Blub.
Should WoC be more like Siren's Call
Staff themes are randomness and support. So vulnerability might not the best condition you can hope for but it is still useful for your party mates and your phantasms.
And no, staff isn’t our condition weapon since it’s an hybrid one (look at the sorcerer > pure burst damage). Scepter/torch fits more as a condition set but is still hybrid. Our only truly condition weapon is trident.
Saying that Phantasmal Warlock changes the Staff from a condition weapon to a hybrid weapon is about as silly as saying that the trident is a hybrid weapon because Spinning Revenge gives retaliation…
By that definition there are virtually no condition weapons in the game since most weapons have a physical component to them like Ranger Shortbow for example.
Your best source of condition damage in PVE as a Mesmer comes from Sharper Image bleeds applied from illusion attacks. iDuelist, iBerserker, iWarden, Greatsword clones, and Sword clones stack bleeds more consistently than a staff clones can.
In a group setting, a warlock can often crit for 8 – 10k every 6-7 seconds.
Staff is a hybrid weapon because you can use it with either gear setup: either focus on 0 clones and 3 warlocks for direct damage or 3 clones and 0 warlocks for condition damage. Or go shatter and use both. The auto-attack tickles while giving vulnerability for direct damage builds and bleeding and burning for condition damage builds.
Because of that, staff DPS is sometimes mediocre and situational, but that’s ok. Think of it like a Shield or Warhorn. You aren’t equipping it to min/max your DPS. And the best news? Any gear setup can make use of it.
It’s like the staff clones attacks don’t inflict burning, don’t bounce, and use Sharper images themselves…
3 staff clones over time will do more condition damage then any other illusion (triple warden might be an exception, and trident clones don’t count).
What other illusions (especially phantasms) are better for is “spike” condition damage. A iDuelist for example can inflict up to 8 stacks of bleed immediately when summoned, but then must wait for his next attack to apply any more bleeds.
Also if you are really running a staff with a glass cannon build with the intent of doing a ton of damage with 3 warlocks you are doing something very wrong. Greatsword or even Sword/Scepter + Pistol would do much better then a staff.
Now there are a few reasons to use the staff with a more power based build, but most of those uses are PvP situations.
Summoning 3 warlocks on a boss used to be good until Anet hammered his attack speed into oblivion. Now there are much better options and unless there’s a reason you need both the GS and the staff to kite something around the room, or you need an extra ethereal field I just can’t see a lot of need to use the staff in PvE content considering the GS largely outclasses it with Power armor.
as a mesmer, i’m saying it here first, the changes to underwater trident is OP as kitten.
its even MORE op than the confusion stacks we could sustain before. now its just a joke, 25 stacks of bleed in like 5 seconds flat. can any other class do this with any weapon? not to mention being able to stack vigor for over 30 seconds, extremely quickly.
so no, staff shouldn’t be like trident, staff is very balanced in terms of damage, because of offers so much defensive capabilities.
Feels like Anet didn’t really complete the condition builds for the Mesmer at its core because condition builds undeniably have their weakest points in weapon skill #1. GS #1 and sword #1 are incredibly useful and definitely worth spamming (as much as auto-attacks are spammed) given the opportunity but I just don’t see the reward for staff and sceptor #1. Staff #1 is incredibly slow and the damage unreliable and Illusionary Elasticity is bugged because it doesn’t bounce at all if the range is 900+. Sceptor #1 used to have confusion but they didn’t compensate anything for it when it was removed. As of now confusion builds are really nothing more than support-CC builds with the occasional kills from players spamming skills w/o realizing they have confusion on them. Mesmers need to have a consistent and reliable condition damage build just like how a Thief can go a burst build or a bleed build. I really like how the Thief is balanced to be feasible in both extremes of damage dealing. I don’t really care whether the main condition build weapon becomes the staff or the sceptor.
Feels like Anet didn’t really complete the condition builds for the Mesmer at its core because condition builds undeniably have their weakest points in weapon skill #1. GS #1 and sword #1 are incredibly useful and definitely worth spamming (as much as auto-attacks are spammed) given the opportunity but I just don’t see the reward for staff and sceptor #1. Staff #1 is incredibly slow and the damage unreliable and Illusionary Elasticity is bugged because it doesn’t bounce at all if the range is 900+. Sceptor #1 used to have confusion but they didn’t compensate anything for it when it was removed. As of now confusion builds are really nothing more than support-CC builds with the occasional kills from players spamming skills w/o realizing they have confusion on them. Mesmers need to have a consistent and reliable condition damage build just like how a Thief can go a burst build or a bleed build. I really like how the Thief is balanced to be feasible in both extremes of damage dealing. I don’t really care whether the main condition build weapon becomes the staff or the sceptor.
there is so many things wrong with this..
1. staff#1 is by FAR the best autoattack skill mesmers have for ANY weapon. simply because its secondary effect is its main source of damage, meaning your clones will boost your total dps far greater than clones from other weapons.
2. staff#1 bounces have a limited range(600), its range is less than the cast range(1200). it’s designed that way on purpose, and has nothing to do with the bounce trait. that trait is not bugged(different story for clones).
3. confusion damage is extremely potent in wvw, but it really has nothing to do with your weapon choice, and more so how you build your traits and utilities. and a confusion build would not be qualified as a support build, i would call it a cc/condition build.
staff is the condition weapon for mesmers, period, and it’s an extremely good one.
there is so many things wrong with this..
1. staff#1 is by FAR the best autoattack skill mesmers have for ANY weapon. simply because its secondary effect is its main source of damage, meaning your clones will boost your total dps far greater than clones from other weapons.
2. staff#1 bounces have a limited range(600), its range is less than the cast range(1200). it’s designed that way on purpose, and has nothing to do with the bounce trait. that trait is not bugged(different story for clones).
3. confusion damage is extremely potent in wvw, but it really has nothing to do with your weapon choice, and more so how you build your traits and utilities. and a confusion build would not be qualified as a support build, i would call it a cc/condition build.
staff is the condition weapon for mesmers, period, and it’s an extremely good one.
1. Hardly. I don’t even have to argue relative numbers since every decent Mesmer should know that the GS does the most amount of DPS with the #1 attack skill, it has better synergy with Sharper Images, and it’s not even a projectile that can be reflected with skills like Feedback. On top of the fact that the conditions are too drastic with WoC (Burning: 600+/only one tick Bleeding: 120+ Vulnerability: Negligible), anyone who’s played a condition Mesmer should know that it’s about using the extreme mobility we have from skills and utilities to survive while basically waiting for clones and yourself to stack a decent amount of bleeds on them. Staff as it is currently is “(a really good) survivability weapon” that is equipped for defensive purposes to complement GS power builds or Sword burst builds. It is only “the best condition damage weapon” by default because while that should’ve been the sceptor’s role, its #1 attack makes it completely unviable in competitive PvP. And even if your argument holds any ground that “it’s the best #1 attack Mesmers have”, it still says nothing against my argument that it’s incredibly slow and unreliable. Your argument being true would only mean Mesmers have the worst #1 attack skills but manage because they have better #2-5 and utility skills than other professions.
2. If what we have now are by design and not bugged, then that implies condition damage builds must be in sceptor range to utilize its full potential. Basically forcing us to use the staff like a sceptor because the sceptor can’t do its role properly.
3. I would like to see your Sword/Sword and Sceptor/Focus Condition Damage Build please. You look so cute and naive, saying things like “it has nothing to do with weapon choice”. I chuckled at that.
The staff is a buff/debuff machine. It doesn’t just spread conditions. Vulnerability is a good fit, as it supports your team. The staff isn’t what you equip for great damage, but it has its role.
If you increase the damage to make it competitive with, say GS, without nerfing down its supportiveness, why would anyone not use it? We don’t want one choice to be best for every situation or we lose any real choice in how to play.
While I do feel Anet seems to be ignoring Mesmer condition builds (and possibly condition builds as a whole), I wouldn’t say we are particularly incomplete in that regard. True, Mesmer condition builds cannot dish out the DPS nor the burst of Shatter builds, but they compensate for that with superior resilience. I would actually say that Mesmer condition builds are probably easier to pick up than Shatter builds, due to superior defenses and having a significant portion of your DPS pretty much automated.
I’d be happy if staff innately had two bounces (three hits total) like trident does. Hitting the same enemy twice per attack per clone is amazing by default. It’d go a long ways towards offsetting the randomness of Staff.
there is so many things wrong with this..
1. staff#1 is by FAR the best autoattack skill mesmers have for ANY weapon. simply because its secondary effect is its main source of damage, meaning your clones will boost your total dps far greater than clones from other weapons.
2. staff#1 bounces have a limited range(600), its range is less than the cast range(1200). it’s designed that way on purpose, and has nothing to do with the bounce trait. that trait is not bugged(different story for clones).
3. confusion damage is extremely potent in wvw, but it really has nothing to do with your weapon choice, and more so how you build your traits and utilities. and a confusion build would not be qualified as a support build, i would call it a cc/condition build.
staff is the condition weapon for mesmers, period, and it’s an extremely good one.
1. Hardly. I don’t even have to argue relative numbers since every decent Mesmer should know that the GS does the most amount of DPS with the #1 attack skill, it has better synergy with Sharper Images, and it’s not even a projectile that can be reflected with skills like Feedback. On top of the fact that the conditions are too drastic with WoC (Burning: 600+/only one tick Bleeding: 120+ Vulnerability: Negligible), anyone who’s played a condition Mesmer should know that it’s about using the extreme mobility we have from skills and utilities to survive while basically waiting for clones and yourself to stack a decent amount of bleeds on them. Staff as it is currently is “(a really good) survivability weapon” that is equipped for defensive purposes to complement GS power builds or Sword burst builds. It is only “the best condition damage weapon” by default because while that should’ve been the sceptor’s role, its #1 attack makes it completely unviable in competitive PvP. And even if your argument holds any ground that “it’s the best #1 attack Mesmers have”, it still says nothing against my argument that it’s incredibly slow and unreliable. Your argument being true would only mean Mesmers have the worst #1 attack skills but manage because they have better #2-5 and utility skills than other professions.
2. If what we have now are by design and not bugged, then that implies condition damage builds must be in sceptor range to utilize its full potential. Basically forcing us to use the staff like a sceptor because the sceptor can’t do its role properly.
3. I would like to see your Sword/Sword and Sceptor/Focus Condition Damage Build please. You look so cute and naive, saying things like “it has nothing to do with weapon choice”. I chuckled at that.
1. GS does more dps at max distance, with full berserker stats. the difference you have to consider is with staff, you’d be running rabid stats. which have only 2 offensive stats. the higher dps you get with GS counter balances with increased survivability with staff, stat wise AND skill wise.
2. staff by design is a medium-short range weapon, all of its skills point to this being the case. but i dont disagree that scepter is kitten. its autoattack and phantasm needs to be changed.
3. when i said nothing to do with weapon choice, i assumed you would be using a weapon that had condition damage skills associated with it. since a confusion build relies on you using condition damage gear. obviously sword OH would not be one of them.
but i dont disagree that scepter is kitten. its autoattack and phantasm needs to be changed.
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lol, my mistake, i automatically associated scepter with torch. torch phantasm needs to be changed
but i dont disagree that scepter is kitten. its autoattack and phantasm needs to be changed.
…
How bad is it that I didn’t even miss a beat when reading that? Yeah, when comparing our crap weapon skills, scepter and iMage come up the most by far, and thus, often together.
Lone Wolf Mesmer | Warrior | Engineer | Thief
Dissentient [DIS] ~Tarnished Coast
Dissentient [DIS] ~Tarnished Coast
1. GS does more dps at max distance, with full berserker stats. the difference you have to consider is with staff, you’d be running rabid stats. which have only 2 offensive stats. the higher dps you get with GS counter balances with increased survivability with staff, stat wise AND skill wise.
2. staff by design is a medium-short range weapon, all of its skills point to this being the case. but i dont disagree that scepter is kitten. its autoattack and phantasm needs to be changed.
3. when i said nothing to do with weapon choice, i assumed you would be using a weapon that had condition damage skills associated with it. since a confusion build relies on you using condition damage gear. obviously sword OH would not be one of them.
1. Right, except the main point was never about stats or builds or other skills. Just the #1 auto-attack. You’re losing track of the discussion at hand.
3. So basically you’ve clarified your point as being “it doesn’t matter whether you use a staff or a sceptor, it’s the build that matters”. So now show me a Sceptor condition damage Mesmer that rivals a Staff condition damage Mesmer. Where exactly are you trying to go with your argument?
a scepter condition mesmer would be traited with confusion boosting abilities, so your primary weapon with a confusion build would be scepter.
a confusion build is a condition build, so in that case scepter is better than staff, but you’d be using both anyways in that case.
a scepter condition mesmer would be traited with confusion boosting abilities, so your primary weapon with a confusion build would be scepter.
a confusion build is a condition build, so in that case scepter is better than staff, but you’d be using both anyways in that case.
Mmhmm. Now if you actually had a point in posting this kind of stuff, it’d be actually interesting to read. Just another mindless forum user.
uhh, you were the one that originally went off topic, comparing staff to scepter viability, and condition damage in general.
i’ve said in my earlier posts, explicitly and implied that staff autoattack is balanced. you can’t consider just one skill of a weapon and ask if it’s balanced or not. you can’t boost staff autoattack dps and not make the weapon as a whole OP.
i also like how you insult others for failing to make a point in a forum dedicated to discussing class mechanics, while at the same time failing to make a valid point yourself.
uhh, you were the one that originally went off topic, comparing staff to scepter viability, and condition damage in general.
i’ve said in my earlier posts, explicitly and implied that staff autoattack is balanced. you can’t consider just one skill of a weapon and ask if it’s balanced or not. you can’t boost staff autoattack dps and not make the weapon as a whole OP.
i also like how you insult others for failing to make a point in a forum dedicated to discussing class mechanics, while at the same time failing to make a valid point yourself.
I’m only going to do this with just ONE of the many points where you went off track because doing all would simply be a waste of my time.
Staff #1 is incredibly slow and the damage unreliable
Point of argument.
1. staff#1 is by FAR the best autoattack skill mesmers have for ANY weapon.
Counter-argument.
I don’t even have to argue relative numbers since every decent Mesmer should know that the GS does the most amount of DPS with the #1 attack skill, it has better synergy with Sharper Images, and it’s not even a projectile that can be reflected with skills like Feedback.
…
It is only “the best condition damage weapon” by default because while that should’ve been the sceptor’s role, its #1 attack makes it completely unviable in competitive PvP. And even if your argument holds any ground that “it’s the best #1 attack Mesmers have”, it still says nothing against my argument that it’s incredibly slow and unreliable. Your argument being true would only mean Mesmers have the worst #1 attack skills but manage because they have better #2-5 and utility skills than other professions.
Reasoning why counter-argument is not valid. Also pointing out why your argument is not actually even a counter-argument.
1. GS does more dps at max distance, with full berserker stats. the difference you have to consider is with staff, you’d be running rabid stats. which have only 2 offensive stats. the higher dps you get with GS counter balances with increased survivability with staff, stat wise AND skill wise.
Fail #1: Failed to acknowledge that your counter-argument holds no ground. No further evidence that staff #1 is the best auto-attack versus the GS #1 attack or counter-reasoning to my reasoning as quoted one quote above this one. Irrelevant rambling about distance and stats, including more irrelevant skills other than the #1 auto-attack.
1. Right, except the main point was never about stats or builds or other skills. Just the #1 auto-attack. You’re losing track of the discussion at hand.
Pointing out your failure.
a scepter condition mesmer would be traited with confusion boosting abilities, so your primary weapon with a confusion build would be scepter.
a confusion build is a condition build, so in that case scepter is better than staff, but you’d be using both anyways in that case.
Fail #2: No acknowledgement of failure to keep the discussion to the original point. No discussion that encourages productive replies. Rambling (not reasoning) of other points that are equally irrelevant to the point where we’re not even talking about the same topic anymore.
Logic.
Fail #1: Failed to acknowledge that your counter-argument holds no ground. No further evidence that staff #1 is the best auto-attack versus the GS #1 attack or counter-reasoning to my reasoning as quoted one quote above this one. Irrelevant rambling about distance and stats, including more irrelevant skills other than the #1 auto-attack.
i said this already in the post you ignored, but i’ll say it again.
you cant compare the overall damage and utility of autoattack skills for different weapons in isolation.
you have to consider the builds that that weapon caters towards, and the other skills in the weapon set. there is no such thing as a poorly designed or unbalanced skill, but entire weapon sets.
edit: for instance, if you wanted more reliable damage from staff, by replacing the vulnerability for poison, then you would need to balance it by taking a hit in your survivability, say a longer cooldown on phase retreat.
or if you wanted to double the projectile speed and let clone projectiles bounce properly, then you’d have to reduce the duration of each condition. if you didn’t the weapon would be OP(see the new siren’s call)
(edited by wads.5730)
i said this already in the post you ignored, but i’ll say it again.
you cant compare the overall damage and utility of autoattack skills for different weapons in isolation.
you have to consider the builds that that weapon caters towards, and the other skills in the weapon set. there is no such thing as a poorly designed or unbalanced skill, but entire weapon sets.
edit: for instance, if you wanted more reliable damage from staff, by replacing the vulnerability for poison, then you would need to balance it by taking a hit in your survivability, say a longer cooldown on phase retreat.
or if you wanted to double the projectile speed and let clone projectiles bounce properly, then you’d have to reduce the duration of each condition. if you didn’t the weapon would be OP(see the new siren’s call)
Not even going to bother typing anything new after this. If you want to talk about balance as a whole, I suggest you make your own thread for it because you’re barking at the wrong tree.
So should it be more like Siren’s Call Apply some buffs and only one condtion. I would be fine with losing vulnerability and burn if I would get some consistend dmg out put. What do you think?
Staff #1 is incredibly slow and the damage unreliable
it still says nothing against my argument that it’s incredibly slow and unreliable.
i said this already in the post you ignored, but i’ll say it again.
you cant compare the overall damage and utility of autoattack skills for different weapons in isolation.
you have to consider the builds that that weapon caters towards, and the other skills in the weapon set. there is no such thing as a poorly designed or unbalanced skill, but entire weapon sets.
edit: for instance, if you wanted more reliable damage from staff, by replacing the vulnerability for poison, then you would need to balance it by taking a hit in your survivability, say a longer cooldown on phase retreat.
or if you wanted to double the projectile speed and let clone projectiles bounce properly, then you’d have to reduce the duration of each condition. if you didn’t the weapon would be OP(see the new siren’s call)
Not even going to bother typing anything new after this. If you want to talk about balance as a whole, I suggest you make your own thread for it because you’re barking at the wrong tree.
So should it be more like Siren’s Call Apply some buffs and only one condtion. I would be fine with losing vulnerability and burn if I would get some consistend dmg out put. What do you think?
Staff #1 is incredibly slow and the damage unreliable
it still says nothing against my argument that it’s incredibly slow and unreliable.
its only slow and unreliable if you’re trying to engage an enemy at near max range. the staff isn’t designed to be a long ranged weapon. the projectiles slow travel speed is less relevant at <900 range, and is preferred at <600 range where the bounces actually happen.
so if you believe its slow and unreliable then you’re playing wrong with the staff. plus many in this thread is forgetting that unlike other weapons, a large portion of your condition damage from staff comes from your clones, and not from yourself.