Guild Wars 2

What are your thoughts?

Personally I’m sick of my useful clones being replaced by scepter clones because they are worse than every other clone we have access to:

Staff clones : Uber condition applications.
Greatsword clones : 3 x tick from range is good for applying bleed on crit proc.
1h sword : same as greatsword, high attack rate means decent bleed procs. Plus boon removal.
Scepter : Nothing.

If I could, I would remove the final part of the scepter chain from my bar and only use the first two ‘regular’ swings.

Also it replace m.y phantasm. I hate it.
Just give me a decent autoattack ( like guardian scepter) and I will be happy.

The scepter clone’s short comings is a point acknowledged by Jon Peters in the December 10th update discussions. The scepter’s advantage is the fastest weapon clone generation, but the general uselessness of those clones continues to push people away from them.

They’re okay for clone-death builds, since the clones are spawned adjacent to the target, upping their likelihood of death. Swords are still more appealing since they give chase.

I think it was hoping to appeal to shatters. One problem with that is, from my experience, the average shatter player is… for lack of a better word, twitchy. They’re constantly pressing buttons. Their skill bars tend to look like a clock shop. Deceptive Evasion fits well into that frantic playstyle. Sitting through a 4 second auto-chain does not.

Look at it this way:

We complained that skill 1 on the scepter was kitten and the reason nobody really want to use it. Attack speed is slow and the clone is bad. The other 2 skills was fine.

Anets response was buffing the other skills.

And there you have it. Its never going to be fixed.

I just spent a good 50g on gearing Condi damage yesterday along with Scepter/Torch and I guess I should’ve tested it/watched videos first.

Scepter clone spawning I don’t actually mind that they don’t do much, but the fact that it takes a full cycle of slow auto-attack to spawn a clone that dies in 1-2 hits is pretty annoying.
The condi damage is so easily avoidable from Mesmer it’s a shame.

I hate it as well. I think maybe they could put a trait in that changes it or something.

Scepter would be really good for shatter builds if the autoattack (and the projectiles) wasn’t so dang slow. -_-

Zaxares.5419:

Scepter would be really good for shatter builds if the autoattack (and the projectiles) wasn’t so dang slow. -_-

The third attack should just be a semi-instant non-projectile like the ele scepter fire 1 skill. I actually want to use it for condition attrition builds, but it doesn’t work any better for that.

There is also a disadventage that hasn’t been mentioned yet: The auto attack allways waits for the projectile to hit before the chain continues. Means: melee = faster, range = slower attack speed. The timewarp also just increases the animation, but not the attack speed… It requires a new aa, definitly

The problem with scepter in shatter build is, that you have to wait a whole attack sequence until you finally spawn a clone. This fails hard.
You want your clone, you want your phantasm, a dodge and do your shatter. That takes about 2 sec for a full shatter.

With scepter, you will have to wait 4 sec to get a kitten clone out, spamming auto attack. Who wants that?

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Who wants that?

Ehm, me :P
I’m using a build than apply conditions on clone’s death, and scepter is perfect!
Scepter + dodgeroll + Mirror Images: Clones, clones everywhere…

Scepter already has a clone on the block, and I don’t think you need 2 on it. I think it would be a much more useful weapon if it had a couple conditions in the AA chain. Perhaps a Cripple and Confusion (with a faster attack speed) or even a burn on the 3rd part of the chain (if the attack rate stays the same)? Alternatively, you could just make its damage not suck.

Profano.9514:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Who wants that?

Ehm, me :P
I’m using a build than apply conditions on clone’s death, and scepter is perfect!
Scepter + dodgeroll + Mirror Images: Clones, clones everywhere…

You should read the first line of my post again. If you find the word “shatter” you are one step further to understand what’s going on im my post.

Profano… anything your scepter clones do on a condi build is done better by staff clones. Your scepter clones overwrite the more useful staff ones. That’s the problem.

The thing I hate the most about Scepter 1 is that it is tied to a very slow moving projectile that gets none of the benefits for actually being a projectile.

I would rather it was direct hit like necro’s Scepter 1 or channeled like ele’s Scepter Air 1.

The second thing I hate the most is that Malicious Sorcery is in Inspiration instead of in Illusion where it belongs.

Taldren.7523:

The second thing I hate the most is that Malicious Sorcery is in Inspiration instead of in Illusion where it belongs.

The answer to that seems to be (bold added for emphasis): [Edit: the attribution won’t work for some reason, but the quote is from Jon Peters in the Dec 10 preview thread.]

Scepter is still missing something but we don’t want to overload the autoattack as we think that promotes more mindless play and are trying to move away from builds that focus so much on the “1” skill. I feel like that scepter should be the tricksy defender that can stop enemies from attacking and defend allies, but maybe it’s single target nature is keeping that from working.

There seems to be some disparity between what the design team sees and what the player base sees when looking at the scepter.

If Jon Peter’s statement about the scepter is fitting, then its place is definitely in Inspiration. That’s the “support” tree, after all. But as the weapon stands, I don’t feel it’s accurate. It offers nothing to the team and is extremely straight-forward. Slog through slow and easily avoided #1 for clones (and nothing else), very good single-block with torment on #2, burst damage/confuse on #3.

Torment and confusion are both soft control. I suppose that’s what they’re leaning towards by stating that it defends allies from attack. In PvE, where Inspiration’s phantasm luv is king, that’s definitely not the case. The AI does not respond to these conditions in the slightest. There’s no reason they should. They’re already optimized to slog through it with their bloated health bars and slow avoidance-or-death attacks. If you want to control the AI, you have to do it with hard effects and make that decision for them. Or, as the current meta stands, just use the CC called DPS.

In PvP, you might get the desired effect, but there’s almost nothing else in Inspiration to support that kind of support/control. It’s healing, condition removal, and phantasm buffs. The focus reflects fit the theme, but both share the Master slot. Glamours can fit the bill, but not directly due to any of the Inspiration traits. We go into Dom and Illusions for those traits.

Or maybe they just needed a build that could sell their backlog of Apothecary gear.

fadeaway.2807:

Greatsword clones : 3 x tick from range is good for applying bleed on crit proc.

Should be removed. Just sayin.

Clones shouldn’t apply full conditions.

Clockwork Bard.3105:

Torment and confusion are both soft control. I suppose that’s what they’re leaning towards by stating that it defends allies from attack. In PvE, where Inspiration’s phantasm luv is king, that’s definitely not the case. The AI does not respond to these conditions in the slightest. There’s no reason they should. They’re already optimized to slog through it with their bloated health bars and slow avoidance-or-death attacks. If you want to control the AI, you have to do it with hard effects and make that decision for them. Or, as the current meta stands, just use the CC called DPS.

In PvP, you might get the desired effect, but there’s almost nothing else in Inspiration to support that kind of support/control. It’s healing, condition removal, and phantasm buffs. The focus reflects fit the theme, but both share the Master slot. Glamours can fit the bill, but not directly due to any of the Inspiration traits. We go into Dom and Illusions for those traits.

Or maybe they just needed a build that could sell their backlog of Apothecary gear.

It’s pure Academia … No one going for healing is going to take scepter as the line has nothing to do with condition or shatter meta. The only people that go deep Illusion are those that want the +15% damage on Phantasm builds.

In fact, the scepter is probably the only weapon Mesmer’s have that allow its condition meta to work. Staff is just blah.

Azathoth.2098:

Ether Bolt:
Shoot out a bolt of energy that explodes on impact and hits multiple foes.
Critical hits causes one stack of Bleeding.
(no chain-skills)

Please fix scepter !

Personally I would like to see a mirror of the necro Scepter (non-projectile direct attacks) but change the conditions to match the theme of the mesmer:

1/2 Ether Bolt: Torment (4 s)
1/2 Ether Blast: Confusion (4 s)
1/2 Ether Clone: Clone

Azathoth.2098:

Azathoth.2098:

Ether Bolt:
Shoot out a bolt of energy that explodes on impact and hits multiple foes.
Critical hits causes one stack of Bleeding.
(no chain-skills)

Omg. This. This so much.

That would be pretty sweet.

- remove clone from #1 chain
- reduce damage on #1 chain
- add condition damage to #1 chain, either confusion or from a random pool like staff.

That would fix it for me.

I’d set things up like this:
My chain:

1. 2 fast hits. the last one inflicts 2s bleed.
2. 2 fast hits. The last one inflicts 2s torment.
3. 1 strong hit that inflicts 3s confusion

My descriptions:

1. Create mirror shards to cut your enemy 1/2s cast.
2. Cut him even deeper with the shards 1/2s cast
3. Use your shards to create a clone and confuse your enemy. 3/4 cast

It could look like a little storm and also hit up to 3 enemys.

Result: in 1 3/4s you’d inflict 2s bleed, 2s torment and 3s confusion
Clones they’d inflict 2s bleed and 2s torment in 1s and had 4 chances to strike critical

Kaiyanwan.8521:

You should read the first line of my post again. If you find the word “shatter” you are one step further to understand what’s going on im my post.

I prefeer the scepter for clone generation with skill 1 and 2 even in shatter builds, because i can generate more clones. Just different playstyles, imho

fadeaway.2807:

Profano… anything your scepter clones do on a condi build is done better by staff clones. Your scepter clones overwrite the more useful staff ones. That’s the problem.

No sorry. I did a build based on CLONES DEATH (no shatter, they must be killed or replaced). I need quantity, not quality.

P.S. What is the difference between Scepter and Staff clones?

P.P.S. this attachment can be nice for the annoying clone generation?

Profano.9514:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

You should read the first line of my post again. If you find the word “shatter” you are one step further to understand what’s going on im my post.

I prefeer the scepter for clone generation with skill 1 and 2 even in shatter builds, because i can generate more clones. Just different playstyles, imho

fadeaway.2807:

Profano… anything your scepter clones do on a condi build is done better by staff clones. Your scepter clones overwrite the more useful staff ones. That’s the problem.

No sorry. I did a build based on CLONES DEATH (no shatter, they must be killed or replaced). I need quantity, not quality.

P.S. What is the difference between Scepter and Staff clones?

P.P.S. this attachment can be nice for the annoying clone generation?

The difference is that staff clones cast winds if chaos (your staff auto attack) which applies boons and conditons on bounce. Where as the scepter clones just cast ether bolt (damage).

WitchKing.5317:

The difference is that staff clones cast winds if chaos (your staff auto attack) which applies boons and conditons on bounce. Where as the scepter clones just cast ether bolt (damage).

Oh… yes.Thank you

I tried a scepter build a while back because I had read that confusion was not so good in PvE and wanted to check that out. I used Malicious Sorcery mostly and often had signet of domination, and I found the build did fine in general PvE and dungeon story modes, which I was doing then. I’ve stopped using it, but now that I look back at it, and in reading this thread, I think the Inspiration line that has Malicious Sorcery is a bit problematic.

The passive traits Vengeful Images, Phantasmal Healing and Phantasmal Strength all aid phantasms, but the scepter ATM is mainly a clone-producing weapon, so players run into the tactical problem of producing clones for shatter vs. phantasms that help players by remaining alive or by inflicting conditions when they die.

I think that if Malicious Sorcery were in a different line — say, Illusions — it might be easier to create builds that play to its strengths.

Torment is such a perfect soft-control ability for mesmer, but we have no means to apply it outside of a single block on scepter.

I’d like to see the following changes:
Dominaiton:
Illusions of Vulnerability – Change to Torment.
Dazzling – Change to Torment.
Rending Shatter – Change to Torment.
Wastrel’s Punishment – Your illusions cause Torment to foes around them when they are killed.

Swap Confusing Combatants with Shattered Strength and you will have a dedicated Torment line (Domination) and a dedicated Confusion line ( Illusions ).

/Shrug Makes sense to me.

Profano.9514:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

You should read the first line of my post again. If you find the word “shatter” you are one step further to understand what’s going on im my post.

I prefeer the scepter for clone generation with skill 1 and 2 even in shatter builds, because i can generate more clones. Just different playstyles, imho

fadeaway.2807:

Profano… anything your scepter clones do on a condi build is done better by staff clones. Your scepter clones overwrite the more useful staff ones. That’s the problem.

No sorry. I did a build based on CLONES DEATH (no shatter, they must be killed or replaced). I need quantity, not quality.

P.S. What is the difference between Scepter and Staff clones?

P.P.S. this attachment can be nice for the annoying clone generation?

That is a nice idea. I like the idea of giving mesmers a little aoe on the scepter.

I was sitting here thinking about this some more (waiting for other things to finish), and I’ve convinced myself the biggest problem with scepter #1 is simply the turnaround time to generate clones.

Right now, if you want to be a clone factory it is nearly mandatory to put 20 points into dueling in order to get clone-on-dodge. That is limiting to build diversity.

If scepter auto-attack were quick enough to generate clones, it would potentially become a viable alternative to Dueling X, which would open up greater build diversity for Mesmers.

Currently, if I want to run a shatter build, I have to run x/20/x/x/30, giving only 20 points to work with. Increasing clone generation on scepter 1, that would change to x/x/x/x/30, giving 40 points to work with.

This greatly opens up options for clone-death and shatter builds.

Here’s my two cents, from what i have seen you can have 2 phantoms and 1 clone out. The next summoned clone by auto attack 3 will destroy the clone first before a phantom. If instead you use Mirror Image the clone and the first phantom will die. So what does this mean?

Example build http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQRArf8clwzKq3UTqGZNJipCB3ZGJn0RqQpVmBudhA-w

Disclaimer This was just a made up build to be used as an example not to be used in SPVP, TPVP, or WVW.

If I summon iswordsman and image auto attack every 3 attacks is a random condition, confusion, and cripple. But Huston we have a problem! Huston the target has moved Please advise. I’m not sure if this is what Anet intended for the mesmer scepter or not. I do like the scepter as a weapon now that they decrease the cast times on 2 and 3. 10 stacks of torment for 6s, plus any stacks from sigils of tormenting Yum.

Ive found that when using debilitating dissipation trait on a phantasm spec, it adds some punch to the scepter auto. Basically by just maintaining 2 phantasms you can auto attack and the new clone will kill the old clone, giving bleed/weakness/vuln to enemies near it.

Scepter auto-clone generation is certainly a situational thing.

I play a clone-death-status build and for that reason I love Scepter clone generation. The clones appear exactly where I want them (on top of the enemy, regardless of my own position), and at a very sustainable rate. Sure, something like a couple of dodge-rolls with Deceptive Evasion or Mirror Images gets clones faster, but they pop at my position instead of the enemies’ and its more a “burst” generation, get a few clones fast but then you gotta wait for those sources to get active again (skill cooldown or stamina). And as someone said above, if you have 2 phantasms active and use Scepter then every shot causes the old clone to explode when its replaced by the new clone, so it basically just ends up adding status effects to every auto attack.

That said, the fact that the Scepter clone generation is only really useful for that type of build (or perhaps some shatter builds) is something that could be improved. Namely, the clones themselves could be improved to serve a better functionality other than JUST shatter / death fodder.

The problem there seems to be that clones use the auto-attack of the source weapon, which means Scepter clones obviously get the Scepter auto-attack. The main gimmick of the Scepter auto is clone generation, but clearly clones aren’t going to generate clones, so the gimmick is lost and they’re left with a lackluster attack with no special function at all.

It should be possible to give the clone a different auto-attack (the Trident clone’s auto-attack had different properties for a long time), so giving the clones a useful auto chain without making Scepter’s auto “too good” which apparently is something Anet is worried about, should be possible. Perhaps the Scepter clones should inflict a stack of Torment at the end of their auto-chain or something, in place of the clone generation. Or they could eliminate the chain, and make the clone simply attack somewhat fast with a single attack (maybe similar to that one Risen enemy that shoots the purple bolts somewhat fast). I’d prefer the former though, since the latter would just be making it similar to Greatsword clones.

Electro.4173:

Scepter auto-clone generation is certainly a situational thing.

I play a clone-death-status build and for that reason I love Scepter clone generation. The clones appear exactly where I want them (on top of the enemy, regardless of my own position), and at a very sustainable rate. Sure, something like a couple of dodge-rolls with Deceptive Evasion or Mirror Images gets clones faster, but they pop at my position instead of the enemies’ and its more a “burst” generation, get a few clones fast but then you gotta wait for those sources to get active again (skill cooldown or stamina). And as someone said above, if you have 2 phantasms active and use Scepter then every shot causes the old clone to explode when its replaced by the new clone, so it basically just ends up adding status effects to every auto attack.

That said, the fact that the Scepter clone generation is only really useful for that type of build (or perhaps some shatter builds) is something that could be improved. Namely, the clones themselves could be improved to serve a better functionality other than JUST shatter / death fodder.

The problem there seems to be that clones use the auto-attack of the source weapon, which means Scepter clones obviously get the Scepter auto-attack. The main gimmick of the Scepter auto is clone generation, but clearly clones aren’t going to generate clones, so the gimmick is lost and they’re left with a lackluster attack with no special function at all.

It should be possible to give the clone a different auto-attack (the Trident clone’s auto-attack had different properties for a long time), so giving the clones a useful auto chain without making Scepter’s auto “too good” which apparently is something Anet is worried about, should be possible. Perhaps the Scepter clones should inflict a stack of Torment at the end of their auto-chain or something, in place of the clone generation. Or they could eliminate the chain, and make the clone simply attack somewhat fast with a single attack (maybe similar to that one Risen enemy that shoots the purple bolts somewhat fast). I’d prefer the former though, since the latter would just be making it similar to Greatsword clones.

I really hate the fact that our clone generating weapon makes ranged clones … I need my fodder to run into the enemy for the traits to be useful.

If it’s gonna be a clone death weapon can we get better clone death related traits? Not to say they are bad, but I struggle to find a situation where I’d prefer being a clone death build over the others, on death traits feel very unique flavor where I take it to add some omph to a standard build cuz it hard counters something or helps me roam.

Or at least have the weapon accelerate it by each clone creating clones making tons of clones die endlessly.

This is all said in jest. Really though I just don’t see many good ideas revolving around it that don’t render something else redundant or aren’t OP.

Speaking of potentially OP, Since point for point it’s the lowest damage auto attack the mesmer has (next to staff and trident but they both drop condis, and screw underwater) Why not make it the only clone that does 100% of the mesmers stats in damage? and if it is OP the damage can be shaved over time. The sustain would be kinda nice and unlike the condi spam sustain this is at least mitigated by armor.

The most glaring error by far is the speed, it is what holds me back from really even wanting to use the weapon. The feel is so bad, while I wish it wasn’t so. I want to conduct my choir of illusions!

How about a combination of ideas?

The third hit spawns a clone, but it does NOT replace any other clone except itself (unless less than 3), allowing 3 + 1 which would count for shatter. In addition, the clone spawned shoot an Ether Nova or whatever that shreds the fabric of foes in an aoe, applying bleed. So in effect you would have a weapon that is suited for condi but also is slightly more versatile with shatters, to add to its defensive/tricky nature.