Simplify Mesmer to Ease Balance

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Posted by: RisingPhoenix.3714

RisingPhoenix.3714

Having played my Mesmer for four months now, and having leveled some other classes and played all of them in WvWvW, tPVP and sPVP, I find my Mesmer unique and immensely enjoyable. However, after watching the patches over these months, and reading the unceasing griping by vocal members of the other class communities, I believe the Mesmer’s current traits and skills are needlessly complicated. The complications have become a hindrance for the ANet design team to balance and non-Mesmer players to understand. Therefore I think Anet needs to scrub the Mesmer’s existing ideas and simplify the class as a whole, while aiming to preserve its unique elements.

I think this can only occur if ANet abolishes the shatter mechanics entirely. The shatter mechanic is an unnecessary step towards delivering buffs, DOTs or burst damage that are otherwise delivered from perfectly viable mechanisms that already exist within the class. The design space should be rededicated to the truly unique abilities of the Mesmer class.

An example of this reallocated design space could be to assign the four glamour line skills (portal, veil, feedback and null field) to the shatter abilities’ places. A single new transformation, manipulation, signet, and mantra could replace the glamours in the skill table. This would better allow a player to dedicate their character to one of these paths, while giving all Mesmers a common utility baseline that is unique to the class and distinguishes them from the other classes better than the shatter line.

To continue with the theme of simplification, I think Anet should eliminate the distinction between clone and phantasm. All clones and phantasms should be reduced to the common term that already exists -illusions. ANet should address the long standing discussion of “pet class, or not to pet class” by building on the idea of illusions as pseudo-pets.

An example of these pseudo-pet mechanics is as follows. When in a party, illusions should randomly appear as anyone the character is partied with, including the character, who is in an immediate area around the target. An illusion’s attack form should be derived from the copied party member’s class. Illusions should mimic the player’s motions while remaining focused on their target, dodging when the player dodges, and moving in a random direction as the player moves.

Illusions should remain in play after the target’s death so long as the Mesmer is already in combat. The illusions would only disappear when the combat condition goes away (i.e. trigger when automatic fast healing occurs). A Mesmer calling a target would redirect any existing illusions to that target, thus giving the combat and the illusions’ existence some longevity. Illusions summoned outside of combat would persist for a brief period to give the Mesmer an opportunity to send them after a target.

Each of the specialist phantasm abilities (Berserker, Duelist, etc.) should be rewritten to provide unique buffs with specific trade offs to illusions. For example, Berserker could give fury and quicken to all active illusions, but leave them vulnerable. Mage would give all illusions a random condition damage effect to their attacks, but leave them crippled.

The cumulative effect of these changes should enhance the confusion and misdirection aspects of the class for team play, and largely leave Mesmer’s untouched for solo play (the illusions would simply copy the player by default). It would also have the effect of making illusions more similar to pets, but still different enough that Mesmers do not become light armor Rangers.

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

I stopped reading as soon as you said abolish shattering entirely. This is a base mechanic of the class. Something you may find funny… Alot other people that have alted a mesmer just to learn the mechanics of it have a MUCH easier time fighting the mesmers than the ones who whine and cry on the sPvP threads… Balance is built around player choice/runes/traits/weapons/skills… How about you let Anet fix the SEVERAL bugs in this class and OTHERS before suggesting a complete rework of a classes mechanic system…

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: aaron.7850

aaron.7850

I disagree with ALL of your ideas, you are pretty much asking for a new class that also happens to use clones.

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

After I continued reading you are just suggesting that the other most whined about mesmer traits be put in the shattering place… Hence we will still get whined about.. and then you also suggest that while illusions such as phantasms attack it also delivers a condition to the phantasm as well… Sir I am sorry that is just a reason to not want illusions. This is something that Anet probly couldn’t do at the moment or any time in the next five years seeing as how they still can’t fix several bugs that have existed since launch.

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: Israel.7056

Israel.7056

I like shatters and I don’t like anything you’ve said here.

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Posted by: RisingPhoenix.3714

RisingPhoenix.3714

Why defend shatters though? There are at least three other builds that provide substantial DPS – condition spamming, mantra burst damage, and leaving up phantasms. Why do you need a fourth, especially when each shatter type is really just a duplicate of one of the half-formed ideas represented by the others? Why defend the DPS mechanism that is also the most complicated, even impossible, to balance (i.e. how precisely does blowing up the phantasms after their attacks result in peak damage, versus spamming clones, versus letting opponents kill clones to sustain other DPS)? By defending that element of Mesmers, they have become a target for the PVP communities to whine about endlessly because most of those people don’t get how much of the shatter damage mechanic is driven by player skill.

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Posted by: Alex.9268

Alex.9268

Simplify? no. Many of us really enjoy how complex and unique the class is.

Redone? hell yes. Anet bit off far more than they could chew and now have a class that they do not understand and cannot balance.

In the end though, there are still actual typos in mesmer trait tooltips, so expecting Anet to not only clean up and polish, but redesign everything is obviously not realistic. My guess is that we have to wait for an expansion for any real changes.

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Posted by: Super Goose.1467

Super Goose.1467

You just described why Mesmer is one of the most engaging and imo most fun class in all of GW2 and in all of mmos period. Deciding when to shatter, what shatter to use, weighing the costs vs the benefits of shattering… all of that is what makes the Mesmer the epitome of what GW2 strives to be: a mmo unlike any other, one that involves split-second critical thinking and unparalleled player involvement. Simplifying can be a good idea in mmos but not in this case. I would really question Arena Net if they compromised on their goals just because some players aren’t quite adjusting as quickly to the new standard.

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Posted by: Rhaps.8540

Rhaps.8540

If they managed to balance this..

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_mesmer_skills

…then I don’t think they will have any problems balancing the gw2 mesmer. It’s far far more simple by comparison.

In fact, coming from my gw1 mesmer I want more! Where are my hexes? Where are my spell stealing abilities? Where is my lethal shutdown? That said Gw2 mesmer is one of the few classes that even comes close to reaching the complexity of its gw counterpart.

Seafarer’s Rest – Guild Leader The Deamon Army [TDA]

(edited by Rhaps.8540)

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Posted by: Voodoo Tina.4180

Voodoo Tina.4180

I am not interested in any of these suggestions, thanks.

I enjoy my clones, my phantasms, and my shatters. I use them all, don’t take my toys from me. The time for a game changing revision like that is long gone (during beta) regardless.

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Posted by: Bertrand.3057

Bertrand.3057

I read your post, I like shatters, and I don’t think you’ve thought this through. Obviously, these changes will never happen, but I’ll take the time to address your ideas more substantively.

Consider, first of all, that the glamour skills have the most utility in large fights; by tying class mechanics to these skills, you’ve seriously weakened the mesmer’s ability to build for small fights and therefore be functional in such settings. Nor can you make them more functional for small fights precisely because they are the primary group utilities that the mesmer has.

Next, your idea of how to use illusions in a group fight just doesn’t have any kind of equivalent in the other classes. There is no existing skill that specifically uses the party and skill functions. With the targeting idea, you are either asking for illusions to be controlled like ranger pets, or you are simply complicating rather than simplifying the function of illusions.

You could probably improve the set of suggestions you’ve made, but what it comes down to is that you are more or less designing a new class from the bottom up. You are proposing to change weapon skills, utilities, and core class mechanics, and it follows that traits will have to change. A class overhaul is something that would require extensive testing and fiddling to see if it is even viable, which goes against Anet’s approach to gradual changes.

Your justification is that shatters are too complex for other players to understand, but you’re very much wrong here. You can dodge shatters, you can block/invuln them, you can AoE the clones, you can stealth away from them. In short, you avoid damage from shatters the same way you avoid damage from anything else. They’re not readily replaceable either, as they’re the primary source for daze and confusion, the CC and condition that defines this class.

Finally, there is no particular “ease of balance” issue with this class. Or if there is, it is with group utilities, the one thing you intend not to touch. Addressing burst damage and DOT is as easy as changing numbers.

Talleyrand, Captain and Commander of the Bloody Pirates
Asura on patrol in defense of Gandara and Bessie!
Administrator of http://thisisgandara.com

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Posted by: Delofasht.4231

Delofasht.4231

I think you’ve asked a very interesting question here about both simplification AND balance. Does one really imply the other or otherwise? Is it understanding of a profession as some people believe or some other problems such as User Interface or merely tooltips or even tutorials that should be in the game and are not? All good questions spurned by stating a need for simplification.

I personally don’t think that simplifying the profession would hurt nearly as much as some others might believe, but neither do I think it would really help with the issues people have with Mesmer. In my opinion the easiest solution to make would be to have Shatters instead cause the Illusions up to use an ability with a 1 sec cast time (to allow enemies to time a dodge so it is roughly the same as it is) for the damage ones and .25 cast for Daze (with a small travel time bolt effect, so it too could be dodged if timed well) while remaining instant for Distortion instead of actually destroying the illusions. There are many issues solved by such a change, first the shatter glitch goes away since they aren’t destroyed and can’t be counted twice since you can’t have more than 3 up (they don’t run in to die then so having more than 3 up just wouldn’t happen), and certain traits which are really strong now become a little less strong as well. Deceptive Evasion becomes a little less powerful and encourages an entirely different style of play, Phantasms get stronger by simply not being destroyed, forcing the opponent to destroy them instead, clone death traits get stronger, etc. Things get weaker as well though, psychological warfare for instance, can’t make the enemy afraid of 10 million clones running at them anymore (it’s really only up to about 8 or 9 max using every possible trick and them running away).

It’s at least an approach to fixing the issues, even we don’t like it all, myself included hell I don’t even really like MY idea, but at least it’s an idea and not just a QQ thread or anything like that.

“I’m sorry, my responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.”
- Dr. Alfred Lanning, fictional character of great intellect.

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Posted by: Darnis.4056

Darnis.4056

I don’t understand any of these points,
What possible benefits could deleting a class bring?
You want to turn us into slow necromancers with clones instead of pets? No thanks.

Yes your thread isn’t technically a qqnerfmesmers thread but it is a fantastical rendition of a pseudoreality you dreamt up on some halfbaked notion that you can make balance simpler by making as many ridiculous changes as possible.

Will the Real Pink Puma Please stand up?

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Posted by: lOKI.8152

lOKI.8152

First. I support your idea of illusons not disappearing after opponents dead as long as the player who cast them is in combat mode. But everything else you suggested i cant support.

Moving skills like portal and veil into the shatter slot seems weird for me. Shatter skills are exactly not a duplicate of each other. They all have different applications, though each of them delivers the “on-shatter-boons/conditions”. Mind Wrack is direct damage, but all others are control. Cry of Frustration gives your enemy the choice between a) ignoring the condition and getting damage for every skill usage
b) cleansing the condition c) stop attacking
Two of this options means you just forced your enemy into a reactive playstyle.
Diversion is even better. It stops your enemy from using skills at all.
Distortion grants you up to 3 seconds of invulnerability, allowing you to negate burst, secure a stomp or reach save ground.
I think all these abilities qualify for being called unique class mechanic.

Atm i feel the power a well-played mesmer gives you stands in an appropriate relation to the effort you put into it. I confess I am a supporter of complex classes, but mesmer definitely isnt the most difficult class. It may seem more complex in comparison to the current thief- and warrior metabuilds, but seriously: I think you can expect people to be able to press more than 3-4 keys in a game without overburdening them.

Lvl 80s: Thief, Necro, Engi, Ele, Mesmer, Ranger

“War does not determine who is right – only who is left.”

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Posted by: SteepledHat.1345

SteepledHat.1345

In summation, because people are too lazy to l2p, get rid of everything that makes mesmer mesmer.

Yeah, horrible idea. Stop trying to kill my class.

“Failure to remain calm is the sign of a weak mind.”

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Posted by: LaronX.8079

LaronX.8079

If they managed to balance this..

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_mesmer_skills

…then I don’t think they will have any problems balancing the gw2 mesmer. It’s far far more simple by comparison.

In fact, coming from my gw1 mesmer I want more! Where are my hexes? Where are my spell stealing abilities? Where is my lethal shutdown? That said Gw2 mesmer is one of the few classes that even comes close to reaching the complexity of its gw counterpart.

Wait the manged to balance that? That is new to me . Last time I checked Panic was still OP as kitten XD

Blub.

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Posted by: Rhaps.8540

Rhaps.8540

If they managed to balance this..

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_mesmer_skills

…then I don’t think they will have any problems balancing the gw2 mesmer. It’s far far more simple by comparison.

In fact, coming from my gw1 mesmer I want more! Where are my hexes? Where are my spell stealing abilities? Where is my lethal shutdown? That said Gw2 mesmer is one of the few classes that even comes close to reaching the complexity of its gw counterpart.

Wait the manged to balance that? That is new to me . Last time I checked Panic was still OP as kitten XD

lol you got me there! Aww man I wish we had interrupts like that in this game. Mesmer interrupter used to be fun as hell to play in pvp. Other casters just used to run when they saw you coming.

Seafarer’s Rest – Guild Leader The Deamon Army [TDA]

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Posted by: Hemera.8260

Hemera.8260

I haven’t leveled my mesmer very high yet, as she’s not my main, but I like some of your ideas. I haven’t played her enough to have strong feelings about the shatter mechanic but I have never seen why we need the distinction between clones and phantasms. I also like your ideas about how pseudo pet mechanics could function when the mesmer is in a party. I’m not sure that the mechanic you suggest would be a simplification, but it sounds very fun to play.

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Posted by: Voodoo Tina.4180

Voodoo Tina.4180

The distinction between clones and phantasms gives you more flexibility. Phantasms deal damage but are easier to kill. Clones don’t deal damage (much) but are harder to kill and serve as a distraction.

We wouldn’t want to have only one and not the other. And if they were everything at once – damage dealing distractions that can take a few hits – they would be too good.

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Posted by: Wise.8025

Wise.8025

I read about about half of the first paragraph and stopped. Sorry but no class should be subjected to removal or massive changes just because a vocal minority doesn’t understand how the mechanics work and believe the class is face-roll easy.

Mesmer is far from easy to play well vs good players, it only seems to manage to confuse distracted, bad, and new players.

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Posted by: Zevlik.8109

Zevlik.8109

Wow such hostility for some poor person that just had a suggestion. I wasnt going to post but with all the defensive bullcrap in here I thought I’d say I like where you were going with the idea you have here. However, while I like the idea I dont think that redesigning a class is probably the best of things to do after release unless it’s completely neccessary.

Having said that I think your idea is creative and a decent idea to build on. Don’t let the other posters in here discourage you from offering more suggestions, just keep in mind that not everyone sees things objectively or on the same level.

~ Zev
Dark Covenant (SBI)

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

Wow such hostility for some poor person that just had a suggestion. I wasnt going to post but with all the defensive bullcrap in here I thought I’d say I like where you were going with the idea you have here. However, while I like the idea I dont think that redesigning a class is probably the best of things to do after release unless it’s completely neccessary.

Having said that I think your idea is creative and a decent idea to build on. Don’t let the other posters in here discourage you from offering more suggestions, just keep in mind that not everyone sees things objectively or on the same level.

Well, the hostility is simple. The OP is advocating to create a new mesmer class that can be easy mastered by casuals. Catering to casuals who are unwilling to learn to play is a slippy slope in many games. Mesmer by design is meant to be a complex class that requires quick wit and experience of player to be used effectively. Mesmer is a class that is deceptive, crowd control, support, troll, and many other similar functions. To simplify these mechanical for newbies will easily make this class overpowered since it requires no effort.

(edited by loseridoit.2756)

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Posted by: deltanium.7543

deltanium.7543

Let’s talk semantic for a second: Simplification is essentially the action of reducing the complexity of an action. For instance, 2ˆ3=8 may be simplified as 2*2*2=8. The operation is more detailled and can be performed by a larger number of less educated people AND the end result remains the same. Because none of the aforementioned proposed changes are affecting the complexity of the profession, none of them actually simplifies the mesmer profession.

What is truly affected through these changes is the depth of the profession. Depth may be defined as the number of valid choices a player may do in any given situation. The reduction of depth mamy be refered to as streamlining or reducing valid choices to a number approximating one. In so doing, balancing is a piece of cake since the optimal, dominant or sole strategy will produce a lower variance of result which can be matched with other professions variance of result. However, the result of excessive streamlining is that the game can be played by mashing one button, IE, the game becomes boring.

Depth is a necessary component of games, especially competitive games because this increases the number of possible outcome and a higher skill ceiling and more importantly the power output tangent must increase as the player skill input increases. In order to reward the player with a more aware, wiser and overall better playstyle, the player must gain more power output than the equivalent player skill intput. Since every profession in the game has a certain high level of depth, reducing the mesmer’s will further harm the game because the power output will vary too lightly compared to other professions. The outcome will be such as every player with a certain skill input will automatically defeat mesmer and every player with a lower skill input will automatically lose to a mesmer, notwitstanding the player skill input of the mesmer.

Futhermore, with a lower depth the gameplay between a skilled player and an unskilled player will vary ever so slightly. Because dominant strategies arise, unskilled players will use this dominant strategy with a certain power output, but the skilled player will do the exact same thing and generate an ever so slightly higher power output with intangible such as awareness, timing and a better judgement.

Well… that explanation kinda derailed… Hope this explains why you got negative responds to your suggestions.

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Posted by: Richard Nixon.6573

Richard Nixon.6573

If they managed to balance this..

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_mesmer_skills

…then I don’t think they will have any problems balancing the gw2 mesmer. It’s far far more simple by comparison.

In fact, coming from my gw1 mesmer I want more! Where are my hexes? Where are my spell stealing abilities? Where is my lethal shutdown? That said Gw2 mesmer is one of the few classes that even comes close to reaching the complexity of its gw counterpart.

Wait the manged to balance that? That is new to me . Last time I checked Panic was still OP as kitten XD

OP in PvE or PvP? Because PvE balance meant nothing in gw1 (Remember SF? Ursing? Any of the PvE-only skills?). And in PvP, the counter was to (a) call out the hex to your monk (b) use a hex-removal if you had it or © just space out properly so you dont interrupt your teammates (which you should be spaced out to avoid aoe damage anyways). It had the potential to be devastating, like almost every other elite skill.

Honestly, the only thing “OP” about mesmer after the rework was the insane amount of armor-ignoring damage some skills have/had (and maybe FC + other classes’ elites, but that was a PvE issue, not PvP), but those have mostly been tuned down.

-1-800-GUILD-WAR? They can’t have my ’Brand… I have special eyes.
-Look, look with your special eyes!
-My Dragonbrand!

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Posted by: Xavi.6591

Xavi.6591

I don’t want to play a pet class. Mesmer is not a pet class. Shatters are the basis of the class. Sorry, your ideas are terrible.

Fantasme Bloodwen [R.I.P. Mesmer] | Andi Runi [Warrior] | Bonedoggle [Necro] | Zooerasty [Ranger]
Angry Intent [AI] | Yak’s Bend |

(edited by Xavi.6591)

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Posted by: SteepledHat.1345

SteepledHat.1345

I don’t want to play a pet class. Mesmer is not a pet class. Shatters are the basis of the class. Sorry, your ideas are terrible.

Lol, what this guy said. But I though this thread was dead, who necro’ed it?

“Failure to remain calm is the sign of a weak mind.”

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Posted by: juno.1840

juno.1840

The complexity of Mesmer is what makes it so appealing to many players. It also keeps newbs from flooding to the Mesmer after getting pwned in WvW or PvP.

Personally I enjoy the least played professions (although this means I should really dig Engineer… I’m trying… really!)

Part of me thinks that someone in ANet was thinking “hey, wanna see something funny? Watch this…”

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Posted by: SteepledHat.1345

SteepledHat.1345

I always get the impression that people seem to think mes is easy mode. Not sure why they’d think that. But they do normally say such things while laying on the ground….

“Failure to remain calm is the sign of a weak mind.”

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Posted by: juno.1840

juno.1840

Greatsword can feel like easy mode at times — GS4, dodge, GS2, F1, auto, repeat. But that’s only when I’m playing lazy-mode in PvE.

Sword on the other hand puts the “blur” effect on my fingers as they work the skill buttons on my Logitech G13!

Part of me thinks that someone in ANet was thinking “hey, wanna see something funny? Watch this…”

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Posted by: eqpablon.9072

eqpablon.9072

Why defend shatters though? There are at least three other builds that provide substantial DPS – condition spamming, mantra burst damage, and leaving up phantasms. Why do you need a fourth, especially when each shatter type is really just a duplicate of one of the half-formed ideas represented by the others? Why defend the DPS mechanism that is also the most complicated, even impossible, to balance (i.e. how precisely does blowing up the phantasms after their attacks result in peak damage, versus spamming clones, versus letting opponents kill clones to sustain other DPS)? By defending that element of Mesmers, they have become a target for the PVP communities to whine about endlessly because most of those people don’t get how much of the shatter damage mechanic is driven by player skill.

Grade A trolling…

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Posted by: Snoots.2970

Snoots.2970

I barely read past the first sentence and disagree entirely, The mesmer is the most entertaining class i have played, It’s complexity is what i love so much about it. If they wipe the mesmer in the manner you are suggesting i believe i will just stop playing the game entirely.

Change mesmer.. pfft get out >.<*