnt be able to try “strange builds” because you have forced yourself to put 5 pts for a common/useful skill that many mesmers would take it.

I’m not sure I quite understand what you’re saying, but if it’s what I think it is, I’d have to say I disagree. You seem to be saying that it’s only me who is forcing myself from using it. While yes, I could choose not to use it, the state of Mesmers right now seems to demand taking Illusionist’s Celerity to feel useful. I don’t expect any of my weird builds to be “the best” build, if it was the best it wouldn’t be weird, it would be the standard. I would though like to feel competent, and right now that’s almost impossible without those 5 points in Illusions.

I guess that comes down to ideology. I think that if a trait is mandatory to feel useful, then it should be changed, because I feel that professions should be useful at a base, with traits determining how useful, and in what ways.

Not quite sure why the trait need to rework.
Isn’t it a great thing to have a trait useful at lower cost and also can get at lower level?
lol

Czhang.1346:

Not quite sure why the trait need to rework.
Isn’t it a great thing to have a trait useful at lower cost and also can get at lower level?
lol

Well, I kind of already addressed that, but tl;dr:

The idea is that the trait is so good, that everyone took it. Because everyone took it, we where balanced around always having it. Because of that, we need to go into the Illusions tree if we want to feel useful. This harms build diversity. I like build diversity. Removing the trait would be a huge nerf. So instead of that, I think we should have the 20% cooldown built in to the profession, and have Illusionist’s Celerity be something else.

Quote Pavlov.3710
" I think we should have the 20% cooldown built in to the profession, have Illusionist’s Celerity be something else."
Hey, i like this idea,lol. Reduce the CD of summons(built in) and have additional trait benefit with that trait.