Guild Wars 2

LordByron.8369:

completely agree
Phantasm build suffers trash mobs…..but its way better at bosses

But there a single warden outdps shatter by a mile.

Just reflecting back damage in fractal you see 50K often plus the 13K of iwarden itself (each iwarden)+ bleeding.

Unfortunately phantasms dies a lot because they don t only dies when they are killed but also when your target dies :/

I still see that 50K reflect too with feedback. Just have to really watch animations to time your reflect since you don’t have as much.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Most teams are going to have 25 stacks of might for a good amount of time after you double them with the signet. All you need for that is 1 guardian with a staff.

Might duration is only 10s from staff plus what ever duration bonus they have. Great for opening spikes, but might is usually gone in middle of fight. Your also counting on having a guardian. Each weapons swap for me is 3 stacks for 40s. and the 25 stacks I get is for 20-25s.

25 stacks of Might every 45 seconds = kittens dies quicker = less need for reflecting.

If you were reflecting in addition to having 25 stacks of might, things would die even faster. As the mesmer, the only might stacking you ever need to do is doubling off signet.

I still run feedback. My warden still destroys projectiles. My Curtain still pulls mobs into balls. My null field still works just fine. So what? I lose 8 seconds of CD… or 2 seconds of duration….

Reflecting is better than destroying, it makes encounters end faster. The point is, in fractals you tend to need sustained reflects, so traited focus and glamour is better. For example in uncategorised, a mesmer with 20 in inspiration can chain wardens, temporal curtains and feedbacks. Your mesmer can only use feedback on 40s cd.

I still run full team support, just instead of more glamour, I offer 25 stacks of Might.

I also offer 25 stacks of might and glamour. You don’t offer as much reflects as a phantasm mesmer which kills a lot of the point of even taking you along.

AGAIN. Not necessarily better in all situations. But works just fine.

Right, and scepter/torch + staff works “fine” too.

colesy.8490:

Reflecting is better than destroying, it makes encounters end faster

I also offer 25 stacks of might and glamour. You don’t offer as much reflects as a phantasm mesmer which kills a lot of the point of even taking you along.

Reflecting makes encounters end faster than killing everything faster? HUH?

Where is your 25 stacks of might coming from? signet off of Guard? cool. just said that doesn’t last very long.

I have done dozens of runs in +40 fractals as both a phantasm mesmer, and as this shatter build. Both work well. OP asked if shatter builds were useless in PvE. My point is they are not.

Uncatagorized fractal, ya, sucks with less reflect. But Dredge and Ascalonian fractals, it works amazing. Conversely, your build shines in Uncatagorized, but I am willing to bet my build out performs yours for all the trash in the others.

Sigh.

Ok, I run with my group, stack might at start of fight. Walk in at 25 stacks, put up reflects, phantasms, DPS down.

If the fight lasts longer than six seconds, you lose your ability to reflect whereas I don’t. If you’re against dredge, you can’t chain reflects whereas I can. I can do this without compromising my own DPS in any way.

you should look at each fractal:

Harpy: phantasm mesmer has no equals

Dredge: phantasms better except boss you lose dps from phantasms in left path but you can reflect so much damage than you made up for it
Except boss if ranged.

Ascalon: shatter does better

water: – dunno

Cliffside: equals imho

Volcanic: phantasm 100% better

Swamp: equal maybe at mossman, phantasm wins at bloomhunger

svanir: phantasms wins by a mile

Solid ocean: dunno

The point is:
Phantasms is more useful at difficult parts mostly

@shinigamy ok you have feedback too….phantasms mesmer uses feedback on reaction also…because it refletcs way more damage then other reflects
But they still reflects lot more damage with warden and curtain.

LordByron.8369:

You tried them bad……
Phantams doesn t trigger melee stuff
They will be ignored by boss except for agony arrows (that will possbly be reflected back at him)
Phantasm don t die easily at all due to positioning (a thing that anet did really well in PvE) and stupid bosses
Phantasms are squishy only on paper for pve; they rarely die expecially at boss fights
A phantasm can control better the fight with 3-3 (low cd) and temporal curtain+izerker provide some nice cripple if needed.
Shatter in PvE is about pressing buttons, the only hard stuff is watching to not roll too much and waste your energy……
Phantasms= reaction + tactic in pve
Shatter = button sequences and lot of button pressing only risk is wasting energy for DE….also you are not useful.
What you say its clearly something you heard from PvP players (or maybe WWW), applied to the wrong game mode…….
p.S: i d like to say a thing about mesmers in fractals.
While dungeon is 100% skip to next boss and here mesmer shines
Fractals is often unskippable.
If its true that your dps falls against trash mobs its also true that your support and utilities will shine more than anywhere else….

First of all, let’s deal with shaman’s behavior. Out of personal experience, I’ve seen that plenty of times with no one in melee range except phantasms, he does his melee tricks. They have rather low priority, yes, but they are definitely not ignored, nor can they sit there for more than 2 activations.
I’d also like to point out that pvt mesmer’s phantasms are not squishy especially after IC update. Berserker’s phantasms die in 1-2 hits kittenter and 2-3 as phantasm build.
Calling shatters “pressing buttons” and phantasm build “reaction” and “tactic” could only come from someone who never played shatters and just copied one of those phantasm builds lying around in this forum. All thinking you need to do in phantasm build is how and where to position them. Then sit back in range, hoping they won’t accidentally die and using only non-clonegens, because clonegens would kill your third phantasm. Shatter build has to think about melee weave rotations(if you screw them, you deal less damage), right and bad time to shatter, when to clonegen(because if you screw this one, you lose huge chunk of your damage) all while paying attention to boss itself(because proper shatter best done in melee). You have to know encounter to play shatter effectively. That’s why people like easy ways, like phantasms. I must admit that I’ll never use shatter build if anet throws in some new srs encounters. I will use one of those nobrain phantasm builds for obvious reasons.

If you want to be a useful dungeon mesmer, you need to trait your focus.

If you want to be a useful dungeon mesmer, focus on damage and call in your AH-consecrations guardian buddy for true support, then slot 3rd utility according to needs, while providing it where necessary. Any build can do that.

Winds.3087:

First of all, let’s deal with shaman’s behavior. Out of personal experience, I’ve seen that plenty of times with no one in melee range except phantasms, he does his melee tricks. They have rather low priority, yes, but they are definitely not ignored, nor can they sit there for more than 2 activations.

False (fact)

Phantasms are squishy only on paper for pve; they rarely die expecially at boss fights
A phantasm can control better the fight with 3-3 (low cd) and temporal curtain+izerker provide some nice cripple if needed.

Most Phantasm builds don t use stuff that affects phant HP…not to mention PVT.
Phantasms differently from pets dont facetanks mobs that is why they don t get hit at all most times.

All thinking you need to do in phantasm build is how and where to position them. Then sit back in range, hoping they won’t accidentally die

What are you talking about?
Phantasm mesmer use sword/X more than shatter…….out of fractals some phantasms players doesn t even equip a ranged weapon at all.

Calling shatters “pressing buttons” and phantasm build “reaction” and “tactic” could only come from someone who never played shatters and just copied one of those phantasm builds lying around in this forum

check on the forum who posted first the build 0/20/0/25/25 with tests and explanations….wrong once again

take those info not as a personal attack but as a way to try something you clearly don t know anything about.
Also try to be less rude and biased.

Shatter is indeed proactive, while phantasms is reactive…because you are not tied to ANY rotation.

Shatter Mes Reppin!~

20/20/0/0/30

Dungeon Master – all dungeon content

Fractals to as far as you care. (For most getting your weps)

Killing scrubs 4v1 and decent players 1v1 – 2v1 without food buffs in WvW.

Champ illusionist – SPvP viable (once was, will be again when condi meta brought in line.)

Champ farm solo tag mobs.

Owned Queens gauntlet and gambits.

Solo Subject alpha, Lupicus, and various other bosses when your party dies.

Solo champs and Karka when bored.

Very viable PvE Come join your glassy shatter brethren! Leave these filthy no skill, easy win, phant and condi casuals!!!
(Lol joking)

Seriously though PvE you don’t need to min/max to succeed, you can clear all the content with pretty much anything. Shatter is just a viable as anything else. Just try to enjoy whatever you choose.

If you want to be a useful dungeon mesmer, focus on damage and call in your AH-consecrations guardian buddy for true support, then slot 3rd utility according to needs, while providing it where necessary. Any build can do that.

The fact that you don’t think a phantasm mesmer can focus on damage and your mention of AH guardian just shows that you’re bad at dungeons.

Seriously though PvE you don’t need to min/max to succeed, you can clear all the content with pretty much anything. Shatter is just a viable as anything else. Just try to enjoy whatever you choose.

A scepter/torch + staff condi build is viable in PvE, it’s just not the best.

I’ve been trying to look at different builds n from what I’m seeing Phantasms just have a lot better sustained DPS but lack the burst that shatter gives. Also, iDuelist is pulling ahead on sustained DPS unless you can iLock with 5+ conditions, is this what others are seeing? I sidelined my mesmer after the Celerity change but am interested in getting back to it. This build any good for PvE? More Phantasm but a touch of Shatter for trash.

LordByron.8369:

False (fact)

Your word vs my word, not a fact until careful studies will show otherwise. I’ve seen this behavior. I believe you in that you’ve definitely seen other. Maybe I’m jinxed or my phantasms are so appealing that mobs rush for them the moment instant. Maybe you are jinxed too. It’s all about aggro mechanics that are still mumbo-jumbo to us, players. We can’t even be certain about what causes mob aggro – one year after release. I think it has some deal of rng involved.

Most Phantasm builds don t use stuff that affects phant HP…not to mention PVT.
Phantasms differently from pets dont facetanks mobs that is why they don t get hit at all most times.

Yep, but when they are hit assuming berserkers gear, they are dead fast. And random. That’s my point – phantasms are too much random and unreliable for me at least. Some people may think and experience other results, but hey, it’s how rng works.

What are you talking about?
Phantasm mesmer use sword/X more than shatter…….out of fractals some phantasms players doesn t even equip a ranged weapon at all.

Extensive usage of sword occupies at least one illusion slot for swap clone which certainly hurt phantasm build’s damage. Yeah, you can still go melee as phantasm build. But will you sit there most of your time?

check on the forum who posted first the build 0/20/0/25/25 with tests and explanations….wrong once again
take those info not as a personal attack but as a way to try something you clearly don t know anything about.
Also try to be less rude and biased.

No offense taken nor I am being rude on this matter.
I just thought it is crystal clear to any player who played both shatters and phantasms that shatters are way harder to pull out. When you deal with phantasm build, your primary concern is whether your phantasms survive long enough to deal damage. Obviously their survival most of the time doesn’t even depend on your actions – only right time and place to summon matters, what happens next depends on situation and aggro rng. Ideally played, you just throw them out and sit back enjoying the views. Yes, you can shatter phantasms too. Though I almost never seen phantasm build mesmers doing that(not talking distortion), perhaps some people even when they see phantasm knockout is coming for sure hope that it will survive and deal more damage.
Meanwhile with shatters you have magnitude of your short bursts which strictly depends on how many alive fodder you have – and they all have to survive before you decide to shatter them. So you need a right time and place to summon them, pay close attention to them while they are alive, and then pull out shatter when you see window in mob’s attack. Failure to do so drastically decreases shatter’s damage. Exceptionally executed rotation allows shatter builds to be on par with phantasm builds.
This is why I think shatters are superior.

colesy.8490:

The fact that you don’t think a phantasm mesmer can focus on damage and your mention of AH guardian just shows that you’re bad at dungeons.

In civilized conversations people don’t call other people “bad at something” because they don’t share their points of view.

Extensive usage of sword occupies at least one illusion slot for swap clone which certainly hurt phantasm build’s damage. Yeah, you can still go melee as phantasm build. But will you sit there most of your time?

Any phantasm player who doesn’t suck can sit in melee quite easily. Why else do I constantly tell people to stop using the trash weapon greatsword? It’s because melee lets us deal more damage, and it’s easy enough to stay in melee that it’s not like your DPS is dropping from being out of range.

Meanwhile with shatters you have magnitude of your short bursts which strictly depends on how many alive fodder you have – and they all have to survive before you decide to shatter them. So you need a right time and place to summon them, pay close attention to them while they are alive, and then pull out shatter when you see window in mob’s attack. Failure to do so drastically decreases shatter’s damage. Exceptionally executed rotation allows shatter builds to be on par with phantasm builds.
This is why I think shatters are superior.

You think shatter builds are better because you have to jump through hoops to try and even get damage on par with phantasm builds who just drop phantasms, whatever utility skill and then 11111111 for the win.

In civilized conversations people don’t call other people “bad at something” because they don’t share their points of view.

No decent group uses an AH guardian. No decent guardian uses AH in dungeons. It’s a grandmaster trait which does absolutely zero to help your group in a bad trait line and doesn’t even help with sustaining yourself since there are far better methods of damage mitigation. It’s basically “stick 30 points in valour for 300+ toughness and 30%+ crit damage”, and any decent player knows you don’t put points in to traits for their stats.

Again, you just sound like you’re bad at dungeons.

Yeah, you can still go melee as phantasm build. But will you sit there most of your time?

As i said in dungeons most phantasm mesmers go for 2 offhand weapons and a sword.
So yes almost Always melee.

i’ll tell you again….
GS is a BACKUP weapon….for versatility…..look at the build:
0/20/0/25/25

ever wondered why sword is traited and GS is not?

As i said as a player who played both and started with shatter for months…..shatter is not harder….is just less effective…..

If you mess up with a shatter mesmer you die.
If you mess up with a phantasm mesmer your party wipes.

Also remember…..phantasm overwrite illusion….and this build is based around reduced CD this is the key.

Try to go coe with a good mesmer player……
Coe is easy but uses most phantasms mechanics so you will see how it works.

colesy.8490:

Any phantasm player who doesn’t suck can sit in melee quite easily. Why else do I constantly tell people to stop using the trash weapon greatsword? It’s because melee lets us deal more damage, and it’s easy enough to stay in melee that it’s not like your DPS is dropping from being out of range.

Greatsword is far from trash weapon. Second focus in terms of herding trash\stripping defiant with decent aoe. It has it’s uses.

You think shatter builds are better because you have to jump through hoops to try and even get damage on par with phantasm builds who just drop phantasms, whatever utility skill and then 11111111 for the win.

I don’t like mindless gameplay even if encounters are built for these. If I wanted boringness, I’d roll another class.

No decent group uses an AH guardian. No decent guardian uses AH in dungeons. It’s a grandmaster trait which does absolutely zero to help your group in a bad trait line and doesn’t even help with sustaining yourself since there are far better methods of damage mitigation. It’s basically “stick 30 points in valour for 300+ toughness and 30%+ crit damage”, and any decent player knows you don’t put points in to traits for their stats.
Again, you just sound like you’re bad at dungeons.

You just sound like you want me to stop liking what you don’t like. No deal.
People put points in valor not only for toughness and crit damage, but for cdr on shield and passive cond removal. AH is controversial, some may like it, some may not. Yet even AH guardian will support better than support mesmer.

LordByron.8369:

As i said in dungeons most phantasm mesmers go for 2 offhand weapons and a sword.
So yes almost Always melee.
i’ll tell you again….
GS is a BACKUP weapon….for versatility…..look at the build:
0/20/0/25/25
ever wondered why sword is traited and GS is not?
As i said as a player who played both and started with shatter for months…..shatter is not harder….is just less effective…..
If you mess up with a shatter mesmer you die.
If you mess up with a phantasm mesmer your party wipes.
Also remember…..phantasm overwrite illusion….and this build is based around reduced CD this is the key.
Try to go coe with a good mesmer player……
Coe is easy but uses most phantasms mechanics so you will see how it works.

Shatter builds are equally effective with phantasm builds. If you know how to pull them out.
Honestly should tell you, did not understand string about messing up. Care to explain why should party wipe if phantasm mesmer messes up?

Winds.3087:

When you deal with phantasm build, your primary concern is whether your phantasms survive long enough to deal damage. Ideally played, you just throw them out and sit back enjoying the views.

Meanwhile with shatters you have magnitude of your short bursts which strictly depends on how many alive fodder you have – and they all have to survive before you decide to shatter them. So you need a right time and place to summon them, pay close attention to them while they are alive, and then pull out shatter when you see window in mob’s attack. Failure to do so drastically decreases shatter’s damage. Exceptionally executed rotation allows shatter builds to be on par with phantasm builds.

1- An intelligent played won’t concern that much in phantasms survivability, since he/she knows the best place for phantasms and also when they will probably die. This allows the mesmer the possibility to focus more on support or reflections. Also, if you’re smart enough you can interact with phantasms, as we have tons of ethereal fields, those stacks of confusion from iduelists/iwarden are a little bump to our DPS. Also, iwardens are a massive condi removal with Temporal Curtain. These proves that phantasms build are not that boring AI pets builds.

2- Ideally played you don’t sit and watch how your phantasms attack, you interact with them and this requires some CD administration. Those players who only summon 3 phantasms and then they do nothing are not playing a phantasm build efficiently, so they are the same as a shatter player who does not correctly shatter rotation.

3- And finally, that’s the problem with shatter builds in PvE. You need to be perfect during all the time, and this requires a lot of action, lots of correct summoning, continuously controlling a lot of CD skills… just to be on par with phantasm builds, which allows you a more relaxing experience, and for some people, more enjoyable.

Greatsword is far from trash weapon. Second focus in terms of herding trash\stripping defiant with decent aoe. It has it’s uses.

If you think GS is even close to focus in positioning mobs, then you’re wrong. Do you think you can use greatsword to position the three golems in SE p1? No. You focus pull them together. Beyond the initial pull you don’t need to use any CC either, so defiant doesn’t matter. Also, sword cleaves so that can be your AoE weapon, you’d know if you stopped using the trashsword.

I don’t like mindless gameplay even if encounters are built for these. If I wanted boringness, I’d roll another class.

I don’t care what you like. The game doesn’t care what you like. I can brain afk, cast phantasms and then 11111111 (plus whatever utility skill is required, normally signet pre-fight and feedback in fight) while you have to do some moronic rotation to even get damage close to a phantasm build because you keep destroying your sources of sustained DPS, the phantasms themselves because lolshatters.

You just sound like you want me to stop liking what you don’t like.

Not at all. I’m saying AH is bad, which it is.

People put points in valor not only for toughness and crit damage, but for cdr on shield

A guardian using shield is bad. You thinking cdr on shield is something worth investing in makes you look incompetent as well.

passive cond removal

I heard pure of voice was pretty good. Or traiting your virtue of resolve to cleanse three conditions on the group, yeah that’s nice too. It just so happens they’re not in valour.

AH is controversial, some may like it, some may not. Yet even AH guardian will support better than support mesmer.

No, the guardian sticking 30 points in a selfish trait line does not make them supportive.

Here’s a tip, learn to actually play the game and then argue back, it’s not fun beating down someone who is repeatedly wrong, it’s not stimulating for either of us.

So much anger, so much hate.

People have preferences, people play differently. I see the futility and ignorance on both sides of the argument, while the answer is simple: No build is optimal for every situation while most builds will just deal fine with most situations.

You don’t like the GS? Don’t use it. But please don’t call it names. You point out the strengths of the sword/focus combo, why not go with both. Sure, the staff is a bullet proof life saver with some support, but not everyone likes to wait on cooldowns for about an hour.
You like shatter better? Welcome to the club. But in dungeons, phantasm builds are just lazier to pull off. Do I play phantasm builds in dungeons? Sure, from time to time, but if they bore me, I stop playing and than noone has anything gained. So I play shatter and still get things done. If the team knows what to do, I do not even care what spec I am on when entering a dungeon.

You can still adjust your utility, you can still swap weapons depending on the fight. Every mesmer can equip a focus and pull things together.

PvE is not rocket science even though some people make it look like it. It is a matter of learning and having the necessary equip and right skills for the challenges at hand. The encounter will not fail on your traits if you know how it works. At least in GW2, min-maxing is not necessary for dungeons. Thank god, many of us were tired of being locked in one way to play.

Enjoy your freedom, and let other enjoy theirs.

Ansau.7326:

3- And finally, that’s the problem with shatter builds in PvE. You need to be perfect during all the time, and this requires a lot of action, lots of correct summoning, continuously controlling a lot of CD skills… just to be on par with phantasm builds, which allows you a more relaxing experience, and for some people, more enjoyable.

agree aside this.

being perfect at shattr still doesn t equal support and dps of pa phantasm pve mesmer.

Having less forced rotations, gives you more reaction and tactic chances.

Example prenerf easy to understand (post nerf there are other stuff but more difficult to explain).

@champion rabdovich dredge fractal
A shatter is bound to swapping weapon to get illusions.
A phantasms summons (untraited) iwardens while being able to stay melee and stop champ Attacks with blurred frenzy if iwardens are not attacking…that while keeping champ where you want with ileap.

That made possible for a mesmer to stop all rabdovich ranged Attacks.

in other situations
Remember than a shatter mesmer has 3 reflect skill, 3 defiant strips, 2 cripple, 1 immobilize on really low cd.

Since you are not bound to rotations you can focus on those things.
You Always have something to do rather than autoattacking.

But if someone says that phantasm is lazy….it just doesn t play half of his mesmer job.

@Ansau.7326:
I agree with you that there are different levels of play as phantasm build. However, this also applies to shatter builds as well. Ultimately it is player’s decision of how to use one or the other. I will still insist on that if both played well – they will be equal. Main difference will lie in amount of effort and awareness needed though. Therefore phantasmal builds are better suggested for new players. Hell, even I will advise phantasm build if someone asked me about new mesmer’s build.

colesy.8490:

If you think GS is even close to focus in positioning mobs, then you’re wrong. Do you think you can use greatsword to position the three golems in SE p1? No. You focus pull them together. Beyond the initial pull you don’t need to use any CC either, so defiant doesn’t matter. Also, sword cleaves so that can be your AoE weapon, you’d know if you stopped using the trashsword.

Actually, I use staff as my secondary weapon and swap to gs only in particular areas.
And it looks like you don’t understand what I’m trying to say. GS is by no means replacement of focus. It wonderfully compliments it though as backup herder. You can concentrate in one point great many scattered groups of trash – one of those that couldn’t pulled all with one foci. Two cc is better than one most of the time. GS5 has faster activation too. I like, for instance, doing that on cof p2 on three shamans right after devourer nests – foci to wall first, then interrupt them all with GS5.
Also, SE p1 is not the only dungeon path out there. Right now out of my head I can tell you about some applications of coordinated defiant stripping: pulling last dredge fractal boss right into lava pots, shutting down shukov melee golem and getting mossman out of stealth without that much pain.

I don’t care what you like. The game doesn’t care what you like. I can brain afk, cast phantasms and then 11111111 (plus whatever utility skill is required, normally signet pre-fight and feedback in fight) while you have to do some moronic rotation to even get damage close to a phantasm build because you keep destroying your sources of sustained DPS, the phantasms themselves because lolshatters.

If you don’t mind, I will answer your escapade with my own performance.
Tremble before all-mighty shatter’s gameplay promoted by the game itself, when phantasmal snails stands and brain afk as always, glorious shatter overlords show exceptional movements right out of Esports and Kimchhi Fraternity, dealing with any encounter in stylish and skillful way, shattering their phantasm peasantry right after it done it’s job and is about to die anyway and doing equal damage in the process.

Not at all. I’m saying AH is bad, which it is.

In your book only. It’s just another way of sustain. Nothing wild or touchy. And no doubt justified as grandmaster trait.

A guardian using shield is bad. You thinking cdr on shield is something worth investing in makes you look incompetent as well.

I suggest that before making such rash assumptions, you should learn what shield actually does. If you don’t like shield, it doesn’t make shield universal weapon for “bad” guardians.

I heard pure of voice was pretty good. Or traiting your virtue of resolve to cleanse three conditions on the group, yeah that’s nice too. It just so happens they’re not in valour.

Actually I heard that you can put 30 valor and still get one of these. What a fascinating discovery and absolutely astonishing breakthrough in guardian buildcraft, isn’t it – not new, though. Them guardians should be proud regardless.

No, the guardian sticking 30 points in a selfish trait line does not make them supportive.

Playing guardian class alone with no traits at all already makes them more supportive than mesmer.

Here’s a tip, learn to actually play the game and then argue back, it’s not fun beating down someone who is repeatedly wrong, it’s not stimulating for either of us.

Are you telling me that all this conversation was actually you trying to beat me with emotions? Well, I am trying to be generous and polite person, so if that brings you sense of relieve, you can get your cookie.

Winds.3087:

@Ansau.7326:
I will still insist on that if both played well – they will be equal. Main difference will lie in amount of effort and awareness needed though. Therefore phantasmal builds are better suggested for new players. Hell, even I will advise phantasm build if someone asked me about new mesmer’s build.

I’ve tried but I don’t see them being equal in terms of sustained DPS. I’ve tested and had others test, the potential DPS of Phantasm is well above Shatter from what we’ve seen. Maintaining 2x phantasms will out dps Shatter, maintaining 1 phantasms is only slightly lower than Shatter.

If there is a build that would increase the damage of Shatter to even 2x Phantasm levels I would love to see it and play it. Also, this is only concerning DPS, not looking at utility or survivability.

Blood~

You can concentrate in one point great many scattered groups of trash – one of those that couldn’t pulled all with one foci

And when can they not be pulled with one curtain?

GS5 has faster activation too. I like, for instance, doing that on cof p2 on three shamans right after devourer nests – foci to wall first, then interrupt them all with GS5.

Or… magic bullet.

Also, SE p1 is not the only dungeon path out there. Right now out of my head I can tell you about some applications of coordinated defiant stripping: pulling last dredge fractal boss right into lava pots, shutting down shukov melee golem and getting mossman out of stealth without that much pain.

You don’t need to CC the last boss in dredge fractal except when it goes to regenerate, and interrupts work through defiant to stop the regeneration anyway.

In your book only. It’s just another way of sustain. Nothing wild or touchy. And no doubt justified as grandmaster trait.

You don’t need another way of sustain, especially AH when it involves 30 points in a pointless trait line for an ability you won’t even be using if you’re half decent.

I suggest that before making such rash assumptions, you should learn what shield actually does. If you don’t like shield, it doesn’t make shield universal weapon for “bad” guardians.

With shield you have a skill that provides protection (better to use a block or even hold the line) and a knockback bubble that absorbs projectiles. You don’t ever want to be knocking back mobs, and for projectile absorption you have shield of the avenger. On top of that, the abilities are on long cooldown. On the other hand, there is the actual good off-hand, the focus, which has a blind on 4 (+ 3 stacks of vuln which every dungeon guard should be traiting for) and the shield on 5 that detonates for a pretty nice burst if it hasn’t been used up within 3 seconds.

No decent guardian uses shield. No meta build involves shield. Shield is bad.

Actually I heard that you can put 30 valor and still get one of these. What a fascinating discovery and absolutely astonishing breakthrough in guardian buildcraft, isn’t it – not new, though. Them guardians should be proud regardless.

I heard putting 30 in valour was bad and that you’re better off putting it in any other trait line because they actually have useful skills. Virtue of justice renewed on kill for 15 in radiance, blind exposure for 10 in radiance, one-handed mastery as your grandmaster radiance trait. Fiery wrath as your minor zeal trait, vigor on crit as your adept minor in honour. Faster consecration cooldown, traited virtue of resolve to remove 3 conditions. 30 in valour means you have to give up some of this. Note that all of these traits are actually useful to the party unlike AH.

Playing guardian class alone with no traits at all already makes them more supportive than mesmer.

Not really. No boons on virtue activation, no condition conversion on use of shout, no vulnerability stacking on blind, no virtue refresh on kill. A completely untraited mesmer can still pull mobs better, can still double boons off of signet, can still portal players through certain points in a dungeon, can still boon strip through null field and disenchanter and can still apply group quickness.

Are you telling me that all this conversation was actually you trying to beat me with emotions? Well, I am trying to be generous and polite person, so if that brings you sense of relieve, you can get your cookie.

People think I’m angry when I post, but I’m not. I’m just blunt.

@Bloodgruve.6038:
It’s about choice between reliable smaller packets of damage and rather unreliable, but bigger packets. If I were to draw diagram comparing these two, shatter build’s wracks would look like larger spikes between overall lesser steady zones and medium drops needed for survival, while phantasm’s picture would look like steady ramp-up with each consecutive phantasm conjured with smaller drops needed for survival. Thing is, steady bits in both diagrams could drop down considerably if your phantasm stops working for any reason. This possibility is what makes shatters equal to phantasms. Of course, there’s always fight-specific variables, for instance in unpredictable aoe fights shatter would show better overall dps, while in predictable aoe fights phantasms will do better. Random nature of aggro still poses unexpected troubles though.

And when can they not be pulled with one curtain?

Any packs of more than five scattered mobs actually. Even lesser number will do the trick, if they are scattered beyond foci range. With greatsword you can crudely bump those to get them all in one foci pull afterwards.

Or… magic bullet.

It’s wonderful, but it’s not knockback and actually controls only 2 targets. Wave affects 5.

You don’t need to CC the last boss in dredge fractal except when it goes to regenerate, and interrupts work through defiant to stop the regeneration anyway.

Sometimes people screw up or boss suddenly finds guy on lever more appealing than anyone else. Having means to pull it back in that case never hurts. Speeds up things too.

You don’t need another way of sustain, especially AH when it involves 30 points in a pointless trait line for an ability you won’t even be using if you’re half decent.

More ways of sustain and points in useful line are always good things to have.

With shield you have a skill that provides protection (better to use a block or even hold the line) and a knockback bubble that absorbs projectiles. You don’t ever want to be knocking back mobs, and for projectile absorption you have shield of the avenger. On top of that, the abilities are on long cooldown. On the other hand, there is the actual good off-hand, the focus, which has a blind on 4 (+ 3 stacks of vuln which every dungeon guard should be traiting for) and the shield on 5 that detonates for a pretty nice burst if it hasn’t been used up within 3 seconds.
No decent guardian uses shield. No meta build involves shield. Shield is bad.

Let’s just say that more prot uptime you can provide for you party the better, knocking back mobs is another way to control them and another projectile destroyer(with nice heal) is sometimes much better than three blocks with blast finisher and blind even if that blind adds vulnerability. Cooldowns are near even too.
Any decent guardian(and I think any decent any class player) will use whatever fits best for encounter. Sometimes it’s shield.

I heard putting 30 in valour was bad and that you’re better off putting it in any other trait line because they actually have useful skills. Virtue of justice renewed on kill for 15 in radiance, blind exposure for 10 in radiance, one-handed mastery as your grandmaster radiance trait. Fiery wrath as your minor zeal trait, vigor on crit as your adept minor in honour. Faster consecration cooldown, traited virtue of resolve to remove 3 conditions. 30 in valour means you have to give up some of this. Note that all of these traits are actually useful to the party unlike AH.

Actually I don’t use AH in dungeons, my dungeon guardian build is more focused on honor/virtues, honestly this GM trait is better suited for wvw. However, guardian near his allies with staff and AH can still bring back most of his hp with one empower effectively making it second 6 heal and AH guardian with hammer is closest thing to tank we have in this game. In my opinion, AH is pug and new guardian-friendly and such guardian can effectively carry their teammates in any situation that gone wrong.

Not really. No boons on virtue activation, no condition conversion on use of shout, no vulnerability stacking on blind, no virtue refresh on kill. A completely untraited mesmer can still pull mobs better, can still double boons off of signet, can still portal players through certain points in a dungeon, can still boon strip through null field and disenchanter and can still apply group quickness.

You forgot to mention that even untraited guardian can still reliably provide mass stability and protection, retaliation, regeneration, ward control, massive projectile destroyers, heal, might, swiftness, blasts, blocks, cleanses. Has party-wide quickness too, though not as effective as time warp.

I can’t believe I even respond to posts like these.

Any packs of more than five scattered mobs actually. Even lesser number will do the trick, if they are scattered beyond foci range. With greatsword you can crudely bump those to get them all in one foci pull afterwards.

I want an example. And if it involves more than five mobs, I want it to be an example where it even matters whether you pull them or not, not like the svanir around the first HOTW p1 boss where they all just melt or the trash mobs at the start in Arah that die immediately. Because I seriously can’t think of any, either in dungeons or any of the fractals.

It’s wonderful, but it’s not knockback and actually controls only 2 targets. Wave affects 5.

The fact that it’s not knockback is a good thing.

More ways of sustain and points in useful line are always good things to have.

……….

but it’s not a useful line, it’s full of JUNK. THERE IS NOTHING A DUNGEON GUARDIAN WANTS IN VALOUR.

And you do not need AH for sustain, you have a ton of other, better ways … 400hp heal does not matter when boss is hitting for 20k.

Let’s just say that more prot uptime you can provide for you party the better

Blanking the next attack through blind > protection.

knocking back mobs is another way to control them

A bad way to control them. You’re not pulling them, you’re knocking them away so they’re not grouped up.

another projectile destroyer(with nice heal) is sometimes much better than three blocks with blast finisher and blind even if that blind adds vulnerability.

No, it really isn’t.

3%+ damage for your entire party is much better than a pitiful heal and poor projectile absorption.

Any decent guardian(and I think any decent any class player) will use whatever fits best for encounter. Sometimes it’s shield.

No, it’s never shield.

However, guardian near his allies with staff and AH can still bring back most of his hp with one empower effectively making it second 6 heal

A guardian near his allies with staff means 10 seconds on a low DPS weapon and giving an irrelevant heal which they could have given the team by popping their virtue.

AH guardian with hammer is closest thing to tank

Except tanks are never needed in this game and it’s impossible to tank due to RNG aggro.

AH is pug and new guardian-friendly and such guardian can effectively carry their teammates in any situation that gone wrong

It’s bad player friendly and is a crutch that any player intending to be half decent should get rid of ASAP.

stability and protection, retaliation, regeneration, ward control, massive projectile destroyers, heal, might, swiftness, blasts, blocks, cleanses

Rarely relevant, rarely relevant, never relevant, never relevant, relevant, relevant, rarely relevant, only relevant if through virtue or pre-fight (immediately swapping out), achievable by any other class, relevant, achievable by mesmer.

colesy.8490:

I want an example. And if it involves more than five mobs, I want it to be an example where it even matters whether you pull them or not, not like the svanir around the first HOTW p1 boss where they all just melt or the trash mobs at the start in Arah that die immediately. Because I seriously can’t think of any, either in dungeons or any of the fractals.

Dredge in dredge fractal, where packs of melee mobs are spiced up with scattered ranged mobs that also like to run around like their pants are on fire. Pinning packs to nearest wall speeds otherwise tedious fractal up. SE p2 scattered pack right after you rammed door with vehicle. Forum won’t let me list other examples and surely I might forget some.

The fact that it’s not knockback is a good thing.

Two targets versus five. Random bounce. It’s a good thing. On solo or duo targets.

but it’s not a useful line, it’s full of JUNK. THERE IS NOTHING A DUNGEON GUARDIAN WANTS IN VALOUR.
And you do not need AH for sustain, you have a ton of other, better ways … 400hp heal does not matter when boss is hitting for 20k.

Shield and mace traits are useful. Purity is good too. When boss is hitting for 20k and you have 20400, even 400hp would matter.

Blanking the next attack through blind > protection.

Multihit attacks, unblindable mobs and unshakable want to say hi.

A bad way to control them. You’re not pulling them, you’re knocking them away so they’re not grouped up.

No one in their sane mind will do that in the middle of mobs. You can and should knock them that way so their trajectory will cross a known obstacle, or previously pulled pack. No rocket science. Harder than GS5 and certainly harder than mesmer’s foci, but doable.

3%+ damage for your entire party is much better than a pitiful heal and poor projectile absorption.

Well, you see, guardian is not the only one that can stack vulnerability. Some other classes can do it much better. They can’t get partywide protection, heal and tons of projectile absorb in one pack though. Hovewer if your guardian is the only one who stacks and upkeeps vulnerability in your party(which is obviously not true, I hope) then be my guest and don’t use shield.

No, it’s never shield.

For your playstyle and party composition – perhaps. Just don’t let yourself think yours is the only true one – such attitude is first step on the short road to ignorance. I would be dissapointed.

A guardian near his allies with staff means 10 seconds on a low DPS weapon and giving an irrelevant heal which they could have given the team by popping their virtue.

So you don’t like staff because of it’s low innate DPS? Understandable. I won’t agree on “irrelevant” heal though. Even with 30 points in virtues, resolve recharges roughly two times slower than untraited staff’s empower, fifteen times slower than undetonated orb and roughly four times slower than detonated orb. All three skills combined heal more than virtue while also granting 12 stacks of might. You get ~two virtues and might for free when your actual virtue still recharges and you don’t even need traiting for that, the only drawbacks are range – which is avoided in melee groups and possible interrupts which can be avoided too. You also get awesome ward control, swiftness and Gandalf hat as bonus.

Except tanks are never needed in this game and it’s impossible to tank due to RNG aggro.

I’ll agree that it’s impossible to tank in this game, unless we get our hands on arenanet’s guild secret stash of aggro pills. Tanks are needed when party member screws it and need revival under fire. Pugs are prone to that.

It’s bad player friendly and is a crutch that any player intending to be half decent should get rid of ASAP.

Like it’s something bad. Before they get rid of it, it will help them feel the class, learn the ropes and find more suitable in the end.

Rarely relevant, rarely relevant, never relevant, never relevant, relevant, relevant, rarely relevant, only relevant if through virtue or pre-fight (immediately swapping out), achievable by any other class, relevant, achievable by mesmer.

Even that some of useful things you perceive as rarely or never relevant, it’s still much bigger and relevant than mesmer’s. That’s why we see more support guardians than support mesmers.

Dredge in dredge fractal, where packs of melee mobs are spiced up with scattered ranged mobs that also like to run around like their pants are on fire. Pinning packs to nearest wall speeds otherwise tedious fractal up. SE p2 scattered pack right after you rammed door with vehicle. Forum won’t let me list other examples and surely I might forget some

If they’re running around, GS push isn’t going to be reliable at all. Focus pull always is, as long as you position it far enough that mobs get pushed towards the centre of the curtain rather than thrown around.

Two targets versus five. Random bounce. It’s a good thing. On solo or duo targets.

Doesn’t it just bounce to the closest rather than random? Daze also disables the mob so that you can unload burst on it, whereas GS knockback just throws it out of range.

Multihit attacks, unblindable mobs and unshakable want to say hi.

I ddn’t say it was bad, just that blind is better. In the case of multi hit attacks still, there is dodge key, dredges are just grouped and bursted in seconds so prot hardly matters, and against bosses well they have mechanics you follow anyway, so blind not being fully efficient isn’t a problem since you just reflect and/or dodge the attacks.

Well, you see, guardian is not the only one that can stack vulnerability. Some other classes can do it much better. They can’t get partywide protection, heal and tons of projectile absorb in one pack though. Hovewer if your guardian is the only one who stacks and upkeeps vulnerability in your party(which is obviously not true, I hope) then be my guest and don’t use shield.

Or how about the guardian doesn’t use shield regardless since it’s plain bad and focus is better.

For your playstyle and party composition – perhaps. Just don’t let yourself think yours is the only true one – such attitude is first step on the short road to ignorance. I would be dissapointed.

It’s never shield.

So you don’t like staff because of it’s low innate DPS? Understandable. I won’t agree on “irrelevant” heal though. Even with 30 points in virtues, resolve recharges roughly two times slower than untraited staff’s empower, fifteen times slower than undetonated orb and roughly four times slower than detonated orb. All three skills combined heal more than virtue while also granting 12 stacks of might. You get ~two virtues and might for free when your actual virtue still recharges and you don’t even need traiting for that, the only drawbacks are range – which is avoided in melee groups and possible interrupts which can be avoided too. You also get awesome ward control, swiftness and Gandalf hat as bonus.

No, the heal is irrelevant. Virtue has a long recharge but will be the only burst heal you need, it also doesn’t root you like empower does (and you need to do the full channel for the HP gain). Your group will giveyou long-lasting might stacks through fire fields, and you can apply more by using virtue of justice for 3 stacks. All this while using a decent weapon set like GS/sword+focus.

I’ll agree that it’s impossible to tank in this game, unless we get our hands on arenanet’s guild secret stash of aggro pills. Tanks are needed when party member screws it and need revival under fire. Pugs are prone to that.

I, and people in my group res perfectly fine while being glass cannon. Yes, I was able to sit there on a 10.8k HP guardian and res in combat. You don’t need to compromise your entire build for extra toughness/vit just to res people better.

Like it’s something bad. Before they get rid of it, it will help them feel the class, learn the ropes and find more suitable in the end.

It should be a WvW/PvP ability. There, tankiness is actually relevant. Same for other stat combinations outside berserker and assassn, they should be restricted to PvP/WvW.

Even that some of useful things you perceive as rarely or never relevant, it’s still much bigger and relevant than mesmer’s. That’s why we see more support guardians than support mesmers.

You see more support guardians because people play this game with preconceptions of what classes are meant to be. It’s why you get QQ about not being able to tank, support being "irrelevant"etc. etc. because people joined the game thinking they could be a useless buffbot in their party when this game actually rewards being proactive, bringing DPS, support and control to your group while in full offensive gear.