At first I saw the torment change, then as I saw the necro changes on dulfy I noticed they squeezed in sort of a nerf so some major traits on PU mesmers. Do you think this is going to make them no longer viable in 1v1?
PU builds will still be very strong in most situations. The main difference is that non-PU condition builds that rely in a large part on clone-deaths are going to suddenly find that they’re in need of more defense due to their offense being hamstrung. They will then tend more towards PU builds as a result. Overall, you’ll end up with more PU mesmers than before.
Eh. My own theory is you’d probably end up with about the same number. After all, there are some options coming that will help out interrupt and mantra specs. Working IE would help any Staff Mes, so standard condi or condi-shatter might get used a little more often.
Malegryne (Sylvari Mesmer), Lannka (Asura Thief) – Ferguson’s Crossing: [PRD/BRB/OMFG]
Other 80s: Any but Warrior
First, the sun and moon will continue to rise, the tides will go in and out, the seasons will continue to change, and Mesmers will get on with it or go have coffee instead.
Yes, ofc, the whole spec is a bit meh because it’s entirely about getting attacked 1v1. But that’s the same right now.
It’s actually getting a lot of help in that last department from both the Scepter changes, and the fact that you’re highly likely to trait IE instead of the usual 4pts in Domination. This way you can top 1800+ Condie damage in sPvP (w/SoD) w/o Might, which gives you 780+ damage burns.
Runners will have it slightly harder with the Torment from Scepter AA & Clones, and overall you’re not as reliant on the clunky/situational Scepter #2 block to get decent damage output. Both the Staff and Scepter will be able to do significant damage on their own, without relying on Clone deaths.
My guess is, despite the nerfs, it will still be stronger 1v1 then the current PU, and most likely also a tad stronger still in 1v2 or even 1v3. Although, survivability will suffer quite a bit, so 1v3 is a bit harder to judge until we play the changes.
Runners will have it slightly harder with the Torment from Scepter AA & Clones, and overall you’re not as reliant on the clunky/situational Scepter #2 block to get decent damage output. Both the Staff and Scepter will be able to do significant damage on their own, without relying on Clone deaths.
My guess is, despite the nerfs, it will still be stronger 1v1 then the current PU, and most likely also a tad stronger still in 1v2 or even 1v3. Although, survivability will suffer quite a bit, so 1v3 is a bit harder to judge until we play the changes.
The torment damage is going to be far less impactful then all the fear mongering on the forums would have you believe. Given a skillful opponent, the block will hardly land and our clones will die faster since now the on-death effects are avoidable.
From people that have allegedly tested this on the ANet server, 5-6 stacks is about what you will see – giving the benefit of the doubt to the mesmer let’s put that at 8 stacks. The damage output of those stacks according to the wiki formula is 685 dps standing or 951 dps moving, with 1430 condi dmg (max i could pull together in mists to test).
While not insignificant, a condi necro can do almost double that with scepter 1&2 only. I think the on-death changes are going to hurt far more than the torment will make up for, but again, that’s assuming everything stays as is on paper. I guess it will depend on IE to make up the remaining gap, but again, that will still be reliant on clones being able to withstand a sneeze in their general direction.
We will mostly likely still have IE and Warden bugs and be nerfed (from the initial skill bar) further within 24 hours of the patch landing, as per the last two years of mesmer experience.
I think people are exaggerating the PU nerf. It’s really not that bad. You don’t get aegis as often, but you still maintain very high regen/protection up-time. And the occasional swiftness boosts mesmer mobility slightly.
The DD nerf will probably be worse, but I still think people are exaggerating. Not many will waste dodges/blocks/invulns on clone deaths when there are more important attacks to avoid. It’ll make fighting thieves harder (with their blind on stealth), but it won’t change much against other classes.
Can we stop saying Swiftness on PU helps Mesmer mobility? I’m seeing multiple Mesmers write that. What? Are we going to run around popping all of our lengthy to cooldown skills that grants Stealth, just to gain Swiftness as we run around.. only to be caught off guard with several skills on our bar not being ready to be used? Swiftness, in the PU rotation is pointless. It won’t get you far enough to make it more viable as a escape mechanic, and is hardly a boon (no pun intended) to in-combat gameplay. The absolutely idiotic mechanic of getting slowed from being in combat takes care of that.
Please stop saying it helps our mobility, or they’ll probably pat themselves on the back as if they’ve magically resolved the issue of Mesmer’s lacking severely in actually just that, mobility, being nearly forced to take Rune sets such as Traveler’s to keep up even remotely with others. Outside of the niche structured mode anyways.
But on topic; PU will be PU, the builds remains the same, it’s not going to be the end of the world that they’ve added Swiftness and Might to the rotation. I was expecting a harsher kind of nerf than to add Boons to the rotation.
They’ll keep nerfing and nerfing it and other traits it uses until they realise the torment on scepter was the problem and nerf that without touching any of the traits they made useless or broke in its wake.
Yes, ofc, the whole spec is a bit meh because it’s entirely about getting attacked 1v1. But that’s the same right now.
It’s actually getting a lot of help in that last department from both the Scepter changes, and the fact that you’re highly likely to trait IE instead of the usual 4pts in Domination. This way you can top 1800+ Condie damage in sPvP (w/SoD) w/o Might, which gives you 780+ damage burns.
Runners will have it slightly harder with the Torment from Scepter AA & Clones, and overall you’re not as reliant on the clunky/situational Scepter #2 block to get decent damage output. Both the Staff and Scepter will be able to do significant damage on their own, without relying on Clone deaths.
My guess is, despite the nerfs, it will still be stronger 1v1 then the current PU, and most likely also a tad stronger still in 1v2 or even 1v3. Although, survivability will suffer quite a bit, so 1v3 is a bit harder to judge until we play the changes.
While that was a good assessment you forgot to take into consideration all the confusion, bleeding etc… that they will also be able to put up.
Really though its not the amount of condition damage a mesmer can put up its the fact they will be able to stack it so fast & reapply it quickly in the event you manage to cleanse it.
That combined with the fact a mesmer can stealth and hide makes them a real pain to deal with.
Really instead of letting clones apply torment with scepter AA #1 they should have just let the #2 & #3 AA apply it for longer duration then what it will after patch.
This would allow you to build up as much or possibly more torment then what you could with clones applying a short duration one.
But it would take slightly longer to build up meaning that cleanses wouldn’t be useless.
Yes, ofc, the whole spec is a bit meh because it’s entirely about getting attacked 1v1. But that’s the same right now.
It’s actually getting a lot of help in that last department from both the Scepter changes, and the fact that you’re highly likely to trait IE instead of the usual 4pts in Domination. This way you can top 1800+ Condie damage in sPvP (w/SoD) w/o Might, which gives you 780+ damage burns.
Runners will have it slightly harder with the Torment from Scepter AA & Clones, and overall you’re not as reliant on the clunky/situational Scepter #2 block to get decent damage output. Both the Staff and Scepter will be able to do significant damage on their own, without relying on Clone deaths.
My guess is, despite the nerfs, it will still be stronger 1v1 then the current PU, and most likely also a tad stronger still in 1v2 or even 1v3. Although, survivability will suffer quite a bit, so 1v3 is a bit harder to judge until we play the changes.
While that was a good assessment you forgot to take into consideration all the confusion, bleeding etc… that they will also be able to put up.
Really though its not the amount of condition damage a mesmer can put up its the fact they will be able to stack it so fast & reapply it quickly in the event you manage to cleanse it.
That combined with the fact a mesmer can stealth and hide makes them a real pain to deal with.
Really instead of letting clones apply torment with scepter AA #1 they should have just let the #2 & #3 AA apply it for longer duration then what it will after patch.
This would allow you to build up as much or possibly more torment then what you could with clones applying a short duration one.
But it would take slightly longer to build up meaning that cleanses wouldn’t be useless.
Problem is with Perplexity runes and condition extension – having torment on scepter skill 2 and 3 would be so OP.
This is just a way to make the scepter another viable weapon for mesmers. So many use GS and swords only.
Yes, ofc, the whole spec is a bit meh because it’s entirely about getting attacked 1v1. But that’s the same right now.
It’s actually getting a lot of help in that last department from both the Scepter changes, and the fact that you’re highly likely to trait IE instead of the usual 4pts in Domination. This way you can top 1800+ Condie damage in sPvP (w/SoD) w/o Might, which gives you 780+ damage burns.
Runners will have it slightly harder with the Torment from Scepter AA & Clones, and overall you’re not as reliant on the clunky/situational Scepter #2 block to get decent damage output. Both the Staff and Scepter will be able to do significant damage on their own, without relying on Clone deaths.
My guess is, despite the nerfs, it will still be stronger 1v1 then the current PU, and most likely also a tad stronger still in 1v2 or even 1v3. Although, survivability will suffer quite a bit, so 1v3 is a bit harder to judge until we play the changes.
While that was a good assessment you forgot to take into consideration all the confusion, bleeding etc… that they will also be able to put up.
Really though its not the amount of condition damage a mesmer can put up its the fact they will be able to stack it so fast & reapply it quickly in the event you manage to cleanse it.
That combined with the fact a mesmer can stealth and hide makes them a real pain to deal with.
Really instead of letting clones apply torment with scepter AA #1 they should have just let the #2 & #3 AA apply it for longer duration then what it will after patch.
This would allow you to build up as much or possibly more torment then what you could with clones applying a short duration one.
But it would take slightly longer to build up meaning that cleanses wouldn’t be useless.
Problem is with Perplexity runes and condition extension – having torment on scepter skill 2 and 3 would be so OP.
This is just a way to make the scepter another viable weapon for mesmers. So many use GS and swords only.
Torment is already on scepter 2 and confusion is on scepter 3.
So……. Now torment on scepter AA…..
You see why this is cancer?
Slot Earth Sigil with either Torment or Doom Sigil and that person’s dead no matter what. Especially with poison…
That’s only for roaming as far as WvW is concerned.
Yes, ofc, the whole spec is a bit meh because it’s entirely about getting attacked 1v1. But that’s the same right now.
It’s actually getting a lot of help in that last department from both the Scepter changes, and the fact that you’re highly likely to trait IE instead of the usual 4pts in Domination. This way you can top 1800+ Condie damage in sPvP (w/SoD) w/o Might, which gives you 780+ damage burns.
Runners will have it slightly harder with the Torment from Scepter AA & Clones, and overall you’re not as reliant on the clunky/situational Scepter #2 block to get decent damage output. Both the Staff and Scepter will be able to do significant damage on their own, without relying on Clone deaths.
My guess is, despite the nerfs, it will still be stronger 1v1 then the current PU, and most likely also a tad stronger still in 1v2 or even 1v3. Although, survivability will suffer quite a bit, so 1v3 is a bit harder to judge until we play the changes.
While that was a good assessment you forgot to take into consideration all the confusion, bleeding etc… that they will also be able to put up.
Really though its not the amount of condition damage a mesmer can put up its the fact they will be able to stack it so fast & reapply it quickly in the event you manage to cleanse it.
That combined with the fact a mesmer can stealth and hide makes them a real pain to deal with.
Really instead of letting clones apply torment with scepter AA #1 they should have just let the #2 & #3 AA apply it for longer duration then what it will after patch.
This would allow you to build up as much or possibly more torment then what you could with clones applying a short duration one.
But it would take slightly longer to build up meaning that cleanses wouldn’t be useless.
Problem is with Perplexity runes and condition extension – having torment on scepter skill 2 and 3 would be so OP.
This is just a way to make the scepter another viable weapon for mesmers. So many use GS and swords only.
Either you didn’t understand I said AA (the auto attack chain) or you don’t get the notice that after the patch there will be torment on the scepter AA skills #1, #2 & #3 + clones will apply it.
By shifting the torment to only scepter AA attacks #2 & #3 but increasing their length you accomplish 3 things
1: Clones will no longer apply it with their auto attacks
2: It takes a bit more time to stack up meaning that cleanses will matter a bit more (having all 3 apply it + clones will ensure you can restack it & other conditions extremely quickly which makes it too powerful for PvP)
3: Ensures that while you cannot stack it up quite as quickly your overall damage potential is the same (or possibly more) because said stacks last longer.
1) This would make the Scepter Clones completely useless, just as they are now, except for kittenter fodder. This would completely defeat the purpose of improving the Scepter, which even with these changes will still greatly suffer from the slow projectile speed and ease of simply avoiding the attacks by moving.
2) Again, the relatively slow AA attack cycle, coupled with the slow slow projectile speed already makes the rate of application rather slow. The point of the change is to improve the Scepter as a whole, not just the AA. Currently it has the worst clones by far, and is a terrible weapon all around.
condi pu scepter/torch staff.. is such a bad spec that it is pretty much useless in every aspect of game. the place it actually shines is vs very bad people in 1v1.
it will be a tiny bit less useless with torment on auto attack.. but in reality.. it will still be a waste of a slot in any game.
the only point i have for saying pu isnt as great as people may think…. keep youur same exact spec and take off the pu trait. see if you die all the time or the spec plays the same without the trait..
if you can play the same with the trait on and off… you are riding the bike with training wheels even when you do not need them anymore. dont leave the training wheels on just as a form of comfort.. you can move that trait to something else and upgrade your build.
you understand that that is the basis of half of the mesmer abilitys.. on death.. you have a choice of 3 things happening in a perfect world you want one or 2 of those things happening more then the third.. same thing with chaotic interuption.. boon signet. staff auto attack. bountiful interuption, chaos armor..
they all have “bad rolls” for your situation.. or one thing that would benefit you more then the other choices.
you understand that that is the basis of half of the mesmer abilitys.. on death.. you have a choice of 3 things happening in a perfect world you want one or 2 of those things happening more then the third.. same thing with chaotic interuption.. boon signet. staff auto attack. bountiful interuption, chaos armor..
they all have “bad rolls” for your situation.. or one thing that would benefit you more then the other choices.
BI always gives you might, and then another random boon. This is fine design.
Chaos armor gives swiftness, regen, or prot. These are all defensive boons, this is fine design.
The passive on SoI is so weak it’s not even worth mentioning.
CI always roots, and then applies another offensive condition. This is fine.
Staff autoattack and debilitating dissipation are the other two random abilities that are poor design. Staff has 2 damage conditions and then vuln. This is bad RNG. Same thing with DD, it has a damage condition, a defense condition…and vuln. Again, bad RNG.
The fact that poorly designed skills exist in the game is not an excuse to put MORE poorly design skills in.
i agree with you there.. but complaining about the randomness of pu without taking into account that is almost a mechanic of mesmers is not right imo.. if we are talking about changing the whole theme of randomness because its a bad design i can go for that..
i agree with you there.. but complaining about the randomness of pu without taking into account that is almost a mechanic of mesmers is not right imo.. if we are talking about changing the whole theme of randomness because its a bad design i can go for that..
It’s not a problem of randomness. There’s good random and bad random. Good random is like chaos armor. You’ve got a range of effects, but they all have the same theme. Bad random is staff auto. You’ve got a range of effects, 2 of which make sense and the last is completely out of the blue.
To me DD and staff AA are hybrid I’m with those but PU nah you only chose it for sustain unless might always happen when you leave stealth and is not part of the in stealth boons.
Just like when you interrupt always might then random but at least you really know the purpose of what you are going to get.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140 The Dhuumfire thread
The sole purpose of the change was to nerf PU, not change its flavor in any coherent way. They added boons to the pool it chooses from strictly to reduce its defensive effectiveness. As such it makes no sense to complain about the new boons it gives, as all they cared about was those boons not being protection, aegis or regen.
The sole purpose of the change was to nerf PU, not change its flavor in any coherent way. They added boons to the pool it chooses from strictly to reduce its defensive effectiveness. As such it makes no sense to complain about the new boons it gives, as all they cared about was those boons not being protection, aegis or regen.
Not a good reason to have crappy might at least don’t make the boon useless it’s probably 1 stack with base 3 sec….
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140 The Dhuumfire thread
Just curious and a slightly off-topic. If we want to add damaging RNG into staff auto and DD to replace vulnerability, what would it be? I think DD can have burn (with shorter duration) but how about staff auto?
Anyways I totally agree the defensive PU trait shouldn’t have an offensive boon like might. If they just want to dilute PU effectiveness then put retaliation instead, retaliation is only most useful in zerg situations and PU is not exactly the best in zerg. Vigor may not be an option though since ANet is trying to reduce vigor across many professions (mesmer included).
Just curious and a slightly off-topic. If we want to add damaging RNG into staff auto and DD to replace vulnerability, what would it be? I think DD can have burn (with shorter duration) but how about staff auto?
Anyways I totally agree the defensive PU trait shouldn’t have an offensive boon like might. If they just want to dilute PU effectiveness then put retaliation instead, retaliation is only most useful in zerg situations and PU is not exactly the best in zerg. Vigor may not be an option though since ANet is trying to reduce vigor across many professions (mesmer included).
I don’t exactly have the link, its quite a while ago. But they implied guardian and mesmer has too long vigor so they change vigor on crit trait to half time vigor (doubling the CD or halving the vigor duration, can’t exactly remember which).
I don’t exactly have the link, its quite a while ago. But they implied guardian and mesmer has too long vigor so they change vigor on crit trait to half time vigor (doubling the CD or halving the vigor duration, can’t exactly remember which).
Doubled the CD. I know cause my guard was very disappointed.
On the note of Vigor, both as Guardians and Mesmers we were able to maintain a 100% upkeep of the Boon, without too much difficulty. I guess it was a warranted balance change.
I haven’t used PU since December…until last night. It was amazingly strong. As predicted, it was horrible at capping points in 1v1s and also has a severe lack of team utility.
It’s strong suit is a battle of attrition. Longer it goes, the more likely you are to win. Also, you never die. I know I’ve always been a PU shamer, hence why I call it “PU…ssy” (I know, how creative and awful of me as a Mesmer user), but now I can’t help but think of this vine every time I own someone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GHy63tsop0
I have three Mesmers (lockdown/dps, support, condition). Since the new patch, I feel like all non-PU condition builds have been nerfed, and I don’t see MtD being very effective imho. Sigh, I guess I’ll just join the crowd and make ChoKawaii a PU condition Mesmer for now. :/
Should also know stealth was nerfed or “made consistent” with the other stealth in the game…
Mesmer stealth didn’t stack but you could use over revealed status. Saved me many times but now we have the same stealth as a thief… It stacks but can’t stealth while revealed.
