80 Necromancer (IRNY), 80 Guardian (IRNY)
GW2: it’s like DAoC, but for the WoW crowd.
(edited by Taldren.7523)
Please allow partially used Mantras to regenerate back to full charges out of combat. It is frustrating as hell to use 2 of my 3 charges during a fight and then when out of combat have to burn the last one, wait the cooldown, and then recharge the mantra.
(edited by Taldren.7523)
That’s the point of it. Mantra(as it appears to me) are the type of skills that allow you to gain better advantage by being able to prepare them before the fight. As a tradeoff you must suffer from a 2 sec self-stun if you use it unwisely during the fight. I don’t think they would make it automatically rechargeable as that would break its penalty. It might be more possible to ask for “more charges”. 2 just doesn’t cut it even with the pre-fight advantage.
You missed the point. It is not during the fight I am talking about … its after. As in you finish the fight with 1 charge of your mantra left and then to get back to full power you need to burn the remaining charges, wait the cooldown, and recast.
I am in no way suggesting that they should regenerate in combat. I am saying that if you still have charges out of combat that it should regenerate back to full charges without the need waste them.
Agreed, it would just be a nuisance saver, not anything that really makes them more powerful. No different than your health regenerating between fights.
You missed the point. It is not during the fight I am talking about … its after. As in you finish the fight with 1 charge of your mantra left and then to get back to full power you need to burn the remaining charges, wait the cooldown, and recast.
I am in no way suggesting that they should regenerate in combat. I am saying that if you still have charges out of combat that it should regenerate back to full charges without the need waste them.
I don’t think I missed the point. What you are suggesting is equivalent to asking for a direct reduction in CD for mantras. Otherwise how would you justify it? say, if a mantra has 16 second CD, you use 1 out of 2 charge. How long do you think it’s gonna take to recharge? anything below 16 is asking for a buff... and a massive one… to the mantra. Taking 16 seconds to recharge is also pointless because that is just what the trait CD is. It also takes away the have-to-prepare-in-advance mechanic because you don’t have to put any thought into it since you have it automatically recharges.
Should I use them all in one fight? Should I reset everything and avoid fighting for 16 seconds til I’m ready again? or should I just leave the charges at 2/3 just in case some hostile enemies pop up between recharge?
It’s part of the mechanic. At least for now.
(edited by DavyMcB.1603)
The only thing that matters is during combat. Out of combat ‘buffs’ can be infinite for all anybody cares. You can be a god out of combat and it wouldn’t matter if you were a 90 year old quadriplegic in combat.
I often use and recharge my Mantra’s in combat (that is what I use stealth for) … the thing that gets under my skin is the wasted time out of combat of having to burn charges just to get them all back up to full. If that is a buff, so be it. No one cares because it is out of combat.
I notice you don’t complain about the free heal we get when out of combat … or is that overpowered too? Afterall, it is basically your heal ability with 100% cooldown reduction. Talk about a massive BUFF!
(edited by Taldren.7523)
Its fairly easy to get out of combat during a fight, but still be close by to re-engage. The “regeneration time” would have to be so long to make it pretty much the same as the cooldown + recharge, at least.
Its fairly easy to get out of combat during a fight, but still be close by to re-engage. The “regeneration time” would have to be so long to make it pretty much the same as the cooldown + recharge, at least.
I’d be good with something like that.
It’s really only a quality of life issue, but it would get rid of the tediousness of having to recharge back to full count, out of combat.
Mantra’s just aren’t worth the effort of using in my opinion. Sure the damage one was great while leveling as I had time between groups of mobs to cast it again. Though, when you’re fighting groups in WvW or solo, it’s 2 seconds~ you’re left getting beat on while you charge something that’s not going to make a huge difference.
Mantra’s just aren’t worth the effort of using in my opinion. Sure the damage one was great while leveling as I had time between groups of mobs to cast it again. Though, when you’re fighting groups in WvW or solo, it’s 2 seconds~ you’re left getting beat on while you charge something that’s not going to make a huge difference.
Just recharge them in stealth. The 30/30/0/10/0 build is actually really good and is about to get better next patch. I normally hit for 3k with MoPain and my Greatsword auto attacks. My Blurred Frenzy often hits 6k. I take MoRes, MoRec, MoPain, and Decoy. I might sometimes swap MoPain for Stability or Daze depending on my group makeup.
This is like “oh I used time warp in combat, now I’m out of combat and so I wish that my CD resets”. Extreme example but ye – kinda this.
What would make sense is to let mantra charge themselves passive over time to a maximum of 2 (3) stacks at the same time. Like every 2 sec the mantra of pain and ever 10 sec one of the others. Heal ever 5-10~
Once you get out of combat change the mantra for a different skill then put it back.
This is like “oh I used time warp in combat, now I’m out of combat and so I wish that my CD resets”. Extreme example but ye – kinda this.
What would make sense is to let mantra charge themselves passive over time to a maximum of 2 (3) stacks at the same time. Like every 2 sec the mantra of pain and ever 10 sec one of the others. Heal ever 5-10~
I is nothing like that at all. You don’t have to discharge multiple time warps (waiting a cooldown between each charge) and then wait the cooldown of the abilitiy to cast it again to bring it back to full power.
You can clearly spot those non-mantra users who don’t even understand the issue or what the OP is suggesting.
having a single charge left in mantras has always been the biggest issue on them. Not being weak or long charge (eve the 4s before). Not that they weren’t AoE, but that once you’re finished with the fight you have to initiate a full CD + cast to get the charge back.
I’d prefer a “1 charge” system over the current. The “3 charge” trait would need to be redone, but that’s it.
To compare it with timewarp. Imagine you’d be finished with timewarp. You used it sucessfully in the fight and killed the opponent. And then after it you need to recast timewarp and making it go in full CD again.
It’s not a “reset CD to zero when ooC” but “don’t reset CD to 100% after ooC”.
This is like “oh I used time warp in combat, now I’m out of combat and so I wish that my CD resets”. Extreme example but ye – kinda this.
What would make sense is to let mantra charge themselves passive over time to a maximum of 2 (3) stacks at the same time. Like every 2 sec the mantra of pain and ever 10 sec one of the others. Heal ever 5-10~
I is nothing like that at all. You don’t have to discharge multiple time warps (waiting a cooldown between each charge) and then wait the cooldown of the abilitiy to cast it again to bring it back to full power.
The point is that there is a CD for a reason, thats how mantras shall work. A normal skill for example does its effect and goes on cd, mantras go on a higher cd compared to the effect but can be used multiple times in a row. To let them charge themselves while not in combat would simply be a huge cdr buff.
A CD for a skill that have it´s full power after finishing the CD yes.
But a Mantra with 1 or 2 stacks is not at full power. U have to burn the charges (and waiting for a CD per Charge even to do this, PER mantra).
And after this (already longer time, then another skill without charges) again to activate it.
In combat there is a CD, for a good reason.
If u´re not in combat 1 stack per 5 (or 10) seconds would be much better.
And like Fox said, u can change it already faster. Just switch the skills ooc and pick the mantra again…so there is no reason to say “this is working as intended and ok or balanced”.
Each time u´re out of combat, any other skill is recharging. Mantras not, u have to burn them, and then to wait for the CD to charge them again…rly bad design.
They go on CD when you change them. All your skill really recharge when you’re out of combat? Wow I really should spam my TW more. Seriously, if you say a skill that hasn’t used it’s full power should recharge it’s the same as if you would use a TW and if all enemies die within 5 sec the other 50% of your TW hasn’t been used for it’s “full power” therefore it should have just 50% cd? Whut?
I think an in-between solution should be offered. I think if the charges just regenerated on their own post-combat, you’d lose some of the flavor of Mantras as skills. At the same time it is definitely an issue that you have to waste leftover charges, go through the CD, and then have to recast it.
So, proposed solution: Using a mantra out of combat recasts/recharges it. It retains the flavor of a mantra being this very planned, pre-meditated skill while not punishing the people who were canny enough to not fully need it.
This would be ok (as in, doesn’t change balance) iff the timer until they recharged is roughly the CD of the Mantra itself.
Preferably, reduce them to 1 charge and make it stronger again.
Reduce them to 1 charge and make them stronger? So it would be a normal skill wich has to be charged – seems legit.
Reduce them to 1 charge and make them stronger? So it would be a normal skill wich has to be charged – seems legit.
isn’t that the definition of mantras ?
prepared spells with great effect which can be used in midcombat ?
It’s been said before. Reducing it to a single charge system would just kill this (main) issue without drawbacks. CDs, casttimes, effects and harmonious mantras would need to be updated.
It’s also fix the “harmonious mantras reduces healing per second” issue.
Reducing them to 1 charge would greatly reduce their utility in builds that use them for healing.
One problem I see with them is that the trait that increases them to 3 per charge is very useful but in a completely different place than the one that lets them heal.
Reducing them to 1 charge would greatly reduce their utility in builds that use them for healing.
One problem I see with them is that the trait that increases them to 3 per charge is very useful but in a completely different place than the one that lets them heal.
reducing it to a single heal with the double amount of healing wouldn’t make it so different.
And putting traits into different lines means you should get them together.
I want to see you using two grandmaster traits of the same line together …
If you’d make all mantra related traits (5) into a single line you could only ever use 3 of them at once.
reducing it to a single heal with the double amount of healing wouldn’t make it so different.
It would for me. I like the multiple charges as I can space heals out more. And you may be forgetting about centaur runes.
I’d like to see more charges, and more traits to have things happen when mantras are charged or used. Reducing the number of charges just makes them like really slow regular skills.
And putting traits into different lines means you should get them together.
I want to see you using two grandmaster traits of the same line together …
If you’d make all mantra related traits (5) into a single line you could only ever use 3 of them at once.
It may just be my lack of experience, but I ended up dropping mantras entirely because it wasn’t worth the sacrifices in the build to get what I needed for them to work.
After all, Mantras used to be single-charge and ~2x the strength.
It was changed because it was too weak, but this was before charge-time was brought down. It was also done to nerf Harmonious Mantras (which is very very strong even now that it’s +50% charges instead of +100%). But this could be done in another way.
In the end, Mantras trade staying power for frontloading power. They are instant, in return for having a relatively lengthy recharge cast.
So what I would do:
Instead of just doubling their effect, I’d probably mix CD reduction into it.
Though it’s not the same solution, I posted something like this a long time back as a suggestion that the Mesmer community didn’t seem to get behind
REPOST OF SUGGESTION
How would the community feel if mantra’s worked like almost like Initiative? I’ll explain it a little without including any traits for it.
Mantra of Recovery has a ten second recharge time and a two charge limit. With this, every ten seconds you would gain one charge of MoR passively. This would stack up to two times, with the normal limit. If you already have two charges it wouldn’t passively recharge till you used one charge.
This would allow you to keep Mantra’s up and not feel like you have to expend them all at once then spend the next 9 seconds stopping all DPS, all healing and the sort to keep up maximum effectiveness.
The only problem I see is
Protected Mantras – Increases armor while casting mantras.
Unless you get a buff to armor for “X” seconds" every time you expend a charge. It’s just a thought but how would the community feel about it?
Though it’s not the same solution, I posted something like this a long time back as a suggestion that the Mesmer community didn’t seem to get behind
REPOST OF SUGGESTION
How would the community feel if mantra’s worked like almost like Initiative? I’ll explain it a little without including any traits for it.
Mantra of Recovery has a ten second recharge time and a two charge limit. With this, every ten seconds you would gain one charge of MoR passively. This would stack up to two times, with the normal limit. If you already have two charges it wouldn’t passively recharge till you used one charge.
This would allow you to keep Mantra’s up and not feel like you have to expend them all at once then spend the next 9 seconds stopping all DPS, all healing and the sort to keep up maximum effectiveness.
The only problem I see is
Protected Mantras – Increases armor while casting mantras.
Unless you get a buff to armor for “X” seconds" every time you expend a charge. It’s just a thought but how would the community feel about it?
I agree with the general thinking of your proposal. There may be some details that need to be thought out further as there might be some unintended consequences, but in general it addresses the main problem that Mantra has.
I run the Mindcrush setup with the healing and interrupt Mantras and it is a major disadvantage when you come out of a fight with one interrupt left on your Mantra, then having to use it and wait 20+ seconds before you can charge it again. During this period, you’re left very vulnerable. Your solution will largely address this.
I agree it need ironed out, but it’s a rough draft idea. Whenever I leave a fight with a charge on something the next 5-8 seconds are
Select Mantra-> Change Utility
Swap Back
Recast Mantra
Next fight
That said aside from the what I feel a QOL/Ease of Use change to mantras, I can’t help but think giving an slight mummered audio would give a fun little tidbit as a bonus. When your character is fighting they’re consistently (theme/lore) chanting their mantra to recharge it and keep the use of it.
(edited by KeyLimPi.9031)
I like the idea with mantras – the gameplay in finding the right time to use up and recharge mantras.
For me the biggest issue with mantra’s is the usability.
One that I cannot recharge a mantra if there are any charges left. I would imagine it would be simple to fix this.
The other is discharging of mantras when you go under water, waypoint, switch maps. And then I would need to spend severals seconds per mantra to recharge them? No thanks. Again a simple thing to fix I would imagine.
REPOST OF SUGGESTION
How would the community feel if mantra’s worked like almost like Initiative?
If the mantras did recharge automatically during combat the opponents would have no chance to interrupt me. That would mean watering down half of the gameplay.
Please allow partially used Mantras to regenerate back to full charges out of combat.
I would like this. And I would go as far as automatically recharging all your equipped mantras when out of combat – even the empty ones. It would take away the heavy maintenance feel of mantras, but still retain the in-combat gameplay.
Of course – as someone already pointed out – the automatic regeneration must be restricted by the cooldowns.
Still think my OP is the easiest way to go … but if we are now diving into a redesign …
Mantras:
1. Mantra’s now go off when you release the button rather than when pressed.
2. Mantra’s are reduced to a single charge and will regenerate at a rate of 1 charge every X seconds.
3. Mantra’s charge up when pressed. The longer you hold the button the more powerful the Mantra is up to a max of 4 seconds.
Restorative Mantras: While channeling a mantra you will heal nearby allies for X every Y seconds of channeling.
Empowering Mantras: For every mantra you have slotted, gain 5% more Critical Damage.
Mantra Mastery: Decreases the time to recharge a mantra by X%
Protected Mantras: While channeling a mantra you gain X toughness.
Harmonious Mantras: Increases the maximum charges of a Mantra by 1.
^
Combining the suggestions “single charge” and “auto-recharge” is the most useless ever. It makes mantra pretty much the same as every other spells.
Also, making mantras channel-time based is also a VERY risky suggestion. The main use of mantras is, that you can use them any time; while downed, while reviving, while attacking. Your suggestion(s) just ditch everything the mantras stand for.
Another possible suggestion I thought of:
As I said before, auto-recharge is either like a cooldown or like thief’s initiative. It’d be pretty powerful with multiple mantras since you’d auto-charge them all at once.
So my suggestion is to unify all mantra charges. To separate the “charging” from “using charges”, I thought of adding a new class mechanic bound to [F5]. When pressed a regular mantra charging is casted creating 1~3 charges – probably even channeled. This class skill would have same casttime as currently and 3~5s cooldown. (Making it a “channels all charges would make it difficult”.)
Now you’d have “mantra charges” instead of “healing mantra charges”. Any mantra consumes those charges, is still instant, but has a bigger cooldown (to compensate the higher number of collaborative charges). As example, I’d use healing mantra with 10s CD and 1s chargeCD; using the average would result in a new 5.5s chargeCD.
The maximum amount of charges is based on the equipped mantras (as currently).
Advantages:
Disadvantages:
^ That would be a big hit to Mantra builds and clobber the people you are trying to help.
If you run 4 Mantra’s you have anywhere from 8 to 12 charges available for one … not 2 to 3. I normally have to hit my heal -and- my cleanse mantra to effectively remove condition from me during play. If there was a cooldown between uses of each mantra it would do nothing but get me killed.
I do like the idea of charging fully charged mantras just to spam mantra healing to everyone without the need to use my actual mantras (saving them for when I need them).
(edited by Taldren.7523)
I haven’t followed this thread too closely but wanted to mention that the daze mantra already has a current 5s CD between uses. Granted that is our only hard CC mantra so the CD makes sense.
Currently using 3 mantras. I don’t think they need to change and making them recharge out of combat wouldn’t save anything. In order to not break the skills/balance the passive recharge time would need to equal the time needed to have the skill come off CD anyways. I like not having to rely on passive charge generation.
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