Guild Wars 2

What I personally believe though is that the current implementation is flawed in that it doesn’t consider what illusions themselves offer when calculating the exchange. They aren’t generic and meaningless resources that have little inherent value until spent. Each phantasm is designed to offer something relatively unique, and even most clones differentiate themselves from weapon to weapon. Yet the balance of shatter doesn’t seem to account for any intent of illusion-summoning other than to fuel a slightly bigger destruction effect. You can certainly choose to ignore the ongoing benefits or control/support functions of illusions, and just treat them as generic resources, but that doesn’t mean those benefits don’t exist.

Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration both offer nothing more than a damage pay-off in exchange for all your illusions, but most (not all) illusions will already be offering you damage simply by staying alive. The decision on whether to exchange or not usually comes down to simple mathematics about what damage can be expected from the illusions if they can stay alive, and what damage the shatter will offer. Whichever is bigger, you might as well take. Admittedly you also weigh up the other defensive benefits you get from having the distraction of your illusions, but this can be simply balanced usually as long as more than one illusion-summoning skill is off recharge. To me, that’s a mechanic that doesn’t really offer anything profession-defining nor terribly tactical or interesting. It certainly offers twitch based rewards – if you shatter at the precise right moment your numbers will be better – but not really what I would personally call interesting decisions.

Diversion and Distortion I would probably consider the best implemented shatters, simply because they offer something that the illusions won’t have already been providing, so the exchange is more interesting and tactical. Unfortunately, for a PvE player like myself, both seem far more useful for PvP and WvW battles where additional skill interruption and a few seconds of invulnerability on a long recharge can better be deployed. Unless traited, neither are really that useful in general play outside of very specific situations, such as for a large boss fight, and even then the benefit is extremely twitch-reliant.

Imagine, if you will, a condition-focused profession whose core mechanic relies upon reaping benefits by removing all your conditions on an enemy. I suspect that it would be very difficult trying to balance the ongoing effects of those conditions with the pay-off for wiping them – in both PvE and PvP – in such a way that players feel that both condition-focused and cure-focused builds are viable, fun and synergise well with other professions. That would seem especially true if the pay-off is only going to be a slightly different (not noticeably larger) number to what the conditions would already have been doing if they were just left to build up on the target. I believe the same logic applies to an illusion-focused profession whose core mechanic relies upon reaping benefits by removing all your illusions on an enemy.

After watching these forums for a while, I’ve come to accept that I’m probably in the minority, and that’s quite okay – I don’t expect a profession to be built around my personal preferences. I do think however that it’s worthwhile having a civil discussion about how the profession could be improved for a relatively noticeable subset of players, particularly if a way could be found that doesn’t detract from the enjoyment of all those who enjoy the utility of the current shatter abilities.

I like Mesmers, I like illusions (particularly clones), and I even like the idea of conjuring very rapid-fire, short-lived illusory images. I just don’t think the shatter abilities are well-tuned for all modes of play, nor do they mesh very well with the traits, abilities and gameplay they could otherwise complement.

Edit: Corrected spelling, oops.

Imagine, if you will, a condition-focused profession whose core mechanic relies upon reaping benefits by removing all your conditions on an enemy. I suspect that it would be very difficult trying to balance the ongoing effects of those conditions with the pay-off for wiping them – in both PvE and PvP – in such a way that players feel that both condition-focused and cure-focused builds are viable, fun and synergise well with other professions. That would seem especially true if the pay-off is only going to be a slightly different (not noticeably larger) number to what the conditions would already have been doing if they were just left to build up on the target. I believe the same logic applies to an illusion-focused profession whose core mechanic relies upon reaping benefits by removing all your illusions on an enemy

This is the crux of my problem with current design of the mesmer.

Other things to note:
Cry of frustration has double the recharge of Mind Wrack for no good reason. The only effect this has is that power shatter builds are preferred over condition shatter builds. The direct damage component on Cry of Frustration is another useless feature of this shatter. Either you run power build and then you don’t use CoF, or you run condition build and you use CoF, in which case the direct damage component is really small and inconsequential. They should simply remove the direct damage and add duration to confusion.

Another consequence of the shatter system is that it’s really hard to use utility phantasms like Phantasmal Defender.

I agree that our current core design has the problem of heterogenous illusions being used by homogenous (1,2,3 charges, with no care what those charges entail) shatters.

One way this could be alleviated would be this:

• Remove all buffs/debuffs/damage from Clones except for Sharper Images (this is necessary for another step, and ofc would require a fair amount of rebalancing with regards to some weapons.
• Categorize Phantasms into Ranged, Melee (Swordsman, Zerger, Mariner, Warden) and Utility (Defender, Disenchanter) types.
• Change Shatters to be a type of shatter-mechanic, not a payload. F1 is single target enemy, F2 is AE enemy, F3 is single target friendly, F4 is selfdefence and ofc happens instantly.
• Then, give each type of payload (Clone / Ranged Phantasm / Melee Phantasm / Utility Phantasm) a specific effect it adds to the shatter. These can be the same for multiple of the payloads.

Ideas:

Clone
Single Attack: Damage
AE Attack: Damage, less than the above ofc.
Single Friendly: Random Boon.
Defensive: 1s Distortion.

Ranged Phantasm
Single Attack: 3 stacks of Vulnerability + Shatter becomes a ranged attack.
AE Attack: 2 stacks of Vulnerability. Shatter again becomes a ranged attack.
Single Friendly: 1 stack of Fury + Shatter becomes ranged.
Defensive: 1 stack of Retaliation + 1 stack of Fury.

Melee Phantasm
Single Attack: 3 stacks of Vulnerability + 1 stack of Bleeding.
AE Attack: 2 stacks of Vulnerability + Burning.
Single Friendly: 1 stack of Regeneration.
Defensive: 1 stack of Regeneration + 1 stack of Protection.

Utility Phantasm
Single Attack: Causes 1 stack of Confusion + 2 stacks of Weakness.
AE Attack: Causes 1 stack of Confusion.
Single Friendly: Heals the target.
Defensive: 1s Reflection.

These would add up according to what you send away.
In other words, have 1 Clone + a Berserker + a Defender, then press F2:

• some Damage
• 2 stacks of Vulnerability
• Burning
• 1 stack of Confusion

To all enemies in the target area, however the illusions still have to run there (no ranged Phantasm in the mix).

Ah, clones..the reason I gave up my Mesmer.

I wanted so badly to play DWsword Mesmer. But man oh man, that is a horrible build. Hit like wet noodle, lack of good heal, and you don’t even get clones to help you (until like OP said, spec for it).

DW Swords? You could do with a 2H offset for ranged combat, then go 20/20/30/0/0 and focus on on-interrupt and on-clone-death traits. Since you regenerate clones hellishly fast, you can cause a lot of havoc in WvW especially – it’s np if they kill your clones after all – and in instances or smaller fights, you excel at interrupting (Sword #4, GS #5, MoD).

Roven Leafsong.8917:

My personal view, however, is that this profession mechanic is not contributing as much cohesion and fun as it could

I would say that in general, no mechanic in the game for any class is “as good as” players imagine in their minds. Steal, Adrenaline, Death Shoud, clones, phantasms, initiative, ranger pets — there’s something to complain about and things to improve about pretty much all of those mechanics, and there always will be.

Shatters could, in general, use improvements, much like almost anything else in the game.

However, I don’t consider them deficient as-is, unlike many players. I don’t think there is any degree of overhaul required to make them effective. Specifically:

– and it often feels to me like it interrupts the ‘flow’ of what my character is actually trying to do.

You have not completed the learning curve of shatters, then.

In the sense of consumable resources, it’s just like a Warrior’s adrenaline, a Thief’s initiative, or a Necromancer’s life-force. That’s completely fine.
The difference with shatters comes from the fact that the unspent resources themselves are far more interesting and valuable (and I would say profession-defining) than the pay-off.

From a playstyle perspective, you realize that Mesmers can “refill” our resource pool much, much, much more quickittenhan any Necro or Warrior with life-force. This is the crux of learning to play with shatters + phantasms at the same time — timing everything so that you reload clones and phantasms immediately on shatter in a fluid rotation.

If I’m in my groove and not playing sloppy (and tryharding the shatters, meaning I use Mirror Images, which I don’t actually use for real PvP combat), I can actually maintain 3 purple bubbles continuously, for a full minute straight, while shattering on Mind Wrack and Cry cooldown (you can get good practice with this farming that kitteny Troll Champion, if you spend time there, bleh). Of course that’s a mix of clones and phantasms. To maximize phantasm uptime with shatters, I’ll drop a Mind Wrack every ~15s.

Sidenote: I do this without overwriting any clones.

The decision on whether to exchange or not usually comes down to simple mathematics about what damage can be expected from the illusions if they can stay alive, and what damage the shatter will offer. Whichever is bigger, you might as well take.

There is no decision:

You either afk phantasms, or you shatter and refresh phantasms for more damage. It is unequivocally more damage to shatter and refresh if you are using 2 phantasms or less.

The only situation where there is any question at all is when you are attempting 3x phantasms, which is unreasonable in most cases, although it does actually become worthy of analysis against the alternative cost of not using clone abilities (where Mirror Blade hits as hard as a phantasm on a shorter cooldown, barring iS+recharge).

I mean, a 4x MW hits a good bit harder than any phantasm in the game. Even harder than iWarden’s full whirl, which is saying something. It is far from a trivial comparison.

ManCaptain.3154:

Cry of frustration has double the recharge of Mind Wrack for no good reason.

I have a build that would be phenomenally overpowered if Cry had as low a cooldown as Mind Wrack. While I could imagine how nice it would be to have a low cd on Cry, I don’t think it would be balanced.

This is VERY well written. While I love my shatter mesmer, this definitely explains some of the “issues” I’ve had. I wouldn’t pick a mesmer for ANYTHING else, but some of these highlight important issues.

That being said, some of these “issues” would require complete overhauls to fix, and I don’t think that’s a reasonable thing to expect now that the game was released. I think it’s fine to leave shatters in place, as they are, but with tweaks. As in, for someone using a GS or 1h Sword (or any direct damage weapon), have shatters continue to work, as is.

For a staff, or even OH pistols (not sure how you would handle Sword/Pistol), have Mindwrack instead put a heavy bleed on the target, F2 do ZERO direct damage and more confusion, have F3 apply an AoE blind instead of Daze on a single target, and have F4 give a moderate-duration protection instead of immunity. Something like this would add more flavor and fit better into class mechanics.

Carighan.6758:

One way this could be alleviated would be this:

• Remove all buffs/debuffs/damage from Clones except for Sharper Images (this is necessary for another step, and ofc would require a fair amount of rebalancing with regards to some weapons.
• Categorize Phantasms into Ranged, Melee (Swordsman, Zerger, Mariner, Warden) and Utility (Defender, Disenchanter) types.
• Change Shatters to be a type of shatter-mechanic, not a payload. F1 is single target enemy, F2 is AE enemy, F3 is single target friendly, F4 is selfdefence and ofc happens instantly.
• Then, give each type of payload (Clone / Ranged Phantasm / Melee Phantasm / Utility Phantasm) a specific effect it adds to the shatter. These can be the same for multiple of the payloads.

I LOVE this idea, much more than mine. Kudos, sir.

EasymodeX.4062:

You have not completed the learning curve of shatters, then.

That’s an interesting perspective on mechanics that aren’t meaningful or satisfying – you should just force yourself to keep playing until you darn well like it. A somewhat draconian view of what motivates people to play games I would have thought, not to mention one that assumes all players experience exactly the same sense of ‘flow’.

I don’t think it’s an ‘effectiveness’ question, as you maintain, because I’m not saying that shatter is ineffectual. It causes damage and contributes to a Mesmer’s damage over time, absolutely. What I’m arguing is that the design of that contribution has little synergy with the other mechanics of the profession – particularly if you choose not to follow an optimal shatter build.

EasymodeX.4062:

In the sense of consumable resources, it’s just like a Warrior’s adrenaline, a Thief’s initiative, or a Necromancer’s life-force. That’s completely fine.
The difference with shatters comes from the fact that the unspent resources themselves are far more interesting and valuable (and I would say profession-defining) than the pay-off.

From a playstyle perspective, you realize that Mesmers can “refill” our resource pool much, much, much more quickittenhan any Necro or Warrior with life-force. This is the crux of learning to play with shatters + phantasms at the same time — timing everything so that you reload clones and phantasms immediately on shatter in a fluid rotation.

Indeed. I’ll just repeat the next two paragraphs from where you quoted in case that was missed:

Yes, illusions can be very quickly re-summoned and hence resource accumulation is swift even if you are frequently shattering your illusions, that’s absolutely true. Certainly I’m not arguing that shatter is exclusive to illusion use. Nor am I trying to say that any form of an exchange mechanic where you sacrifice one benefit for a completely different benefit cannot work.

What I personally believe though is that the current implementation is flawed in that it doesn’t consider what illusions themselves offer when calculating the exchange. They aren’t generic and meaningless resources that have little inherent value until spent. Each phantasm is designed to offer something relatively unique, and even most clones differentiate themselves from weapon to weapon. Yet the balance of shatter doesn’t seem to account for any intent of illusion-summoning other than to fuel a slightly bigger destruction effect. You can certainly choose to ignore the ongoing benefits or control/support functions of illusions, and just treat them as generic resources, but that doesn’t mean those benefits don’t exist.

EasymodeX.4062:

The decision on whether to exchange or not usually comes down to simple mathematics about what damage can be expected from the illusions if they can stay alive, and what damage the shatter will offer. Whichever is bigger, you might as well take.

There is no decision:

You either afk phantasms, or you shatter and refresh phantasms for more damage. It is unequivocally more damage to shatter and refresh if you are using 2 phantasms or less.

For the sake of the argument, let’s assume this is true. Surely that only strengthens the argument I am making:

To me, that’s a mechanic that doesn’t really offer anything profession-defining nor terribly tactical or interesting. It certainly offers twitch based rewards – if you shatter at the precise right moment your numbers will be better – but not really what I would personally call interesting decisions.

I would make two further notes about your last comments.

First, if you are able to engage in combat that involves summoning illusions while away from the keyboard, surely you must recognise that this constitutes botting. I very much doubt that’s what you actually mean, but if so, this is clearly against the terms of play.

Second, your analysis and testing must have returned different results to my own. When I removed confounding elements such as traits and gear and tested damage numbers against target golems in the mists, I found that there were multiple illusions (staff clones, warlock, duelist, warden, swordsman) that could noticeably outpace the damage of their Mind Wrack contribution.

Excluding the common understanding that you should always shatter if the illusions are about to be killed or you can fully replace your set with equivalent-or-superior illusions, I actually didn’t calculate that it was optimal to wrack on cooldown. It’s not definitively better to maintain illusions indefinitely, particularly once traiting and stat choices influence the numbers, but neither would it seem definitively better to shatter only to replace a set with a single phantasm or inferior clones.

Even if I have miscalculated there, that discrepancy does not really change the reasoning behind this discussion, because I don’t believe the issue lies in ‘effectiveness’ or quantitative damage numbers. As I’ve tried to explain, my personal view is that repeatedly burning off the unique conditions you apply to an enemy for nothing more than slightly more damage than they would already have been causing through their duration is neither very ‘Mesmery’ nor very fun, especially as a defining mechanic.

Roven Leafsong.8917:

EasymodeX.4062:

You have not completed the learning curve of shatters, then.

That’s an interesting perspective on mechanics that aren’t meaningful or satisfying – you should just force yourself to keep playing until you darn well like it. A somewhat draconian view of what motivates people to play games I would have thought, not to mention one that assumes all players experience exactly the same sense of ‘flow’.

I don’t think it’s an ‘effectiveness’ question, as you maintain, because I’m not saying that shatter is ineffectual. It causes damage and contributes to a Mesmer’s damage over time, absolutely. What I’m arguing is that the design of that contribution has little synergy with the other mechanics of the profession – particularly if you choose not to follow an optimal shatter build.

You don’t need an optimal shatter build to notice that your Phantasms have finished attacking and that your cooldowns are done. At that point, you can hit shatter and resummon. The whole point of the illusion mechanic is sacrifice anyway, whether it is actively doing it (via shatters) or passively doing it (via resummons or the illusion getting killed).

All I can contribute to the conversation is this: Of all the fellow mesmers I’ve spoken to, I have only met two in game that actually use their shatter abilities. Most of them think they are either worthless or downright ineffective while a large chunk of the others just plain don’t know what the abilities do.

(After all, if I have three illusions up and hit F1, I see them run towards the target with at least two of the three exploding prematurely and doing nothing. The third does so little damage it’s hardly noticeable. So who would blame someone for thinking the abilities didn’t work?)

That is all I’m gonna pitch in.

The only thing I would like to see for shatters (and Mes in general) is more coherent trait options – like Illusionary Elasticity in Chaos line, useful master-level shatter trait in Illusions, change the “effect on death” traits so they don’t directly contradict the class mechanic…
Otherwise shatter is fine.

I feel the comparison to shattering vs maintaining phantasms is flawed, so much depends on the situation (for example phantasm builds will be weaker versus multiple mobs, stronger when you can protect and maintain them and vice versa).

Phantasms should be separate from clones and shouldn’t die with shatters. Once this is done, I think a lot of balancing will be needed such as possibly nerfing phantasm damage, limiting amount of phantasms allowed to be up, etc. but at least shatters won’t clash with phantasms. Who cares if the clones get shattered since they’re pretty weak anyway and can be resummoned a lot faster than phantasms can.

I disagree…it would be totally unbalanced if phantasms didnt get shattered too.
Edit: On PvP point of view, probably different in PvE.

Basically, you are asking for :
1/ passive sustained dps (phantasm) for the duration of the fight
2/ while being able to launch controlled burst (clone shatter)
Ok we can call ourselves rogues in light armor. jk

imho, phantams by design deal dps when left alone, but they die somewhat at first damage .. They are all illusions, it makes sense that you just need to swing at it once and poof it vanishes.

On the other hand, I agree shatter design is far from perfect.

Main problem is that shattered illusions should hit their target no matter what, at this stage (being shattered) they are not illusions anymore, its hex/direct damage bombing. Problem is, illusions are stuck into their “i die at first hit” design, thus lowering shatter benefits or rather nullifying it (dodge/etc) once u face someone who knows how to act against shatter.

Thats the main problem with mesmers whatever our build is :
- Completely op versus people that don’t know much how mesmer work or how to counter us
- Really below average once you face an “experienced” opponent

Oh of course we can always do our ‘escape’ tricks, but once we go attack mode everything is so predictable that you easily find yourself outplayed, and whatever your player skill, because your class mechanic (clones and phantasms) don’t work at all against a good player.
And you don’t need that much experience to completely counter all the mesmer mechanic.

Also, we should have different builds, viable alternatives. And least to say, traits don’t bring much to the table on that point : all illusion centric, nothing much for mesmer, choose one tactic and fully trait into for it to work against random foe.

TL/DR:
Our weapon skills do low damage, due to the illusion mechanic (see my first comment or it would be op for real)
Our clone mechanic is too esaily countered
= mesmers are fun for sure but I think we better have 1 or 2 alts, cause I know at some point I’ll just shelve the mesmer.

I would certainly consider a change to the way the F1-F4 buttons work. Much like an Elementalist selections a current element, so should we choose a preferred shatter.

Any time a shatter button is selected (or re-selected), the current shattering process occurs, as normal.

If the shatter button is left alone, the creation of new clones/phantasms triggers a shatter based on what illusions are currently out.

- If slots are available, the illusion appears as normal.

- If slots are full (2 clones and a phantasm), then the introduction of the new illusions will trigger a shatter on the existing clones, as you’d generally expect/prefer:
– - New clone, same or less than existing clones. Trigger a shatter on existing clones only (not phantasms) and create new clones in slots.

- – New clones, but more than existing clones in slots. Shatter an existing clone, but do not create ‘extra’ clone. If no clones exist…not sure if it should ‘force’ overwrite a phantasm or not create the illusion. I would expect that most people would prefer clone never overriding a phantasm. (The idea being that the Mesmer is attempting to manage three illusions and is unable to create the newest one.)

- – New phantasm. Triggers the shatter of a clone (if any), otherwise your oldest phantasm (or one of the same type?).

As part of this idea, I would like to envision the slots as Cp – cP – cP (or reversed), where a capital indicates priority for that type of illusion. The first slot a clone created would take precedence over even a phantasm in the slot, thereby always allowing for a ‘new’ clone creation to occur, based on the fact that you’ve dodged, etc. and thus you would generally want that newest illusion to be created.

The 2nd and 3rd slots would always have a priority for phantasms. Newest phantasms would go into slots from the right and clones from the left, so as you start to create illusions, you could end up with (c – 0 – p) set of clones (meaning a single clone up in slot 1 and a single phantasm up in slot three.).

I think this change would allow for various playstyles, without having the shattering action being seen as a negative result. Those that want to shatter on purpose/timing can do so, but those that would prefer not to can just wait for their actions (creation of a new illusion) to gain the same net effect. Switching shatter type can’t be done on a whim, as it will shatter all your illusions (including phantasms, so no rebalancing needed).

The timing on the shatter buttons can still remain. If your actions have caused a shatter of a certain type, the cooldown kicks in on that shatter (others can be selected). If the cooldown is still in place at the time of a creation of a new illusions, the old ones just fade and are replaced, not shatter. This means that a lot of re-balancing will not need to be done, due to the new process not allowing more shatters than before.

New coding need to manage the illusion creation priority perhaps and move the shatter effect to be triggered on illusions ‘overriding;’ existing ones, but overall not a huge change to the mechanic overall.

Thoughts?

Would be nice to have a developers opinion on some of the things proposed. I’m curious as to why they decided to go this rout with this class but have heard nothing from the developers as to why this class is this way. Some incite would prob help the community.

Sorry for off top, but my whole opinion is as such: Forget shatter issues – First fix/up/change/redo – Scepter/Mantras. As for now in sPvP they lack what is needed to be viable/interesting and strong.

P.S. Scepter – Gotta be kiddin me.. summon 1 clone after 3 second of “doin base damage” that does nothing… in sPvP 3 second of doin nothing may cost you very much. Juts for example – in my build i summon 6-8 clones in 1-2 second time and they can do a lot of stuff. 1 clone in 3 second cant do much..

EasymodeX.4062:

I have a build that would be phenomenally overpowered if Cry had as low a cooldown as Mind Wrack. While I could imagine how nice it would be to have a low cd on Cry, I don’t think it would be balanced.

No it wouldn’t be overpowered. Say you have IP trait, and maxed CD. You can CoF for 8 confusion stacks which can deal 1360 dmg every time someone uses a skill.
On my build I can mind wrack for up to 8k in dmg and 4 stacks of confusion hitting for 360 every time someone uses a skill.

I’d say that these 2 effects are quite comparable in power, but I can do mine twice as often.

ManCaptain.3154:

EasymodeX.4062:

I have a build that would be phenomenally overpowered if Cry had as low a cooldown as Mind Wrack. While I could imagine how nice it would be to have a low cd on Cry, I don’t think it would be balanced.

No it wouldn’t be overpowered. Say you have IP trait, and maxed CD. You can CoF for 8 confusion stacks which can deal 1360 dmg every time someone uses a skill.
On my build I can mind wrack for up to 8k in dmg and 4 stacks of confusion hitting for 360 every time someone uses a skill.

I’d say that these 2 effects are quite comparable in power, but I can do mine twice as often.

And then you’d basically have permanent Retaliation, when you throw in the trait that gives you Retaliation when you use Cry of Frustration.

Great post OP.

Shatter is a horrible mechanic for a class that has so much potential. It creates all other deficiencies that Mesmers experience in PvE for the reasons you listed and more.

If Shatter were simply replaced with non-damaging Clone generation for utility and mobility (think Blink and Decoy and Phase Retreat), weapon skills could be balanced and filled out (boons/conditions/effects/etc.) like they are with other classes, we’d have the same class we do today and we wouldn’t have to feel like we are constantly working against ourselves.

Interesting read. I wonder though if we are playing the same Mesmer. On paper your thoughts sound logical and well thought out. After reading it I thought Mesmer is not worth playing. Then I logged in and had a lot of fun playing mine. Honestly the only thing I could ask for is swiftness on a utility slot. That’s it, absolutely everything else rocks.

On the actual mechanic, I think it works very well as is. The proof is in the pudding. We have builds that shatter, builds that don’t, and builds who do or don’t, depending. It all works. I think the disparity between illusions makes the choice to shatter a lot more interesting – it’s not always going to benefit you as much. If I have three warlocks out, mind wrack is a lot less tempting than if they were great sword clones standing in AoE. If all illusions were created equal, it would always make sense to shatter, or never. The answer would never change.

Thank you for an interesting post, but I completely disagree.

ManCaptain.3154:

EasymodeX.4062:

I have a build that would be phenomenally overpowered if Cry had as low a cooldown as Mind Wrack. While I could imagine how nice it would be to have a low cd on Cry, I don’t think it would be balanced.

No it wouldn’t be overpowered. Say you have IP trait, and maxed CD. You can CoF for 8 confusion stacks which can deal 1360 dmg every time someone uses a skill.
On my build I can mind wrack for up to 8k in dmg and 4 stacks of confusion hitting for 360 every time someone uses a skill.

I’d say that these 2 effects are quite comparable in power, but I can do mine twice as often.

With only an average investment in condition damage, that 8-stack of confusion is hitting for much more like 2300+ dmg per activation.

I also find shatter to be a somewhat broken mechanic atm. For builds that focus on illusion effectiveness it is almost entirely useless. Its predictible and takes away mesmers deceptiveness. Whereas in comparison look at Rangers, Thiefs, Gaurdians, or pretty much any other classes “special ability” and it is almost always useful.

Carighan.6758:

I agree that our current core design has the problem of heterogenous illusions being used by homogenous (1,2,3 charges, with no care what those charges entail) shatters.

One way this could be alleviated would be this:

• Remove all buffs/debuffs/damage from Clones except for Sharper Images (this is necessary for another step, and ofc would require a fair amount of rebalancing with regards to some weapons.
• Categorize Phantasms into Ranged, Melee (Swordsman, Zerger, Mariner, Warden) and Utility (Defender, Disenchanter) types.
• Change Shatters to be a type of shatter-mechanic, not a payload. F1 is single target enemy, F2 is AE enemy, F3 is single target friendly, F4 is selfdefence and ofc happens instantly.
• Then, give each type of payload (Clone / Ranged Phantasm / Melee Phantasm / Utility Phantasm) a specific effect it adds to the shatter. These can be the same for multiple of the payloads.

Ideas:

Clone
Single Attack: Damage
AE Attack: Damage, less than the above ofc.
Single Friendly: Random Boon.
Defensive: 1s Distortion.

Ranged Phantasm
Single Attack: 3 stacks of Vulnerability + Shatter becomes a ranged attack.
AE Attack: 2 stacks of Vulnerability. Shatter again becomes a ranged attack.
Single Friendly: 1 stack of Fury + Shatter becomes ranged.
Defensive: 1 stack of Retaliation + 1 stack of Fury.

Melee Phantasm
Single Attack: 3 stacks of Vulnerability + 1 stack of Bleeding.
AE Attack: 2 stacks of Vulnerability + Burning.
Single Friendly: 1 stack of Regeneration.
Defensive: 1 stack of Regeneration + 1 stack of Protection.

Utility Phantasm
Single Attack: Causes 1 stack of Confusion + 2 stacks of Weakness.
AE Attack: Causes 1 stack of Confusion.
Single Friendly: Heals the target.
Defensive: 1s Reflection.

These would add up according to what you send away.
In other words, have 1 Clone + a Berserker + a Defender, then press F2:

• some Damage
• 2 stacks of Vulnerability
• Burning
• 1 stack of Confusion

To all enemies in the target area, however the illusions still have to run there (no ranged Phantasm in the mix).

Give me this. Holy crappin’ christ, give me this. I’d definitely use shatters if they worked like this.

As it is now, no. Never. Sure I only PvE, but I’ve never felt like I needed to shatter. Ever. Phantasms, for me, do more alive than they ever do by killing them off with my own key presses.

Seriously though, change them to fit Carighan’s idea, and I’d be all over my F keys on my mesmer.

I’ve always felt that phantasms should just be a seperate thing from clones. No longer taking up illusion slots, and not being shatterable but instead just having an activated skill that “shatters” them like Spirit Weapons.

It would be sad no longer being able to have up to 3 of the same phantasm though, and would probably increase pet spam even more, so IDK.

Shriketalon.1937:

Low and behold, we have phantasm builds and shatter builds, and the two loathe each other.

20/20/0/0/30
Shatter/Phantasm hybrid.
They two styles LOVE each other. Not sure what you’re going on about.