Guild Wars 2

Shattering.
Among the several reasons I love but despise the Mesmer class. All other professions have abilities that compliment their play style while ours.. well ours just blows our unique function away…Yeah… Why do I have to pick between having phantasms + clones up OR shattering? Does a warrior have to pick between using a burst skill or weapon skills? Uh.. no that’d be, well, it’d be stupid. But Mesmer? Nah its fine, summon something that often has a useful purpose (phantasms) then just go blow it up making the skill you decided to bring completely useless to gain a moments desired effect. This mechanic forces you to pick between using your weapon/utility skills (mainly phantasms) and using your specific profession skills and it is frankly a completely poor design, however cool of a concept it sounds like.
What I would personally like to see happen to the Mesmer class:

Shatters – Shatters up to 3 of your clones.
Clones – Can have an infinite amount.
Phantasms – limited to 3. Do not count for shatters.
Traits:
Minor traits -
Wastrel’s Punishment: Shatters can trigger on up to 4 clones.
Shattered Strength: Shattering clones grants you and your phantasms might.
Chaotic Transference: If you lose more than 20% of health from a single attack the rest of that damage is transferred to your nearest clone.
Major Traits-
Blinding Befuddlement: Causing confusion causes blind.
Bountiful Interruption: Summon a clone whenever you interrupt a foe.
Furious Interruption: Gain 4 seconds of fury for you and your phantasms when you interrupt a foe.
Masterful Reflection: Also affects distortion applied by other skills.
Skills:
Diversion: Shatter a single clone and instantly daze(0.5s) target foe. If target is interrupted the interrupted skill takes an addition 10s to recharge. Cooldown: 10s.
Cry of Frustration: Causes twice as much Confusion.
Phantasmal Warden: Runs to you to use blocking skill.
Vortex: Continuously damages foes within range while active.
Mirror: 2s of reflecting and a larger increased heal. Transfers 2 conditions to nearest clone.
Ether Feast: Heal yourself. Heal for more health per clone and phantasm. Per Phantasm: YYY health. Per Clone: XXX health.
Signet of Inspiration: Active effect- Gain all boons for a short time. Breaks Stun.

Now the class only benefits from summoning illusions while still shattering them, punishes foes for ignoring illusions, greatly rewards skilled players, and finally removes the truly discouraging function of limiting the effectiveness of your chosen skills just to use a profession ability.
This is the direction I would like to see the Mesmer go in.

Read the tooltip for the shatter skills again. To use them effectively (efficiently?) you probably want to, whenever possible, shatter the fewest things possible. And as for keeping phantasms up? Well, you can actually go two ways. You can shatter ‘em like anything else and time it so you only do so when you can cast them again or you can pile them on and, this is the KEY thing here, shatter them only when it looks like you can either put them up again or they’re getting low on health and will die anyway. Either way, you -are- using your shatters…the only difference is whether or not you consider shattering a priority or a reactive, last ditch thing.

Both styles of play can be traited. Which, I’ll admit, is problematic and probably the mesmer’s biggest weakness: each different style of play really requires you to bite the bullet and -pay- to redo your trait lines. Probably true of all classes though and just a complaint in general since I really don’t like having to -pay- to mess with traits (not fun…ever).

As for all of your individual suggestions? Most would break balance horribly and some can be got from traits (once they work and aren’t bugged).

I think you should have posted it in suggestions, even if it won’t be read by many people (It’s being spammed rapidly).

I’d love some changes, especially concerning shatters, not necessarily what you suggested but they aren’t helping our playstyle much.

Most changes you mentioned are way too OP. Unlimited clones not only will cause absolute chaos, but staff clones would obliterate everything near them.

It takes what? About 1s to kill a clone? Clone skills recharge how long? The people complaining about clones/phantasms just ignore them because they don’t understand how the Mesmer works or functions with them. Once people understand that if you take a second or two to target a Mesmer’s clones/phantasms (especially with bounce skills) said Mesmer isn’t going to pose much of that threat they are seemingly posing now.
Same thing with all professions: Ignore the special mechanic and get a kitten shoved up your butt.

and fyi that “kitten” above was my own censor, not the forums.

I agree completely that shattering is counter-intuitive and makes the profession quite frustrating to play if you actually like making illusions.

I’m not sure I agree with your solution though – it seems to feed into the other problem that I personally find Mesmer struggles with, and that is getting out of the ‘minion’ headspace. I don’t think phantasms need to be protected from shatter, nor more illusions be created (which I suspect may have graphics consequences if nearby players have to render scenes with potentially huge numbers of intricate character models).

The key issue with shatter (for me) is that it is a mechanic that trades everything that defines the class for a mundane temporary result (possibly with the exception of distortion which I understand is not mundane in PvP). The problem with any exchange mechanic is that the benefit needs to be clearly above and beyond the cost, or provide a completely perpendicular benefit compared to the cost, in order for it to be fun – and that’s well before getting into calculations about whether it is useful.

From my understanding, with the exception of Guardian, no other profession has a core mechanic in which the player takes a penalty (losing all illusions) in exchange for a small bonus (a damage attack or a PvP-centric defensive interrupt/evade).

I think Guardian virtues need to be considered quite differently to Mesmer shatters because the exchange is for completely different benefits – and it actually feeds into the class concept rather than against it. Passive virtues are minor self benefits that the player has little control over, activated virtues are strong group-wide support buffs.

Even then the Guardian doesn’t have to:

• build up their passive virtues through combat tactics in order to gain the full effect of both passive/active buffs;
• deal with opponents/situations that can deprive them of their virtues;
• take an ‘all or nothing’ approach to activating a virtue, so that you must choose between which virtue you can afford to activate;
• deal with traits or effects that specifically discourage the player from activating their virtues (and therefore not using their profession mechanic at all).

I think the other issue is that most of our illusions function effectively as minions, much more than targetted hexes or as an expendable means of denying the enemy the ability to hit the real Mesmer (though they do offer some of this utility as well). Staff clones and all but two or three phantasms are summoned, deal somewhere on the order of 25-40% of the damage of the real Mesmer over time, and must be killed like other pets in order to be neutralised. Sure, they don’t take many hits at all to be killed, but that is mostly balanced by the speed at which the Mesmer can summon new ones.

Although I don’t really care or know much about PvP myself, I wonder if this is why Mesmers are currently seen as so powerful in that area. Poorly balanced minion masters are hugely powerful archetypes in many games, because the ability to summon an army of damage-dealing pets that can overwhelm a target who has to try and counter each minion individually, while the minion master can concentrate on their active offense, is very effective against all but the most skilled and knowledgeable of players.

I’m not sure I have the right solution. I’ve gone through a couple of revisions since starting to experiment with the Mesmer both in terms of what I’d like to see, and what is probably best for the profession. Unfortunately, it’s very unlikely that those two things are one and the same.

I have no idea if these are the best ideas out there, but right now my personal suggestions would be:

• Get rid of damage from phantasms – Phantasms deal no damage, but when placed on a target either increase the ability of the Mesmer to deal damage against them or cause denial/reactive punishment for certain target behaviour, or both;
• Get rid of damage from clones – Clones deal no damage, bleeding or other conditions, but are tweaked to more deliberately serve their function as defensive tools of deception that are intended to absorb attacks;
• Make illusions temporary – Both types of illusions should disappear on their own like any other type of condition;
• Make illusions different to minions – Both types of illusions should be differentiated from ‘real’ creatures somehow so that they can’t be instantly blown away by stray fire in combat, but still attacked and destroyed through deliberate effort;
• Make shatter enhance/exploit Mesmer illusions – Either shatters changed so that they don’t in fact destroy all of your own illusions, or alternatively the effects of shatter changed so that the result is something even more ‘Mesmery’ or illusion-centric.

Sorry for the length of the reply.

Roven Leafsong.8917:

Sorry for the length of the reply.

This is one thing no one should ever apologize for on forums. Thank you for your contribution^.^

My suggestion mostly focuses on mind wrack as a damage source, while keeping the others as is or with minor changes.

So, what I would like to have done with mind wrack?
First off, make it only shatter a single illusion each time. This way, we can keep a closer control on the amount of illusions we have and remove the “all or nothing”-feeling from shattering.
Secondly, to continue with the sub-theme of greater control and to make it more useful for phantasm-based builds, make mind wrack prioritize blowing up clones.
And lastly, remove the cooldown and replace it with a five second debuff (based loosely on the original cooldown vs three shatters) that reduces the damage of consecutive mind wracks by a percentage, probably around 15-20% to leave it at around the same average damage at three shatters. If necessary, make the mesmer unable to use further mind wracks as long as he has three stacks.

Then again, as this suggestion was written at about 5:45 a.m. by a level 45 mesmer, I’ve probably missed a few things here and there. At the moment, this feels like what I would like to see changed in regards to shattering and even if it turns out I’ve missed something important, I hope this could be taken at least as some food for thought.

I like the shattering component, and I don’t see it to be counter intuitive at all. Mesmer’s rely on confusing and deception, they can use clones to distract their enemies, and phantasms to give their foes extra damage dealing targets to deal with. However, deception and a little extra sustained damage don’t always cut it, so shatters allow the mesmer to adapt to the situation at hand. We get two shatters that add some burst damage, one that’s like an emergency interrupt, and one that’s an OS button.

Personally, I find myself making some clones early on in a fight, shattering them, them summoning both my weapons phantasms and keeping them around until I either need the effects of a shatter, or they are going to die/I’ll resummon them.

Exterion.3986:

My suggestion mostly focuses on mind wrack as a damage source, while keeping the others as is or with minor changes.

So, what I would like to have done with mind wrack?
First off, make it only shatter a single illusion each time. This way, we can keep a closer control on the amount of illusions we have and remove the “all or nothing”-feeling from shattering.

I think this is a really good suggestion, and would seem one of the best ‘small’ changes that might offer some improvements to shatter.

I do really hope the poor team tasked with overseeing combat mechanics has a deeper look at illusion mechanics as a whole whenever they next have the opportunity (if ever). I don’t even know what they would be called – is there a single ‘game design’ team that gets to make all of these terribly interesting mechanic decisions, in exchange for all of the terribly depressing and endless complaints for their work and creativity?

I’m definitely feeling a little empathy for whoever is in that unenviable position at the moment, having just browsed some of the other profession forums and realised that every single profession is being loudly trumpeted as broken, overpowered, underpowered, boring, confusing and unfinished amid a torrent of abuse and disatisfaction… yikes.

Thankfully Mesmer is very cool overall, looks wonderfully brilliant in motion and has fantastically interesting skills for the most part. A few teething problems can only be expected for such innovative new ideas as ‘living hexes’ and automated player-duplicate illusions.

ours just blows our unique function away…

Phantasms are not the Mesmer’s “unique function”. Shatters are.

Phantasms are overblown Clones.

Illusions is the Mesmer’s unique function. Shatters are just a way to interact with them.
Is Steal thief’s only unique function? Are we ignore initiative now too : D?
Please think before you add/attempt to add to this post. Thank you.

As for everyone else adding new ideas and contributing, Thank you, keep it up! ^.^

Roven Leafsong.8917:

Sorry for the length of the reply.

Totally agree about shatters, maybe not in how you fix them but thats down to each person but Shattering in my opinion is too beneficial for those that play that way, i dont and think having a class mechanic that is more beneficial if you play that way is stupid

do the class mechanics of other classes work better/worse based on how you want to play your character? sure you can use traits to make them better in some way but if you like to play in a way to KEEP clones/Phantoms up then Shattering is nearly always useless, maybe when the target is nearly dead but even then why bother if they are nearly dead?

As for :

Get rid of damage from phantasms – Phantasms deal no damage, but when placed on a target either increase the ability of the Mesmer to deal damage against them or cause denial/reactive punishment for certain target behaviour, or both;

Get rid of damage from clones – Clones deal no damage, bleeding or other conditions, but are tweaked to more deliberately serve their function as defensive tools of deception that are intended to absorb attacks;
Make illusions temporary – Both types of illusions should disappear on their own like any other type of condition;

Make illusions different to minions – Both types of illusions should be differentiated from ‘real’ creatures somehow so that they can’t be instantly blown away by stray fire in combat, but still attacked and destroyed through deliberate effort;

Make shatter enhance/exploit Mesmer illusions – Either shatters changed so that they don’t in fact destroy all of your own illusions, or alternatively the effects of shatter changed so that the result is something even more ‘Mesmery’ or illusion-centric.

Personally i think that Phantoms need to do 0 Damage (as you say) but instead are there to give Conditions, remove boons as well as cure conditions and give boons to allies, this would be Phantom specific so iDualist could give stacks of Bleeding to enemies while removing any stacks of bleeding from allies, similar would be for other Phantoms like Phantom Mage curing Confusion on allies and giving confusion to Targets

Clones, i think should be as you say more deceptive having them do Auto attacks is fine, they need to look like they are attacking after all – remove the condition giving, leave that to the new Phantoms

Improvements that could be made – Mirror Images, creates 3 clones and has a second use that it swaps the Mesmers location with the location of a clone randomly – all the 3 clones and the Mesmer get a shatter effect so the target(s) dont know which is the real mesmer on a 10 second cool down

This new improved Mirror Images could also allow the second useage of swapping locations to be useable as long as atleast 1 clone is active so that you dont have to use MI just to get access to it, so will work with clones that are created via other methods

Illusions and clones need more defense/health to counter AoE splash damage as well as to stop them dying from a single auto attack

Make it so Shatter BUFFS us and our clones/phantoms rather then destroying them So they still stay the way they are but rather then Phantoms and clones run up and blow themselves up to do damage they do something like:

Mind Wreck – Increase damage done buy the Mesmer as well as the condition damage from the new phantoms

Cry Of Frustration – Makes the Mesmers auto attacks to cause Confusion on the target(s) say 1 stack of confusion last 1.5 seconds per a stack and lasts for 10 seconds targets hit by bouncing attacks such as WoC also get affected BUT no AoE damage does

so lets say they get off 5 attacks in that time (could be more) they get 5 stacks of confusion that lasts 6.5seconds as it would refresh the duration so that it doesnt fall off every time

Diversion – same as CoF but causes Daze instead

Distortion – Not so sure about this one, but maybe makes the Mesmer, Clones and Phantoms immune to damage for 5 seconds?

Shattering is something I do as a finisher. If the enemy is down to around 10% health or so I can slam the F1 key and /giggle my way to victory. In PvP situations, the other shatters (F2 thru F4) offer various buffs and debuffs that increase survivability. In my opinion, Mesmer illusions were never intended to increase 1 on 1 damage… but rather toss chaos and confusion into the bucket of mess that we call combat.

Mitissa.1532:

Shattering is something I do as a finisher. If the enemy is down to around 10% health or so I can slam the F1 key and /giggle my way to victory. In PvP situations, the other shatters (F2 thru F4) offer various buffs and debuffs that increase survivability. In my opinion, Mesmer illusions were never intended to increase 1 on 1 damage… but rather toss chaos and confusion into the bucket of mess that we call combat.

The problems start with range, the fact that they can get stuck, they can be easily killed going through AoE so many ways to stop them unless they are melee clones or illusions

Mitissa.1532:

In my opinion, Mesmer illusions were never intended to increase 1 on 1 damage… but rather toss chaos and confusion into the bucket of mess that we call combat.

Clones I feel held this role while they wanted to give Phantasms to a Mesmer who wanted to focus on dealing damage through his Illusions. The entire purpose of this thread was focused on that one issue. Shatter only applies to one of those two play styles. I love the idea of Clones being defensive illusions for a Mesmer and Phantasms being offensive, the problem is…Clones are just shatter feed. They don’t distract, it’s easy to tell the difference. You WANT to shatter clones while if you shatter Phantasms you’re A LOT more hesitant.
This is especially going to get frustrating when people learn to take that split second and kill off Illusions when they’re summoned instead of ignoring them. Because unlike many other professions our skills focus on summoning those illusions and if they are actually destroyed and/or replace an existing illusion that’s a HUGE loss of skill function.
In addition to this, Mind Wrack, who has a pretty decent recharge time, is asking to be used more than just “Oh, he’s almost dead, I should use that!” If it was meant as a finisher, not a early/mid-combat skill, it would’ve had much greater amounts of damage and a longer recharge. I probably wouldn’t be “complaining” as much if it did. It’s just another thing that seems to not function how you would think it would on paper.

Get rid of damage from phantasms – Phantasms deal no damage, but when placed on a target either increase the ability of the Mesmer to deal damage against them or cause denial/reactive punishment for certain target behaviour, or both;
Get rid of damage from clones – Clones deal no damage, bleeding or other conditions, but are tweaked to more deliberately serve their function as defensive tools of deception that are intended to absorb attacks;

These suggestions just wreck the idea of clone heavy or phantasm heavy builds though, which is sort of a key feature of the class.

Heck, if anything Clone damage needs to be higher (or you need to be able to field more of them).

squiggit.2357:

Get rid of damage from phantasms – Phantasms deal no damage, but when placed on a target either increase the ability of the Mesmer to deal damage against them or cause denial/reactive punishment for certain target behaviour, or both;
Get rid of damage from clones – Clones deal no damage, bleeding or other conditions, but are tweaked to more deliberately serve their function as defensive tools of deception that are intended to absorb attacks;

These suggestions just wreck the idea of clone heavy or phantasm heavy builds though, which is sort of a key feature of the class.

Heck, if anything Clone damage needs to be higher (or you need to be able to field more of them).

Thats why i added my opinion, the damage comes from the player but the phantoms cause conditions on the enemy as well as curing conditions on allies

So take the iDualist for example – Rather then attacking the target doing what is it like 900+ damage per a hit in its spree which is like 6(?) attacks so instead they cause 6stacks of Bleeding then goes on cool down

Clones ARENT there for damage, they are for confusing enemies

squiggit.2357:

These suggestions just wreck the idea of clone heavy or phantasm heavy builds though, which is sort of a key feature of the class.

It’s true that they would mostly change up the ‘minion master’ build that sometimes seems like the default playstyle at the moment. I would personally say that illusions are the key feature of the class, and the suggestions above are only intended to make them more effective as illusions.

Instead of summoning pets to swarm your target with direct damage or by explosions-on-death (much like GW1 necromancer), the Mesmer could be more about clone-heavy builds that misdirect the attacks of their opponent (which already happens to some extent) and phantasm-heavy builds that force the target to make certain decisions that the Mesmer can predict or exploit.

I obviously don’t have any more insight into what the design team intended for the main playstyle of the profession than anyone else, and I could be completely off-base. Honestly though I personally don’t think ‘living hexes’ was just marketing speak for ‘regular damage-dealing pets’.

squiggit.2357:

Heck, if anything Clone damage needs to be higher (or you need to be able to field more of them).

Obviously we come from very different perspectives – what would your thoughts be on the function and point of clones?

totally agree, for me shattering is only useful for using mind wrack to finish a mob slightly quicker.

Shatters are fine. They make for good utility at the end of the build

Ever shatter Distortion to insure resurrecting an ally or stomping an enemy? Or to get out of what you know is going to be a massive AoE that you can’t dodge? Then you’re using Distortion correctly.

Your illusions are dead and you need a second to survive for your cooldowns, but all you’ve got is a clone? Summon it and fodder it for distraction, you’ve bought yourself a critical second.

Need an additional spike of damage to finish someone? Mind Wrack. That’s down? Cry of Frustration.

So let’s get into this a moment here, because people tend to forget it. We LOSE all of our illusions when their target is dead. Shatters give us a final utility to use in those instances as well. It does not matter if you find it counter-intuative during the course of a fight, they’re darn useful when finishing off an enemy, especially if other enemies are around them.

Shatters are an endgame for our illusions, they are the point in which you determin that they’re not worth trying to keep them alive and you need an additional something.

As I said in other threads, clones are used for more than just their distraction methods. They are clone fodder, they can be used as walking landmines of conditions, the skills that summon them on our weapon bar, often comes with other utilities, such as blocking an attack, teleporting us forward or back, crippling/immobalizing. Cloaking us.

Only two ability is really “Oh hay, I’ve got clones here!” and that’s Mirror Images, and The third hit in Secepter 1 combo which are potent for a shatter build or even to apply stats and bleeds from other locations.

Do not underestimate the strength of your clones and shatters. Play around, experiment, ask others. Plenty of Mesmers have gotten their milage out of clones, ask how they’re making theirs work.

Mesmer as a profession is more of a tactical class than a twich-skill class. A lot of premeditation and adaptability is needed to get the best out of everything we’ve got.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Shatters are fine. They make for good utility at the end of the build

…

Shatters give us a final utility to use in those instances as well. It does not matter if you find it counter-intuative during the course of a fight, they’re darn useful when finishing off an enemy, especially if other enemies are around them.

Shatters are an endgame for our illusions, they are the point in which you determin that they’re not worth trying to keep them alive and you need an additional something.

I’m not sure whose comments you are attempting to respond to, but I just wanted to mention this point briefly.

Shatter isn’t useless, and it can offer a slight increase in overall damage (if traited and timed correctly). It can also provide a temporary defensive boon (even if only significantly effective in PvP). I don’t think many would dispute that.

I think the argument being made about shatter, or at least the argument I would make, is that destroying your own unique punishment effects in exchange for either standard punishment effects or minor boons/conditions is overall a very contrary and unsatisfying core mechanic.

If an analogy helps, imagine that the GW1 Mesmer did not gain faster skill use with their primary attribute, but instead it was based around their core function being to quickly and constantly wipe all hexes from enemies (not allies). In exchange, with higher attributes they gain a slight boost of energy or a slight burst of direct/AoE damage every time they did so. Could that allow them to deal more damage over time if perfectly timed? Certainly. Could it lead to effective builds? Sure. Would it align with their core themes of debilitation and control? Personally, I don’t think so – suddenly you have competing mechanics where on one hand you are trying to apply punishment and control and on the other you are benefiting from constantly trying to remove it.

The GW2 Mesmer seems to me to be in a similar place right now. Sure, it can be made to work. Unfortunately, I don’t think it works in a way that is as synergistic or satisfying as it could be, nor in a way that best aligns with illusion, manipulation and deception being the core themes of the profession.

Everything you just tried to say is a complete negative said in a joyful tone. Just thought I’d point that out.
Because forums are broken and I can’t quote I’ll do it the old way.

“It does not matter if you find it counter-intuative during the course of a fight…”

This sentence is the downfall of all the positive points tried you make.

And then, this:

“Shatters are an endgame for our illusions, they are the point in which you determin that they’re not worth trying to keep them alive and you need an additional something.”

That’s great…if you’re talking about clones. Why bring phantasms if not for their abilities? Through the entire post its “Clones and shatters”. What about “Phantasms and shatters”? All of your traits that affect a clone spamming Mesmer are great for applying additional affects to clones and really getting additional affects while they are active before you shatter them, but in the end you use them for a completely different reason than a Phantasm Mesmer. That is where this post is aiming and I’m getting a little tired of pointing it out. Take your post and insert the word “Phantasm” every time you see the word clone and it imagine how the traits that affect those Phantasms differ from the clone traits then tell me if your post sounds remotely viable. You COMPLETELY neglected the mention of Phantasms and came in here and started spouting about how shatter are fine because they have clone fodder… you missed the point. Please, as I asked before, really think before you come in here to post. Thank you.^.^
Now back to the main subject, How do we make Shatter’s a viable option for a Mesmer who wants to specialize in Phantasms. GO!

Roven Leafsong.8917

^This guy. This is what a post sounds like when someone really thought before writing. Thank you very much for your contribution and saying what I could not.

Roven Leafsong.8917:

Obviously we come from very different perspectives – what would your thoughts be on the function and point of clones?

I think it should depend on spec. I frankly, like the style you’ve described (pure deception), but I also think that a more clone centric build utilizing them as DPS aides should be functional too.

If I were behind design, I’d probably up the clone cap (and maybe untie them from targets or make them easier to generate), but make Phantasms cost two slots. Then improve trait support for default clones and phantasms to make them more defined build choices (while still leaving shatter or cloneless specs largely intact).

I swear, people don’t read.

TL;DL version. Shatters are useful in any situation in which the Clone or Illusion cannot utalize it’s full potential any longer.

OR

When the utility/power of the shatter in the immediate outweights the longterm use.

Shatters themselves are not counter-intuitive. Spamming shatters without discretion is counter intuitive. Shatters are not something that are designed for you to use every cool-down, and it is an error in judgment to believe that it should.

Point in case: If you’re not using shatter in WvW, you’re really gutting yourself. But if you’re fighting someone one, on one, you’d only shatter when it benefits you most. Like to save your life, insure a kill or a stomp.

This isn’t bad design, it’s intelligent design. It forces you to think about what you are doing. As opposed to herp-derping your face on the keyboard to win.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

I swear, people don’t read.

Point in case: If you’re not using shatter in WvW, you’re really gutting yourself. But if you’re fighting someone one, on one, you’d only shatter when it benefits you most. Like to save your life, insure a kill or a stomp.

I think you’re missing the point. I understand what you’re trying to say but I disagree with it. Yes, shatters have useful effects and there are times at which it is not only a good time to shatter, but a great time. However, my argument is in a different direction. What I’m really trying to get at is what you said yourself:

“It does not matter if you find it counter-intuative during the course of a fight”

I’m not saying the current system is completely terrible and is crap and doesn’t work, blah..blah..blah. I didn’t say that but you are arguing like I did. What was instead being pointed out is that as far as actual combat mechanics go, in combat, shatters are indeed counter intuitive. Especially so for a Mesmer focusing on getting damage out through the use of those Illusions (Phantasms). Of course they have their uses, but does that justify their continued exact existence when instead they could be modified to allow you the ability to use them in combat? You say it really makes you think as it is now but at the same time you support the idea of only using them on rare specific occasions, so how does that force you to think? I say making them additional combat tools is what would force you to think and what would really show the sign of a good Mesmer instead of just one who knows to block attacks as he’s stomping… because that’s clearly top level play right there, not using your profession mechanic in combat to disrupt and control an enemy.

Combat varies and I’d like to have shatter to adapt to that “intelligently” and not just using my shatter for the same generic actions because those happen to be the only times when it’s actually beneficial to sacrifice one profession mechanic for another. That is what becomes what you like to call “herp-derping”.

squiggit.2357:

I think it should depend on spec. I frankly, like the style you’ve described (pure deception), but I also think that a more clone centric build utilizing them as DPS aides should be functional too.

That’s fair and reasonable.

I guess I just personally wish it was a very niche and optional build, rather than a core aspect of the profession. That’s definitely just personal preference speaking though.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Shatters are useful in any situation in which the Clone or Illusion cannot utalize it’s full potential any longer.

OR

When the utility/power of the shatter in the immediate outweights the longterm use.

Absolutely. I’m not sure if you are responding to myself or others in the thread, but I’ll just emphasise this point in case it was overlooked.

Roven Leafsong.8917:

Shatter isn’t useless, and it can offer a slight increase in overall damage (if traited and timed correctly). It can also provide a temporary defensive boon (even if only significantly effective in PvP). I don’t think many would dispute that.

Sorry for the confusion if you were addressing someone else.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Shatters themselves are not counter-intuitive.

…

This isn’t bad design, it’s intelligent design. It forces you to think about what you are doing.

Well, I would say that it forces you to evaluate whether the damage your minions will deal over time and the utility/defense they provide is worth exchanging for a spike of damage or defensive interrupt/evade. On the damage side I think they are actually quite complex calculations in most cases to determine whether the shatter is a bonus or a detriment – except for the trivial situations of course where your illusions are going to die anyway so you don’t really have anything to lose. I can understand that for many players that kind of spontaneous optimising-on-the-go can be fun though.

I would also note that the two dominant Mesmer gameplay styles (PvE) at the moment would seem to be either minion-bomber (shatter) or minion-master (clones/phantasms), and while you generally have to choose to focus on only one of them, you can certainly sometimes make use of the other style at need.

Personally, I wonder what the profession would feel like if the core mechanic brought new and clearly beneficial options – independent of the right trait combination or build style. An exchange mechanic that trades illusions for slightly larger numbers (provided you build and time it correctly) is only as good as the conversion equation, and yet it is so heavily influenced by traits and statistics that it is usually stacked one way or the other well before combat begins.

If I can ask, do you see that from my perspective as someone who would like to be using illusions to manipulate, harm and deceive opponents, the idea of constantly shredding all illusions that would otherwise be confusing or debilitating my opponent (or supporting me or my allies) is less satisfying? That I accept that doing so could very well produce a small DPS boost or defensive window if timed and traited accordingly, but that it makes me feel like more of a minion management profession than an illusionist?

Roven Leafsong.8917:

I would also note that the two dominant Mesmer gameplay styles (PvE) at the moment would seem to be either minion-bomber (shatter) or minion-master (clones/phantasms), and while you generally have to choose to focus on only one of them, you can certainly sometimes make use of the other style at need.

Personally, I wonder what the profession would feel like if the core mechanic brought new and clearly beneficial options – independent of the right trait combination or build style. An exchange mechanic that trades illusions for slightly larger numbers (provided you build and time it correctly) is only as good as the conversion equation, and yet it is so heavily influenced by traits and statistics that it is usually stacked one way or the other well before combat begins.

If I can ask, do you see that from my perspective as someone who would like to be using illusions to manipulate, harm and deceive opponents, the idea of constantly shredding all illusions that would otherwise be confusing or debilitating my opponent (or supporting me or my allies) is less satisfying? That I accept that doing so could very well produce a small DPS boost or defensive window if timed and traited accordingly, but that it makes me feel like more of a minion management profession than an illusionist?

Jumping in here – I completely agree with you. You’ve very clearly expressed an opinion that I share. I tried to elaborate on some of these points in another thread, but you’ve said it better than I was able to.

I won’t restate my opinion in this thread, but I’d appreciate it if you’d take a look at this one and let me know what you think of my suggestions on this subject
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmers-The-Epitome-of-Bad-Design/first#post241755

If I can ask, do you see that from my perspective as someone who would like to be using illusions to manipulate, harm and deceive opponents, the idea of constantly shredding all illusions that would otherwise be confusing or debilitating my opponent (or supporting me or my allies) is less satisfying? That I accept that doing so could very well produce a small DPS boost or defensive window if timed and traited accordingly, but that it makes me feel like more of a minion management profession than an illusionist?

I’ve answered this question several times before, but perhaps a different phrasing is in order.

Where do you not see the concept of deception within Mesmer?

Allow me to provide examples.

Illusionary Leap causes a clone to leap into the enemy’s close range. If he connects, he is first crippled momentarily.

The enemy, provided we are talking humans here. Is now forced with three possibilities, choices you can make in a heartbeat.

The first and most frequently used solution is that the mesmer is preparing to swap places with this clone, mobilize him, and prepare for an incoming assault, likely blurred frenzy.

The second is a decoy, the mesmer instead sent the clone into close range to die, either through enemy confusion or AoE, death from the clone can further cripple on top of many other status effects. Or, he may choose to shatter the illusion for one of 4 different reasons. Either way, the clone is there to be sacrificed.

The third, the clone is there to live, hits from the clone might not deal any notable damage, but leaving it alive leaves the further two options open (The swap for 3 further seconds is still available) on top of the fact that now it’s inflicting vulnerability for every time it attacks.

One move, three routes of deception, that’s even IF the enemy has kept good track of you and knows where you are and what you are doing.

This process repeats for every clone, provided you use it correctly.

Further examples.

- Mirror Images on a bleed built greatsword user isn’t a shatter decoy, but is meant to stack ungodly amounts of bleed upon the enemy. Yet, they can just as easily be used to detonate a 2 second distortion in an emergancy. But killing them can also cause cripple unless you do so at a range. Turning to strike them however buys the mesmer time he may have needed to heal.

- A Immobalized Staff Mesmer suddenly phase shifts and decoys. Before Decoy wears off the Mesmer utilizes Deceptive evasion from a dodge and utalizes another decoy. Suddenly four identical staff users are pushing out winds of chaos and random status effects. And the Real Mesmer was wise enough to stand still when his decoy’s stealth wore off, but ‘slips’ and reveals himself. The thief things himself inteligent and moves into Heartseeker strike. But suddenly, all those clones rush in on him and the Mesmer himself explodes – whoops, that particular mesmer was a shatter build, including traiting himself to have the shatter effects as well. 4x Mind Wracks close in on an over anxious squishy target.

See where my point is at?

There are bad players who are deceived by the appearance of the clones and move to attack them, mistakenly seeing them as you(And in the heat of the battle, you definitely can get confused.)

And then there’s the smart ones who have to worry what you’re going to do with the clones even if they recognize you among them.

The deception factor of a Mesmer lies beyond simple bait and switch tactics. The idea that clones are only for the use of distracting someone’s eye is only the bare surface level. If you enjoy that surface level, it still does work against people, and it’s programmed to work on AI’s, so it still exists.

But it will only work on the confused. Once players get used to how a Mesmer works, you’re going to have to employ that deeper level of deception that Mesmer is, in my opinion, truly about. Not the fact that you’re producing look-alikes, but what you wind up doing with them. Shatters add to the depth of that larger deception.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

I’ve answered this question several times before, but perhaps a different phrasing is in order.

Sorry if I have missed it – where was that answer?

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Where do you not see the concept of deception within Mesmer?

While an interesting question, surely you would appreciate that the statement ‘Mesmers have no deception’ (which is apparently what you’re discussing) is quite different to the statement ‘the shatter mechanic doesn’t fit well with the profession’ (which is what I’m discussing).

Could it be that we may actually be mostly in agreeance with each other and not actually debating the same topic?

Edit: Just to avoid further confusion and misunderstandings and to answer your question directly – the profession has amazing deception. I love the illusion skills. The examples you’ve given of the deception possible with the profession are wonderfully illustrative of the parts that I really appreciate the most! (Admittedly, you are again focusing on PvP, but I’m more than happy to take your word for it.)

The part that I am hoping to discuss is not leap, decoy, phase retreat and so on – it is the core mechanic – shatter – which does not add anything interesting to those examples more than any other direct damage skill or utility used once the illusions have done their work. The reason of course is because shatter shreds illusions, as discussed above.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Shatters add to the depth of that larger deception.

Okay, this is the only part that appears in reference to what I’ve said, but you haven’t really acknowledged or addressed the points that I raised earlier – unless I’ve missed it, which is certainly possible. Edit: Perhaps to be more constructive, could you explain why you feel shatter mechanics add to the deception?

Actually, my argument is that you’ve mistaken the core mechanic of a Mesmer, or rather it’s function as one.

You’ve also jumped points more than once in this discussion, so you’ll have to clarify which one you are essentially championing at this moment.

Put simply, the point I have answered was the point I directly quoted, so there should be no confusion.

If you are shattering ‘constantly’:

a, you are doing it wrong as you’re depleting resourecs, and shatters are not a resource you use constantly on cooldowns unless you’re in WvW and your illusions are about to die as soon as they are summoned anyways.

b, you’re not utilizing the tiers of deception that are the core mechanic of the class.

What shatter are, are a last resource for illusions that have effectively outlived their usefulness, or were produced to die in the first place. They also add a greater depth to it.

Now if you wish to regard earlier parts of your argument, we can bring them up individually. However I do beleive you are affixed to a name of a class that was essentially redesigned specifically for Guild Wars 2, not Guild Wars 1 continued. And attempting to compare the give and take mechanics of Mesmers to other Professions is somewhat mistaking the other utilities this class CAN use instantly.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Actually, my argument is that you’ve mistaken the core mechanic of a Mesmer, or rather it’s function as one.

Alright, I’m interested to hear your perspective on this.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

You’ve also jumped points more than once in this discussion, so you’ll have to clarify which one you are essentially championing at this moment.

I’m sorry for not communicating clearly, but there are two issues I have tried to raise here:

1. Shatters. In agreeance with the sentiment of this thread, if not the solution, I personally feel that the core mechanic of shatters could have greater synergy with the rest of the profession; and
2. Minion-like illusions. In regards to the proportion of damage dealt directly by illusions compared to the Mesmer, I personally feel that the illusions we create could be improved so that they are a lot less like damaging pets or minions, and further in the vein of the ‘living hexes’ (phantasms) and defensive tools of denial/mobility (clones). Both already serve these purposes to varying degrees.

I’ve responded to your post primarily regarding the first point, which is what we’ve been discussing.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

If you are shattering ‘constantly’:

I don’t. You are quite right that I used a poor choice of words there. Perhaps ‘repeatedly’ would have been more clear.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

What shatter are, are a last resource for illusions that have effectively outlived their usefulness, or were produced to die in the first place. They also add a greater depth to it.

Okay, how do they add greater depth to the deception?

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Now if you wish to regard earlier parts of your argument, we can bring them up individually.

Please feel free, I’m enjoying the discussion and I hope I’m not the only one!

Here’s what we’re all ignoring about Phantasms. Even with Phantasmal Haste, most phantasms take at least 5 seconds between attacks. This is a very long time in this game. If if you’re completely specced as an MMM, (minion master mesmer). If you use iBerserker, it can get off ~3 attacks before you can recast it. You’re not trading minutes of beautiful dps for a shatter, you’re trading the possibility of a couple more hits over a dozen seconds (again, a long time in GW2), for results NOW. That’s the real beauty of the class, is that level of management of your resources. Yes, if your build is purely based on making phantasms and letting them do a giant chunk of your dps, you’ve already resigned yourself to playing a minion master, and won’t get a great deal of utility out of destroying your minions. The problem I keep seeing is that no one ever builds for illusions in general. Everyone either wants all clones for shattering or all phantasms for sustained dps/effects. I’ve found playing with both to be the most satisfying so far. I drop a pile of clones, shatter them, then start summoning phantasms to see where the fights going to go. If my opponent is going after my phantasms, they get sacked pretty quickly and I move on to the next phase. If my opponent ignores them and focuses on me, I start evading and let the berserker and friends go crazy. Eventually it will become apparent when it’s time to shatter this batch and move on to another clone dump, or maybe just keep putting up phantasms.

The magic of shatters is the level of control over your resources it gives you, and I find the balance between sustaining what you’ve built vs cashing in for a quick bang to play very well. You just need to read the battle, and be prepared to change tactics on the fly. Whether you always shatter a pile of clones or always amass an army of phantasms, you’re making yourself predictable. Mix it up, it takes a bit more skill to track but it’s a blast! A big, purple, butterfly filled blast!