Guild Wars 2

For a long time, I’ve run a sword/pistol restorative mantras build. I just set up 3 iduelists and spam mantra of pain. For a long time, I’ve wanted to try the scepter, but never did because the auto attack produced a clone. That meant I would lose 1 iduelist. The question came up “Is scepter clone worth an iduelist”.

170% crit damage
200 × 8 iduelist damage over 6.5s 80% crit
sharper images
~ 1stack bleed over 5sec over a long period of time = 5stacks of bleed over 1sec
102 bleed damage per stack

iduelist
~ ((200 × 0.2) + (200 × 1.7) x 0.8) x 8 / 6.5
~ 384 dps
with sharper images
~ (102 × 5)bleed damage x 0.8chance x (8 attacks / 6.5 sec)
~ 502 dps
Total ~ 886 dps

300 300 450 scepter damage over 2 sec

scepter
~ ((1050 × 0.2) + (1050 × 1.7 × 0.8)) / 2 (EDIT 0.8 → 0.6)
~ 819dps (EDIT 745)
with clone and sharper images
~ (102 × 5) bleed damage x 0.8 (EDIT 0.8 -> 0.6) chance x (1 attack / 0.5 sec) (EDIT 0.5 -> 2)
~ 816 dps (EDIT 204) (EDIT 153)
Total ~ 1635 dps (EDIT 1023) (EDIT 898)

Is this right? I actually lose 749 (EDIT 137) (EDIT 86) dps trying to keep up 3 iduelsits instead of 2 iduelist + 1 scepter clone?

Should you be factoring in your sword auto attack?

He’s comparing Scepter/Pistol where you autoattack and where you don’t. If you don’t autoattack then you can have 3 iDuelist. In which case the obvious statement is…

Are you surprised that the build where you attack does more damage?

What I would be thinking is you should compare Sword/Pistol to Scepter/Pistol – where you keep 3 iDuelist out with the Sword/Pistol, and only two with the Scepter/Pistol.

Think you’ll find then that the Sword/Pistol dominates.

Here’s what really surprised me. The scepter clone with sharper images is roughly the same dps as the iduelist with sharper images in a longer fight.

On the other hand, scepter clones spawn at your target giving them a higher chance of getting erased.

EDIT Changes some numbers to reflect Pyroatheist’s input.

I think the point is that you’re never in melee range with S/P PvE. You never get to use Sword auto-attack.

Scepter is our only ranged MH weapon.

There’s a few glaring mistakes in your calculations. First, you have the scepter clone attacking at a rate of 2 attacks per second. This should be slower by at least a factor of 3.

Additionally, you appear to be going off of the tooltip as to the damage of the iDuelist. Unless I am greatly mistaken, the damage per shot is significantly higher than 200. 200 may be the value with steady weapons, but when you get real weapons, the iDuelist damage skyrockets, while the scepter clone damage doesn’t change at all.

Pyroatheist.9031:

There’s a few glaring mistakes in your calculations. First, you have the scepter clone attacking at a rate of 2 attacks per second. This should be slower by at least a factor of 3.

Additionally, you appear to be going off of the tooltip as to the damage of the iDuelist. Unless I am greatly mistaken, the damage per shot is significantly higher than 200. 200 may be the value with steady weapons, but when you get real weapons, the iDuelist damage skyrockets, while the scepter clone damage doesn’t change at all.

I’m basing everything on wiki and my actual damage. Wiki says the clone uses the actual ether bolt, which has a 0.5 attack speed. I would like to know a clones actual attack speed.

I just timed it to 1 attack every 2 sec (i get 3 attacks in before the clone attacks). It still favors scepter by 137 dps.

Seetoo.9316:

Pyroatheist.9031:

There’s a few glaring mistakes in your calculations. First, you have the scepter clone attacking at a rate of 2 attacks per second. This should be slower by at least a factor of 3.

Additionally, you appear to be going off of the tooltip as to the damage of the iDuelist. Unless I am greatly mistaken, the damage per shot is significantly higher than 200. 200 may be the value with steady weapons, but when you get real weapons, the iDuelist damage skyrockets, while the scepter clone damage doesn’t change at all.

I’m basing everything on wiki and my actual damage. Wiki says the clone uses the actual ether bolt, which has a 0.5 attack speed. I would like to know a clones actual attack speed.

I just timed it to 1 attack every 2 sec (i get 3 attacks in before the clone attacks). It still favors scepter by 137 dps.

Your calculations are extremely unclear. What is favoring scepter by 137 dps, and what is it being favored over? The duelist does far far far more damage than the scepter clones. It does more bleeds per second, and it also does heft damage, while the clone does absolutely nothing.

Yeah, I’m having a hard time following his format as well, but what he seems to be saying is that using a sword/pistol with 3 duelists (and not auto-attacking due to range?) yields roughly 137 less DPS than using a scepter/pistol with 2 duelists plus auto-attacking with a scepter.

I didn’t bother to check if his calcs were correct b/c even if they are, there is much more to using the weapon than just static attacks w/o weapon swaps, utilities, shatters, etc, so the situation isn’t representative of anything outside autopilot PVE content.

Gaiawolf.8261:

Yeah, I’m having a hard time following his format as well, but what he seems to be saying is that using a sword/pistol with 3 duelists (and not auto-attacking due to range?) yields roughly 137 less DPS than using a scepter/pistol with 2 duelists plus auto-attacking with a scepter.

I didn’t bother to check if his calcs were correct b/c even if they are, there is much more to using the weapon than just static attacks w/o weapon swaps, utilities, shatters, etc, so the situation isn’t representative of anything outside autopilot PVE content.

That seems like a plausible situation. It would be nice to know what he was actually talking about though.

Well I was under the impression that no clones did any damage (apart from conditions and about 3 damage max).

Further more it’s kind of a moot point, why not just use 3 iduelists and the scepters auto attack, this would be higher than both the calulations above. Remember that a phantasm will always override and clone and a clone will never replace a phantasm (at least in theory).

I’m currently trying out a scepter/pistol build and as far as I’m concerned the scepter clones are totally useless lol.

EDIT: I’ve tried all clones (staff, scepter,sword anyway) to see how high I can stack the bleeds with Sharper images and sword is the best because it has the higher hit rate, staff clones are good but they are slower and the standard bleed you get isn’t quite enough as it gives burning and vuln also, scepter was much slower but that might have been because they are slower to get out.

Ravbek.7938:

EDIT: I’ve tried all clones (staff, scepter,sword anyway) to see how high I can stack the bleeds with Sharper images and sword is the best because it has the higher hit rate, staff clones are good but they are slower and the standard bleed you get isn’t quite enough as it gives burning and vuln also, scepter was much slower but that might have been because they are slower to get out.

The GS clones hit three times per attack cycle, so therefore has the highest hit rate of any weapon.

To OP: The scepter to me is a more tanking weapon, where you are able to provide the target with more targets to hit, so on death traits are favourable. As well as being able to punish your target for attacking the clones you produce you can shatter them for interrupts and other effects. Additionally the “on death” traits affect the clone should they be destroyed by creating another clone at the 3 illusion cap.

All in all, the sword is a dps weapon no doubt about it. The scepter is more of a utility weapon which favours a more tankier playstyle and I can recommend trying scepter/sword for a tanky mesmer.

I guess it boils down to the MMO age old argument, Survivability vs Damage per Second. Does one burn bright and burn out fast like a firework? or does one burn dimmer but for longer like a candle. As we all know, there’s a place for fireworks and there’s a place for candles.

A common misstake among mesmer is that they focus on the weapn dmg. The base wep dmg is only a margain of our dmg and the shattering, confusion, retaliation etc is also part of our totla dmg. Also alot of our dmg inc abilitys is based on eachother like might on shatters etc.

One thing that talk againt scepter in anything exept a ocational condition spec burst is the fact it have no on demand clone generation. Yes its give a clone every auto but its not on demand. Even if the clone generation was dubbeled you still would not get 1 clone at a time and not on demand.

In any PvP situation you want as big controll as possible, just look at signet of inspiration. Breefly it look good, 1 boon every 10 sec, spread al boons on use. The random part of this thu make the signets passive close to usless in any pvp situation,

Now instead theorycraft with me here. Imagine if the signet instead would granted specifyed boons abilitys but with a 20 sec cd. On heal activation say protection and fury. Another 2 on heal say swiftness and regen. Now suddenly as you notice the signet is close to OP, this as you can apply the buffs you want on demand, getting attacked? dodge for protection and fury, need a speed boost? Use heal. This also lock up rune situation for mesmers as we with the signet would get the speed on demand etc etc.

Exact the same we have on scepter, the clone is not on deamnd. Need a fast mindwrack with 1 clone to burst? well with a scepter you can happily autoattack 3 times then u can do wm. With a sword, staff and even GS you can istead create a clone and use MW.

/Osicat

Darkwolf.6291:

He’s comparing Scepter/Pistol where you autoattack and where you don’t. If you don’t autoattack then you can have 3 iDuelist. In which case the obvious statement is…

Are you surprised that the build where you attack does more damage?

What I would be thinking is you should compare Sword/Pistol to Scepter/Pistol – where you keep 3 iDuelist out with the Sword/Pistol, and only two with the Scepter/Pistol.

Think you’ll find then that the Sword/Pistol dominates.

This guy got it. The scepter auto produces a clone no matter what. That means you
can’t have 3 iduelists and auto attack too. The 2 situations are auto attack + clone + 2 iduelists vs 3 iduelists. Taking out common factors leaves auto attack + clone vs 1 iduelist. Plugging in the numbers (and Pyroatheist’s comment about clone attack speed) I got auto attack + clone > 1 iduelist by 137 dps.

I took numbers (rounded off obviously) from a field test (cuz I never trusted tooltip numbers) and compared.

On another note, If you add restorative mantras (I mentioned using it in OP) to the mix, that dps loss of 137 with 3 iduelists nets me 520 hps spamming mantra of pain.

I was under the impression that clones don’t replace phantasms, so if you have three iduelists out….

Clones will prioritize replacing other clones before replacing phantasms. If there is no other clone out, they will replace a phantasm.

Scepter clones are shadder fodder, nothing really more.

Staff / GS if you just want to dps a boss. Spam iwarlocks and iphantasams and autoattack with gs. With right setup those warlocks crit 5-9k each. GS clones are also superior since they attack 3 times, thus stacking more bleed than others.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Staff / GS if you just want to dps a boss. Spam iwarlocks and iphantasams and autoattack with gs. With right setup those warlocks crit 5-9k each. GS clones are also superior since they attack 3 times, thus stacking more bleed than others.

And none of that matters because we are optimizing/comparing the dps of a scepter/pistol build, not GS/staff.

Seetoo.9316:

I’ve wanted to try the scepter, but never did because the auto attack produced a clone. That meant I would lose 1 iduelist. The question came up “Is scepter clone worth an iduelist”.

170% crit damage
200 × 8 iduelist damage over 6.5s 80% crit
sharper images
~ 1stack bleed over 5sec over a long period of time = 5stacks of bleed over 1sec
102 bleed damage per stack

iduelist
~ ((200 × 0.2) + (200 × 1.7) x 0.8) x 8 / 6.5
~ 384 dps
with sharper images
~ (102 × 5)bleed damage x 0.8chance x (8 attacks / 6.5 sec)
~ 502 dps
Total ~ 886 dps

300 300 450 scepter damage over 2 sec

scepter
~ ((1050 × 0.2) + (1050 × 1.7 × 0.8)) / 2
~ 819 dps
with clone and sharper images
~ (102 × 5) bleed damage x 0.8 chance x (1 attack / 0.5 sec) (EDIT 0.5 -> 2)
~ 816 dps (EDIT 204)
Total ~ 1635 dps (EDIT 1023)

Is this right? I actually lose 749 (EDIT 137)dps trying to keep up 3 iduelsits instead of 2 iduelist + 1 scepter clone?

To explain (to others) and correct your calculations:

Since you haven’t used actual damage numbers, but tooltip ones, your assumption is just wrong. I’ve done this with my Mesmer yesterday. It’s a hybrid mesmer with lots of rampager equip. The themes would be 33% direct dmg, 33% bleed dmg, 33% mantra/support. I usually don’t use the pistol, so I tested with a gold scpeter and a white pistol on environmental (low def, no crits, no conditions) targets in lions arch.

your statements:
- 80% critical chance (I assume it’s 60% + phantasmal fury); would be 70% + 0% for mine
- 20% critical damage; 38% for me, since I have 30 dueling
- 102 bleeding tick

iDuellist:
- ~210 dmg per hit
- 8 hits per burst
- 7.6s per burst (no phantasmal haste); stopped time yesterday

cScepter:
- 7 dmg per hit (~2% of my 325 dmg)
- 2s per hit

now let’s redo your calculations (ignoring the 16s- cooldown for iDuelists):

iDuelist
[pre]iDDPS = baseDmg * hitCount / rechargeTime * (%normal + %critChance * (150% + %critDmg))
= 210 * 8 / 7.6 * (20% + 80% * (150% + 20%))
= ~345 (dps)

iBDPS = bleedDmg * hitBleedCount * hitDmgCount / rechargeTime * critChance
= 102 * 5 * 8 / 7.6 * 80
= ~429 (dps)

iDPS = iDDPS + iBDPS
= 345 + 429
= 774 (dps) ;(not 886)[/pre]

cScepter
[pre]cDDPS = baseDmg / rechargeTime * (%normal + %critChance * (150% + %critDmg))
= 7 / 2 * (40% + 60% * (150% + 20%)) ; (not 80% because clones don’t get phantasmal fury)
= ~5 (dps) ;(not 819; wonder oh wonder)

cBDPS = bleedDmg * hitBleedCount / rechargeTime * critChance
= 102 * 5 / 2 * 60 ;(here again, not 80%)
= ~153 (dps) ;(not 204)

cDPS = cDDPS + cBDPS
= 5 + 153
= 158 (dps)[/pre]

I wonder if anyone said cScepter deals more dps than iDuelist.

As mentioned before, clones are not for damage (GS and Sword can deal decent bleeding). While you can summon them much faster than your 3 iDuelists (3x 16s = 48s w/o pistol trait), they’re meant to be special skills, not damage ones.
Then you’d have to take into account that you can attack yourself (325 dmg) if you don’t have 3 phantasms, your clones distract and may cause conditions on replacement, but your iDuelists could have retaliation, regeneration and projectile combos.

[ Edit ]
This forum’s formatting is awful. Some [percent] may be missing.

@Nretep:
You only do 325 DPS with scepter auto in rampager gear? That seems a bit low. I more than double that in knights/soldiers.

@Seetoo:
You also have to take out the time required to cast CI from your scepter auto calcs, because you will want to use that. A 3s channel every 15s or so is a 20% downtime in auto attacking. The 3 duelist scenario does not suffer from this downtime.

Scepter 2 can also do a nice chuck if timed right. That only takes a split second, but can interrupt your chain (Ether Clone does more damage than Bolt and Blast).

Scepter doesn’t give on Demand clone like Osi stated… Upside though is unlike other weapons the chain continues outside of combat so their are ways to make your first attack on an enemy a clone. Also scepter/sword combo has the highest illusion generation potential of any weaponset.. (POTENTIAL.) It requires good timing and an understanding that it will only block one attack but that one block will also do very VERY good damage.

Gaiawolf.8261:

@Nretep:
You only do 325 DPS with scepter auto in rampager gear? That seems a bit low. I more than double that in knights/soldiers.

@Seetoo:
You also have to take out the time required to cast CI from your scepter auto calcs, because you will want to use that. A 3s channel every 15s or so is a 20% downtime in auto attacking. The 3 duelist scenario does not suffer from this downtime.

Scepter 2 can also do a nice chuck if timed right. That only takes a split second, but can interrupt your chain (Ether Clone does more damage than Bolt and Blast).

in both cases you were talking about the mesmer himself dealing damage. As I’ve understood Seetoo only wanted to compare the illusions, ignoring the Mesmer himself.

My first chain hit deals avg 325 on environmental targets in Lions Arch. Never said it’s my DPS with scepter’s autoattack.

No. In his calculations he includes the scepter auto attack as part of his clone+2 duelists DPS. He wants to decide if auto-attacking (him + 1 clone + 2 duelists) will yield better DPS than not auto-attacking (3 duelists doing their thing with no clone to overwrite a duelist).

To clarify, these are NOT TOOL TIP numbers. These are my numbers rounded down (for easier calculation (and I didn’t want to spend time taking the lowest and highest values to get an average). These are higher than my tool tip numbers (and slightly lower than my actual).

Gaiawolf.8261:

No. In his calculations he includes the scepter auto attack as part of his clone+2 duelists DPS. He wants to decide if auto-attacking (him + 1 clone + 2 duelists) will yield better DPS than not auto-attacking (3 duelists doing their thing with no clone to overwrite a duelist).

How can people still not get this?

Sweet, the difference is getting smaller and smaller. Keep the edits coming.

He said he’s currently using sword/pistol. He calced the scepter clone as full damage dealer. Otherwise he’d have to include his sword’s autoattack or at least MoP damage.

He said he wanted to try scepter, but didn’t because he was afraid the auto would lower his DPS. He just wants to see if using the auto is worth it, or if he should not auto when using scepter.

This part of his post seems to be his auto-attack calc:

scepter
~ ((1050 × 0.2) + (1050 × 1.7 × 0.8)) / 2
~ 819 dps

Good point about the MoP damage though. The return is instant, but charging it takes time. Similar to my argument about CI.

He once said “scepter clones use the original ether bolt”, so I guessed he got it wrong.

The “not doing anything with three iDuelists out” is just bad. You’d either use your sword a bit to deal additional damage (esp Sword #2) or at least calculate your MoP damage. Sure, you need 2.5s cast + 2×1s cool-down, but it’d still add 2x damage over 4.5s. Negleting this, woud equal negleting the clones bleeding.
But the same thing is with “using ato-attack with scepter”. Clones often cause conditions on death (random and/or confusion). You’d also use Scepter#3 and possibly pre-charged MoP. Re-summoning clones also changes their autoattack-recharge time.
The whole assuption of the initial post has so many holes, that it rather looks like the clone itsself deals the 1050 dmg per 2s.

So let’s redo the calculations a bit:
[spoiler]Let’s skip the summoning process and the two iDuelist of both ways. So it’s basically a comparison of “idling around with one iDuelist” versus “using scepters autoattack and having an everlasting clone”. So I’m ignoring the replacement of clones with its reset of attacking recharge and “clone being killed” triggers.
I also use your damage numbers here. (but my recharge ones) Haven’t tested the scepter’s autoattack and – honestly – I think 2s per cycle seems pretty fast.

Case1: iDuelist
iDPS1 = phanDmg * hitCount / rechargeTime * (%normal + critChance * (150 + critDmg))
= 200 * 8 / 7.6 * (20 + 80% * (150% + 20%))
= ~328 [dps]

bDPS1 = bleedDmg * hitBleedCount * hitDmgCount / rechargeTime * critChance
= 102 * 5 * 8 / 7.6 * 80
= ~429 [dps]

mDPS1 = 0 [dps]

tDPS1 = iDPS1 + bDPS1 + mDPS1
= 328 + 429 + 0
= 757 [dps]

Case2: cScepter
iDPS2 = clonDmg / rechargeTime * (%normal + critChance * (150 + critDmg))
= 7 / 2 * (40 + 60% * (150% + 20%)) ; (not 80% because clones don’t get phantasmal fury)
= ~5 [dps]

bDPS2 = bleedDmg * hitBleedCount / rechargeTime * critChance
= 102 * 5 / 2 * 60 ;(here again, not 80%)
= ~153 [dps]

mDPS2 = mesmDmg / rechargeTime * (%normal + critChance * (150 + critDmg))
= 1050 / 2 * (40 + 60% * (150% + 20%)) ; (not 80% because you don’t get phantasmal fury)
= 746 [dps]

cDPS = cDDPS + cBDPS
= 5 + 153 + 764
= 922 [dps][/spoiler]

So, assuming you just stand around while having three iDuelists, it’s 757 dps (+ two iDuelists) and 922 dps (+ two iDuelists) when you attack with scepter’s autoattack only.

Yeah, he tried to correct his errors in an edit. But you got it right. You can’t just calculate it as if you are standing around doing nothing. I said as much in an earlier post. IMO cast times will affect the auto-attack model more than the 3 duelist model, but I don’t have time for any tests.

Nretep.2564:

He once said “scepter clones use the original ether bolt”, so I guessed he got it wrong.

Already pointed out by Pyroatheist

Nretep.2564:

Case1: iDuelist
iDPS1 = phanDmg * hitCount / rechargeTime * (%normal + critChance * (150 + critDmg))
= 200 * 8 / 7.6 * (20 + 80% * (150% + 20%)) phantasmal haste brings that down to 6.5 instead of 7.6
= ~328 [dps] 384

bDPS1 = bleedDmg * hitBleedCount * hitDmgCount / rechargeTime * critChance
= 102 * 5 * 8 / 7.6 * 80 phantasmal haste brings that down to 6.5 instead of 7.6
= ~429 [dps] 502

mDPS1 = 0 [dps]

tDPS1 = iDPS1 + bDPS1 + mDPS1
= 328 + 429 + 0
= 757 [dps] 886

Case2: cScepter
iDPS2 = clonDmg / rechargeTime * (%normal + critChance * (150 + critDmg))
= 7 / 2 * (40 + 60% * (150% + 20%)) ; (not 80% because clones don’t get phantasmal fury)
= ~5 [dps]

bDPS2 = bleedDmg * hitBleedCount / rechargeTime * critChance
= 102 * 5 / 2 * 60 ;(here again, not 80%)
= ~153 [dps]

mDPS2 = mesmDmg / rechargeTime * (%normal + critChance * (150 + critDmg))
= 1050 / 2 * (40 + 60% * (150% + 20%)) ; (not 80% because you don’t get phantasmal fury)
= 746 [dps]

cDPS = cDDPS + cBDPS
= 5 + 153 + 764 5 + 153 + 746
= 922 [dps][/spoiler] 904

So, assuming you just stand around while having three iDuelists, it’s 757 886dps (+ two iDuelists) and 922 [b]904[b] dps (+ two iDuelists) when you attack with scepter’s autoattack only.

Sweet!! 18 dps diff.

I just tested it again and mesmers’ scepter’s autoattack has a 3.3~4s cycle, not 2s. The clones only use the first skill of the chain and have a recharge of 2s (including animation time). Mesmers attack-chain has 2s cast and a variable animation delay. Depending on the distance to your target the time increases. Standing in melee range sets the cycle time to ~3.3s. But since you usually keep your distance at ~800, I’d use 4s recharge.

This reduces mesmers autoattack damage (mDPS2) to 373 [dps] (instead of 746) (halves). And this would reduce the total DPS of the scepter version to 531 [dps] (instead of 904).

Something to note. The scepter autoattack is distance dependent. You do not start the next chain of the attack until the bolt reaches the target. I don’t remember the exact numbers, but this means that somewhere around 700 range, the gs starts out damaging the scepter in autoattack damage.

That being said, a common tactic is to interrupt the scepter chain. 2 attacks and dodge. 2 attacks and double tap 2, etc. This allows you to still attack without overwriting a phantasm, and I’m surprised no one has mentioned this yet.

Seetoo.9316:

For a long time, I’ve run a sword/pistol restorative mantras build. I just set up 3 iduelists and spam mantra of pain.

Is this right? I actually lose 749 (EDIT 137) (EDIT 86) dps trying to keep up 3 iduelsits instead of 2 iduelist + 1 scepter clone?

….

Your model is wrong because you are incorrectly comparing 3 iD versus Scept111 + 2 iD + clone.

Cancelling the extra iDs, you are comparing 1 iD versus Scep1 + clone.

This is wrong because Scep1 uses your “time” resource. Sustained iD does not. In your original statement you say you are filling your time with Mantra of Pain.

You should be comparing: 1 iD + Mantra of Pain versus Scep1 + clone.

Additionally you would want to add a comparison with 1 iD + Sword111.

TLDR: You forgot Mantra of Pain. That’s why your original analysis has unexpected results.