Guild Wars 2

So I know that staffs and ranged weapons in general are pretty mediocre weapons for Mesmers in dungeons. I also know that Mesmers kinda have to use a very specific cookie-cutter build so that we are somewhat relevant and viable compared to other classes.

That being said, I was wondering if we could brainstorm to see if there could be any good use for staffs in dungeons. At first, I thought maybe some boonshare tactic could work with CS + Sig but other classes do this so much better. Then I thought that maybe boonstripping with shatters but we do that better with Null Field, AT, and sword AA XD

Anyone have any ideas?

Staff works well for doing dungeon solos. Generally if you use power amulets most things work as well, but you won’t be helping your team do things quickly and they may kick you.

Staff can be use to fast spam clones for a shatter, but honestly it’s nt the best way to run Me in dungeons.

I find it hilarious when people say staff is useless for dungeons. If you’re running with an elitist group anyway, go roll a warrior or ele instead.

In a phantasm build, iWarlocks hit like single target trucks (averaging 8k crits in CoF).

Skipping mobs in Arah? Phase Retreat your way through. You suddenly don’t feel like the slowest class in the game with no speed signet and no constant access to swiftness outside of your focus.

Not optimal, but far from useless.

DeathReign.7821:

I find it hilarious when people say staff is useless for dungeons. If you’re running with an elitist group anyway, go roll a warrior or ele instead.

In a phantasm build, iWarlocks hit like single target trucks (averaging 8k crits in CoF).

Skipping mobs in Arah? Phase Retreat your way through. You suddenly don’t feel like the slowest class in the game with no speed signet and no constant access to swiftness outside of your focus.

Not optimal, but far from useless.

I run with my guildies, but I don’t want to be carried. The main reason staff is kinda bad IMO is that condis aren’t as powerful in PvE as they are in PvP. In a phantasm build, how are you going to rack up enough condis quickly enough for iWarlock to deal significant damage? And why use that over iSwordsmen or iWarden? That’s the mindset I have while I try to find other ways to make staff useful.

Skipping mobs with Phase Retreat seems like an excellent idea though! Would there be a way to do this without putting yourself in combat? You have to leave a clone if you wanna retreat forward unless you do that retreat turn maneuver and the clone will attack/aggro the mobs.

Side note: Does anyone know if Chaos Armor surrounds everyone in your party if you are stacked close enough? If the entire party is in your armor, will enemies have to hit the chaos armor to hit them? That would be useful if true.

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

I find it hilarious when people say staff is useless for dungeons. If you’re running with an elitist group anyway, go roll a warrior or ele instead.

In a phantasm build, iWarlocks hit like single target trucks (averaging 8k crits in CoF).

Skipping mobs in Arah? Phase Retreat your way through. You suddenly don’t feel like the slowest class in the game with no speed signet and no constant access to swiftness outside of your focus.

Not optimal, but far from useless.

I run with my guildies, but I don’t want to be carried. The main reason staff is kinda bad IMO is that condis aren’t as powerful in PvE as they are in PvP. In a phantasm build, how are you going to rack up enough condis quickly enough for iWarlock to deal significant damage? And why use that over iSwordsmen or iWarden? That’s the mindset I have while I try to find other ways to make staff useful.

Skipping mobs with Phase Retreat seems like an excellent idea though! Would there be a way to do this without putting yourself in combat? You have to leave a clone if you wanna retreat forward unless you do that retreat turn maneuver and the clone will attack/aggro the mobs.

Side note: Does anyone know if Chaos Armor surrounds everyone in your party if you are stacked close enough? If the entire party is in your armor, will enemies have to hit the chaos armor to hit them? That would be useful if true.

Vulnerability, bleeding, weakness and burning are common conditions that are applied regardless of build. Chaos storm does significant direct damage, and applies many unique conditions (chill, poison, etc) that add damage to your iWarlocks. In specific situations, you can position your iWarlocks, while you can’t your iSwordsmen. iWarlocks will without a doubt deal more damage than iWarden, so if you know that there will be nothing to reflect, it’ll be less of a crutch than the iWarden. Like I said, it’s not optimal, but it is definitely not useless.

You don’t go into combat when using phase retreat to skip mobs at all. (This isn’t meant as condescending, but I can tell that you probably don’t do much PvP or WvW as this is a pretty well known tactic in both). Switch off auto-targetting, and assign about-face a hotkey. About face, phase retreat, and about face again. It will take a bit of practice, but once you’re able to make this a smooth motion, you’ll be, as some people call it, phase dashing through dungeons like a pro.

If by Chaos Armor you mean Staff #4, no, it’s a single target ability (meaning only applied to yourself). I don’t quite understand what you mean in the last part of your sentence.

If you were to put a Chaos Field on the ground and someone blasted it, your entire party (limit of 5 of course) will get Chaos Armor. But this isn’t exactly very useful in dungeons – groups would rather blast fire fields for might stacks.

DeathReign.7821:

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

I find it hilarious when people say staff is useless for dungeons. If you’re running with an elitist group anyway, go roll a warrior or ele instead.

In a phantasm build, iWarlocks hit like single target trucks (averaging 8k crits in CoF).

Skipping mobs in Arah? Phase Retreat your way through. You suddenly don’t feel like the slowest class in the game with no speed signet and no constant access to swiftness outside of your focus.

Not optimal, but far from useless.

I run with my guildies, but I don’t want to be carried. The main reason staff is kinda bad IMO is that condis aren’t as powerful in PvE as they are in PvP. In a phantasm build, how are you going to rack up enough condis quickly enough for iWarlock to deal significant damage? And why use that over iSwordsmen or iWarden? That’s the mindset I have while I try to find other ways to make staff useful.

Skipping mobs with Phase Retreat seems like an excellent idea though! Would there be a way to do this without putting yourself in combat? You have to leave a clone if you wanna retreat forward unless you do that retreat turn maneuver and the clone will attack/aggro the mobs.

Side note: Does anyone know if Chaos Armor surrounds everyone in your party if you are stacked close enough? If the entire party is in your armor, will enemies have to hit the chaos armor to hit them? That would be useful if true.

Vulnerability, bleeding, weakness and burning are common conditions that are applied regardless of build. Chaos storm does significant direct damage, and applies many unique conditions (chill, poison, etc) that add damage to your iWarlocks. In specific situations, you can position your iWarlocks, while you can’t your iSwordsmen. iWarlocks will without a doubt deal more damage than iWarden, so if you know that there will be nothing to reflect, it’ll be less of a crutch than the iWarden. Like I said, it’s not optimal, but it is definitely not useless.

You don’t go into combat when using phase retreat to skip mobs at all. (This isn’t meant as condescending, but I can tell that you probably don’t do much PvP or WvW as this is a pretty well known tactic in both). Switch off auto-targetting, and assign about-face a hotkey. About face, phase retreat, and about face again. It will take a bit of practice, but once you’re able to make this a smooth motion, you’ll be, as some people call it, phase dashing through dungeons like a pro.

If by Chaos Armor you mean Staff #4, no, it’s a single target ability (meaning only applied to yourself). I don’t quite understand what you mean in the last part of your sentence.

If you were to put a Chaos Field on the ground and someone blasted it, your entire party (limit of 5 of course) will get Chaos Armor. But this isn’t exactly very useful in dungeons – groups would rather blast fire fields for might stacks.

I think we’re arguing about different things here. I’m not saying that staff is a useless weapon (I’m rank 78 in PvP btw), I’m saying that I want to find a way to use staff that is both viable in good dungeon parties and isn’t outclassed by other weapon choices or professions.

In terms of damage, iSwordsmen does more immediate damage than iWarlock as you don’t have to rack up different conditions first. Even iDuelist does more immediate DPS and, as you said, bleed is a condition that can easily be applied anyway. iDuelist can also be positioned and you have a better AA with sword. With all this, its safe to say that staff, and iWarlock with it, isn’t the best DPS weapon for dungeons.

This means we need to for other ways that it can be useful. Thank you for clearing up the chaos armor question. I didn’t know how to properly word the question but you figured it out.

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

Noah.9654:

I run with my guildies, but I don’t want to be carried. The main reason staff is kinda bad IMO is that condis aren’t as powerful in PvE as they are in PvP. In a phantasm build, how are you going to rack up enough condis quickly enough for iWarlock to deal significant damage? And why use that over iSwordsmen or iWarden? That’s the mindset I have while I try to find other ways to make staff useful.

Skipping mobs with Phase Retreat seems like an excellent idea though! Would there be a way to do this without putting yourself in combat? You have to leave a clone if you wanna retreat forward unless you do that retreat turn maneuver and the clone will attack/aggro the mobs.

Side note: Does anyone know if Chaos Armor surrounds everyone in your party if you are stacked close enough? If the entire party is in your armor, will enemies have to hit the chaos armor to hit them? That would be useful if true.

Vulnerability, bleeding, weakness and burning are common conditions that are applied regardless of build. Chaos storm does significant direct damage, and applies many unique conditions (chill, poison, etc) that add damage to your iWarlocks. In specific situations, you can position your iWarlocks, while you can’t your iSwordsmen. iWarlocks will without a doubt deal more damage than iWarden, so if you know that there will be nothing to reflect, it’ll be less of a crutch than the iWarden. Like I said, it’s not optimal, but it is definitely not useless.

You don’t go into combat when using phase retreat to skip mobs at all. (This isn’t meant as condescending, but I can tell that you probably don’t do much PvP or WvW as this is a pretty well known tactic in both). Switch off auto-targetting, and assign about-face a hotkey. About face, phase retreat, and about face again. It will take a bit of practice, but once you’re able to make this a smooth motion, you’ll be, as some people call it, phase dashing through dungeons like a pro.

If by Chaos Armor you mean Staff #4, no, it’s a single target ability (meaning only applied to yourself). I don’t quite understand what you mean in the last part of your sentence.

If you were to put a Chaos Field on the ground and someone blasted it, your entire party (limit of 5 of course) will get Chaos Armor. But this isn’t exactly very useful in dungeons – groups would rather blast fire fields for might stacks.

I think we’re arguing about different things here. I’m not saying that staff is a useless weapon (I’m rank 78 in PvP btw), I’m saying that I want to find a way to use staff that is both viable in good dungeon parties and isn’t outclassed by other weapon choices or professions.

In terms of damage, iSwordsmen does more immediate damage than iWarlock as you don’t have to rack up different conditions first. Even iDuelist does more immediate DPS and, as you said, bleed is a condition that can easily be applied anyway. iDuelist can also be positioned and you have a better AA with sword. With all this, its safe to say that staff, and iWarlock with it, isn’t the best DPS weapon for dungeons.

This means we need to for other ways that it can be useful. Thank you for clearing up the chaos armor question. I didn’t know how to properly word the question but you figured it out.

“Arguing” is used very loosely here.

Well that’s a tough pickle to swallow, as “good dungeon parties” basically means “highest DPS parties” in this game. Most of the dungeons are easy and require little to no team co-ordination. If you want to be top DPS, you are limited to the 2-3 weapons or cookie cutter builds that provide that top DPS.

I thought you were looking for ways to utilize staff in dungeon, because, you know, fun, without being a dead-weight. There is a difference between being able to carry your own weight and being optimized into dps.

Staff will never out-dps a dual sword or sword/pistol set up, and will therefore never be used in “good dungeon parties” (read: high dps parties). You can’t make a pig fly no matter how high the window you throw it out of is. That is why no one uses Torch in dungeons either – but at least iWarlock has the potential to hit like a truck unlike the iMage.

If you’re really level 78 in PvP, Mesmer must not be your main class, as I find it hard to believe that a Mesmer main with that much experience in PvP doesn’t even know how Chaos Armor works.

DeathReign.7821:

“Arguing” is used very loosely here.

Well that’s a tough pickle to swallow, as “good dungeon parties” basically means “highest DPS parties” in this game. Most of the dungeons are easy and require little to no team co-ordination. If you want to be top DPS, you are limited to the 2-3 weapons or cookie cutter builds that provide that top DPS.

I thought you were looking for ways to utilize staff in dungeon, because, you know, fun, without being a dead-weight. There is a difference between being able to carry your own weight and being optimized into dps.

Staff will never out-dps a dual sword or sword/pistol set up, and will therefore never be used in “good dungeon parties” (read: high dps parties). You can’t make a pig fly no matter how high the window you throw it out of is. That is why no one uses Torch in dungeons either – but at least iWarlock has the potential to hit like a truck unlike the iMage.

If you’re really level 78 in PvP, Mesmer must not be your main class, as I find it hard to believe that a Mesmer main with that much experience in PvP doesn’t even know how Chaos Armor works.

Mesmer is my only class XD I’m guessing you either don’t PvP much or didn’t understand what I was asking. I was asking that in situations where you are stacked tightly, and thus the mob is/should be hitting you as frequent as the rest of the party, if the boons you get from being hit while in chaos armor would proc every time said mob hits the stack. How often are you stacked in PvP? The answer is never XD

While DPS is important in higher tier dungeon parties, that isn’t the only option. There is the support Ele’s give with their might stacking, Guardians and Aegis, etc. That is what I wanted to explore with the staff. If that just isn’t possible, then at least I will have tried.

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

“Arguing” is used very loosely here.

Well that’s a tough pickle to swallow, as “good dungeon parties” basically means “highest DPS parties” in this game. Most of the dungeons are easy and require little to no team co-ordination. If you want to be top DPS, you are limited to the 2-3 weapons or cookie cutter builds that provide that top DPS.

I thought you were looking for ways to utilize staff in dungeon, because, you know, fun, without being a dead-weight. There is a difference between being able to carry your own weight and being optimized into dps.

Staff will never out-dps a dual sword or sword/pistol set up, and will therefore never be used in “good dungeon parties” (read: high dps parties). You can’t make a pig fly no matter how high the window you throw it out of is. That is why no one uses Torch in dungeons either – but at least iWarlock has the potential to hit like a truck unlike the iMage.

If you’re really level 78 in PvP, Mesmer must not be your main class, as I find it hard to believe that a Mesmer main with that much experience in PvP doesn’t even know how Chaos Armor works.

Mesmer is my only class XD I’m guessing you either don’t PvP much or didn’t understand what I was asking. I was asking that in situations where you are stacked tightly, and thus the mob is/should be hitting you as frequent as the rest of the party, if the boons you get from being hit while in chaos armor would proc every time said mob hits the stack. How often are you stacked in PvP? The answer is never XD

While DPS is important in higher tier dungeon parties, that isn’t the only option. There is the support Ele’s give with their might stacking, Guardians and Aegis, etc. That is what I wanted to explore with the staff. If that just isn’t possible, then at least I will have tried.

I’m very curious to what stretch of the imagination that the assumption of it passing on to your stacked allies is considered logical. I’m also amused that a rank 78 Mesmer main doesn’t know how to read his skills, or know how to phase dash. It does make sense that Mesmer is your only class though, since you do have auto targeting on. But I guess that’s why they say high rank =/= skill.

Might stacking eles are still zerk, and deal significant amounts of damage. That isn’t truly considered a “support role”, and if it is, it’s support dps, which is still dps. Aegis can be granted on zerk guardians, which doesn’t affect their dps output.

If you’re talking about a boonshare build in PvE, then you truly are a “deadweight” since it’s completely redundant. The only important boons in dungeons are might and fury, both of which a might stacking ele provides.

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

“Arguing” is used very loosely here.

Well that’s a tough pickle to swallow, as “good dungeon parties” basically means “highest DPS parties” in this game. Most of the dungeons are easy and require little to no team co-ordination. If you want to be top DPS, you are limited to the 2-3 weapons or cookie cutter builds that provide that top DPS.

I thought you were looking for ways to utilize staff in dungeon, because, you know, fun, without being a dead-weight. There is a difference between being able to carry your own weight and being optimized into dps.

Staff will never out-dps a dual sword or sword/pistol set up, and will therefore never be used in “good dungeon parties” (read: high dps parties). You can’t make a pig fly no matter how high the window you throw it out of is. That is why no one uses Torch in dungeons either – but at least iWarlock has the potential to hit like a truck unlike the iMage.

If you’re really level 78 in PvP, Mesmer must not be your main class, as I find it hard to believe that a Mesmer main with that much experience in PvP doesn’t even know how Chaos Armor works.

Mesmer is my only class XD I’m guessing you either don’t PvP much or didn’t understand what I was asking. I was asking that in situations where you are stacked tightly, and thus the mob is/should be hitting you as frequent as the rest of the party, if the boons you get from being hit while in chaos armor would proc every time said mob hits the stack. How often are you stacked in PvP? The answer is never XD

While DPS is important in higher tier dungeon parties, that isn’t the only option. There is the support Ele’s give with their might stacking, Guardians and Aegis, etc. That is what I wanted to explore with the staff. If that just isn’t possible, then at least I will have tried.

To answer your question, I’m pretty sure that the boons you get from being hit only apply to you. Even though your party appears to be in your bubble, the game is only going to recognize chaos armour as attached to you.

When you talk about wanting a more supportive role, I’m guessing you mean something along the lines of a Phalanx Strength warrior who, in non-optimal groups, trades some personal dps in order to increase party dps. However, that’s focused more on traits than weapons. I’m not sure anyone has tried theory crafting a support mes focused on staff, largely because staff is more condition based. It might be worth trying to theory craft one if you can find traits that boost staff and synergize well with each other. My guess is that staff simply won’t offer enough party-wide utility to make it worthwhile most of the time.

The primary downside to staff is that the autoattack does close to zero damage in a power build. While the phantasm hits very hard, it doesn’t hit hard enough to offset the total lack of damage from the autoattack. The staff has good utility purposes…. for yourself. It doesn’t really provide much of anything in the way of party utility.

now, I havent done the math, but if you’re traited for Illusionary Elasticity, you’ll be applying a great deal of fury to your party which will keep damage of other players high for the absence of your actual DPS from auto attacks.

I warlock hits like a freaking truck, and should not be discounted. Since GS sucks in dungeons, you might as well use staff if you’re going to have a 2h weapon.

DeathReign.7821:

If you’re talking about a boonshare build in PvE, then you truly are a “deadweight” since it’s completely redundant. The only important boons in dungeons are might and fury, both of which a might stacking ele provides.

Then you’ve answered my question: staff is a useless weapon in hier tier dungeons. Not sure why you had to get so bootyhurt just to prove yourself wrong :P

Fay.2357:

The staff has good utility purposes…. for yourself. It doesn’t really provide much of anything in the way of party utility.

I figured as much and its a bit sad that the staff can’t really help my party as much as I’d like. Do you think it would be a good support option for solo’s?

Hamster.4861:

I warlock hits like a freaking truck, and should not be discounted. Since GS sucks in dungeons, you might as well use staff if you’re going to have a 2h weapon.

Since you brought it up, I would like to discuss the pros and cons of staff/GS in dungeons. Whenever I absolutely have to bring a ranged weapon in dungeons or (especially) fractals, I bring GS because of the DPS at max range. GS is a terrible weapon because of the constant stacking though

As a ranged weapon, what about Staff is better? Is iWarlock an inherently better phantasm than iZerker in dungeon situations? Does the auto DPS from GS outweigh the support from staff auto?

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

If you’re talking about a boonshare build in PvE, then you truly are a “deadweight” since it’s completely redundant. The only important boons in dungeons are might and fury, both of which a might stacking ele provides.

Then you’ve answered my question: staff is a useless weapon in hier tier dungeons. Not sure why you had to get so bootyhurt just to prove yourself wrong :P

Excuse me? Bootyhurt? That’s a rather baseless assumption you have going on there.

Debaters like you are adorable. You can’t seem to read (I don’t know why I’m surprised since you clearly don’t read your own skills) and formulate your own self aggrandizing conclusions laced with mild ad hominem.

Where exactly have I proven myself wrong? I’ve stated from the start that Staff was never optimal, but it is far from useless, as my last statement still states. How is that self contradictory?

If you want to truly have a beneficial discussion, hop off your high horse and actually read what people write, not what you want to read.

DeathReign.7821:

Not optimal, but far from useless.

DeathReign.7821:

If you’re talking about a boonshare build in PvE, then you truly are a deadweight since it’s completely redundant. The only important boons in dungeons are might and fury, both of which a might stacking ele provides.

If that isn’t contradictory, I don’t know what is lol. Try again.

DeathReign.7821:

Debaters like you are adorable. You can’t seem to read (I don’t know why I’m surprised since you clearly don’t read your own skills) and formulate your own self aggrandizing conclusions laced with mild ad hominem.

This is, by definition, bootyhurt lol. No contribution to the actual conversation but instead replaced by cute condescending insults? Check. Anger that someone disagrees with your opinion? Check. Bringing my ability to read to what was supposed to be a civil discussion? Check. Instead of adding absolutely nothing but a good laugh to my day, how about you let the actual Mesmers talk? At least Fay and Hamster bring respected dialodge to the discussion :P

I’m not one to typically talk about viability for dungeons, but man I think you should use w/e you think looks cool and feels good! Unless your playing with ppl who require the 100% optimal or else you get /gkicked

I think it’s fun to switch it up~ sometimes GS other days staff S/S+S/F.

Only wep I rarely use is scepter.

Daishi.6027:

I’m not one to typically talk about viability for dungeons, but man I think you should use w/e you think looks cool and feels good! Unless your playing with ppl who require the 100% optimal or else you get /gkicked

I agree with the sentiment, and I normally only dungeon with guildies anyway, but I figured I would try to find a way to sneak staff into the #DungeonElites community without worrying about being kicked. Since others think that this might not be possible, we can start to look into the fun-runs! Any ideas?

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

Not optimal, but far from useless.

DeathReign.7821:

If you’re talking about a boonshare build in PvE, then you truly are a deadweight since it’s completely redundant. The only important boons in dungeons are might and fury, both of which a might stacking ele provides.

If that isn’t contradictory, I don’t know what is lol. Try again.

DeathReign.7821:

Debaters like you are adorable. You can’t seem to read (I don’t know why I’m surprised since you clearly don’t read your own skills) and formulate your own self aggrandizing conclusions laced with mild ad hominem.

This is, by definition, bootyhurt lol. No contribution to the actual conversation but instead replaced by cute condescending insults? Check. Anger that someone disagrees with your opinion? Check. Bringing my ability to read to what was supposed to be a civil discussion? Check. Instead of adding absolutely nothing but a good laugh to my day, how about you let the actual Mesmers talk? At least Fay and Hamster bring respected dialodge to the discussion :P

You are hilarious. Boonshare =/= dps staff. They are different things altogether, and while boonshare is deadweight, the dps the staff brings is not.

More self aggrandizing assumptions, with more ad hominem. Typical. I find it hilarious how hypocritical you are. “Let the actual mesmers talk”? Coming from a “Mesmer” that doesn’t know how chaos armor works, or how to phase dash? Cute.

Anger that someone disagrees with my opinion? My opinion is just about exactly the same as pyro’s. You just don’t seem to be able to read. Feel free to disagree.

Bottom line is, your self aggrandizing assumptions are exactly that: assumptions. You know what people say about assuming, yes? It makes an kitten out of u and me. More you than me right now.

DeathReign.7821:

You are hilarious. Boonshare =/= dps staff. They are different things altogether, and while boonshare is deadweight, the dps the staff brings is not.

DeathReign.7821:

Staff will never out-dps a dual sword or sword/pistol set up, and will therefore never be used in “good dungeon parties”

I’m going to assume that you are not actually reading what you are typing. Take that as you will. I’m also going to assume that you didn’t read what everyone else wrote where they agreed that iWarlock DPS is still relatively terrible compared to the rest of your skills. You should probably stop trying to make staff a DPS weapon. It is not a DPS weapon.

Fay’s opinion:

The primary downside to staff is that the autoattack does close to zero damage in a power build. While the phantasm hits very hard, it doesn’t hit hard enough to offset the total lack of damage from the autoattack. The staff has good utility purposes…. for yourself. It doesn’t really provide much of anything in the way of party utility.

How is this similar to your own? Where exactly are my assumptions? I guess we can both be cute together You’re absolutely welcome to keep raging about how I messed up on Chaos Armor while everyone else discusses things of actual relevance.

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

You are hilarious. Boonshare =/= dps staff. They are different things altogether, and while boonshare is deadweight, the dps the staff brings is not.

DeathReign.7821:

Staff will never out-dps a dual sword or sword/pistol set up, and will therefore never be used in “good dungeon parties”

I’m going to assume that you are not actually reading what you are typing. Take that as you will. I’m also going to assume that you didn’t read what everyone else wrote where they agreed that iWarlock DPS is still relatively terrible compared to the rest of your skills. You should probably stop trying to make staff a DPS weapon. It is not a DPS weapon.

Fay’s opinion:

The primary downside to staff is that the autoattack does close to zero damage in a power build. While the phantasm hits very hard, it doesn’t hit hard enough to offset the total lack of damage from the autoattack. The staff has good utility purposes…. for yourself. It doesn’t really provide much of anything in the way of party utility.

How is this similar to your own? Where exactly are my assumptions? I guess we can both be cute together You’re absolutely welcome to keep raging about how I messed up on Chaos Armor while everyone else discusses things of actual relevance.

Thank you for quoting the relevant parts so I don’t have to on my phone. Pyro says that the iWarlock hits very hard, but does not hit hard enough to make up for the dps loss in the auto attack. I’ve stated that the iWarlocks hit like trucks, but staff will never out-dps a sword/sword or sword/pistol set up. He states that staff has a lot of utility for yourself. I’ve stated how you can use it to skip mobs (utility for yourself). Basically, he says toe-may-toe and I say toe-mah-toe.

I’m far from raging about how you messed up on chaos armor. It’s perfectly fine to not know something. Unless you act like a pompous booty cavity and resort to ad hominem to make yourself feel better.

DeathReign.7821:

Thank you for quoting the relevant parts so I don’t have to on my phone. Pyro says that the iWarlock hits very hard, but does not hit hard enough to make up for the dps loss in the auto attack. I’ve stated that the iWarlocks hit like trucks, but staff will never out-dps a sword/sword or sword/pistol set up. He states that staff has a lot of utility for yourself. I’ve stated how you can use it to skip mobs (utility for yourself). Basically, he says toe-may-toe and I say toe-mah-toe.

I’m far from raging about how you messed up on chaos armor. It’s perfectly fine to not know something. Unless you act like a pompous booty cavity and resort to ad hominem to make yourself feel better.

And we’re back to full-circle for a second time to my original question: how can we make staff viable in dungeons without it being outclassed by other professions or even yourself. In terms of skipping mobs, Blink + MI + Torch 4 (the main skill Mesmers are using to skip mobs in Arah btw) are either better or have father range. I’d rather not use an entire 2 weapon slots just to skip trash mobs; same reason I personally don’t like using torch in Arah. My question on whether or not staff is viable in high tier dungeons has been answered—its not. You seem to keep fighting that.

As for ad hominem, for the love of god, please start using this term correctly XD The first instance of actual ad hominem was

DeathReign.7821:

You don’t go into combat when using phase retreat to skip mobs at all. (This isn’t meant as condescending, but I can tell that you probably don’t do much PvP or WvW as this is a pretty well known tactic in both).

DeathReign.7821:

If you’re really level 78 in PvP, Mesmer must not be your main class, as I find it hard to believe that a Mesmer main with that much experience in PvP doesn’t even know how Chaos Armor works.

This is the finest example of the kettle calling the pot black.

In case you couldn’t tell, this was an intentional ironic example of actual ad hominem.

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

Thank you for quoting the relevant parts so I don’t have to on my phone. Pyro says that the iWarlock hits very hard, but does not hit hard enough to make up for the dps loss in the auto attack. I’ve stated that the iWarlocks hit like trucks, but staff will never out-dps a sword/sword or sword/pistol set up. He states that staff has a lot of utility for yourself. I’ve stated how you can use it to skip mobs (utility for yourself). Basically, he says toe-may-toe and I say toe-mah-toe.

I’m far from raging about how you messed up on chaos armor. It’s perfectly fine to not know something. Unless you act like a pompous booty cavity and resort to ad hominem to make yourself feel better.

And we’re back to full-circle for a second time to my original question: how can we make staff viable in dungeons without it being outclassed by other professions or even yourself. In terms of skipping mobs, Blink + MI + Torch 4 (the main skill Mesmers are using to skip mobs in Arah btw) are either better or have father range. I’d rather not use an entire 2 weapon slots just to skip trash mobs; same reason I personally don’t like using torch in Arah. My question on whether or not staff is viable in high tier dungeons has been answered—its not. You seem to keep fighting that.

As for ad hominem, for the love of god, please start using this term correctly XD The first instance of actual ad hominem was

DeathReign.7821:

You don’t go into combat when using phase retreat to skip mobs at all. (This isn’t meant as condescending, but I can tell that you probably don’t do much PvP or WvW as this is a pretty well known tactic in both).

DeathReign.7821:

If you’re really level 78 in PvP, Mesmer must not be your main class, as I find it hard to believe that a Mesmer main with that much experience in PvP doesn’t even know how Chaos Armor works.

This is the finest example of the kettle calling the pot black.

In case you couldn’t tell, this was an intentional ironic example of actual ad hominem.

Thanks for ignoring the fact that I had to almost literally spell out how pyro’s opinion and mine are almost exactly the same.

Blink and MI have no weightage in comparing torch to staff for skipping, as they are utility skills. They are used regardless of what weapons you use. Add decoy to that list. The reason why I would choose staff over torch is because The Prestige has a 40 second cool down. Phase Retreat has a 10 second base cool down. A blink every 10 seconds is in my opinion more useful to skip mobs than a 3 second invisibility every 40 seconds.

That first example you posted was honestly not meant as any form of ad hominem. I even stated that it wasn’t intended as condescending. Apparently your fragile ego couldn’t handle that, and that’s not my problem.

Edit: where have I fought how Staff isn’t used in elitist dungeon groups? I’ve stated from post one that it isn’t optimal. As you’ve quoted I’ve stated that it will never out-dps sword set ups and will therefore never be used in elitist dungeon groups. Please stop spewing nonsense assumptions.

You don’t even know what you’re arguing about anymore, do you? You just now agreed with me that staff isn’t optimal in higher tier dungeons, you’ve stated yourself after I had to that staff is bad DPS weapon, and we’ve both come to the conclusion that staff support doesn’t really support the team. Ergo, taking an entire 2 weapon slots to skip trash mobs instead of only taking a utility slot and maybe an elite slot (apparently Time Warp isn’t as important as it used to be) is not a good idea.

DeathReign.7821:

That first example you posted was honestly not meant as any form of ad hominem. I even stated that it wasn’t intended as condescending. Apparently your fragile ego couldn’t handle that, and that’s not my problem.

So are you just trying to prove that you know what an ad hominem is now, or are you just bored?

Noah.9654:

You don’t even know what you’re arguing about anymore, do you? You just now agreed with me that staff isn’t optimal in higher tier dungeons, you’ve stated yourself after I had to that staff is bad DPS weapon, and we’ve both come to the conclusion that staff support doesn’t really support the team. Ergo, taking an entire 2 weapon slots to skip trash mobs instead of only taking a utility slot and maybe an elite slot (apparently Time Warp isn’t as important as it used to be) is not a good idea.

DeathReign.7821:

That first example you posted was honestly not meant as any form of ad hominem. I even stated that it wasn’t intended as condescending. Apparently your fragile ego couldn’t handle that, and that’s not my problem.

So are you just trying to prove that you know what an ad hominem is now, or are you just bored?

I never knew you couldn’t swap weapons while in a dungeon. Oh wait…

Calling you out on having a fragile ego isn’t ad hominem as it’s true. If your ego wasn’t so easily shattered, you would have actually taken what I said into account; it wasn’t meant as condescending, and that is how you phase dash.

DeathReign.7821:

Calling you out on having a fragile ego isn’t ad hominem as it’s true. If your ego wasn’t so easily shattered, you would have actually taken what I said into account; it wasn’t meant as condescending, and that is how you phase dash.

Okay, I’m going to explain to you exactly what an ad hominem is; as you don’t seem to quite grasp the meaning despite crying it out about eight times now.

An ad hominem is an attack on someone’s character to further an argument despite the trait in question being attacked either not having anything to do with the argument, or causing a fallacy.

What was the argument? Staffs in dungeons.
What was the ad hominem? In short: something about being new to Mesmers, PvP, and reading. Also something about egos.

Does any of that—specifically the part about egos—have anything to do with staffs in dungeons? I’ll help you through this one too. No it does not.

Have I answered all of your questions about basic adult debate? I’d hope so. Now let me ask you a final question that hopefully you’ll be able to grasp. Do you even know what you’re arguing about anymore? I’m going to assume the answer is no and that you’re just arguing to make yourself feel better (this is an ad hominem). As I’ve asked before, let the actual Mesmers who want to contribute to relevant discussions about ways to efficiently use a staff in dungeons talk.

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

Calling you out on having a fragile ego isn’t ad hominem as it’s true. If your ego wasn’t so easily shattered, you would have actually taken what I said into account; it wasn’t meant as condescending, and that is how you phase dash.

Okay, I’m going to explain to you exactly what an ad hominem is; as you don’t seem to quite grasp the meaning despite crying it out about eight times now.

An ad hominem is an attack on someone’s character to further an argument despite the trait in question being attacked either not having anything to do with the argument, or causing a fallacy.

What was the argument? Staffs in dungeons.
What was the ad hominem? In short: something about being new to Mesmers, PvP, and reading. Also something about egos.

Does any of that—specifically the part about egos—have anything to do with staffs in dungeons? I’ll help you through this one too. No it does not.

Have I answered all of your questions about basic adult debate? I’d hope so. Now let me ask you a final question that hopefully you’ll be able to grasp. Do you even know what you’re arguing about anymore? I’m going to assume the answer is no and that you’re just arguing to make yourself feel better (this is an ad hominem). As I’ve asked before, let the actual Mesmers who want to contribute to relevant discussions about ways to efficiently use a staff in dungeons talk.

The argument when I called you out on your fragile ego was whether or not I was personally attacking you or not. As with most “adult conversations” topics evolve to other topics, and main points get divided into sub-points. Read up on that. Calling you out on having a fragile ego is in direct relation to the argument of whether or not I was personally attacking you. I was not, but you perceived it as an attack, due to your very fragile ego. The list could go on about each and every instance of “ad hominem” you described, but I hope you get the point. Or would you rather I spell it out for you, as I had to most of the conversation for you to keep up?

My opinion is the same as it was at the start. Staff has its uses (e.g. skipping mobs) in dungeons, and has a decent dps output (iWarlock). It can be used efficiently and will carry your own weight. It is, however, not optimal, and will therefore not be used in elitist groups. If your only concern is whether it will be used in elitist groups, it’s safe to say that you’ve gotten your answer from post one.

Oh, and as usual, you ignore my rebuttals to your points. Have you actually participated in formal debates before? This tactic of sticking your head in the sand when you can’t address a point is deadly.

DeathReign.7821:

The argument when I called you out on your fragile ego was whether or not I was personally attacking you or not. As with most “adult conversations” topics evolve to other topics, and main points get divided into sub-points. Read up on that. Calling you out on having a fragile ego is in direct relation to the argument of whether or not I was personally attacking you. I was not, but you perceived it as an attack, due to your very fragile ego. The list could go on about each and every instance of “ad hominem” you described, but I hope you get the point. Or would you rather I spell it out for you, as I had to most of the conversation for you to keep up?

I’m going to assume that you don’t have many adult conversations. How often do adult conversations start as a discussion, evolve into trading of cute insults, and end in me having to educate you about what an ad hominem is as you clearly misuse it? As with every other question I’ve asked, it seems like I have to guide your through this. The answer is never. Adult conversations have at least a bit of maturity. People who engage in adult conversations also don’t compare them to forum discussions. Lol.

DeathReign.7821:

My opinion is the same as it was at the start. Staff has its uses (e.g. skipping mobs) in dungeons, and has a decent dps output (iWarlock). It can be used efficiently and will carry your own weight. It is, however, not optimal, and will therefore not be used in elitist groups. If your only concern is whether it will be used in elitist groups, it’s safe to say that you’ve gotten your answer from post one.

Are we really about to go around this for a third time? Do you normally make a point, throw a small tantrum, then make the same point only to repeat the process? Usually, people make a point and then wait for an opportunity to expand or improve said point. I’m going to assume that you just want to get the last word.

DeathReign.7821:

Oh, and as usual, you ignore my rebuttals to your points. Have you actually participated in formal debates before? This tactic of sticking your head in the sand when you can’t address a point is deadly.

I’m choosing to ignore most of your rebuttals because quite frankly, you have yet to make any relevant post after your first one, which itself was kinda lacking. You’re arguing for the sole sake of arguing. Pretty childish in my opinion. This apparently isn’t an ad hominem since, according to you, true statements don’t create fallacy in discussions.

Zomg enough, both of you to your rooms. We are mesmers! Find some dam common ground.

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

The argument when I called you out on your fragile ego was whether or not I was personally attacking you or not. As with most “adult conversations” topics evolve to other topics, and main points get divided into sub-points. Read up on that. Calling you out on having a fragile ego is in direct relation to the argument of whether or not I was personally attacking you. I was not, but you perceived it as an attack, due to your very fragile ego. The list could go on about each and every instance of “ad hominem” you described, but I hope you get the point. Or would you rather I spell it out for you, as I had to most of the conversation for you to keep up?

I’m going to assume that you don’t have many adult conversations. How often do adult conversations start as a discussion, evolve into trading of cute insults, and end in me having to educate you about what an ad hominem is as you clearly misuse it? As with every other question I’ve asked, it seems like I have to guide your through this. The answer is never. Adult conversations have at least a bit of maturity. People who engage in adult conversations also don’t compare them to forum discussions. Lol.

This made me legitimately chuckle. Thanks for that. All this coming from someone who had to have how two opinions are one in the same, just worded differently, literally spelled out for them? I love it.

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

My opinion is the same as it was at the start. Staff has its uses (e.g. skipping mobs) in dungeons, and has a decent dps output (iWarlock). It can be used efficiently and will carry your own weight. It is, however, not optimal, and will therefore not be used in elitist groups. If your only concern is whether it will be used in elitist groups, it’s safe to say that you’ve gotten your answer from post one.

Are we really about to go around this for a third time? Do you normally make a point, throw a small tantrum, then make the same point only to repeat the process? Usually, people make a point and then wait for an opportunity to expand or improve said point. I’m going to assume that you just want to get the last word.

You asked me if I knew what I was “arguing” about. I answered this question by stating what my opinion was, and that it hasn’t changed. Don’t blame me for you not being able to link the answer to the question.

Noah.9654:

DeathReign.7821:

Oh, and as usual, you ignore my rebuttals to your points. Have you actually participated in formal debates before? This tactic of sticking your head in the sand when you can’t address a point is deadly.

I’m choosing to ignore most of your rebuttals because quite frankly, you have yet to make any relevant post after your first one, which itself was kinda lacking. You’re arguing for the sole sake of arguing. Pretty childish in my opinion. This apparently isn’t an ad hominem since, according to you, true statements don’t create fallacy in discussions.

I’ve made plenty of relevant points but you’ve chosen to ignore them because they are relevant. If they really are irrelevant, please point out how so.

I’m not the one standing here saying “let the real mesmers talk”. Do you know how infantile that sounds? The hypocrisy is strong in this one.

Either way, I’ve decided that I’m done with you. You’re quite clearly so obsessed with your own opinions, you don’t care what other’s opinions are. That coupled with your hilariously inflated and fragile ego make for a rather pointless debate.

Your points are so far off focus, and so amusingly inaccurate, but I’ve decided that I don’t care enough about your opinion anymore to address them.

Go ahead and make more self aggrandizing assumptions to make yourself feel better. Knock yourself out. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

You will still be an apparent “real” rank 78 mesmer that doesn’t know how to phase dash, doesn’t know how chaos armor works, doesn’t know how to read two same opinions that are worded differently, and doesn’t know how to see past his own ego and opinion.

Have a good day.

OP, you may want to check this guide. I’ve found it interesting, but that is just me. Have fun!

For da moas!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-How-To-Mesmer-in-Dungeons

PS – OP, you should use the catchphrase " NoahMoa’d". I want to steal your name now

DeathReign.7821:

I’ve made plenty of relevant points but you’ve chosen to ignore them because they are relevant. If they really are irrelevant, please point out how so.

I’m not the one standing here saying “let the real mesmers talk”. Do you know how infantile that sounds? The hypocrisy is strong in this one.

Either way, I’ve decided that I’m done with you. You’re quite clearly so obsessed with your own opinions, you don’t care what other’s opinions are. That coupled with your hilariously inflated and fragile ego make for a rather pointless debate.

Your points are so far off focus, and so amusingly inaccurate, but I’ve decided that I don’t care enough about your opinion anymore to address them.

Go ahead and make more self aggrandizing assumptions to make yourself feel better. Knock yourself out. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

You will still be an apparent “real” rank 78 mesmer that doesn’t know how to phase dash, doesn’t know how chaos armor works, doesn’t know how to read two same opinions that are worded differently, and doesn’t know how to see past his own ego and opinion.

Have a good day.

Your last 6 post were nothing but misued ad hominem, insults, and “I’m laughing at this”. Where is the relevance in that? Thanks for the amusement though!

Knowing that I can always look at this great discussion and how awesome it was will help me sleep at night <3

@BoohDuh, glad you like the name! I shall now shout “You’ve been NoahMoa’d” Every time I down an enemy lol. The link, unless I’m not seeing it, pretty much says that I always want to use s/s s/f with the occasional pistol. However, it is still always a good read because its so knowledgeable so I’ll definitely go over it again

You know, I can have a pretty contentious forum manner, and I’ve gotten into some rather heated discussions from time to time, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen something quite like this thread.

One of those threads … Everyone flames and rages because noone accepts that he might be wrong. Be constructive please.

to topic: the staff is a very situational pve weapon. for soloing with a condition build he has a safe high dps of about 4-6k.
in power builds iWarlock is easy a good dps phantasm. conditions – guys seriously – the enemy is ALWAYS bleeding, vulnerable, burning and at least any other condition. You will always have +40% dmg unless your pt sux. the staff is only “bad” because of its aa. but think about when to use the staff. comparing the staff with the sword is silly. you will be using the staff if you cannot use the sword. for example you won’t be able to stay melee against mai thrin all the time. the staff is a good choice there as 2nd weapon (yet i still prefer the scepter). you can even block her attack with 2#. also the most importent point is that mantra of pain significally increases the staffs “aa” damage. charging and unloading it instead of aa is a huge damage increase.

staff isn’t bad, but it’s situational – like every mesmer weapon.

Staff is a terrible weapon for dungeons because of these 3 reasons. It’s power based dps is horrible, it doesn’t cleave, and even with 3 clones out it’s effectiveness drops like a rock as soon as there is 1 or more enemy and/or ally near your target.

After hitting the enemy, traited aa has 2 bounces. Ideally it’ll bounce to you for a chance of might/fury and then right back to the enemy for more condition pressure. If you keep this rotation up along with 3 clones then your condi dps will be amazing (~5k) However, keeping up this ideal rotation is like juggling 5 balls while doing a rodeo.

As soon as one of your clones gets closer to the enemy than you, the WoC orb will bounce to that clone and not you, which will interrupt your fury and might source (applying fury/might to clones does absolutely nothing) and halve your dps. If some npc ends up closer to your target than you, result is the same – you lose your fury/might. If a party members is closer to enemy than you then he will have a chance at some might/fury and only him, everyone else in the party including you get absolutely nothing. If you need to range then orbs will not bounce since they are limited to around 1,200 range for all 3 jumps combined, which forces you to melee which pretty much nullifies the whole purpose of staff and you might as well use sword. With 3 clones up your dps split is 70% from clones so if any of them die to enemy cleave/aoe – you lose a massive chunk of your dps. If you run into a boss you can’t crit, you lose around half of bleeds since Sharper Images won’t proc. If you run into a structure then you’re completely out of the game because they are immune to conditions. Arah p1 entities are no go either because the power debuff doesn’t scale up your condi dmg so you’re pretty much useless. If you run into a boss that reflects, your dps will be 0 because your and your clone aa is a projectile.

The only valid use for staff in dungeons is spawning warlock, dropping chaos storm, and immediately swapping to sword and never going back to staff till boss is dead. All other staff skills have zero value for dungeons. If you absolutely have to range, please just use the gs.

Using staff for trash skipping is a horrible idea too since to leap forward without turn/blink/turn you will have to target something behind you, which will put you in combat. Do yourself a favor and just carry around a PVT armor set with centaur runes for trash skips. That + mantra is all you need to make even the hardest skips in Arah. Perma swiftness and all your available stealth sources are more than enough to make all trash skips without even getting in combat.

It’s not a bad weapon for dungeons (unlike Greatsword). It’s just not exactly a good weapon either, IMO.

The Warlock hits quite hard, so starting a fight with the Staff, spawning two Warlocks with Signet then swapping to Sword/Focus or something like that is a good way to get extra phantasm damage in.

Phase Retreat can be useful depending on context, Chaos Armour is at least there, and well… in rare situations Chaos Storm can be nice. But mostly for Warlock. Still, worlds better than the GS. :P

Direct DPS for Warlock / Berserker / Swordsman at 25 might:

• 771 dps – Berserker (3 hits)
• 804 dps – Warlock (0 condis)
• 884 dps – Warlock (1 condis)
• 973 dps – Warlock (2 condis)
• 1,028 dps – Berserker (4 hits)
• 1,070 dps – Warlock (3 condis)
• 1,177 dps – Warlock (4 condis)
• 1,294 dps – Warlock (5 condis)
• 1,314 dps – Swordsman
• 1,424 dps – Warlock (6 condis)
• 1,566 dps – Warlock (7 condis)
• 1,723 dps – Warlock (8 condis)
• 1,895 dps – Warlock (9 condis)
• 2,085 dps – Warlock (10 condis)
• 2,293 dps – Warlock (11 condis)
• 2,523 dps – Warlock (12 condis)

It’s not easy to keep 6+ condis on the enemy at all times which is why the Swordsman is the phantasm of choice. Duelist dps is near Swordsman level and is not dependent on the condis like Warlock. Might as well stick with the proper melee weapon and spawn a duelist instead of the Warlock at the start of the fight.

Why are you comparing the staff with a melee weapon? If you can stay melee you will ALWAYS have to stay melee with the sword. However if you get forced to go ranged the staff or scepter both are the better single target options than the gs. If you got a mantra build you even will get a damage bonus when you burst your mop’s and recharge it while waiting for weapon swap again to get some melee burst done.

It is how it is – mesmer weapons are situational.

So I did a small test. Solo’d Ancient Ooze from Arah p1. Both tests used same assassins/zerk gear, same 1,200 range, same 6/4/0/0/4 build, and same ideal conditions where all 3 phantasms were alive for the whole encounter. Ooze had on average of 2 conditions on him except for the times when I used Chaos Storm where conditions spiked to about 3 or 4 conditions.

• GS + 3 Berserkers = 3 min 33 sec
• Staff + 3 Warlocks = 5 min 25 sec

The results are conclusive. At range, gs > staff.

That’s a silly conclusion. “A is better than B in the tested situation. Therefore it must be better anywhere” … I expected more from you frifox.

Of course that test alone is not enough. However, it did reaffirmed my conclusion which I came to from my past experience with mesmer business. Even with multiple conditions the dmg increase would not be enough to overtake the gs kill time, which is the goal after all.

If you want, give an example of a test or situation that would prove staff to be better than gs.

Frifox, you may add “in dungeons”. Based on your data, staff looks quite good for World Boss.

I recall the only time I use staff is at Brie. Pump clone -> Shatter while 111 with sword. Not sure what is the best way there.

Iris Ng.9845:

Frifox, you may add “in dungeons”. Based on your data, staff looks quite good for World Boss.

I recall the only time I use staff is at Brie. Pump clone -> Shatter while 111 with sword. Not sure what is the best way there.

Yeah, staff is theoretically good for world bosses. I say theoretically, because there’s not really any compelling reasons on the vast majority of world bosses not to just spam gs 1 from max range.

It could be worth trying when grouping up with a decent engi in fractals. I’m not a fan of range weapons and would rather not use greatsword at all.

Iris Ng.9845:

Frifox, you may add “in dungeons”. Based on your data, staff looks quite good for World Boss.

I recall the only time I use staff is at Brie. Pump clone -> Shatter while 111 with sword. Not sure what is the best way there.

I would like to clarify that staff is actually one of my favorite weapons on Mesmer. You are absolutely right to say that staff is a good weapon for most world bosses (I can think of maybe 2 where you will definitely want to run GS over staff) and staff is a fantastic weapon for PvP and WvW.

Dungeons, unfortunately, aren’t in favor of our staves

Firfox, thank you for doing the calcs and tests. Its really nice to see numbers to clarify things.