Guild Wars 2

This for real? I can understand the need in PvE, but this signet is bad for PvP. Split for game types, fix the application bug and change to 100% in PvP. Boom, the skill is balanced.

It was always 200%, they just fixed the tooltip

They also should fix it first before nerfing.

Nerf that tooltip fix…. delete irl

Rinzler.8072:

It was always 200%, they just fixed the tooltip

Aw, why did you take that away from me! I wanted to make the OP looks stupid! ;_;

Leuca.5732:

This for real? I can understand the need in PvE, but this signet is bad for PvP. Split for game types, fix the application bug and change to 100% in PvP. Boom, the skill is balanced.

lol

I think you are confused here

No, I know it was always 200%. I figured it was a bug but apparently Anet thinks that kind of HP on spammable allies that receive your stats is fine.

It’s also fine if you want to make me look stupid, but please address the nature of the skill instead of whether or not I knew about the skill’s function before the tooltip update. That’s what the subject of the thread is, so don’t be stupid.

(1) The topic isn’t you guys … it’s signet of illusions and the +200% hp it gives to illusions. Get back on topic and off each other. You’re dangerously close to violating the code of conduct.

(2) Illusions gain a very small amount of a Mesmer’s vitality. This signet and a single trait in inspiration that only gives +20% hp to phantasms are the only ways to increase their hp.

(3) By taking this signet, the Mesmer is giving their self one less utility to:

• cleanse conditions
• stunbreak
• summon more illusions
• stealth
• interrupt
• nuke
• teleport

(4) Given how “easily” Mesmers can summon more illusions (let’s please note that this involves using dodge rolls, utilities, weapon skills, and/or weapon swap), why should you care if the ones we summon are slightly harder to kill

(5) Most people target the class and not the pet … look at Ranger, Mesmer, and Necro.

(6) Ranger pets just got some nice hp/toughness buffs … let’s not complain about the mesmer signet that only received a tooltip change.

It is fairly balanced. Especially since the active actually supports the use of illusions in shattering … which this helps make more possible since it helps keep illusions alive longer.

funny how nobody complained until they placed Text yes text onto the tip xD my goodness people will moan about anything it uses a utility slot end of, i agree with the above

Leuca.5732:

No, I know it was always 200%. I figured it was a bug but apparently Anet thinks that kind of HP on spammable allies that receive your stats is fine.

This fits right into the philosophy given for the long-term Signet changes (of which we saw the first tiny step this patch):

• Powerful passive benefit(*) you want to keep around.
• At the same time, powerful active effect you want, making you lose the passive in the process.

(*): The passive is ~useless right now due to the update bug. We can probably assume it won’t ever get fixed or it would have been already

Sebrent.3625:

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(1) The topic isn’t you guys … it’s signet of illusions and the +200% hp it gives to illusions. Get back on topic and off each other. You’re dangerously close to violating the code of conduct.

(2) Illusions gain a very small amount of a Mesmer’s vitality. This signet and a single trait in inspiration that only gives +20% hp to phantasms are the only ways to increase their hp.

(3) By taking this signet, the Mesmer is giving their self one less utility to:

• cleanse conditions
• stunbreak
• summon more illusions
• stealth
• interrupt
• nuke
• teleport

(4) Given how “easily” Mesmers can summon more illusions (let’s please note that this involves using dodge rolls, utilities, weapon skills, and/or weapon swap), why should you care if the ones we summon are slightly harder to kill

(5) Most people target the class and not the pet … look at Ranger, Mesmer, and Necro.

(6) Ranger pets just got some nice hp/toughness buffs … let’s not complain about the mesmer signet that only received a tooltip change.

It is fairly balanced. Especially since the active actually supports the use of illusions in shattering … which this helps make more possible since it helps keep illusions alive longer.

1. Thank you. Somebody who gets things.

2. I would advocate a 25 or 33% increase from this trait, and extend it to all illusions. Tripling your spammable AI’s HP from a passive seems overpowered to me.

3. Mesmers have an absurd amount of utility even without using their utility slots and the ability to do nothing but run while phantasms kill your target does nothing to circumvent this. Mesmers can do everything you listed without using utility slots and without sacrificing much in the way of traits to accomplish many of them at the same time.

4. Slightly harder to kill and 3x harder to kill are two completely different things. That’s 3x less damage I can be focusing on you assuming I’m smart and pay attention to your illusions. If you tell me to ignore your illusions (phantasms), you’re also forgetting that they do a ridiculous amount of damage once you get the second one going.

5. Most people are not good. Ignoring phantasms is one of the main things that makes people lose against them, but paying attention to them detracts so much from the mesmer that the problem is never-ending once the signet applies (hence why I strongly advocate fixing the application along with a reduction in HP gained.)

6. Ranger pet AI is still garbage and their attacks are still extremely easy to follow/dodge due to telegraphing. The HP increase (the toughness increase was not applied to bursty pets, which are really the only ones rangers take aside from dogs occasionally now, and even dogs were skipped in that department) did not really do much to solve anything.

Carighan.6758:

This fits right into the philosophy given for the long-term Signet changes (of which we saw the first tiny step this patch):

• Powerful passive benefit(*) you want to keep around.
• At the same time, powerful active effect you want, making you lose the passive in the process.

Signet of Illusions (when it applies, please note that I want this to be fixed because it is important to facilitate proper balancing; I do not want mesmers to be screwed over, as I play one myself) arguably has the most powerful passive in the game in comparison to any signet. >200 toughness doesn’t compare, nor does a speed boost, a condition removed every 10 seconds, a little extra regen, >200 power, or even the Warrior’s elite. We already saw a buff to many signets and they continue to pale in comparison to SoI’s passive in terms of overall gain.

(*): The passive is ~useless right now due to the update bug. We can probably assume it won’t ever get fixed or it would have been already

It’s far from useless, even with its jumpy application. However, this is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the 200% value, which is what I want addressed.

I don’t understand why would you even use this signet. I use Signet of Dom. The stun has won so many fights for me it’s unreal.

Leuca.5732:

Sebrent.3625:

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(1) The topic isn’t you guys … it’s signet of illusions and the +200% hp it gives to illusions. Get back on topic and off each other. You’re dangerously close to violating the code of conduct.

(2) Illusions gain a very small amount of a Mesmer’s vitality. This signet and a single trait in inspiration that only gives +20% hp to phantasms are the only ways to increase their hp.

(3) By taking this signet, the Mesmer is giving their self one less utility to:

• cleanse conditions
• stunbreak
• summon more illusions
• stealth
• interrupt
• nuke
• teleport

(4) Given how “easily” Mesmers can summon more illusions (let’s please note that this involves using dodge rolls, utilities, weapon skills, and/or weapon swap), why should you care if the ones we summon are slightly harder to kill

(5) Most people target the class and not the pet … look at Ranger, Mesmer, and Necro.

(6) Ranger pets just got some nice hp/toughness buffs … let’s not complain about the mesmer signet that only received a tooltip change.

It is fairly balanced. Especially since the active actually supports the use of illusions in shattering … which this helps make more possible since it helps keep illusions alive longer.

1. Thank you. Somebody who gets things.

2. I would advocate a 25 or 33% increase from this trait, and extend it to all illusions. Tripling your spammable AI’s HP from a passive seems overpowered to me.

3. Mesmers have an absurd amount of utility even without using their utility slots and the ability to do nothing but run while phantasms kill your target does nothing to circumvent this. Mesmers can do everything you listed without using utility slots and without sacrificing much in the way of traits to accomplish many of them at the same time.

4. Slightly harder to kill and 3x harder to kill are two completely different things. That’s 3x less damage I can be focusing on you assuming I’m smart and pay attention to your illusions. If you tell me to ignore your illusions (phantasms), you’re also forgetting that they do a ridiculous amount of damage once you get the second one going.

5. Most people are not good. Ignoring phantasms is one of the main things that makes people lose against them, but paying attention to them detracts so much from the mesmer that the problem is never-ending once the signet applies (hence why I strongly advocate fixing the application along with a reduction in HP gained.)

6. Ranger pet AI is still garbage and their attacks are still extremely easy to follow/dodge due to telegraphing. The HP increase (the toughness increase was not applied to bursty pets, which are really the only ones rangers take aside from dogs occasionally now, and even dogs were skipped in that department) did not really do much to solve anything.

I appreciate that you think I “get it”, but I’m not sure why you quoted me since we are disagreeing :-p

I don’t think the signet is overpowered. Illusions already have pretty low hp, including phantasms. This allows them to take a few hits before being dropped.

If phantasms are a Mesmer’s form of damage (i.e. phantasm build), you can easily afford to take time to kill them as the Mesmer their self isn’t going to be doing as much damage as they’ve invested so much into their phantasms’ damage.

Phantasms are quite easy to avoid damage from. Please listen to the latest podcast from Mesmerized (the one with SevenMirror). They discuss watching Ranger pets and Mesmer Phantasms and saving your dodges, blocks, etc. for them.

To maybe get you to understand the error of your perspective on the HP boost, consider a signet which gives a +1500% damage boost. You’d say that is ridiculously overpowered, right?

Now assume it gives this boost to the damage done by Clones, traits and conditions applied are unaffected.

Would you still say it’s overpowered? Clones would hit for ~15-80 damage with this depending on Vulnerability stacks. This’d be an effective DPS boost of somewhere between 200 (for Sword clones) and 30-40 (Scepter clones and Staff clones).

The number sounds absolutely ridiculous, but once you check what it affects, it’s meaningless.

As it is without this signet our Clones are ridiculously weak. As soon as you summon them their hit points are super low to start with its like they have one foot in the grave already.

You already mentioned that you know that this signet doesn’t apply immediately. And honestly from my testing it seems that the phantasms receive the effects less often than they get it.

Our damage phantasms also don’t have a huge HP pool. Our iDefender has a pretty ok HP and with this signet and proper activation of it his HP gets to be around 11k. Now if we are the only ones around that is a fairly good boost but since the iDefender takes damage for all allies around it he dies very VERY fast even with this signet if you are with more than one person.

I am surprised how you say Mesmers can accomplish so much without utilities though. If you look through the forums there are tons of discussions of how many of the main builds have issues with conditions. Most shatter builds for instance usually have an issue with them. I think you will find very few people are going to agree that we have an absorb amount of utility without our utility slots.

All and all I guess I totally disagree with you. If you are talking about dueling then maybe you have an argument but GW2 isn’t balanced on 1v1 situations so I am sorry to say that your argument is faulty if you were thinking about duels when you made this thread.

200% once every XX sec, bad design is bad.

Sebrent.3625:

I appreciate that you think I “get it”, but I’m not sure why you quoted me since we are disagreeing :-p

I don’t think the signet is overpowered. Illusions already have pretty low hp, including phantasms. This allows them to take a few hits before being dropped.

If phantasms are a Mesmer’s form of damage (i.e. phantasm build), you can easily afford to take time to kill them as the Mesmer their self isn’t going to be doing as much damage as they’ve invested so much into their phantasms’ damage.

Phantasms are quite easy to avoid damage from. Please listen to the latest podcast from Mesmerized (the one with SevenMirror). They discuss watching Ranger pets and Mesmer Phantasms and saving your dodges, blocks, etc. for them.

I was speaking of your ability to discern the actual topic of the discussion.

Phantasms are easy enough to avoid, and ranger is one of my mains so I’ve gotten used to watching AI in this game, but my point is that it’s 200% more health on top of all the effects they get and can be traited for. What this leads to if you are facing them with anything but an ele (or trap ranger if you’ve gotten used to placing AoE effectively) is an endless cycle of trying to keep up with killing phantasms as they pop up. No decent mesmer is going to sit there and just position himself to get hit after his phantasm dies, and they are sure to have stunbreaks/defensive utilities, making the ‘kill the phantasm and it’s easy street’ argument pretty much invalid if you ask me.

Cempa.5619:

200% once every XX sec, bad design is bad.

My point. If it doesn’t proc, it’s a waste; if it does, you’re getting kitten on if you don’t have really heavy single target burst or aoe with a decent CD

Carighan.6758:

To maybe get you to understand the error of your perspective on the HP boost, consider a signet which gives a +1500% damage boost. You’d say that is ridiculously overpowered, right?

Now assume it gives this boost to the damage done by Clones, traits and conditions applied are unaffected.

Would you still say it’s overpowered? Clones would hit for ~15-80 damage with this depending on Vulnerability stacks. This’d be an effective DPS boost of somewhere between 200 (for Sword clones) and 30-40 (Scepter clones and Staff clones).

The number sounds absolutely ridiculous, but once you check what it affects, it’s meaningless.

I’m curious as to how this is a good comparison to the signet we are discussing. Clone damage has no other modifiers to factor into that kind of equation, whereas illusion health factors in boons and the mesmer’s base stats, e.g. toughness/armor increasing effective health on top of regular numeric max health boosts.

Leuca.5732:

Carighan.6758:

This fits right into the philosophy given for the long-term Signet changes (of which we saw the first tiny step this patch):

• Powerful passive benefit(*) you want to keep around.
• At the same time, powerful active effect you want, making you lose the passive in the process.

Signet of Illusions (when it applies, please note that I want this to be fixed because it is important to facilitate proper balancing; I do not want mesmers to be screwed over, as I play one myself) arguably has the most powerful passive in the game in comparison to any signet. >200 toughness doesn’t compare, nor does a speed boost, a condition removed every 10 seconds, a little extra regen, >200 power, or even the Warrior’s elite. We already saw a buff to many signets and they continue to pale in comparison to SoI’s passive in terms of overall gain.

(*): The passive is ~useless right now due to the update bug. We can probably assume it won’t ever get fixed or it would have been already

It’s far from useless, even with its jumpy application. However, this is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the 200% value, which is what I want addressed.

Wow okay the only Mesmer signet that actually saw a buff in the patch was signet of dom…. And it’s still not that great except for the active. Mesmers take SOI if they want to run something in their illusions line that isn’t illusionary invigoration… in pvp scenarios it takes some work to kill the clones fast in pve not so much so SOI is nice there. And also SOI isn’t a constant 200% increase like the phantasmal fury/retal it triggers once every 10 seconds or so therefore within the first 10 seconds of a Mesmer summoning the illusions you have a window to get em down. This is a moot point for shatter mesmers because they never have illusions out for more than 10 seconds. This is really the last signet that anyone should be griping about for mesmers… Well actually all of our signets aren’t that great when we compare them to other classes healing signets and so on.

Leuca don’t you run ranger as your main? Your 2nd tier for best 1v1 class you want a nerf to phant that badly xD? You realize your more viable than phant in tPvP right?

FYI it doesn’t actually proc when the illusion is summoned if you kill it as it spawns it’ll keep it’s original with traits.

Ok so people that didn’t follow mesmer didnt realize that the tooltip for signet of illusions was bugged and it always gave 200% so it was no problem.

They fix some text on a tooltip and now some people are upset. I don’t even understand this…. non problem.

If you didn’t kill the phantasms before you aren’t killing them now so it makes no difference. The biggest thing signet of illusions does is make idefender good assuming he is summoned when the signet procs otherwise you gave 2 utlility slots 2 take hits of half damage.

Wahhh it takes ~2 hits to kill an illusion. Seriously. I’ve known about this “bug” for a long time.

I run this in my main build, believe it or not and I slot Phantasmal Defender along with the signet to get full effect.

Yup that’s 2 utilities already used to make myself and other illusions a bit tougher. Or I could just switch both utilities out and slot in mirror images for shatter and glamours in WvW. Because lets face it. In WvW, a phantasm mesmer is almost useless. I know, because I play one as my main.

Unless you really think that 3 tough illusionsis more powerful than a stealth curtain

Daishi.6027:

Leuca don’t you run ranger as your main? Your 2nd tier for best 1v1 class you want a nerf to phant that badly xD? You realize your more viable than phant in tPvP right?

FYI it doesn’t actually proc when the illusion is summoned if you kill it as it spawns it’ll keep it’s original with traits.

I think there’s serious problems with ranger design as-is but that’s pretty much irrelevant right now. The reason I’m taking issue with the update to fix the tooltip instead of actually making the skill work well is because it’s either an acknowledgment by Anet that those stats are what they want or it’s an excuse for improving gameplay while not actually changing anything.

Also amused at all the observant people who are coming in still thinking I don’t know it was a tooltip change.