Guild Wars 2

Has anyone noticed these skills do little to nothing? I am speaking mainly from a PVE point of view. I will hit Mind Wrack with 3 illusions up, and virtually nothing happens. The range states 1200 which compared to other skills seems to be fairly wide. Why doesn’t it do anything? PVP I can understand. People can move out of the range of illusions quicker and use certain strategies. Anyone else experiencing problems with this?

What else are you expecting it to do besides damage…

I frequently finish mobs with mind wrack, and it works well. I don’t know what the problem is…

Mind Wrack does fine for me. Like MrClockmakerSir, I finish every fight I can with Mind Wrack just to get rid of my clones so they’re not wasted. And boy it hits hard.

i built an entire…build…around shattering. mainly confusion, so shatter #2 cry of frustration. but i have +20% mind wrack damage. i have the trait where all shatters apply confusion (which makes CoF do double stacks) and if i need to interrupt or dodge an attack i have shatter #3 and #4.

and no, these aren’t just numbers. i can handle 5-6 mobs of comparable level at once. churning out clones, popping them in the mobs’ face, cloaking, burning, confusing…and i do it all in light armor.

shatter doesn’t just bang, it works.

So it would sound like I am definitely doing something wrong. A few follow up questions then. At what percentage of a mobs health are you guys popping Mind Wrack (ie…how close to dead are they before you “finish them off”)? How many illusions are active when you do this?

For most normal mobs I’d proc Mind Wrack or CoF when they reach half HP. Mind you, I use a condition build so at this point the mob usually has a hefty amount of Bleeding on it, plus 3 – 6 stacks of Confusion from the Shatter. After the Shatter they usually die without me having to do much.

Heck I WISH they were MORE visable.
It’s hard to tell between a shatter and a normal death. Only difference I could really see was that they animate before exploding.

I was hoping they’d actually explode, or shatter, or SOMETHING and not just use /roar and then die.

I’d rather they shatter into butterflies and turn into a projectile that flies toward the enemy. The power walk thing is… meh.

Sardoni.8361:

I’d rather they shatter into butterflies and turn into a projectile that flies toward the enemy. The power walk thing is… meh.

That’s where proper positioning comes into play as well as proper skill loadout. If your clones are too far away and you know they won’t make it to the target before being destroyed, shatter using distort to avoid incoming damage and close the distance, summon new clones closer to the target and shatter those.

There are also a few skills that summon the clones/phantasm at the target location rather than near you. Make use of those and shatter immediately.

Shattering Illusions is one of the things that actually does work properly.
Can’t say the same about a lot of other Mesmer stuff.

Xfraze.1704:

Sardoni.8361:

I’d rather they shatter into butterflies and turn into a projectile that flies toward the enemy. The power walk thing is… meh.

That’s where proper positioning comes into play as well as proper skill loadout. If your clones are too far away and you know they won’t make it to the target before being destroyed, shatter using distort to avoid incoming damage and close the distance, summon new clones closer to the target and shatter those.

There are also a few skills that summon the clones/phantasm at the target location rather than near you. Make use of those and shatter immediately.

I’m coping with it currently, but trying to provide solutions. =P

Please name me another class mechanic that is solved by blowing a cool down and moving closer just to use another skill effectively… every time. I get how we can use it now. I just think we can design it better.

There’s a barrier to entry for smart play for the Mesmer. The current shatter mechanics are simple. Push button… watch pink/purple butterfly explosion, but I wish it wasn’t of ACME quality design.

I’m thinking of how we can do things more intelligently. I love popping two clones and power walking to my target then flipping to something stealthy popping on them. It’s fun. But… it’s not effective for WvW defense… it’s not effective for shattering with terrain (and some dungeons/WvW/PVE content have terrain barriers you have to work within and not around and you can’t simply move closer).

I’m suggesting they shatter into projectiles knowing full well I’m going to lose my “power walk gank ability”. But I’m also keen enough to know that eventually… our gimmicks won’t work and we’ll be in desperate need for a tweak.

Drizzzle.5847:

So it would sound like I am definitely doing something wrong. A few follow up questions then. At what percentage of a mobs health are you guys popping Mind Wrack (ie…how close to dead are they before you “finish them off”)? How many illusions are active when you do this?

I have a few situations where I opt for Mind Wrack. In order of priority:
1. Are Diversion or Distortion needed? Then obviously I don’t use MF.
2. Do I have 3 Clones up, and my Phantasm CD(s) are coming up? Then I want to shatter, so I’ll use CoF or MF, depending on which is available.
3. Is the mob at ~10% HP? Then MF it is, against players I opt to MF > CoF at ~25% HP, it causes people to panic if they lose another 10%-20% at that point, and if they make a mistake out of panic…

I guess I can’t really sympathize with your suggestions because I don’t see a problem with the way shatter currently operates, or rather is designed to operate. That doesn’t make your points any less valid though.

I don’t consider the way the mesmer plays to be ACME quality at all and I think the way you’re trying to play the class may be the problem, more than the way it was designed.

We have multiple ways to disable or slow down foes who are trying to run away so the shatters can take effect, it’s just a matter of using them. At the very beginning, ANet said that the mesmer will be a class that anyone can play but will be difficult to master.

You can say that statement is nothing more than a crutch to brush away bad design decisions and I’m by no way trying to imply the class is perfect, there are some skills that need tweaking and bugs that need fixing, but I think too many people are trying to play the mesmer in a way it was not designed for or want it to do things like other classes do without really understanding what the mesmer is all about.

Also, I’m not sure if you know this, but in the illusions tree, there is a grandmaster trait that lets you have the shatter effect center on the player as well as the illusions. That might solve some of your problems and possibly create new opportunities/scenarios for you excel or do some of the things you seem to be wanting to do.

In general I would agree that any Clone / Phantasm currently not in explosion-distance should fly there as a ranged bolt, but this causes a few extra issues:

a) How do you handle the AE-effect of MF and CoF? If the bolt impacts, does it centre on the target? In that case it would be functionally very different from the current handling where the illusions explode as soon as their AE’s edge touches the target spot.
b) This would ruin staggered dazing with Diversion. How is this handled? Specifically, does Diversion need to be buffed to 1s + 0,5s per extra clone to compensate?

Xfraze.1704:

snip

I will say whole-heartedly that we Mesmers are a trollsy, evasive, “get-a-way in a flash when we need to” class… I love it and I can see some problems. Thanks for the suggestion and I knew about the illusion trait, I opted for 30 points in chaos for the additional stealth time/added toughness (WvW centric spec).

What I’m seeing are mesmers reluctant to shatter because phantasms are so good. Now… personally… I like phantasm damage where it is. It’s a tad unreliable (having to summon them all up) but even if you don’t spec “phatasm build” you still get some benefits from it.

Now there’s enough traits centered around not shattering your clones/phantasms that make me ask the question… why? If shattering is a “core class mechanic” why are there traits they encourage you not to? It doesn’t hurt to start thinking, I always try to encourage it personally! =)

If it’s to give players some diversity. All for it! Nice! Super! But as it stands… your clone generator is one skill on your weapon combination of choice that has five total skills. Your phantasm generator is a another out of those 5. If we are intentionally not shattering for whatever reason… that’s 6 skills we are intentionally avoiding to use (F1-F4, and your clone/phantasm generator to avoid over rides if applicable). We could also say some people have clone/phantasm generators for utilities but we’ll just let that go for now.

To me, intentionally not using the shatter mechanic and specing to not use it is odd. It’s not “wrong” or “right,” but why are people doing that? I’m not going to immediately jump to a nerf button… I’m going to ask why. I’m going to try to see from their side of the fence.

Phantasm damage output > shatter output when considering consistency… only if phantasms are not a danger zone.

Heck, I make it a point to get up three phantasms in explore dungeons on bosses that are “tank and spank.” Takes me longer to get up three phantasms once I shatter them. I’d rather have those phantasms unloading their auto attack rotation. But then I just have to baby sit the phantasms. No real excitement or skillful play involved here. I’m not making sure to hit clutch dazes or interrupts or anything that the Domination tree seems to insist we have some use for at some point. I’m just dodging and managing clones. Potentially rezzing people who are downed… popping some condition cleansers for the group… maybe a time warp… who knows.

Is that lazy? Is it amazing design? Is baby sitting my phantasm damage output really the way I’d like to play my mesmer? Not… really, but I understand. The inverse is that I don’t think I should be a machine gun poppoing out clones and mesmers to die glorious deaths in tribute to the purple butterfly gods that spawn them… ok maybe I’m getting a tad carried away here! =P

But like mentioned before and I will agree; I’ve found my own niche in the mesmer world. I like where I’ve settled with how I play my mesmer. I look around and I actually don’t want to discourage other people from playing mesmers. I want other people to enjoy the class I love.

I’m just looking at what we currently do and asking the question: Can we do this better? Can we do this smarter? Can we do this well at all?

They could add a 30 point major trait in Illusion that allows your clones when shattered to turn into a projectile and fly at their target, but that drastically changes the core mechanic of the class and prevents a barrier to entry to new players. It also forces a level cap on certain play style.

I just know that I shake an angry baby fist when someone ducks into the safety of their tower before my clones reach them and the clones stand there at the gate for a second before shattering and hitting nothing. I also know that my clone generator and phantasms are useless when trying to to attack a defender on a wall of a keep when I’m on the ground waiting for the door to go down. I prowl around trying to pull stragglers off the wall with my focus… then get angry that I had to equip an otherwise useless focus and get in combat with it just to fight someone on the playing field my class can fight them on.

I don’t have a perfect solution to the gaps I see, but I want to throw out solutions instead of complaints. Maybe something will stick… or spur someone else into a better idea. I’ll never settle for a status quo. =)

Also, the devs have taken our community feedback and incorporated it into the game. So we’re helping design and shape this game as much as they are. We can’t ever rest on the laurels that things weren’t designed to be this way. And I’m not trying to make this game out to be any other game I’ve ever played. I’m trying to make it a better stand alone product =)

Carighan.6758:

In general I would agree that any Clone / Phantasm currently not in explosion-distance should fly there as a ranged bolt, but this causes a few extra issues:

a) How do you handle the AE-effect of MF and CoF? If the bolt impacts, does it centre on the target? In that case it would be functionally very different from the current handling where the illusions explode as soon as their AE’s edge touches the target spot.
b) This would ruin staggered dazing with Diversion. How is this handled? Specifically, does Diversion need to be buffed to 1s + 0,5s per extra clone to compensate?

a.) Engineer pistol auto attack has a similar effect where it explodes on the target and shatters from there in a sphere around the target. Not sure the current size of mind wracks aoe (we don’t see the circle as it stands either). The behavior would mirror a homing projectile. If the target moves when you’re auto attacking with the bow/scepter/staff/rifle etc… there’s a maximum range and you can dodge/reflect projectile before impact.

b.) The projectiles would (in theory) shatter and leave from their current clone/phantasm location. So as long as they all eventually made it to their target (i.e. weren’t reflected or dodged) it would have the same delay effect. Actually it would the daze would arguably happen more quickly because the projectile would constantly follow the target not path A → B then realize that B moved to C and readjust pathing according.

Sardoni, I never really thought about it the way you put it in your longer post and I can honestly say I’m starting to see what your point is. While I’m not entirely convinced that all of your suggestions should be implemented, I can understand how the shatter mechanic could use some work to make it seem more appealing than just having phantasms out. It’s possible that I’m not playing effectively enough to make better use of them, but my current play style doesn’t make shattering seem worthless and I seem to be doing okay.

That being said, the fact that a main class mechanic seems worthless to a lot of people in a specific build set up is a shame and should be addressed, one way or another.

Also, in another thread, someone said something to the effect of “What’s wrong with not shatterings?” and I tend to agree on that sentiment as well. Unless you’re running a build where it’s possible to shatter 3 illusions by the time the cooldown is up, is it really so bad that you aren’t spamming the skill? I tend to shatter when the target is almost dead or if I know they are about to use an ability that can hit them for a lot confusion wise. I also distort if I’m in an “Oh kitten!” situation or stagger daze em if I want to lock em down.

While I can now agree with your opinion that shatter might need some work to make it more viable for people who want to go that route exclusively, I don’t think setting it up so that it can be used more frequently by people who aren’t in a spec that relies on it exclusively is the answer.

I am a visual person and my eyes are almost always focused on my toon. I am not sure if others have this problem, but it can take a bit of discipline to watch my boons and the debuffs on my target while still trying not to blink into another mob. I quickly learned that Phase Retreat can get me into trouble when I am already fighting 3 mobs! That being said, I also agree with Sardoni to a degree. Perhaps the game mechanic could use a little bit of tweaking. More importantly for me, I would like to see more visual queues. Perhaps an AOE circle around illusions once MR is cast? This wouldn’t help instantly. But, it would help me learn how to guage how better to use MR and other shatter skills more effectively. Also, I am finding that I badly miss a distance-to-target meter on my HUD.

If you do not trait for shatters, then shatters won’t do a huge amount for you beyond the moderate utility.

If you trait for shatters, they can be very effective as a significant tool.