Yeah, it all should work with our runes as they (minions) are extension of our power. Their dmg counts as ours, we get aggro, its our damage. So if the rune says i deal 7% more damage, kitten why it doesn’t work on my kinda extremely big source of dmg :/ I always feel cheated about that, I consider it a bug and it should be changed. For comparision, warriors can fully utilize their runes and sigils.
Mesmer clones do enough without gear modifiers, DPS would be through the roof if they got everything.
They’re the only minions that inherit stats which already makes them extremely strong in general.
Oh noes, what a terrible shame and horribly unbalanced it would be to get an extra 150 – 300 points of damage for our 1500 – 3000 phant hits when everything can already out sustain any glass mes that isn’t phant build… and Phant builds aren’t even all that useful outside of 1v1s in PvP but are useless in team fights and yet can still loss 1v1 due to terrain.
The Horror!
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~” “Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
Phantasms only ever inherit base stats, like power and precision. This means +%damage and +%crit chance gear (and traits) do not affect them.
Sorry if I am a bit thick…
What do you mean by gear? As I understand flat bonus from sigils (+5damge or crit) do not apply. What about sigil of might? 6th bonus from runes doesn’t. What about runes stats like +25, 50 and 100 (power, crit or whatever)?
Are base stats you mentioned the amulets values (in case of pvp) and the passive traits line bonuses (like +power in case of Dom tree) added toghether?
Anything that affects the core stats will transfers to phantasms. Whatever you see in your hero panel under “Power”, “Precision”, “Ferocity” is what phantasms will use as their own stats. Might increases “Power” so yes, it will transfer to phantasms. “Critical Chance” and “Critical Damage” and anything that modifies them however will be ignored by phantasms.
Mesmer clones do enough without gear modifiers, DPS would be through the roof if they got everything.
They’re the only minions that inherit stats which already makes them extremely strong in general.
Oh noes, what a terrible shame and horribly unbalanced it would be to get an extra 150 – 300 points of damage for our 1500 – 3000 phant hits when everything can already out sustain any glass mes that isn’t phant build… and Phant builds aren’t even all that useful outside of 1v1s in PvP but are useless in team fights and yet can still loss 1v1 due to terrain.
The Horror!
Phants would get:
10% from Scholar/7% from Ranger/+5% from Strength
+10% from Night
+5% from Force
If you’re going to add consumables you can count 10% from potions and +10% from Seaweed Salad. That puts you up to over 50% boost (since it’s multiplicative) which is massive. Don’t forget how much damage phantasms deal in general, it’s not unusual for a Swordsman to be hitting 10k on a properly buffed mesmer.
On a 2,600 target with 6/4/0/0/4 (assasins armor/weapons) and ALL offensive buffs swordsman will hit for 7,057 – 8,625. If we let him inherit all the damage modifiers from gear he’ll hit for 9,593 – 11,725. That’s a 36% increase and knowing that with 3 phantasms out the split between mes and phantasm dps is around 50/50 so mes as a class then would get at most an 18% dps boost.
I think the ranger or necro could use that 20% boost way more than a mesmer does.
Mesmer lacks burst but their sustain is amazing, boosting the sustain even more doesn’t actually change anything except making them even more OP in the content where they are already OP.
And also being aware that phantasms have only 5.8k HP and are as glassy as their owner which is completely ridiculous once you compare it to ranger’s fav dps pet, jaguar, who has 25k HP and 1,374 toughness even if their owner is glass cannon.
And also being aware that phantasms have only 5.8k HP and are as glassy as their owner which is completely ridiculous once you compare it to ranger’s fav dps pet, jaguar, who has 25k HP and 1,374 toughness even if their owner is glass cannon.
I was actually more making a reference in PvPs sake(where balance IMO should stem from), where if you go empowered illusions as well as phantasmal strength you’re only hitting 4k-ish. I’m unsure of the calculation used to determine diminishing returns between scholar stacking with force… but that’s still not horribly strong to the level of broken.
If we’re talking WvW or PvE yeah ok I see the point, but balance in PvE is a tad redundant since anyone can solo meaningful encounters. So ultimately I don’t see a problem with hitting 10k phants in PvE.
WvW (which technically was never supposed to be balanced anyways) I do see a problem… I’ll be honest I don’t partake in WvW outside of havoc. But I do think that since the vast majoirty is stacking tanky with consumables allowing phants to benefit would serve to help puncture through that armor on a glass build.
So I still don’t think it’s tooo bad, but I do get it could be potentially problematic
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~” “Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
What modes are “important” is subjective. If anything you could argue that balance in WvW and PvP aren’t as important because anyone can just join up with a zerg and steamroll things, whereas in PvE everything is co-op and people are trying to minmax so no one’s going to take weak classes (see: necromancer). Certainly as someone who only plays PvE and primarily pugs dungeons, I’d say mesmer is extremely strong and needs nerfs if anything. As someone who does sPvP or WvW or whatever you might have different opinions but Anet needs to balance the class across all modes, with the current design they can’t buff the mesmer for PvP without making it broken in PvE and vice versa.
Also, comparing mesmer phantasms to ranger pets is silly. Mesmer phantasms scale with their stats meaning a single Swordsman actually has better DPS than a feline pet, and the Swordsman can be resummoned and stacked on a 12s cooldown, not to mention the second phantasm you get with your other weapon set. Meanwhile felines are stuck on a 20s CD if you swap to avoid them dying and you can only ever have one out at a time. Not to mention mesmers can recoup some DPS loss if a phantasm dies by summoning the sword clone in its place, which sustains about 3 vuln per.
Certainly as someone who only plays PvE and primarily pugs dungeons, I’d say mesmer is extremely strong and needs nerfs if anything. As someone who does sPvP or WvW or whatever you might have different opinions but Anet needs to balance the class across all modes, with the current design they can’t buff the mesmer for PvP without making it broken in PvE and vice versa.
I’m honestly becoming convinced we’re not playing the same game here. Mesmer is a good pug carry classy certainly, but extremely strong and needs nerfs? What on earth are you talking about?
Certainly as someone who only plays PvE and primarily pugs dungeons, I’d say mesmer is extremely strong and needs nerfs if anything. As someone who does sPvP or WvW or whatever you might have different opinions but Anet needs to balance the class across all modes, with the current design they can’t buff the mesmer for PvP without making it broken in PvE and vice versa.
I’m honestly becoming convinced we’re not playing the same game here. Mesmer is a good pug carry classy certainly, but extremely strong and needs nerfs? What on earth are you talking about?
Since you discussed about the diminishing returns on the other thread, Is there any diminishing returns for our phantasms too? Is it the same formula? I mean the diminishing returns for yourself?
Certainly as someone who only plays PvE and primarily pugs dungeons, I’d say mesmer is extremely strong and needs nerfs if anything. As someone who does sPvP or WvW or whatever you might have different opinions but Anet needs to balance the class across all modes, with the current design they can’t buff the mesmer for PvP without making it broken in PvE and vice versa.
I’m honestly becoming convinced we’re not playing the same game here. Mesmer is a good pug carry classy certainly, but extremely strong and needs nerfs? What on earth are you talking about?
Since you discussed about the diminishing returns on the other thread, Is there any diminishing returns for our phantasms too? Is it the same formula? I mean the diminishing returns for yourself?
Well, phantasms suffer from math-based diminishing returns just like everything else. You can’t avoid math. They don’t have any inherent diminishing returns though. I don’t know of any mechanic in the entire game that provides artificial diminishing returns.
hmm. okay. so If i were to build A phantasm based build, what number in power do i stop so I could invest it on other stats? I mean like what range does the diminishing returns start?
hmm. okay. so If i were to build A phantasm based build, what number in power do i stop so I could invest it on other stats? I mean like what range does the diminishing returns start?
It’s not a point at which it starts, it’s simply a smooth progression.
Adding 100 power when you have 1000 power increases your total power by 10%. Adding 100 power when you have 2000 power increases it by 5%. This is a % diminishing return simply caused by having a larger pool that you’re adding to.
There’s no certain point where it ‘kicks in’. It’s just that it if you have a ton of power, adding more power provides a smaller benefit than if you have a small amount of power.
Well I am glad the discussion has carried on. However my question was primarly for pvp and eventually wvw. But I guess the subject can also be moved to pve too, why not.
Certainly as someone who only plays PvE and primarily pugs dungeons, I’d say mesmer is extremely strong and needs nerfs if anything. As someone who does sPvP or WvW or whatever you might have different opinions but Anet needs to balance the class across all modes, with the current design they can’t buff the mesmer for PvP without making it broken in PvE and vice versa.
Why not? They have already done with Phantasms HP pool. Why not with their attacks?
Back on track
I haven’t crunched numbers here… but would phantasms hit harder with 6 points in domination (with empowered illusions) and 6 in duelling (with phantasmal fury) or with 4 in dom (still empowered illusions), 4 in dueling (phant. fury) and 6 in inspiration for phantasmal strength?
I am testing a 6/6/0/2/0 versus a 4/4/0/6/0 and the feeling is that besides me doing more damage (quite obviously) even phantasms are hitting harder. Just a feeling?
Also, can someone elaborate how the two builds would compare to a 2/4/0/5/3?
talking about pvp
the three builds always have phant. traits
not considering other traits which could increase phant. damage (i.e. vuln on daze)
So to cut it short… in a perfect scenario which build would raise phant. damage to the highest?
6/6/0/2/0 will have 9.1% more sustained dps than 4/4/0/6/0.
6/6/0/2/0 will have 9.9% more sustained dps than 2/5/0/5/3.
6/6/0/2/0 will have 7.0% less sustained dps than 6/4/0/0/4.
ps: this is combined damage meaning phantasms + you constantly attacking with the sword. if you want phantasm only dps comparison then let me know.
Well I am glad the discussion has carried on. However my question was primarly for pvp and eventually wvw. But I guess the subject can also be moved to pve too, why not.
Certainly as someone who only plays PvE and primarily pugs dungeons, I’d say mesmer is extremely strong and needs nerfs if anything. As someone who does sPvP or WvW or whatever you might have different opinions but Anet needs to balance the class across all modes, with the current design they can’t buff the mesmer for PvP without making it broken in PvE and vice versa.
Why not? They have already done with Phantasms HP pool. Why not with their attacks?
Back on track
I haven’t crunched numbers here… but would phantasms hit harder with 6 points in domination (with empowered illusions) and 6 in duelling (with phantasmal fury) or with 4 in dom (still empowered illusions), 4 in dueling (phant. fury) and 6 in inspiration for phantasmal strength?
I am testing a 6/6/0/2/0 versus a 4/4/0/6/0 and the feeling is that besides me doing more damage (quite obviously) even phantasms are hitting harder. Just a feeling?
Also, can someone elaborate how the two builds would compare to a 2/4/0/5/3?
talking about pvp
the three builds always have phant. traits
not considering other traits which could increase phant. damage (i.e. vuln on daze)
So to cut it short… in a perfect scenario which build would raise phant. damage to the highest?
Edit: and which rune set to go with?
Maximum phantasm damage is 2/4/0/5/3 (or 2/4/0/4/4). Scholar runes are probably a little bit more damage, but Ranger will be very close behind (and provide more reflect damage for your wardens).
See the guide in my sig for more details. This is all assuming PvE, but it mostly holds for PvP as well (except for the nerfed berserker amulet, I guess)
@frifox
thank you for the fast answer. That is The perfect scenario and I apologise for mentioning that. But I also said pvp and as you know you cannot always be hitting the target, running, not always having 2, lets not mention 3, phantasms out.
My weapons choice is pistol and swordman. Yes, a phantasms only comparison would be really appreciated, thanks!
PS: no mantra trait, no sigils. For runes either pack or ranger
@maxinion
thank you for your input. I will check the link in your sig. As I said I’m concerned with pvp. I know about iwarden being a hard hitting panthasm but… doing some tests first. Will check how he permorms later
PS: what do you mean zerker amulet nerfed? because of ferocity perhaps?
@frifox
thank you for the fast answer. That is The perfect scenario and I apologise for mentioning that. But I also said pvp and as you know you cannot always be hitting the target, running, not always having 2, lets not mention 3, phantasms out.
My weapons choice is pistol and swordman. Yes, a phantasms only comparison would be really appreciated, thanks!
@maxinion
thank you for your input. I will check the link in your sig. As I said I’m concerned with pvp. I know about iwarden being a hard hitting panthasm but… doing some tests first. Will check how he permorms later
PS: what do you mean zerker amulet nerfed? because of ferocity perhaps?
Sword/pistol and sword/sword is perfectly compatible with the builds I mentioned— you’ll just want to replace Inspiration VIII with something else (maybe defensive).
I just mentioned the Berserker’s amulet because it converts some portion of what should be an offensive stat to vitality instead, preventing you from running “full” glass cannon. So the numbers from PvE won’t be 100% applicable, but whatever is highest damage should still be more or less consistent.
Certainly as someone who only plays PvE and primarily pugs dungeons, I’d say mesmer is extremely strong and needs nerfs if anything. As someone who does sPvP or WvW or whatever you might have different opinions but Anet needs to balance the class across all modes, with the current design they can’t buff the mesmer for PvP without making it broken in PvE and vice versa.
I do not think you play mesmer if you believe that clones are extremely strong and do a lot of DPS on their own:
@frifox
thank you for the fast answer. That is The perfect scenario and I apologise for mentioning that. But I also said pvp and as you know you cannot always be hitting the target, running, not always having 2, lets not mention 3, phantasms out.
My weapons choice is pistol and swordman. Yes, a phantasms only comparison would be really appreciated, thanks!
PS: no mantra trait, no sigils. For runes either pack or ranger
Assuming you are running Berserker jewel & Ranger runes and have Dominaion IX and Dueling II equipped. PvP environment with no might, against a standard decap engi with no protection (3,063 armor).
Expected damage per unload.
6/6/0/2/0
Swordsman (base): 1,548 direct + 215 bleed = 1,763 unload
Swordsman (crit): 3,196 direct + 215 bleed = 3,411 unload
Duelist (base): 1,764 direct + 1,717 bleed = 3,481 unload
Duelist (crit): 3,642 direct + 1,717 bleed = 5,359 unload
4/4/0/6/0
Swordsman (base): 1,691 direct + 186 bleed = 1,877 unload
Thank you frifox sooo much I think this answer my question:
6/6/0/2/0 gives better damage to myself and still good phantasms damage.
4/4/0/6/0 gives a better phantasm damage but I will do less damage.
Combining the two sources of damage 6/6/0/2/0 ends up being better.
So the feeling I had was correct.
Also, using both swordman and duelist I think is a good choice. So far so good.
Anyhow, as I already posted earlier, do you have a formula to calculate phantasms damage that factores in power, precision, fury and eventually attack rate?
