Guild Wars 2

Continuing due to post length limits…

3) None of the mandatory mechanics are fulfilling their original purpose.

When presenting the Mesmer, Anet presented each of their mechanics to strut their stuff. Clones allowed the Mesmer to trick the opponent and fool them into not knowing who is real. Phantasms were the revamped hexes, allowing the Mesmer to sustain unique spell effects on their enemies. And Shatters made the Mesmer unpredictable, throwing the foe for a loop and compounding the mindgames.

Put all together, however, these mechanics have poisoned one another.

Clones can’t even deceive a blind goldfish. All the ranged clones stand stalk still, something no player ever does. They don’t use the master’s healthbar and instead get conjured at full health, they don’t mimic skills to any degree, and they don’t even wield offhand weapons still, even after that bug was reported months ago. Anet hasn’t lifted a finger to make clones more deceptive since the Mesmer was first introduced, and the result is a pathos-inducing mechanic hoping to find a reason to exist. But hey, at least they shatter.

Phantasms also shatter. In order to make that work and magically overcome the problem that forced a change to the Warrior’s adrenaline, phantasms have sacrificed and sacrificed. Their low health, slow-as-mud fire rate, and their lack of persistence beyond a single target’s death are all due to their shackled state. As a result, the “living hex” mechanic has produced exactly two viable forms: phantasms that deal damage, and the Warden. The former is completely unnecessary: not only does it contradict earlier Anet design via the passive/active thing, but it means taking damage out of the player’s hands so that NPCs can deal it out.

The Warden, however, is a breath of fresh air. I would also argue that it’s how all phantasms should work: a battlefield control ability that persists until killed. It’s a pity the mechanic is being wasted otherwise. The point of being a persistent hex is to be persistent, and chaining them to the shatter mechanic makes the phantasms system lackluster at best, impotent at worst.

And finally, we get to Shatters, and their extreme predictability. Every single build focusing on the main mechanic currently does the same thing: produce as many illusions as possible and bomb the hell out of the foe. While this is a perfectly valid playstyle option, it makes little sense to demand that everyone bring the exact same four attacks that are massively telegraphed in the name of being unpredictable and adaptable.

None of these mechanics are allowed to flower to fruition, and it’s a direct result of requiring everyone to run with clones, phantasms, and shatters despite their blatant hostility towards one another.

4) The Mesmer philosophy is incompatible with the trait system.

Despite the above claim that the mechanics poison one another, there is a claim that harmony can be found in the discord. If there is a golden ratio of recharges and relative damage, the Mesmer can ride the wind and find the calm eye of the storm, summoning and shattering in a rhythm that makes everything work. The resulting mastery of the mechanics produces a potent prodigy of powerful paradox. Get the ratio right and balance the class correctly, and all will be well.

That is, until you throw traiting into the mix.

See, even if there’s a golden ratio, it falls apart the instant you let the player dictate power over their build. Since players can choose to beef up phantasms or empower shatters, they are basically forced to pick their favorite of the mandatory mechanics and leave the others by the wayside. No matter how much balancing Anet does, players have the ability to throw off that ratio and make one of the contradictory mechanics outside the others. And speaking of traits…

And further still…

5) The Mesmer’s reality is unhealthily dependent on the trait system.

Intentional juxtaposition is intentional. If there’s one thing that describes half the Mesmer stuff out there, it’s the phrase “sucks until you trait it”. The system is way too dependent upon optional builds to fix mandatory systems.

Shatters hit like a wet noodle? There’s a trait for that.
Phantasms taking a nap between attacks? There’s a trait for that.
Shatters STILL weaker than your phantasms attacking? There’s a trait for that.
Oh, you wanted conditions on your shatters? There’s a trait for that.
Clones are being annihilated by damage and need more health? There’s a trait for that.
Illusions still being torn apart by AoE, and you want to get something back? There’s a trait for that.
Illusions being produced too slowly? There’s a trait for that.
The main mechanics have no support options? There’s a trait for that.
You need AoE? Are you sure you’re playing the right class? Well, no matter, there’s a trait for that.
Oh, you want traits left over for your weapons and utilities? Too bad.

We don’t have that many traits, and relying on them to fix situations where single-target-fragile-NPC-minion-bombing doesn’t work is not good design. Too many problems with the system are “solved” by making optional builds for mandatory mechanics that actually function. A better design would be viable out of the box, augmented by further choices.

6) The Mesmer is held together by hodgepodge balance.

The Mesmer profession has a universal system of clones, phantasms, and shatters, but in practice none of it is working right. In every instance, the system is full of workarounds and quick fixes that negate the entire point of making the system universal.

*Staves get terrible damage out of shatters, since Mind Wrack is direct damage and staves rely on conditions. Thus, staff clones deal far more damage than other clones.
*Swords create illusions at point blank range when they’re in an enemy’s face, allowing melee hits to strike master and clone. Thus, the vulnerability bone has been tossed in their direction.
*Scepters can’t reliably generate clones with their counter skill if they aren’t being attacked, thus they get two clone generators via the main attack chain.
*Greatswords are supposed to attack far away, but illusions have a greater delay to their minion bombing as a result. Thus, greatsword illusions are generated right by the target. Hope you didn’t want to deceive anyone.

There isn’t a single main weapon choice that works by default. Every single one of them is working around the universal system rather than with it. Since that’s the case, why is the system using a universal standard in the first place?

7) The Shatter mechanic has no future.

Bit of an alarmist statement, I admit. But consider this: there is no where for the mechanic to go. Everyone is using the same shatters. Everyone is expected to have larger and smaller single target illusions summoning at approximately equal rates. Every new weapon will have half its recharging skill slots dedicated to doing the same thing we’ve already seen with slightly different numbers attached to it. 100% of Mesmers in every scenario are supposed to make use of fragile NPCs and minion bombing, regardless of whether or not those things are actually helpful.

This is not good design. The Mesmer is being held back by its three mandatory mechanics and its disparity, rather than thriving on a single main mechanic and the interweavings with many optional builds. Thus, I finish with Anet’s own Golden Rule #5…

Do it well or don’t do it at all

Shattering is not done well, and it is not up to par with the other class mechanics. The Mesmer design deserves far more polish, especially with attention towards the lessons learned from other professions. “At the end of the day, if something doesn’t quite turn out the way you wanted, it’s not failing, it’s playing—and you grow for having done it.” Anet has had a lot of time and energy to play with the Mesmer, but it’s time to grow out of the flawed assumption that single-target-fragile-NPCs-that-die-when-target-dies-and-get-sacrificed-for-minion-bombing-maneuvers is a viable design for all forms of gameplay.

That was a good read. I agree with you on most points – I’ve never been a shatter fan from a thematic perspective, but mechanically it seemed to work on paper. Yet what you say about the trait system in particular is dead on – the active decision a player should face between shattering and maintaining their illusions is completely undermined by how traiting requires you to choose one or the other and follow it completely.

A wonderful and eloquently argued perspective on the shatter mechanic.

I couldn’t find anything in what you’ve written that I disagree with. Bravo.

Like its been said – while i agree with some of your points others i do not. Maybe my play style is different to yours. Maybe i just haven’t seen it yet?

Yes clones need more health without having to trait it
Yes clones need their AI fixed or some control be given to the player
Yes having to use your phantasms during shatter imo is a waste of good deeps.
Yes the class needs to love
Yes Phantasms and Clones should persist after your targets death.
Yes i believe the Mesmer lacks damage

…….But the class is still fun to play. Claiming its outright broken is an overstatement. Sure it needs tweaks here and there but this is achieved by good suggestions not blatant “its broken and will never work” statements.
While i find the HP of clones/Phantasms low even after traited, this can be fixed.. make them too tanky though and you make the class overpowered.
While the AI for Phantasms and Clones is currently zero this could be fixed by 2 commands “follow” and “scatter”

While shattering your Phantasms is crap because you lose 80% of your damage – different ratios of conditions applied could be implemented. Lets face it … its pretty funny when you explode confusion onto your opponent and watch the big numbers roll as they kill themselves. Phantasms should just apply double the normal amount.

I 100% agree on the Phantasms persisting after the targets death – enough said. having to rebuild your damage slowly as you wait for the Cool down is a pain.

And yes i do wish my Staffs weapon damage could be a bit more. Its kinda depressing seeing it hit for 150-300 at lvl 80. however the survivability of a Mesmer is massive compared to other classes. Not only can you kite like a ranger, you can confuse, make yourself invulnerable, teleport, go invisible spawn more clones, blink more, reflect projectiles back onto your foes, but for all the lack of damage you can stay alive and fight 7-10 npc’s with a few veterans in there at once. Not many classes can achieve that.
Anyway. End rant – while your post was a good read and highlighted some valid points, stating that the class is broken is incorrect.

Shriketalon.1937:

And further still…

I’m sorry to have to say this, but this seems to me to be basically an eloquently-written class whine post.

Class whine posts pollute most class forums on most subscription MMOs. Fortunately (and happily), this is not a subscription MMO, therefore Anet don’t need to give any weight to class whine posts. I’m sure this must be immensely liberating for them; I’m certain it’s a great relief to those of us who are sick to death of class whine posts from self-assumed “experts” on MMO forums.

It seems to me (correct me if I’m wrong) that you conceive of the Mesmer as a pet class, and you want to make it a better pet class.

The Mesmer is not a pet class. Repeat after me: “the Mesmer is not a pet class”.

Did I mention that the Mesmer is not a pet class?

In a sense, the pets are almost merely cosmetic, just flavour. They have very minimal AI.

They are supposed to be disposable, throwaway aggro management/burst damage, that you pump out, let them do their thing, and shatter.

If this were a slower-paced game, then I might agree with some of what you say. But it’s not, it’s an extremely fast-paced game. Fights are too quick to be faffing about treating illusions like pets (not without beefing up their AI to the level of Ranger pets). Phantasms are meant to do one volley and die, they’re not meant to hang around “doing DPS”. The clue to this is their 5 second attack rate. In this game, 5 seconds is an eternity.

IOW Phantasms pump out a quick burst, shatter is a quick burst, phantasm is a quick burst, shatter is a quick burst … etc.

The “equal value to all illusions so far as shatter is concerned” is in fact excellent game design – it’s a limitation. In the right hands, the Mesmer is already bordering on OP as it is. If that limitation weren’t there, the Mesmer would be OP in anybody’s hands. i.e. if the Phantasms were more like persistent pets, they’d be doing damage way beyond the level of Ranger pets, and some rebalancing would be required elsewhere.

Also, the ability to emphasise one aspect or another of the Mesmer’s bag of tricks via Traits is what’s usually known as “flexibility”.

Another point: it’s way too early to be making these kinds of judgement, what I call “beta orthodoxies”. Beta testers are not hugely representative of the gaming public at large. The game has only just started, so the kind of consensus that goes “shatter is a crap mechanic” is premature. The real data that Anet will go on when it comes to making changes has yet to be gathered, and it will be based on datamining from large numbers of players.

Here we go again.

Basic game theory says this is stupid. If a used car salesman offered you a thousand bucks for a beat up old truck, then offered you that same thousand dollars for a luxury car in good condition, no one in their right mind would take him seriously.

First of all, that isn’t game theory, second, there are many, many situations where a shatter is more valuable than any combination of clones and phantasms, coupled with the fact that you can bring up three phantasms right away if the skills are off cooldown.

[Quote]*Like the obsolete Warrior, it has passive damage (phantasms) and bursts (shatters). Low and behold, we have phantasm builds and shatter builds, and the two loathe each other.[/Quote]

Absolutely and ridiculously false. The best dungeon and PvP builds utilize shatters and phantasms. There are a hanful of select situations (DEs against huge bosses, and some farming runs in dungeons come to mind) where you can just leave three phantasms up, and just choose not to shatter. Not being speeced for pure phantasm damage only results in a fraction of DPS loss.

“players have the ability to throw off that ratio and make one of the contradictory mechanics outside the others”

Now you’re saying that the ability to use a crappy build is a design flaw? There are certainly synergistic builds available. Every class has to choose between potentially valuable traits.

Beyond that, it looks like you think shatters are only for damage. I don’t have to explain why that isn’t true.

I will give you the GS complaints, and the iWarden.

I’m not sure if you’re trying to mask your points in a wall of text but brevity is a requirement of eloquence, and this was not at all concise.

I don’t like calling posts out as “class whining” but beyond a couple of points we’ve discussed about a dozen times that’s essentially what this is.

Take power away from Phantasms and put it into other areas. I think his suggestions are less about making the Mesmer a pet class and more about how the only role Phantasms currently play is that of being pets. Their utility is minimal, where it should be exceptional.

Phantasms should not be a primary source of damage for us. As the poster above said, we’re not a pet class, yet it feels like we’re far too reliant on our illusion-pets to be effective. I think phantasm-summoning skills should be actives – that your character should perform the action as well as the phantasm when you first summon them. I started another thread with this idea, but I feel phantasms are the core issue, not shatters.

Deneroth.2854:

…….But the class is still fun to play. Claiming its outright broken is an overstatement. Sure it needs tweaks here and there but this is achieved by good suggestions not blatant “its broken and will never work” statements.

Perhaps there is a kinder way to phrase it. The Mesmer has a magnificent aesthetic, a fun set of quirks, and the bestkittenutility list in the game (bar a few select oddities). The idea of playing mind games with the opponent is a very good one, but the problem is that they’ve put things in the wrong order. Placing the resource generation on the weapons and then making damage a class mechanic isn’t helping the mesmer branch out, it’s keeping it constrained in a single model.

I appreciate that you find it fun to play, and I definitely don’t want your fun to be ruined polishing the mechanic. But it can certainly be better.

Consider, if you will: would your play be damaged or enhanced if you could choose your shatters? Would there be anything wrong with tying clone creation to the dodge mechanic instead of uneven weapons? Would anything be degraded if phantasms were a utility unlinked to the shatter mechanic, thus allowing you to bring “the damage one”, “the blocking one”, “the crippling one”, and “the debilitating one” anywhere you wanted?

gurugeorge.9857:

It seems to me (correct me if I’m wrong) that you conceive of the Mesmer as a pet class, and you want to make it a better pet class.

You are wrong, therefore I must correct you as requested. My apologies for any miscommunication. Mind games, multidirectional attacks, and metamagical mastery are all the halmarks of the Mesmer, both in GW1 and the present.

Right now, however, we have minion bombing. The current Mesmer creates NPCs, and either leaves them DPSing about, or commands them to rush the target and snuggle it to death. Either way……I know you clearly don’t like pet classes, but how is the current design not somewhat pet-class like?

Ideally, less reliance on NPCs would be good. Putting damage into the hands of the player rather than AI would improve the class and provide flexibility for things like AoE. Giving them more control over their class mechanic would make them far less predictable to their foes, and more adaptable in situations not suited to minion bombing. And finally, evening things out would ensure that the basic system works, rather than trying to cram each case into an awkward framework by creating exceptions to the rules.

Oh, and I will also grant you the point that it’s really painfully obvious who the clones are. The “obfuscation” concept of tricking players, if there was meant to be such a thing, is 100% non-existent except in like, rank 1-3 PvP. That could certainly be fixed.

I’m not noticing it that much because I play knowing that nobody is tricked by it, but it’s certainly broken if the intention was confusion.

weird mispost thingy.

Shriketalon.1937:

Right now, however, we have minion bombing. The current Mesmer creates NPCs, and either leaves them DPSing about, or commands them to rush the target and snuggle it to death.

Not the way I play it. I have F1, F2, F3 and F4, each of which have situational uses and are quite powerful ways of disposing of illusions.

Either way……I know you clearly don’t like pet classes,

Oh I love pet classes in general (CoV Mastermind ftw ), I was just emphasizing that the Mesmer isn’t one.

but how is the current design not somewhat pet-class like?

In the fact that illusions are disposable and meant to be disposed of quite often, for various reasons, with various effects, and in various circumstances. That is, precisely, the shatter mechanic. It’s this constant flashing into-and-out-of existence of the illusions, combined with things like decoy swapping, blink, etc., that give the Mesmer the mercurial quality you (rightly) note as the hallmark of the class as a “magic” class.

In every MMO, there are some classes that require you to press half a dozen keys to do the same job as other classes can do with one. The Mesmer is a busy class to play, for those of us who like to keep busy. Part of that busyness constantly making illusions pop into and out of existence, and shattering illusions is part of that mechanic, sound and integral.

I’m sure things will be tweaked here and there, but I’m not at all convinced that the class needs any sort of major overhaul such as you propose.

A good write-up, and similar to my own thoughts after first trying the mesmer in BWE 2. As a GW1 mesmer player, the GW2 version is more like a death nova MM necro was. There’s no sense of manipulation, punishment style skills are gone (except for confusion, which is incredibly short and affects all actions equally- closer to the old Blackout then Backfire, for example), and resource denial is gone. It’s just not my class anymore.

Shatter is definately broken, and it’s desperate hobbling to stop it from being OP is making it into a mechanical nightmare. Sure it can still work, but in spite of all the skills and traits, there’s really only two core builds: phantasm and shatter.

Here’s some brain farts to, uh, chew on:
1. Separate the shatters. Instead of destroying all 3 illusions every time for a predictable effect, allow the player to shatter different illusion slots at will. Create a different effect depending on what illusion was shattered. A Clone does DD, Melee phantasm does Daze, or something like that.
2. Remove confusion, or at least remove it as a primary mesmer ability. Place it’s job onto the phantasms, as a “living hex” as originally planned. Have the various utility Phantasms create fields that punish spellcasts, or melee attacks, or reflect, or cause targets to take damage when they strike a foe, or cause targets to take damage when they heal an ally, etc. This is what a mesmer has always been about.
2a. While doing that, move most of the damage from phantasms back to the player. Mesmers should not be minion masters. That’s what the Necro is for.
3. Evaluate all clone generating abilities. Clones should be going up, and dying/shattering left and right. We’re supposed to rely on misdirection and confusion (the real kind, not the condition) to control our foe. Clones should go up quick, go down fast, and repeat often. Having so many of the clone skills on 15-45 second cooldowns makes this impossible.
4. Create clone synergy abilities, like the Necro has for it’s minions. When a clone is up, click the skill again for an effect. Swap from the sword MH #3 skill is a good example. We need more of those. If these are done right, clones really will be mind-bending.

So basically… redesign 80% of the class’s abilities. Yeah, not gonna happen. I miss my GW1 Mesmer. May she rest in piece.

Moonpuncher.7250:

What a colossal waste of time spent reading your post. Also, I love the part about how basic game theory “says” this is stupid. Are you quoting a book called “Game Theory”? I love tossing out bold claims with zero evidence to fall back on. Maybe I’ll say modern medicine tells me you’re a moron.

You’re quite a lovely little gem.

Game theory refers to the study of decision making. In this circumstance, it refers to when people decide to shatter or not shatter. You can see this in other threads, where players refer to the problem where 3 phantasms are dealing more damage than shattering and resummoning those same phantasms. In these circumstances, especially when a player has heavily invested traits into the phantasm mechanic, there isn’t any reason to even bring shatter skills along.

That’s the problem with bringing contradictory mechanics, something Anet realized when making the Warrior’s adrenaline mechanic. If you consider me a moron for agreeing with them, I will allow you your opinion.

gurugeorge.9857:

but how is the current design not somewhat pet-class like?

In the fact that illusions are disposable and meant to be disposed of quite often, for various reasons, with various effects, and in various circumstances. That is, precisely, the shatter mechanic. It’s this constant flashing into-and-out-of existence of the illusions, combined with things like decoy swapping, blink, etc., that give the Mesmer the mercurial quality you (rightly) note as the hallmark of the class as a “magic” class.

Yet this is obfuscation. While that may be fitting (it is the Mesmer, after all), it doesn’t answer the question. It’s still summoning NPCs and relying on them to hurt the opponent, either through three different bombing attacks, or through passive damage. However, perhaps it’s more of a semantic debate.

Striking from several different directions through several different means is certainly “mesmery”. But perhaps I can better explain my point that way: please consider the current mechanics in regards to how “mesmery” they truly are.

Is forcing everyone to bring the exact same four shatters instead of chosen/weapon specific shatters allowing more mind tricks, or less? Are clones more deceptive standing stock still waiting to be commanded to explode on the target, or actually moving around with an AI and applying damage/confusion to whomever kills them by default? Do phantasms provide more tactical depth when they’re like the Duelist, spamming damage, or like the Warden, altering the battlefield? If you consider three ways the mesmer can daze or stun a target (Magic Bullet, Mantra of Distraction, and Diversion), which one is fastest and most reliable, and which requires the most delay and can be countered most easily?

If there was a way to polish the current illusion/shatter mechanics in such a way that provided more freedom, more optional builds, and more adaptability…….wouldn’t the result be even more “Mesmery”? After all, a magician doesn’t perform the same trick over and over again, she dazzles the crowd with many different manipulations and illusions, always leaving them guessing.

While I agree on many points (like Shatter imbalance for different clones, or Phantasms being too strong when active and their Shatters too weak), I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill.

Nice, long, well-structured post, but each paragraph reads like the sky is falling and all you do when you log in your Mesmer is continuously keel over dead in Lion’s Arch from the pressure your body exerts onto your feet.

Now, Mesmers are quite functional. We have problems, yes. So do basically all other classes. I do not see by what metric my issues are more pressing than theirs, it seems we can all do the job, but we all have issues left to fix and kinks left to smoothe out.

Only read the 1st section, but I have to say I actually have noticed that myself, but enjoy it, due to the fact that I play mesmer as my main XD. But for real, it needs to be fixed, when I need that little bit of extra damage near the end and I already have my [Phantasmal Berserker] up, then I simply hit the [Mirror Images] key, and bang, easy freakin kill, no work at all!

Some people like to shatter their illusions and that is fine, so it would have been nice if that option would have been completly as utility skills and that the class skills would really something every Mesmer player could find useful.

Also with having the shatter effects as utilities, players with shatter builds could just take the shatter they like most and it would be easy to add different shatter utilities in the future.

Maybe ArenaNet had just no good idea what the Mesmer should have as class abilities and made the system because of that so bad.

Honestly… I just think

Scepter needs a tweak,
GS needs a buff or domination tree scale power better.
strait up boon the Mesmer style shatter,
fix clone look and AI along with illusion HP over all.
More damge or scailing to Mind Wrack.

Everything else is fine. Maybe tweak in the daze shatter.

But that’s just my opinion I’m sure others think each skill I named is fine.

Ultimately the problem is we already own any foe 1v1… How much can they really change us without making us OP, we walk he line between OP and UP, just wish we got more attention and direct statements about Mesmer fom arena net.

Drudenfusz.2971:

Some people like to shatter their illusions and that is fine, so it would have been nice if that option would have been completly as utility skills and that the class skills would really something every Mesmer player could find useful.

I then see the direct problem more in the traits / abilities even suggesting a non-shatter gameplay.
Shatter is our class mechanic. While it should be possible to make it stronger or leave it slightly weaker (just like a Ranger can spec their pet power or not), it should not be possible to achieve a setup which flat out doesn’t want the class mechanic.

In other words:

1. Limit Phantasms to 1 at a time.
2. Rebalance Phantasms so that they are significantly stronger than they are now, but much less trait-reliant. Shorter attack cycle, better damage, better combo-triggers, more utility, better utility.
3. Make Phantasms have the shatter-effect of 2-3 Clones (whatever works best in practice).

This way you have only one Phantasm. It is worthy of it’s spot, it’s powerful. However come it’s CD – at latest – you want to shatter it away, since you cannot re-use the ability without overwriting the old one, anyhow.

I then see the direct problem more in the traits / abilities even suggesting a non-shatter gameplay.
Shatter is our class mechanic. While it should be possible to make it stronger or leave it slightly weaker (just like a Ranger can spec their pet power or not), it should not be possible to achieve a setup which flat out doesn’t want the class mechanic.
In other words:
Limit Phantasms to 1 at a time.
Rebalance Phantasms so that they are significantly stronger than they are now, but much less trait-reliant. Shorter attack cycle, better damage, better combo-triggers, more utility, better utility.
Make Phantasms have the shatter-effect of 2-3 Clones (whatever works best in practice).
This way you have only one Phantasm. It is worthy of it’s spot, it’s powerful. However come it’s CD – at latest – you want to shatter it away, since you cannot re-use the ability without overwriting the old one, anyhow.

How about no. You seem to really hate the phantasm build and I respect that. On the other hand can you just go to hell with trying to get it nerfed into the toilet so that we all have to spec into your beloved shatter build, some of us don’t really like that style of gameplay finding it to be gimiky and boring.

Here’s an idea, rather than constantly arguing for the nerf of the phantasm build why don’t you instead go about suggesting a rework of some aspects of the trait tree so that they properly support our other builds. Shatter builds have almost 0 support in the trait tree. Mantras also have limited support. Condition orientated builds are also supported in weird ways that don’t mesh properly. Finally we appear to have some sort of odd build that is based around “interrupts” while lacking sufficient tools in our weapons and utilities to support it AND said interrupt trait support is random making it highly unlikely that you will get what you want.

To summerize, stop hating on the phantasm build, we get you don’t like it. If you hate it that badly go play a warrior/engineer or accept that your just not going to play it. The problem is not phantasms, the problem is that phantasms are the only properly supported trait build which doesn’t suck.

Malakree.5912:

To summerize, stop hating on the phantasm build, we get you don’t like it. If you hate it that badly go play a warrior/engineer or accept that your just not going to play it. The problem is not phantasms, the problem is that phantasms are the only properly supported trait build which doesn’t suck.

No that’s completely not the problem.

Ok, to maybe explain my “Phantasm build hate” better, consider the following builds for the following classes:

A Ranger specced so that he gains a lot of bonuses when he has no pet active.
A Warrior specced so he gets lots of +damage and +effects when his rage is at full.
A Necromancer specced so he gets bonuses the longer he stays at max-lifeforce without transforming.
An Elementalist specced so his Fire stance heals, provides debuffs and also defence, as long as he never swaps it.

The point is, all these builds – and our 3-Phantasm build – have one thing in common: They disable the class-bar. Only contrary to the above ones, ours is reality, and in fact it’s so strong that it is quickly becoming the norm among Mesmers.

And that doesn’t strike you as odd?
That a build should exist – and be balanced around – which serves to disable the entire upper-left of your hotbar area? Can you really imagine all classes having that supported? As I said above, we’re talking a Ranger who’s most effective damage build works by not having a pet active. Would that not strike you as completely wrong and while maybe powerful, not good game design?

My problem is not with the power of Phantasms.
My problem is with them clogging up the 3 spots. And how bad they work with Shattering, due to taking so much time to be re-summoned.

Hence the proposed solution:

1. Merge the power of 3 Phantasms into one.
   Probably a bit less than three, but the point is that you can keep the exact same damage / power / offence as with 3 Phantasms today, by only having one out.
2. In turn, disallow use of 2+ Phantasms at a time. Given the above change this would be mighty overpowered, anyhow.
3. Finally, tweak the utility of each Phantasm.
   This will now be required since while the above two changes already emulate the concept of having, say, 3 PDuelists out, they cannot yet emulate 2 Duelists + 1 Defender or anything like that.

Why this? Because with such a change the power of Phantasms and a Phantasm build stays (a fully traited Phantasm Mesmer would still have the same % of extra power with his – now single – Phantasm over a non-Phantasm Mesmer just using the baseline ones), yet at the same time, you can freely shatter whenever a Phantasm CD is up.
Shatter, then re-summon. Timed well you hit the inter-attack delay and you didn’t lose any power, but the Shatter-bar is now “unlocked” for a Phantasm-based setup.

In other words, no, I don’t “hate” the 3-Phantasm build. I hate it’s specific implementation right now. If someone wants to fully trait Phantasms be my guest, but this should not come at the price of the class bar.
Or do you see a fully Marksman specced Ranger running around without his pet because that’s so much superior to using one? :P

Shriketalon.1937:

1) Shatter cannot balance its checkbook.

Here’s an arithmetic problem for you. Is seven copper pieces equal to three silver, and are both equal to five gold? […]

No need to be equal when the 7 copper is a free addition to the 3 silver.

Unless, of course, you’re the shatter system. To shatter, a phantasm that deals hundreds of damage per shot is worth exactly as much as a scepter clone that deals single digit damage at level 80, which is in turn equal to a sword clone that inflicts vulnerability with each hit, which is supposedly equal to a staff clone that inflicts condition damage. Every single one of those illusions have different amounts of power and different cooldowns, but shatter exchanges them for the exact same amount of burst damage. All illusions are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Incorrect. Your valuation of Illusions here is based on a poor assumption that you are trading their value over a certain [long] timeframe for the Shatter. You should improve your personal skills/gameplay to alter the timeframe of Illusions that you trade for the Shatter. That, or increase the rate at which your mind processes and perceives the battle such that you can identify the specific points in time where the cost is low to none.

*And finally, like the Necromancer, the Mesmer is handed a class mechanic that only caters toward one overall playstyle. Classes are supposed to be more than that: a banner/rifle warrior is not remotely the same as berserker axe wielder, nor does a flamethrower juggernaut engie play like a turret builder. But every single Mesmer is expected to be a minion bomber, regardless of whether or not creating fragile NPCs and sending them to snuggle a target is viable.

When you get good at playing a Mesmer some time in the future, you will realize that Shatters are effective for many, many builds, whether for the damage or the utility or the other utility you trait into them. It’s all a matter of timing.

Sidenote: a banner/rifle warr is the same as a berserker axe wielder. They just F1 at different times and wait different times for running in. Mesmer actually has rather more variation in builds.

Game theory refers to the study of decision making. In this circumstance, it refers to when people decide to shatter or not shatter. You can see this in other threads, where players refer to the problem where 3 phantasms are dealing more damage than shattering and resummoning those same phantasms. In these circumstances, especially when a player has heavily invested traits into the phantasm mechanic, there isn’t any reason to even bring shatter skills along.

It’s really funny to watch people make incorrect comparisons and then try to justify their logic using “Game Theory” in order to sound legitimate.

Malakree.5912:

To summerize, stop hating on the phantasm build, we get you don’t like it. If you hate it that badly go play a warrior/engineer or accept that your just not going to play it. The problem is not phantasms, the problem is that phantasms are the only properly supported trait build which doesn’t suck.

“Phantasm builds” are lazy, although they are effective. To pretend they are the best is kind of silly.

They are popular because they are easy to play — the player doesn’t need much skill to summon a fire-and-forget pet and then run away.

So, it’s not surprising there are legions of rabid fans that proclaim it’s the only effective way to play.

Mesmers do fine in PvP.
Mesmers are meh in PvE. Many of the points the OP made are even worse in a PvE environment where you can’t shatter or use phantasms for many fights. Confusion spikes are worthless when the mob you confused gets knocked down or is kited and doesn’t get to attack.

Mesmer’s are fun when they can use their tools, but too often the tools don’t work well or the tools fight each other.

After 80 levels, dozens of dungeon runs, and hours of PvP and WvW, I agree 100% with the OP. The Mesmer has confused itself into a state of identity crisis.

Most of the OP’s detractors just boil down to “No you’re wrong, shatters still have a place in a phantasm build.” This is simply a math problem and should be easy to confirm or disprove.

Just wanted to chime in and say this is a REALLY great OP, OP. Thanks!

Malakree.5912:

To summerize, stop hating on the phantasm build, we get you don’t like it. If you hate it that badly go play a warrior/engineer or accept that your just not going to play it. The problem is not phantasms, the problem is that phantasms are the only properly supported trait build which doesn’t suck.

He’s not hating on it, he wants to make it optional just like pets are optional for necromancers and turrets are optional for Engineers.

The point is that the class mechanic should be universal, and should enhance the other mechanics while currently it’s not and it hurts the other mechanics.

Xine.5827:

After 80 levels, dozens of dungeon runs, and hours of PvP and WvW, I agree 100% with the OP. The Mesmer has confused itself into a state of identity crisis.

I think the identity crisis is that at some point, Shatters were the Alpha and Omega of Mesmers. Which is all nice and right, seeing how it’s our class bar, but they were too a degree which was too much.

De-emphasizing led to the semi-pet / semi-spam / semi-problem setup we have.
It’s not so bad really. I did plenty dungeons too, and I’d guesstimate that 90%+ of my Clones reach their targets or absorb hits. And those hits would be fairly lethal otherwise. Phantasms… no clue. Some cause solid damage, like my Swordsman. Others like the Disenchanter have an unhealthy tendency to cuddle up with the enemies, making them die in split-seconds.

Xine.5827:

Mesmers do fine in PvP.
Mesmers are meh in PvE. Many of the points the OP made are even worse in a PvE environment where you can’t shatter or use phantasms for many fights. Confusion spikes are worthless when the mob you confused gets knocked down or is kited and doesn’t get to attack.

Mesmer’s are fun when they can use their tools, but too often the tools don’t work well or the tools fight each other.

After 80 levels, dozens of dungeon runs, and hours of PvP and WvW, I agree 100% with the OP. The Mesmer has confused itself into a state of identity crisis.

Effigy boss in CoF is a pretty good example of this. That burn aura will rip through the shatter and his ranged AoE will keep the number of active phantasms pretty low.

The idea of just having not more than one phantasm, which is stronger then they are now, is something I like. But maybe it should be also excluded from the shatter, of maybe at least from a few shatters (Cry of Frustration and Diversion could be the ones that leave the phantasms intact, and Mind Wrack could let the phantasm count as 2 or 3 clones when it explodes).

Strill.2591:

He’s not hating on it, he wants to make it optional just like pets are optional for necromancers and turrets are optional for Engineers.

The point is that the class mechanic should be universal, and should enhance the other mechanics while currently it’s not and it hurts the other mechanics.

The difference is, he’s specifically saying he wants nerfs to the phantasm build. It’s one thing to ask for buffs to the other builds that is opening up options and allowing people to play the class how they want. As I said though he is specifically saying that the phantasm build should not work, there is a massive difference between that and what your saying he’s suggesting.

First thing I would now say, people do realize that illusions NOT the shatter is our profession mechanic. The shatter is a part in that it is a function of our illusions but it specifically is NOT our class mechanic.

Second, I’ve been pissing about with a few of the other builds in PvE just to see what I can make work. My initial reactions are.

1) Mantras are bullkitten, to make them even come close to working you have to spec into 2 seperate grandmaster skills. This combined with the extreme casttime makes them unusable in basically any build. I’d suggest that the 3xcast should be T1 in the power tree. The 3% damage needs dropping down the tree in dueling to I’d say T1 as well, it’s closest relations are the 3% damage/DR per illusion both of which are T1. I’d then say we need a GM talent in dueling which heavily reduces the cast time (down to maybe around 1 second). This way if you go into a mantra build you GET a mantra build.

2) The domination and illusions tree both need reworks.

-Going for a heavy shatter build requires you to go quite deep into the illusions tree which is actually not great for a power based shatter build (since it focuses around mind wrack). I’d say switching “power” onto the illusions and “condition damage” onto domination would be better for both. Next change illusionary retribution talent so that it says “A shattered illusion deals damage to it’s target” this would cause all shatter abilities to be good for damage, potentially making CoF to be useful. It also means that in a pure shatter build your not sacrificing heavily when forced to use the last 2 skills in that it doesn’t give up a large portion of your damage.

Malakree.5912:

The difference is, he’s specifically saying he wants nerfs to the phantasm build. It’s one thing to ask for buffs to the other builds that is opening up options and allowing people to play the class how they want. As I said though he is specifically saying that the phantasm build should not work, there is a massive difference between that and what your saying he’s suggesting.

Then you didn’t read well enough, sorry.

I said the 3-Phantasm build should not work. But notice the “3”.
I don’t mind a build centred entirely around Phantasm power at all.
I don’t mind the specific amount of power of a Phantasm-build, either.

What I mind is that it works by keeping 3 Phantasms alive, because this essentially disables the class bar (not the class mechanic, the class bar).

Hence – read the suggestion – I propose merging the 3-Phantasm setup into a single-Phantasm setup in which both the power of the Phantasm, it’s durability and it’s difference in power between untraited and fully traited is completely retained.

In other words, I propose a pretty substantial buff to a Phantasm-focused build, because on top of keeping all the current power, 2 Illusion-slots are freed up to use Clones. Why is this such a buff? Because it means when your Phantasm-summoning skill comes off CD, you can hit a Shatter-skill, then immediately re-summon. Done in the inter-attack delay this actually causes the Phantasm to attack faster not slower – since the new one fires right away – while allowing shatter use. If at a reduced cadence.

So, where is the problem exactly?
I think you misunderstood what I’m “hating on”. I couldn’t care any less whether your Phantasm-focused build is stronger, weaker or more green than a Mantra build or a Clone Factory or a Condition Spammer. Whatever.
I mind that one of our specs disables the class-bar, when it is in fact quite easy to change the class mechanics to the point where this cannot happen, without impacting the power or focus of the spec most focused around Phantasms. In fact, actually buffing it quite a bit (I covered the loss of mixed-Phantasm setups before, it is the one point which would require more dev time than a single hour, but it also isn’t problematic – see the longer post before).

I’m not quite sure what the big deal is. My shatters work fantastic, especially when timed right. They just take a lot more precision timing than other profession’s special abilities. I say ANet should do this:

Keep Mind Wrack the same.

Buff Cry of Frustration’s confusion duration to 8 seconds.

Buff Diversion’s daze count per illusion to 2 seconds instead of 1.

Keep Distortion the same.

Everything works just fine as it is, and I’m a GS/Sword & Sword Mesmer with little to no problems in both PvE and PvP regardless of the situation.

Well Shatter builds are viable.
Just dont expect to shatter a lot if you have a Phantasm build. There are lot of build you can run as a Mesmer and sure Mind Wrack isn’t a core ability for all.

Also, on your point 1. You approach it with a really simplistic mindset.
For instance after your Phantasm completes its attack there is a few seconds downtime with your phantasm just sitting there. You can take advantage of this time, shatter and then re-summon your phantasm to attack again.

Sure Mesmers are not as easy as a warrior to play, and sure there are many things that can improve our mechanics (Id like to see a better shatter delivery method than having me Clone run at the target) but the idea of shattering and the decisions you have to make are a good thing.

Elesthor.1450:

Well Shatter builds are viable.
Just dont expect to shatter a lot if you have a Phantasm build. There are lot of build you can run as a Mesmer and sure Mind Wrack isn’t a core ability for all.

Also, on your point 1. You approach it with a really simplistic mindset.
For instance after your Phantasm completes its attack there is a few seconds downtime with your phantasm just sitting there. You can take advantage of this time, shatter and then re-summon your phantasm to attack again.

Sure Mesmers are not as easy as a warrior to play, and sure there are many things that can improve our mechanics (Id like to see a better shatter delivery method than having me Clone run at the target) but the idea of shattering and the decisions you have to make are a good thing.

Shatters are the class mechanic. They’re intended to be useful to every specialization. “Shatter Build” and “Phantasm Build” should be defined by the effectiveness of each ability, not whether you make use of them at all. ArenaNet specifically identified other class mechanics which were mutually exclusive with other abilities and changed them so that the core ability was always useful and the other abilities were optional. That’s what the OP is asking for here.

I think a lot of people are missing the point; it’s not about whether or not shatter builds and phantasm builds are viable. They’re both viable. The problem is that the shatter mechanic only works if you dive wholeheartedly into it, otherwise it’s deadweight or even a self-defeating system. Shatters are an all or nothing mechanic. Other class mechanics will, at the very least, compliment a build that doesn’t specifically devote itself to the class mechanic but this is evidently not the case with Mesmer. The shatter mechanic will actively handicap many builds, namely the phantasm builds.

Exactly my problem with it, Hildebert. And as I said above, I think this could be resolved by beefing up the Phantasms, but limiting them to 1 at a time. This would automatically imply that once your Phantasm’s summoning skill is recycling, you might as well shatter away, it’s not like you suffer any functional loss.

Great post Shrike! This effectively summarizes all that I feel wrong about playing the Mesmer class. I don’t know what mind-numbing drug some of these people who have replied are on. The Mesmer is a fun class to play – true. I have a ranger that’s a no-brainer to play and but I persist and persist with the Mesmer class because of the potential I see.

But the class also needs a lot of work and re-work. To pretend that shatters are not flawed is like imagining the empty glass as full and drinking the air from it. The mechanics of this class is flawed, not just in implementation, but in its inherent design.

All I see here as counterarguments are of the “lrn2play better” types. You people don’t get it. You don’t give someone a brand new car with flawed brakes and then when they crash into something tell to “lrn2drive”.

@pyronix:
Yes, but there is a big difference between the problems the Mesmer has, and “lot of work and re-work”. Nearly everything we have works. Even our class mechanic. The balance between <class_mechanic> <→ <traits> <→ <class_bar> is off in certain combinations, and that’s it.
At least as far as mechanics go, the rest is bugs, but it seems everyone has a lot of those.

In other words, the issue is people making it sound like the game is having them close to throwing their machine out of the window, which is clearly not the case if you see the absurd amounts of /age, gear or achievements people ingame already have.

I agree phantasm builds and shatters being incompatible feels just wrong, and maybe Carighan’s one phantasm only (with the power of three) could be a solution. Might help solve the large ramp up time problems we have too, especially in farming/leveling.

That said, I do like phantasm builds not requiring shatters because I feel we have far too little ways of dropping aggro (from mobs or players) once we do shatter – decoy seems the only real one. However, that is for another thread.

I said the 3-Phantasm build should not work. But notice the “3”.
I don’t mind a build centred entirely around Phantasm power at all.
I don’t mind the specific amount of power of a Phantasm-build, either.
What I mind is that it works by keeping 3 Phantasms alive, because this essentially disables the class bar (not the class mechanic, the class bar).

Where as I proposed a different change which would still function with the 3 phantasm build without being godmode broken like the change your proposing. It would also buff the shatter build by allowing them to use phantasms more easily and by proxy reducing the sheer quantity of clone generation the build requires thus freeing up their utilities for stuff other than “spawns a clone”.

Hence – read the suggestion – I propose merging the 3-Phantasm setup into a single-Phantasm setup in which both the power of the Phantasm, it’s durability and it’s difference in power between untraited and fully traited is completely retained.

This would be flat out broken, if one duelist were able to put out the sustained damage of 3 with none of the pain required to get all 3 up or to maintain them it would cause us to be the most broken class in the game.

EDIT:

I mind that one of our specs disables the class-bar, when it is in fact quite easy to change the class mechanics to the point where this cannot happen, without impacting the power or focus of the spec most focused around Phantasms. In fact, actually buffing it quite a bit (I covered the loss of mixed-Phantasm setups before, it is the one point which would require more dev time than a single hour, but it also isn’t problematic – see the longer post before).

I’ll copy paste the post I made which deals with this problem far easier and more elegantly.

I feel like shatter should break all clones but not destroy the phantasms while giving you an effect based on the total number of illusions. This would make them way more useful for ALL builds of mesmer while also meaning the phantasm reload in the illusions tree isn’t so heavily misplaced it’s unreal. It would also make it a lot more viable to quick fire off the various shatter’s meaning that the fact mind wrack is so much better than cry of frustration doesn’t matter.
Then make all shatter’s cast as an instant projectile (as opposed to having your illusions run at them) and based on your target.

Not necessarily – the phantasm would just be more important to kill in pvp, which can be done pretty ridiculously fast and is one of the problems phantasm players have in pvp.

In pve it would give us the burst we are lacking while helping to keep max sustained dps on harder fights (champions, dungeons, etc) where aoe is at play.

The other issue comes with the fact that we have 2 different avalible phantasms, one from each weapon. Being able to have only one out would really ruin the dynamics there.

The problem is that the shatter mechanic only works if you dive wholeheartedly into it, otherwise it’s deadweight or even a self-defeating system.

This is incorrect. The general usage of the Shatters change depending on your build. In the most anti-Shatter build, e.g. a phantasm army build, you still want to use Shatters for Diversion and Distortion to stop/avoid key attacks or to get off a stomp for example. You’ll just avoid using Mind Wrack or Cry of Frustration unless the target is dying.

Like seriously, who gives a kitten if your phantasms are alive when you need to evade the knockback to finish a stomp? Priorities people.

I agree with all of what you’ve said Shriketalon.

I’ve said all along how limiting shattering is etc. and i’m glad someone else is saying it too. Most people will just say ‘you don’t know how to play a mesmer, it has a high skill cap’ etc when really the class is a mess.

Mesmer feed too heavily into their mechanic, it limits them a huge amount.

The longer you resist that the mesmer class is a mess, the longer it’ll take for Anet to do something about it. You shouldn’t have to work around an all over the place mechanic and skill set to be good.

A lot of things don’t synergise with this class and Phantasms+Shattering is the most obvious example.

I find phantasms and shatters to work just fine together if you can time your abilities.

Perhaps it’s your build and/or playstyle that doesn’t synergize.

EasymodeX.4062:

I find phantasms and shatters to work just fine together if you can time your abilities.

Perhaps it’s your build and/or playstyle that doesn’t synergize.

Destroying something that is supposed to be a source of consistent damage doesn’t synergise at all, no matter how you look at it.

You may shatter away phantasms at specific moments and find it to be useful, but the concepts still clash.

Are you sure phantasms are supposed to be a source of consistent damage?

You can re-summon them on short cooldowns (most of them), and they die easily, or can be destroyed for additional effects.

Perhaps you think they are pets like rangers?