Guild Wars 2

Since the specialization update, there aren’t that many guides / builds available, and for each class, what I can find is usually just 3 or 4 variants on one basic strat. Almost every Mesmer I’ve seen is some kind of sword/greatsword shatter. I saw one supportish celestial staff build, but it didn’t grab me. Even taking a cursory glance at some old stuff, I that’s a lot of what I’m seeing.

Is Mesmer scepter just took clunky to use? I know the cast animations are long, but making extra clones really seems like it should be valuable, and while long channels have their problems, the confuse ray hits pretty hard. Is it neglected because the extra clones are unnecessary? I’ve been playing sword/greatsword shatter and I do find that traits and utility makes it possible to get just enough clones to use most shatters on cooldown. Still, it seems like it would be nice to get longer distortion or more multi-daze combos. Or is the problem that condition-shatter is just far worse than critical-shatter?

The extra clones are, frankly, just too slow. They also appear right next to the enemy, which generally means they get cleaved in .000001 seconds. If clone death condis were still a thing, scepter condi troll would be strong.

That said, most effective scepter builds are condi builds. 6 confusion on the ray, 5 torment+blind+confusion(with ineptitude) on block are pretty strong.
I’ve been running scepter+torch|staff in mimicry of much better players than I, and I really enjoy it.

I still run Ineptitude over Malicious Sorcery, but I think Pyro said he’s been enjoying Malicious Sorcery in pvp.

Either way, I think it’s mostly a condi thing right now.

Edit: to answer your last question, condi is very much alive in pvp, with condi-shatter of various types being decently strong. It’s not, however, at the level that power-shatter is for raw burst. Your numbers are just lower, but it’s a tradeoff many skilled players seem willing to make.

And condi is so troll.

For recommendations, I suggest looking at messiah’s posts, he’s been doing a lot of different condi mes experimentation in spvp.

I’ve actually been having a good time with a condi/phantasm build that uses Scepter/Pistol+Sword/Sword. Your bleeds and confusion hurt quite a bit and really punish inattentive enemies. In order to have respectable damage, though, you need to use Rampager amulet, which means you’re super glassy and need to really lean on your active defenses. (Rune of the Undead makes up for it a teeny bit.)

Staff as a second weapon can make you pretty tanky if you go down Chaos. There’s might be a good build in there based on Rabid.

The problem with Mesmer condition builds, I feel, is it goes against what people usually expect from Mesmers; and that is high burst. Condition Mesmers are much more focused around constant pressure and personal survivability, while Shatter Mesmers sacrifice most of their survivability for a mean burst.

The other problem is Mesmer survivability is mostly based around mobility and, if you choose to use it, stealth; which isn’t very useful for holding points… so investing in your own survivability as a Mesmer tends to be seen as a selfish act that is detrimental to the team.

There’s also the perception that Condition Mesmer is a highly passive playstyle. To some extent this is true: unlike Shatter Mesmers you dish out constant pressure by simply keeping Illusions up, and being more survivable means you rely somewhat less on active defenses. The reality however is a passive Condition Mesmer is almost completely ineffectual, and you’re not going to contribute anything unless you set up condition bursts; which in some ways is more difficult than a power burst as you not only have to ensure it hits, but also that it cannot be cleansed.

With regards to the Sceptre, the only reason to use it is for #2 and #3 as part of a burst. You want to swap out of Sceptre ASAP because every Sceptre Clone you create is reducing your DPS. You only rely on #1 for Clones if you’re desperate.

First, staff is definitely a very potent weapon, and in NA competitive play, double ranged mantra shatter (staff, GS, 2 mantras, no DE) is the main mesmer build. Last week’s patch may have killed this build, but still staff is a very useful weapon in both power or condi build.

Scepter is mostly for condis. Condi shatter does not burst people like usual shatter, but it is still very bursty. You obviously won’t 100-0 anyone (except a burn guardian with arcane thievery) but fights are usually rather fast (well, maybe not with eles….). It is definitely strong and I enjoy it a lot.

@Embolism what you’re describing seems to be a build where you expect staff clones to o the damage for you. This may be how condi mesmer was played in the past when clone death was a thing, but now, people are mostly using condi shatter which is as dynamic as usual shatter.

PS: about malicious sorcery, the 15% faster stomp may be a bug (time will tell), but I love it and it is enough for me to tip the balance.

Embolism.8106:

You want to swap out of Sceptre ASAP because every Sceptre Clone you create is reducing your DPS. You only rely on #1 for Clones if you’re desperate.

Why do the clones reduce your dps? The only reason I can think of is if you’re trying to keep 3 phantasms alive, which just seems unlikely. I didn’t think people even used the phantasm utilities. Plus, shouldn’t their torment damage be decent?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

The extra clones are, frankly, just too slow. They also appear right next to the enemy, which generally means they get cleaved in .000001 seconds.

Why is dropping them into melee a bad thing? You can shatter them instantly for damage, or use distortion and actually benefit from AoE shatter traits, or use them with F3 and a ranged phantasm for a multi-daze.

tobascodagama.2961:

In order to have respectable damage, though, you need to use Rampager amulet

I hadn’t thought of that. I was tearing my hair out trying to make a decent Carrion or Rabid build, but it would not come together.

TeuthidPurveyor.1970:

Embolism.8106:

You want to swap out of Sceptre ASAP because every Sceptre Clone you create is reducing your DPS. You only rely on #1 for Clones if you’re desperate.

Why do the clones reduce your dps? The only reason I can think of is if you’re trying to keep 3 phantasms alive, which just seems unlikely. I didn’t think people even used the phantasm utilities. Plus, shouldn’t their torment damage be decent?

I think embolism here did not consider condi shatter, and thus scepter clones are awful, staff clones are the damaging ones. But for shatter builds, scepter clones are as good shatter fodder as anything. The torment damage is literally awful though, it has to be mentioned.

TeuthidPurveyor.1970:

tobascodagama.2961:

In order to have respectable damage, though, you need to use Rampager amulet

I hadn’t thought of that. I was tearing my hair out trying to make a decent Carrion or Rabid build, but it would not come together.

Rabid/Carrion is perfectly fine but a shatter build. That is actually what I would advise. But condi-phantasm is probably different.

After trying to hack out a build, It looks to me as though the trouble with scepter is that the traits just aren’t there. Very few of the minor traits are inherently useful, so each trait line pulls you into specific off-hands and utilities to make them worthwhile. Great traits often conflict at the same tier, while other tiers have nothing exciting. Weapon traits are in the wrong trees. It’s just a mess.

Critical Traits: These pull you out of Carrion into Rabid or Marauder. Going rabid is really painful because the condi builds still have a lot of direct damage. You will be using mind wrack because of its CD, and so going without bonus power is pretty sad. Crit does nothing for your conditions unless you’re in Dueling.

Interrupt Traits: To get a weapon skill interrupt, you have to go pistol or focus. Greatsword doesn’t have any conditions. There’s tons of easy blinds, not so many dazes. Utility interrupts are in mantras and signets; those traits are hard to get, while manipulation traits are easy and glamours synergize with torch.

Phantasm & Illusion traits: if you do use the scepter for clones, you don’t need attack haste or bonus health; you’re also not taking full advantage of bonus damage unless you’re Marauder.

Boon Traits: Boons come from Staff, Greatsword, or Traited torch. Staff is a good secondary weapon for scepter, but if you have chaos then you should probably use staff as your staff weapon; it’s not clear to me that scepter is a great secondary for staff. Boon traits encourage you to go for glamours, leaps, and blast finishers. Sword and Staff have leaps, not scepter. Torch has a blast and some boon traits, but the glamer/torch/stealth traits push you into otherwise mediocre lines.

Reflection Traits: There are so many. It’s really easy to end up with flagrantly unnecessary amounts of reflection.

Or to put it the other way: Domination minors are based on interrupt and daze, which means pistol, mantras, or signets; the tier 1 options are pretty bad. Dueling forces you out of Carrion and probably into pistol. Chaos forces you into staff and glamours. Inspiration has the glamour trait but no other synergy. Illusions is, of course, amazing, and you wish you had all 3 tier 3, but you don’t. I just don’t see any way to choose 3 trees I’m really happy with.

But condi-phantasm is probably different.

How does condi-phantasm work? Generally speaking, I haven’t been happy with phantasms in any build; they simply attack too slowly for me to justify leaving them alive. Phantasm fury and illusion %damage are better for power than for condition. (Fury could be good for bleeds, but if I took dueling I would take pistol, and then I would take the pistol trait, because the other phantasms attack so much slower) Plus, Scepter clones do risk bumping off phantasms. I’d probably rather just use sword flurry to stay alive while my pets attack.

TeuthidPurveyor.1970:

How does condi-phantasm work?

There’s some build discussion around this over here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/PvP-In-The-Lab-Phantasm-Mesmer/

This is what I’ve been playing with recently. I won’t pretend it’s the best, but it makes me happy. I’m using duelist’s discipline despite the bug because I just love the interrupt part of it. I cannot play mesmer without some interrupts, which is also why I don’t play torch.
The missing utility is arcane thievery.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R3SZ;1kUV11;0JVV71;9;4TUW;0238258058;9;1hoHAhoHA2v

TeuthidPurveyor.1970:

Since the specialization update, there aren’t that many guides / builds available, and for each class, what I can find is usually just 3 or 4 variants on one basic strat. Almost every Mesmer I’ve seen is some kind of sword/greatsword shatter. I saw one supportish celestial staff build, but it didn’t grab me. Even taking a cursory glance at some old stuff, I that’s a lot of what I’m seeing.

Is Mesmer scepter just took clunky to use? I know the cast animations are long, but making extra clones really seems like it should be valuable, and while long channels have their problems, the confuse ray hits pretty hard. Is it neglected because the extra clones are unnecessary? I’ve been playing sword/greatsword shatter and I do find that traits and utility makes it possible to get just enough clones to use most shatters on cooldown. Still, it seems like it would be nice to get longer distortion or more multi-daze combos. Or is the problem that condition-shatter is just far worse than critical-shatter?

I decided to get away from the fotm mindset. My current build is http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAW7flsnhG1YFawVNQtGLvGk5KG+IOLSQOOaAyZTA-TJRFwAd2fAwVAAaZABPEAA and I do well with it. Its great in 1v1 even vs other mesmers.

The elite skill is one I switch most often, so don’t pay too much attention to it, as I run all 3 about equally and they all fit well with rest of the build.

I’m not much of a pvper, but I am loving the hybrid Condi/shatter scepter build I’m working on, and it will only get stronger with Chronomancer. However, I think it would be really tough to use effectively in pvp because of targeting issues. It’s hard enough in PvE. When you can nail 4 or 5 targets with scepter 3 it feels awesome, but that’s not likely to ever happen in pvp. Simply put, yeah I think it can work, but there are probably far easier ways to get better effect.

Misguided.5139:

Simply put, yeah I think it can work, but there are probably far easier ways to get better effect.

Yes, well, we’ve seen a never-ending parade of former “mesmer players” who’d love to have a build that takes lots of effort to put up good results.

Silverkey.2078:

@Embolism what you’re describing seems to be a build where you expect staff clones to o the damage for you. This may be how condi mesmer was played in the past when clone death was a thing, but now, people are mostly using condi shatter which is as dynamic as usual shatter.

PS: about malicious sorcery, the 15% faster stomp may be a bug (time will tell), but I love it and it is enough for me to tip the balance.

I consider shattering (i.e. a condition burst, which I mentioned) an essential part of playing Condition Mesmer well.

However, Condition Shatters lack the bite of Power Shatters and compensate by the constant pressure you can dish out in between Shatters; and that comes primarily from Staff Clones. Every Sceptre Clone you have out is reducing the pressure you’re putting on your target, which could mean you won’t be able to force a cleanse for the Counter + Beam + CoF combo you’re preparing.

@Embolism
I usually shatter like crazy (which may be a bad thing): MW as a first shatter, then CoF and back to MW (if needed). They usually use their cleanse before the CoF which is of course ideal for me. Added to chaos storm, duelist volley and confusing image, this often brings the duel to an end except for defensive classes (guardian/ele/necro). A good necro is obviously a very bad idea to engage as condi, but even bad/average minion masters are difficult. I usually keep a fairly mobile role and thus avoid if possible the 1v1 against bunkers. So I think I fulfill about the same role as burst shatter, possibly mildly less effective but I enjoy it more.

I also found a hybrid build to be pretty effective. Since you lack defensive stats when playing with a Rampager’s amulet, I chose Scepter/Sword and Staff as my weaponsets. Most people probably just aren’t used to handling both decent direct and condition damage from one source. Bountiful Disillusionment is a great trait, btw. <3

Sebbl.2806:

Bountiful Disillusionment is a great trait, btw. <3

I just can’t fit Chaos into my Scepter builds. Domination and Dueling are mandatory for dealing good damage in PvP, then you need Illusions to make Scepter work. I tried swapping out Domination for Chaos, but I just couldn’t secure any downs with that build.

Sebbl.2806:

Bountiful Disillusionment is a great trait, btw. <3

Looking forward to trying out the Chronomancer/Chaos/Illusion scepter/torch build I’ve been planning next weekend. All the might stacks will be mine.

Am i the only 1 that is using scepter in a zerker shatter setup (Spvp) ?
It feels a lot more damaging then when using conditions builds.
And it doesn’t force you into close combat like sword does.
( and dont get me started on sword 2 …. just isn’t reliable enough and seriously who still falls for the immobilize swap even from stealth ?)

• scepter 3 = 5-6 k damage
  ( ranged multihits , not even counting the confusion after-damage)

• scepter 2 = 1.5-2 k damage ( closecombat block /clone generator )

Just compare them to sword 2 and 3 .

I’ve been playing around with the following build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR7/ENqxy0gnascaQoRo7fnMALY5ljo5hD-T5wHwAn3fAwTAQZZAA

Could even use Mtd instead of SS just to help pressure enemy’s in wasting time and cooldowns cleansing . ( but its not really needed, you already got confusion anyway )

Ow and I’m playing a lot with mirror images for the fast aoe daze burst, but its more a utility slot that’s free to chose depending your situation.

Cheerz

Comparing scepter damage to sword damage is kinda weird, because nobody picks sword for the damage. Which also means sword doesn’t force you into close combat. Sword is good for one reason, and that’s low-cooldown long-lasting evasion. It’s a million times better than a single block. With the sword out, you get your damage from your offhand, from utilities, and from phantasms leftover from your other weapons. When you want to do damage, you use your greatsword.