Guild Wars 2

Anyone else think these 2 weapons are dying to become Condition weapons? i think if fixed they would surely fix (if done right) the weakness of Mesmer Condition builds? Sword+Focus seem pretty much perfect for power builds. i think with a few tweaks Scepter+Torch could become just as strong for Condition builds.

What do you guys think?

Two of the three scepter skills apply damaging conditions. The two torch skills apply burning and confusion respectively. I am curious what you would change.

Fix Auto attack, speed it up abit maybe add a condition or 2 to the chain other classes do it with auto so why not us? Fix Confusing Images to easily dodged, maybe increase duration by a few seconds. Fix iMage as well make it so that it can bounce multiple times on same ally/target. increase Confusion duration to 4-5seconds and increase projectile speed

These would be a nice a nice start.

They are already very strong condition weapons. In what way aren’t they condition weapons? Sure they can work in a power build, just like a sword can work in a condition build, but at their core, they are condition weapons. The one thing I would change with scepter is the autoattack, to make it a bit faster and not generate useless scepter clones. On torch, I would add burning or chill to the current phantasm’s autoattack. However, I think condition mesmers are already quite strong in WvW.

Please, enlighten me as to what “the weakness” of mesmer condition builds is. In my WvW condition build, I have stealth, significant access to protection and regeneration, decent condition burst through torment and Confusing Images, good condition removal, and good sustained damage and defense from staff. The only things missing are out of combat movement speed and some sort of cripple/immobilize to stop runners. I highly doubt that either scepter 1 or torch 5 could help with the movement speed issue, and I doubt that scepter 1 could apply movement impairing effects without being incredibly broken. I also wouldn’t want to mess with the other scepter/torch skills because as they say, “why fix something that’s not broken?”

Please, tell me why you think scepter and torch aren’t condition weapons. I would love to hear your suggestions on how you would improve them in a balanced manner.

Edit: Started typing this before you posted your above reply. In regard to your reply, I agree about the scepter autoattack. As for Confusing Images, why do you want it easier to dodge? I’m not following your syntax on that one. I also agree that iMage should have a faster projectile and stronger conditions (though maybe not necessarily confusion), but it can bounce to the same target more than once. The wiki is incorrect in claiming that it can’t.

Palu.3405:

Please, tell me why you think scepter and torch aren’t condition weapons. I would love to hear your suggestions on how you would improve them in a balanced manner.

Already have, sure they are decent but they arent exactly great either. Slow Auto atatck, both on projectile speed and cast time is kind of annoying, wouldnt be to bad having the 2nd and 3rd causing conditions and/or make the clones DO something i doubt a Staff Clone sort of thing would work but maybe there attacks could cause a condition as well

Confusing Images is just to easily to dodge. A few more seconds of confusion wouldnt hurt being that it isnt the strongest condition out there.

iCounter i would would be better as an aura, so that we can run or attack at the same time, 2 seconds of having to stay still is like putting a target on us, the fact that you have to also wait after they hit before moving otherwise the torment wont proc on them is kind of annoying

however, the biggest weakness is iMage, it just well – it sucks. Will only hit a target once making IE useless in 1Vs1 fights, the Confusion duration is no where near long enough and the projectile speed is to slow. I wouldnt say they need huge buffs or changes, just a few tweaks here and there

Already have, sure they are decent but they arent exactly great either. Slow Auto atatck, both on projectile speed and cast time is kind of annoying, wouldnt be to bad having the 2nd and 3rd causing conditions and/or make the clones DO something i doubt a Staff Clone sort of thing would work but maybe there attacks could cause a condition as well

They clones do cause conditions. When they crit, they inflict bleed because of the sharper images trait. Beyond that, the clone spam of Scepter 1 lets condition Mesmers make use of the apply conditions on death traits as a mechanic to control a fight.

TIFour.1076:

They clones do cause conditions. When they crit, they inflict bleed because of the sharper images trait. Beyond that, the clone spam of Scepter 1 lets condition Mesmers make use of the apply conditions on death traits as a mechanic to control a fight.

It shouldn’t need a trait, the Clones from Staff dont need trait to cause conditions or boons, so why should Scepter clones? Not really with how long the cast time is, people can keep moving and have little/no affect from the on death traits and again those traits would affect the staff clones as well even if the staff doesnt spam clones DE, PR, Mirror Images and other ways can still cause the same affect

Take a look at Necromancer Scepter for example

Necromancer Scepter Auto Attack Chain = 1.5seconds, 8seconds of Bleeding, 4seconds of Poison

Mesmer scepter Auto Attack Chain = 2seconds 1 clone

So in the time it takes Mesmer Scepter to create 4 clones to get some of the conditions from the traits Necromancer Auto attacking would give 48seconds of Bleeding (which stack intensity – upto 6 stacks) and 24seconds of Poison while Memser would get a random condition, Cripple and Confusion if they have all been traited for and thats without taking any Necroamncer traits – you could take 33% extra condition duration for Scepter and 66% chance on critical to cause even more bleeding

A ‘condition’ weapon kills variety. All weapons need to fulfill at least a couple roles

Since mesmers only got 2 main-hand weapons (sword and scepter), I rather have them utilizing both power and condition damage. The sword’s more power oriented, yes, but it can still do in condition builds and the scepter’s more condition oriented, but can work in power builds.

I think Anet should give the autoattack scepter some sort of condition similar to how the MH sword gets vulnerability. Perhaps weakness, chilled, crippled, or even confusion (like what they did back in beta 1). Confusing Images could have a speed up animation.

I use Scep+Torch in a condition build and do just fine. I wouldn’t mind them increased a bit but as they are right now I am rockn. ^^

The scepter auto attack chain is complete garbage. It is absurdly slow, gets slower with range, and produces completely useless clones that do nothing.

Confusing images is also bad, as it is excruciatingly slow and obvious.

The iMage is an incredibly bad skill, one of the worst in the game.

These three things need to be changed and improved.

In general though, Mesmer condition builds suffer from a lack of direct condition pressure. The vast majority of our condition pressure relies on indirect means of application: clone deaths and the scepter block. While sharper images and staff clones do help, by themselves the condition pressure is very low. I do enjoy clone death play, and it works exceedingly well in small areas, but in more mobile fights such as almost anything in wvw, the potential condition pressure you can apply drops precipitously.

I get that you’re upset, but every time I see you post in any thread it’s about how this is useless or that is too weak.

If it’s that non-enjoyable, maybe don’t play it? Sounds like you’re frustrating yourself. :S

They are great condition weapons as is. I don’t understand why you want to change them. What need’s to be fixed?

All range weapons have some limitations. Unfortunately, the scepter’s are adverse to the mesmer’s mobile nature. I swear, confusing images takes so long your opponent has time to make a sandwich and be back in time to dodge.
… but at least they’ll bite into that sandwich and find out they forgot the bacon. Everyone knows you can’t have a sandwich without bacon.

On death traits should be a bonus, not the only ways of applying conditions. Confusing images is to eazy to dodge. iCounter is wasted if you dont get hit. Auto attack is insanely slow and others nothing other then a aclone with itself is nothing but fodder for on death traits with no conditions on the auto attack chain, no conditions on clone attack. iMag is a joke and totally ignored as its no threat what so ever

In WvW, I enjoy using them for Illusionary Counter and The Prestige, but I do find that Ether bolt, Confusing Images and Phantasmal Mage contribute very little to my condition build comparatively.

I’d just like to see Ether clones given a base function in a similar way to staff and sword clones and Confusing Images and Illusionary Mage a condition duration buff so confusion becomes a threat to super skill spammers once again.

Edit: I do like the idea of Illusionary Mage applying chilled too, even if it’s just for 1 second.

What you, like almost all mesmers on this forum don’t seem to understand is that all things, whether it be spike damage, or conditions, come from our clones. Our weapons provide half of any equation. The clones and related traits, the rest.

Too bad this game does not have a method to record damage sources. Then this thread would be a lot more easy to convince.

basically he is right. but once upon a time moses came down to anet showed em carved capslock in stone “THOU SHALL NOT DENY SHATTER”.

i dont expect any major change in mesmer design in future, except halfarsed downgrades based on 1vs1 related cries

i for myself would repeatedly consider to change scepter 1 with 3 balance it, so its somehow the 1hand version of the greatsword. plus maybe the fact that then scepter would be able to generate more confusion.

btw the description of actual autoattack is like this:
Shoot a bolt of energy at your target.
Shoot a second bolt of energy at your target.
Shoot out a third bolt of energy that damages your target

and if thats not enough it creates a clone that
Shoot out bolts of energy

omg awesome…design
reminds me of us commercial

HEY JOEE LOOK AT THIS aMAAZING CUP. u can HOLD IT. and THATS NTO ALL JOE.
u can hold it wth YOUR LEFT AND YOUR RIGHT HAAAND, JOEEE!

OHH REALLY? WOOOW.

compare it with other professions scepter abilities and traits too
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scepter#Mesmer

I’m happy with my scepter/torch and staff build with Prismatic Understanding and letting the clones do the work on their deaths. I may not be a murder machine, but I do cause no small amount of grief to people chasing me around. It’s extremely survivable, but yeah I miss dependable swiftness something fierce.

A while back I posted some suggestions regarding moving traits around and improving/adding new ones. I still think that the scepter trait should not be in Inspiration. There are no synergies besides clone generation for shatters but this also applies to two other trait lines. I’d like to see…

Scepter
- Scepter trait moved to domination
- #1.2 applying 1 stack for confusion
- #2.2 changed from blind to daze

As a result the scepter would be more appealing for either power builds (since domination offers +power), condition builds (because of the additional confusion and since domination also provides +condition duration and the scepter being the only weapon of the mesmer which applies conditions which last long"ish") AND interrupt builds (additional daze which synergizes with traits in domination and duelling).

Torch
- Torch trait moved to illusion
- Add #4.2 which can trigger the blast of the torch manually
- Improve #5

I think the torch fits into the illusions because of stealth, blind (see other traits) and the confusion provided through the iMage. Illusions provides +condition damage for prestige and iMage. Furthermore, there are traits which add to confusions or blind. Of course, some traits might have to be moved so they can be used in a build.

With those two changes it will be a lot easier to create condition focussed builds since the required weapon traits are placed in appropriate trait lines.

Ross Biddle.2367:

What you, like almost all mesmers on this forum don’t seem to understand is that all things, whether it be spike damage, or conditions, come from our clones. Our weapons provide half of any equation. The clones and related traits, the rest.

Okay, lets take a look at Mesmer clones

Staff Clones = Conditions, Boons and damage
Sword Clones = Damage + Vul
Scepter Clones = Damage
Greatsword Clones = Damagex3

Now our auto attacks for Staff and Sword for us does the same thing as the clones – minus the sword clones dont strip a boon (i think) Greatsword clones just do damage as well but its x3 per an attack and at range.

Then you have the Bleeding trait which is better for Greatsword then the Scepter, so i think that is why the greatsword doesnt get anything else, though Staff gets that plus the normal conditions that they give

You also have the fact that ALL clones from ALL weapons give the same on death trait bonuses, so why is that the Scepter auto attack and the Scepter Clones offer NOTHING else and thats the point if “The clones and related traits, the rest.” is true then we are surely losing out with the Scepter seeing as the Auto attack offers nothing and the clones offer nothing – Sure its nice that if creates clones but thats all it does on death traits dont always work when someone is moving, out of range and such

hardloop von edgehoven.8512:

compare it with other professions scepter abilities and traits too
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scepter#Mesmer

I think out of the “caster” classes (so ignoring Guardian) i think Mesmer has the worst Scepter skills part of the problem being thakittens a mix of a condition and power weapon, look at Necromancer Scepter that is a REAL condition based weapon.

We have the Sword for a Melee power weapon so why isn’t the scepter turned into a REAL condition weapon. It’s pathetic that the Necromancer chain is FASTER and offers way more in terms of conditions, as shown in a poast above injust how much condition the auto attack from Necromancer offers in the same amount of time it would take Mesmer Auto attack create 4 clones (to get the on death traits) is a joke.

Imagine if iCounter was turned into a Grasping Dead AoE style Torment dealer rather then just its current state thakittens.

The Scepter could be SO much btter NOT overpowered just better condition weapon but the problem is Anet doesnt know what it wants the class to be, doesnt know what they even want some of the weapons to be.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Ross Biddle.2367:

What you, like almost all mesmers on this forum don’t seem to understand is that all things, whether it be spike damage, or conditions, come from our clones. Our weapons provide half of any equation. The clones and related traits, the rest.

Okay, lets take a look at Mesmer clones

Staff Clones = Conditions, Boons and damage
Sword Clones = Damage + Vul
Scepter Clones = Damage
Greatsword Clones = Damagex3

Now our auto attacks for Staff and Sword for us does the same thing as the clones – minus the sword clones dont strip a boon (i think) Greatsword clones just do damage as well but its x3 per an attack and at range.

Then you have the Bleeding trait which is better for Greatsword then the Scepter, so i think that is why the greatsword doesnt get anything else, though Staff gets that plus the normal conditions that they give

You also have the fact that ALL clones from ALL weapons give the same on death trait bonuses, so why is that the Scepter auto attack and the Scepter Clones offer NOTHING else and thats the point if “The clones and related traits, the rest.” is true then we are surely losing out with the Scepter seeing as the Auto attack offers nothing and the clones offer nothing – Sure its nice that if creates clones but thats all it does on death traits dont always work when someone is moving, out of range and such

Can’t say I was referring at all to scepter clones lack of “doing anything”. Obviously they could stand to get a feature. In fact I’d like to see scepter clones transfer 1 condition on them to their target. Clones pick up a lot of collateral conditions, and live more than long enough to attack a few times before they die. Good chance to send those conditions back to their target.

Now THATS a cool condition based clone, unique in the current drab “clone applies shiz” mesmer weapon ideas.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Can’t say I was referring at all to scepter clones lack of “doing anything”. Obviously they could stand to get a feature. In fact I’d like to see scepter clones transfer 1 condition on them to their target. Clones pick up a lot of collateral conditions, and live more than long enough to attack a few times before they die. Good chance to send those conditions back to their target.

Now THATS a cool condition based clone, unique in the current drab “clone applies shiz” mesmer weapon ideas.

Maybe this would be to overpowered – How about when they die ALL conditions they have on them + 1 on Mesmer gets transferred to the target? as well as the on death traits lol

I love that they added torment to mesmer but they went about it the wrong way.

Change scepter 2.2 to cause torment and the block to cause blind or daze and that would be worlds better. Why would I want to stand still just to apply torment. When the clone spawns I am not teleported back a great enough distance (or at all) for the torment to do whakittens suppose to do, so it seems pointless. At least if it was added to the second part of skill 2 I could apply it from range while someone is running so it can tick for some decent damage.

Fair point Nebiros, it’d make more sense to simply swap the effects. Slightly nerfs Blinding Befuddlement, but adds more control to both effects. And a Blind on the otherweise defensive #2 makes more sense.

Nebiros.5612:

I love that they added torment to mesmer but they went about it the wrong way.

Change scepter 2.2 to cause torment and the block to cause blind or daze and that would be worlds better. Why would I want to stand still just to apply torment. When the clone spawns I am not teleported back a great enough distance (or at all) for the torment to do whakittens suppose to do, so it seems pointless. At least if it was added to the second part of skill 2 I could apply it from range while someone is running so it can tick for some decent damage.

No thanks. I don’t want to be at range if I can help it (want me, my enemy, and all my clones in a nice compact little space, thanks). Here’s a better solution to your problem. 5 stacks of torment on the block/riposte, and 3 stacks of torment on 2.2 instead of blind.

All it would take is MINOR changes and the weapons would become great, rather then meh.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Scepter-2/first#post2629621 for my ideas on the scepter. For the torch, you should be able to manually trigger the blast part. For the phanstasm mage, it should do a pulsing aoe around the target, with increased damage and giving confusion to enemies, retaliation to allys.

I agree both weapons should be improved. And I also think that there are minor changes that could be done without too much time investment that would do so, such as

- Add a short confusion to autoattack 1st and 2nd skill or a longer one to 3rd. Make it faster too.
- Confusing Images’ cast time should be more or less equal to GS1.
- Swap Illusionary Conunter’s blind on block with Conuterspell’s torment and make it an aura so we can still cast.
- Swap burning and blind on The Prestige so it adds some offensive power right when you need it and some defense when you get out of stealth.
- Make iMage more relevant by adding damage, shorten its cooldown or making it hit faster.

Right now I feel confusion applied by an engineer is faster and more reliable than with a mesmer.

Scepter is ok now. Torch seriously needs rework. It’s either reducing the cooldown or make burn lasts longer and iMage proc more stacks of confusion. Torch right now is just a complementary weapon — i.e. crap.

Torch was quite alright when it could “carry” a blast finisher. For a while you could trigger Prestige in a field, it’d recognize the finisher, but not discharge it. Then when the burn triggered, the finisher would also go off.

This allowed for some fun combos, like carrying a finisher through a portal. Sadly, nerfed.

Pollux.3247:

[…]
- Swap Illusionary Conunter’s blind on block with Conuterspell’s torment and make it an aura so we can still cast.
- Swap burning and blind on The Prestige so it adds some offensive power right when you need it and some defense when you get out of stealth.
[…]

I would not like a blind or daze on block. The effect on block is supposed to be more powerful than the default #x.2 skill. As a result, the applied torment stacks would have to be nerfed, probably making them useless. Furthermore, blind and daze are much more situational than torment or confusion making the timing very important. Block + blind would also be quite redundant. I do like the aura idea though.

I also have to disagree with the prestige suggestion. If you use prestige in a defensive way – or even for escaping – you will want your blind on cast so you are not hurt while in stealth. This is very handy since certain skills will still hit you if they were cast before you entered stealth. Blind when leaving stealth would not benefit an escape since you probably might be too far away to apply the blind. I personally really enjoy Torch#4, Sw#3.1, swap with Sw.3.2, Sw2 + burn from prestige for burst. This would not work anymore if your suggestion was implement although it is a very effective way of dealing damage. Burn on stealth is only fun for trolling people or maybe phantasm builds which certainly do not need any improvements in the damage department. Of course, this is more from a PvP/WvW perspective.

Now your just talking crazy.

TIFour.1076:

Too bad this game does not have a method to record damage sources. Then this thread would be a lot more easy to convince.

djtool.8372:

Now your just talking crazy.

TIFour.1076:

Too bad this game does not have a method to record damage sources. Then this thread would be a lot more easy to convince.

Have you seen the “Combat Log” its a JOKE, it might as well not be in the game for how useful it is.

Xaylin.1860:

I would not like a blind or daze on block. The effect on block is supposed to be more powerful than the default #x.2 skill. As a result, the applied torment stacks would have to be nerfed, probably making them useless. Furthermore, blind and daze are much more situational than torment or confusion making the timing very important. Block + blind would also be quite redundant. I do like the aura idea though.

I also have to disagree with the prestige suggestion. If you use prestige in a defensive way – or even for escaping – you will want your blind on cast so you are not hurt while in stealth. This is very handy since certain skills will still hit you if they were cast before you entered stealth. Blind when leaving stealth would not benefit an escape since you probably might be too far away to apply the blind. I personally really enjoy Torch#4, Sw#3.1, swap with Sw.3.2, Sw2 + burn from prestige for burst. This would not work anymore if your suggestion was implement although it is a very effective way of dealing damage. Burn on stealth is only fun for trolling people or maybe phantasm builds which certainly do not need any improvements in the damage department. Of course, this is more from a PvP/WvW perspective.

That’s a well-thought answer and a good one to read. I guess my perspective comes more from PvE really. Having torment more easily applied would definitely help scepter’s desirability imo.