Guild Wars 2

Hello all fellow mesmer players and game designers.

This topic is about suggesting something new to staff wielding mesmers.
To me it seems kinda odd that mesmer has many condition traits but still doesnt feel like a true condi damage dealer. I personally like carrion gear with berserker runes because of running chronomancer and spamming F1 and i like doing the hybrid(ish) idea.

The main thing why i started this topic i guess is the autoattack of staff, it just seems .. outdated?
Maybe increasing the attack speed or/and adding some attack damage to it.

Discuss.

-Teemu

Edit: I would also really like to see carrion statted ascended trinkets.
Why dont these exist?

Imo, staff 1 condition wear off way too fast. Thats why you felt like it doesn’t even exist. Guess anet’s point of view is shatter since they apply torment and confusion.

I think it’s the usual problem with mesmer. Whether power or condi, or sustained damage is bottom low. When I play condi, I usually rely on the pistol phantasm bleeds, which give a nice non-shatter burst (whether in PvE or PvP).

One of the problems with Staff 1 is they didn’t double its Burning when they halved Burning’s damage during the trait update. Allowing Clone attacks to bounce twice does cover for that somewhat but not entirely.

the problem is with the shatter mechanism
in order to do direct dmg we create 1-2 illusion like izerk and clone from gs2 and shatter them in melee range for nice good dmg burst

but with condi as we dont have fast burst we need to stay far range and shatter the illusions which need to travel distance and in team fight get killed fast. this is the reason why condi mesmer are good in dueling mainly and not pvp.

so anet wants us to shatter more which is great idea with condi shatter as all shatter inflict conditions but the pressure we can do with 1-2 illusion is just too low to put some pressure.

so first revet back the mtd to 2 stacks (but i guess it will make mesmer contest versus the rev torment viper build)
second burning got nerfed with mesmer as all classed got buffed in duration or stacking while staff didnt . so buff staff duration to be 2-3 sec
also scepter AA is still slow so give it base 15% (so with trait it would be really gm trait)

I have to disagree I main a Mesmer and I main a condition build.

Runes of Tormenting or Perplexity is what you have to use. I have a set of each.
Condition styled Mesmers/Chronomancers are best made with with some form of shatter support.

Your big hitter conditions are in your shatters. (Torment and Confusion)

They work wonders in the HoT zones because all the mobs 1. move all the d*** time and 2. try to attack you constantly

Torment and Confusion both obviously play very well with mobs that do such things.

However, if you are not comfortable shattering your illusions on a regular basis then…you’ll still get there…but it will take longer.

The Auto Attack on the Staff I equate to have the same effectiveness as poison.
Not the best to open up with but will keep the enemies health…relatively close to where it is if you are caught in between cool downs.

I think the staff AA is ok… but if it were any stronger by too much when you have four of you attacking one target it could get out of hand.

Tormenting: Plays better with constant application and kiting to some degree…
However, if you go all in and end up with +10’s of torment (per illusion; including you) you have a lot skill overlay from your shatters and scepter. Past a certain point your enemy is not out running 4 stacks of torment for +10’s each with more on the way.

Perplexity: is tricky even with runes it is short lived if you take this set of runes your Torment and Confusion stack for similar durations. However with Perplexity runes and your aim is to stack confusion…timing is a bit more important but…you can maintain 6-10 stacks of confusion with spikes of 17-22 stacks in between those being maintained.

Also, if you aren’t comfortable using yourself as one of your shatters since you count too…you’ll be a cut below this.

There are some traits you have to pick which I do not know the names of…well can’t remember.

Taltevus.3289:

I have to disagree I main a Mesmer and I main a condition build.

Runes of Tormenting or Perplexity is what you have to use. I have a set of each.
Condition styled Mesmers/Chronomancers are best made with with some form of shatter support.

Your big hitter conditions are in your shatters. (Torment and Confusion)

They work wonders in the HoT zones because all the mobs 1. move all the d*** time and 2. try to attack you constantly

Torment and Confusion both obviously play very well with mobs that do such things.

However, if you are not comfortable shattering your illusions on a regular basis then…you’ll still get there…but it will take longer.

The Auto Attack on the Staff I equate to have the same effectiveness as poison.
Not the best to open up with but will keep the enemies health…relatively close to where it is if you are caught in between cool downs.

I think the staff AA is ok… but if it were any stronger by too much when you have four of you attacking one target it could get out of hand.

Tormenting: Plays better with constant application and kiting to some degree…
However, if you go all in and end up with +10’s of torment (per illusion; including you) you have a lot skill overlay from your shatters and scepter. Past a certain point your enemy is not out running 4 stacks of torment for +10’s each with more on the way.

Perplexity: is tricky even with runes it is short lived if you take this set of runes your Torment and Confusion stack for similar durations. However with Perplexity runes and your aim is to stack confusion…timing is a bit more important but…you can maintain 6-10 stacks of confusion with spikes of 17-22 stacks in between those being maintained.

Also, if you aren’t comfortable using yourself as one of your shatters since you count too…you’ll be a cut below this.

There are some traits you have to pick which I do not know the names of…well can’t remember.

I knew the moment I read “I have to disagree” that you’d be talking PvE or WvW. Next line “Perplexity runes”, heh.

Mes requires perplexity, tormenting, condi stat stacking, and food to make its condi setups gnarly. In PvP we lose perplexity, can’t stack condi damage (ala Dire stats, spare signit on bar etc), no access to food or crystals, and the whole thing falls down about 8 grades of awesome -_-u

Taltevus.3289:

I have to disagree I main a Mesmer and I main a condition build.

Runes of Tormenting or Perplexity

Stopped reading right there as it’s irrelevant to sPvP.

In any case I think the OP is talking about Staff, not Condi Mes in general. It is true that the Staff is pretty bad as an offensive condi weapon. Whether Condi Mes as a whole is viable is a different story.

Staff AA could do with a burning fix (raise to 2 stacks or increase to 2s base), and iWarlock could do with a supplementary condition application of some sort.

2s base sounds good. iWarlock could increase the duration of all conditions on the target when it hits. Also wouldn’t hurt if it bounces.

What do you mean it’s irrelevant?
While this is done with Perplexity runes If I had runes of torment (Which I do) the stacks of that torment would be grand.

Each stack of torment would be 10.5 seconds long. that’s a lot to play in terms of skill cool downs.

I’d have to shatter differently but, in this photo I shattered to stack confusion.
If I man handle that scepter, trust and believe I can and, you can achieve more than 18 stacks of torment. The play-style is a bit different too.

And still, I disagree with the O.P.
I have the Tormenting Rune in PvP and I use staff scepter and torch.

So again…no the staff does not need a boost. I mean yeah, if you want to run into pvp and try to AA everything to death. Which will not work.

Staff is fine but you must utilize it differently for different types of enemies.
If you notice your opponent is generally ignoring your clones that have staves…it’s more than likely he’s not paying attention to conditions either.

Hence, kite’em around between them for a bit then proceed to apply pressure however you choose.

If you have someone hellbent on getting at you; bursty thieves.
#4.)
#5.)
#2.) at the end of #5 (or as optional) (or dodge)
Shatter of your choice (Likely f3 to keep them in #5 if exited early via #2 or dodging)

Don’t #3 until you get a good amount of varying conditions from #5 proceed from there.

Jfyi: 18 stacks of torment is pretty gnarly this is why we only get 1 stack per illusion shattered. Also 18 stacks WITHOUT Tormenting runes specific for torment stacking…I still got 18 stacks.

If you want direct damage…use the great-sword? (which can make a deceptive condi build)

All in all it is relevant because it can shift the Mesmers power band.
If I could do what I do with all the edits you guys want to make to staves…
I would have never known Miley Cyrus could be so good at pvp.

Taltevus.3289:

What do you mean it’s irrelevant?
While this is done with Perplexity runes If I had runes of torment (Which I do) the stacks of that torment would be grand.

Each stack of torment would be 10.5 seconds long. that’s a lot to play in terms of skill cool downs.

I’d have to shatter differently but, in this photo I shattered to stack confusion.
If I man handle that scepter, trust and believe I can and, you can achieve more than 18 stacks of torment. The play-style is a bit different too.

And still, I disagree with the O.P.
I have the Tormenting Rune in PvP and I use staff scepter and torch.

So again…no the staff does not need a boost. I mean yeah, if you want to run into pvp and try to AA everything to death. Which will not work.

Staff is fine but you must utilize it differently for different types of enemies.
If you notice your opponent is generally ignoring your clones that have staves…it’s more than likely he’s not paying attention to conditions either.

Hence, kite’em around between them for a bit then proceed to apply pressure however you choose.

If you have someone hellbent on getting at you; bursty thieves.
#4.)
#5.)
#2.) at the end of #5 (or as optional) (or dodge)
Shatter of your choice (Likely f3 to keep them in #5 if exited early via #2 or dodging)

Don’t #3 until you get a good amount of varying conditions from #5 proceed from there.

Jfyi: 18 stacks of torment is pretty gnarly this is why we only get 1 stack per illusion shattered. Also 18 stacks WITHOUT Tormenting runes specific for torment stacking…I still got 18 stacks.

If you want direct damage…use the great-sword? (which can make a deceptive condi build)

All in all it is relevant because it can shift the Mesmers power band.
If I could do what I do with all the edits you guys want to make to staves…
I would have never known Miley Cyrus could be so good at pvp.

1. What the heck has Miley Cyrus to do with this?
2. Lol at the pic. So, you’ve just burned ALL of your shatters, and also hit all of them (also used two utility-skills, which happen to be stunbreaks too). And you get “epic” something-over-1k torment ticks. Great. You do realize that in a power-build, auto-attacks do the same damage, right? And you still have all of your shatters, and phantasms, and etc…
3. You claim this would work in PvP. Okay. Try to burn all of your shatters on the same opponent without getting killed before you get all the illusions to do so. And without your opponent dodging your shatters. And without your opponent (or random AoE) killing your illusions before they shatter. And without your opponent using a single cleanse and killing you as you just blew up everything you have.

4. Don’t get me wrong. I love condi-Mesmer. Mesmer is my main for more than 3 years already; I’ve got over 1k hours on it (don’t remember the exact number), and it’s the character I play the most by far. I’ve leveled it from 1 to 80 (and played it way beyond that) with Carrion gear and staff sword/focus, without any points in Dueling. And I still loved it (of course I’ve changed stuff since then, but I always chuckle when I see people go “amagawd, Mesmer so hard to level cause illusions die and low dmg and needs traits to be any good!”). Also, I’ve played condi or condi-shatter in WvW and also PvP, and had quite a lot of fun with it. However. Since leagues started (I didn’t play much PvP between launch of HoT and league-start), I started to notice more and more that the huge amounts of AoE are a real problem nowadays. Illusions often die half a second after they spawned. Also, many classes/builds have tons of condi-cleanse, and some are even completely immune to condis (looking at you, Diamond Skin Tempest… it was a sad day to face a premade with two of you, and each one of you would easily out-sustain three of my team… ugh). So that’s when even I started to think about switching the build, or maybe even the profession (for PvP). Currently trying some support-variant (basically a variant of what they call alacrity-bunker/support)… tried it first with Celestial amulet, but then I found I’m totally useless without at least 1-2 allies next to me… so I switched to Marauder… worked better… although after facing teams today which could burst anyone down within 1-2 seconds and/or applied unbelievable amounts of condis, I’ve switched to soldier amulet. Meh. I miss the fun I’ve had with condi… but as it is currently, almost everything seems to counter condi-Mesmer hard.

in pvp when i face condi mesmer i usually get 2 torment and 2 confusion as i cleanse with insp trait line so he basically can do anything . not to mention diamond ele guard, ranger, thief with lots of dodge engi and warrior with some kind of immunity

so yes its good for dueling in open area like wvw but that it

believe me i am the biggest fan of condi shatter but sad about its outcome

Thanks for all the replies.
It seems that we can agree on this thing that; There isn’t really a place for a condi mesmer.

No no, I think there’s definitely a place for it, but it’s a pretty narrow place. I wouldn’t use it in PvE nor in proper WvW (a.k.a. not roaming), but I would use it in sPvP (and still do).

I dismissed Taltevus because when he mentioned Perplexity runes it’s obvious his POV has nothing to do with sPvP, not because Condi Mes is completely useless in it.

Staff on the other hand is pretty useless for condi pressure, which is what you were talking about in the OP. Regardless of build Staff is a defensive weapon.

in pvp its agai nvery narrow place – hoding with 1v1 far or close. but in team fight you drop in dmg compare to other class and build. and also 1v1 versus diamond skin useless (although doable)

A few things:

1) Torch #3 and Torch Phantasm need to be brought in line after the changes to Burn. How on Earth Anet ever equated 4x Confusion for 3 seconds with 1 stack of Burn for Five seconds is plain ignorant math. Even with the old Burn this was a bad trade, but now it’s just a huge disgusting nerf to the worst Phantasm we have, and always was the worst. The Prestige used to own, now it’s neither good in DD and the Burn is an insult. Should be 3 stacks of AE Burning to bring this back to it’s old glory. TP carries the Torch, and always has!

2) Agreed on Staff AA. The Burn should be 2 stacks, same short duration.

Both of these are NOT even a boost to Mesmers, they are merely a FIX after the huge indirect nerf caused by the new stackable Burn and changes to condition damage modifiers. No one has ever cried about the Staff AA being OPd before, so why the huge nerfs? It’s still way too slow to ever be a decent attack.

All that said, I’m actually playing a Carrion Condition Chrono-Shatter right now in unranked sPvP and doing OK with it. It wouldn’t be nearly as viable in ranked play vs. organized teams, but in pugs I’m noticing a LOT of people running FoTM builds/professions that are quite vulnerable to conditions. With Carrion you can also muscle through Diamond skin and do roughly the same Power damage as Condition damage, truly hybrid. (Love the new post game stats that show this very clearly.)

I also feel that overall the 25k HPs from Carrion is often times better than the 16k in Rabid, despite the difference in Toughness. In this new burst-damage meta 16k just makes you squishy any way you slice it IMO. Between Staff/CA, Shield, and 25k HPs I have pretty decent survivability and do a fair bit of tanking on point.

The key to damage output for a Condie Shatter Mesmer is making use of Chrono Phants + IR + Shield and rapid-firing shatters to stack Confusion + Torment. And during this, the Power on Carrion does a good job adding Retaliation and MW DD.

On that note I’ve also started using Carrion + Scavenging runes in pvp with Inspiration/Illusions/Chrono Sword/Shield + Staff and I find it a good compromise between survivability and damage output.

Windwalker.7421:

A few things:

1) Torch #3 and Torch Phantasm need to be brought in line after the changes to Burn. How on Earth Anet ever equated 4x Confusion for 3 seconds with 1 stack of Burn for Five seconds is plain ignorant math. Even with the old Burn this was a bad trade, but now it’s just a huge disgusting nerf to the worst Phantasm we have, and always was the worst. The Prestige used to own, now it’s neither good in DD and the Burn is an insult. Should be 3 stacks of AE Burning to bring this back to it’s old glory. TP carries the Torch, and always has!

2) Agreed on Staff AA. The Burn should be 2 stacks, same short duration.

Both of these are NOT even a boost to Mesmers, they are merely a FIX after the huge indirect nerf caused by the new stackable Burn and changes to condition damage modifiers. No one has ever cried about the Staff AA being OPd before, so why the huge nerfs? It’s still way too slow to ever be a decent attack.

All that said, I’m actually playing a Carrion Condition Chrono-Shatter right now in unranked sPvP and doing OK with it. It wouldn’t be nearly as viable in ranked play vs. organized teams, but in pugs I’m noticing a LOT of people running FoTM builds/professions that are quite vulnerable to conditions. With Carrion you can also muscle through Diamond skin and do roughly the same Power damage as Condition damage, truly hybrid. (Love the new post game stats that show this very clearly.)

I also feel that overall the 25k HPs from Carrion is often times better than the 16k in Rabid, despite the difference in Toughness. In this new burst-damage meta 16k just makes you squishy any way you slice it IMO. Between Staff/CA, Shield, and 25k HPs I have pretty decent survivability and do a fair bit of tanking on point.

The key to damage output for a Condie Shatter Mesmer is making use of Chrono Phants + IR + Shield and rapid-firing shatters to stack Confusion + Torment. And during this, the Power on Carrion does a good job adding Retaliation and MW DD.

if i need a break and going to what i love i do unranked condi shatter and having fun same as you. if it ranked i shout home holder and sometimes i manage to do fine if my team doing fine also. i can put 20 confusion and 10 torment if its 1v1 unless helps comes with cleanse and res…..
this is the problem with condi mesmer. not much diversity of conditions.
seem anet want to push us to confusion and torement while revenant to torment and burning , necro bleed poison and chill

messiah.1908:

necro bleed poison and chill

My condi reaper puts up useful amounts of burning on top of the others, and even some decent torment from the change to Feast of Corruption.

With regards to condition diversity, I like to use things like Sigil of Earth, Frailty and Doom to eat up cleanses. Doesn’t matter they don’t do much damage, if a cleanse eats up a stack of Vulnerability instead of your Confusion and Torment then that’s a win for you.

It also helps to bait your enemies into cleansing prematurely. instead of instantly putting down 20+ stacks and alerting them to what you could do, start by poking them with conditions, note their cleanses and once you think they’re empty, lay down the hurt.

Curunen.8729:

On that note I’ve also started using Carrion + Scavenging runes in pvp with Inspiration/Illusions/Chrono Sword/Shield + Staff and I find it a good compromise between survivability and damage output.

Yeah I like Scavenging with it too, nice 1500+ Condie damage and adds some nice heals & spikes from the leech.

It’s not bad but still a bit niche, and occasionally you run into a real Condie damage profession and realize just how mediocre Condie Mesmer actually is. ;-)

Personally I think Mesmer Condi is best played as a supplement to Bunker. You can easily build a Condi Bunker that is just as if not more survivable than the classic Support Bunker thanks to Illusions traits, while boasting a lot more offensive pressure.

A glassy Condi Mesmer (and I consider anything without Toughness to be glassy, Vitality prevents you from being bursted but doesn’t make you much more survivable in the long run) doesn’t do anything other professions can’t. The main thing going for Mesmer Condi is it can be a lot more survivable than other Condi specs without sacrificing much offense (meagre as it may be), and that should be your focus; otherwise you’re better off playing Malyx Rev or something.

The problem there is rabid amulet is almost a waste of one stat (precision) without Sharper Images, and Settler amulet just hasn’t got good enough damage even if using undead runes to supplement the condi damage.

Wanderer is glassier than rabid and every other condi/hybrid amulet is pretty much pure glass.

I know dire (and now trailblazer) are excessive in survivability, but there should be a compromise for pvp amulets, with something providing just a little toughness/vitality (could just be 450 each) in addition to condi damage, expertise or power.

Either that or give us more condition on crit traits/skills to make use of the precision.

As I start to play more pvp, this is the basic problem for me as well. I’m using Rabid now, and basically the precision is almost completely wasted.

I’ve tried putting in a couple of “on-crit” sigils to make me feel better about having the precision, but I like other sigils better.

I’m low enough level that this isn’t that big of a deal, but I could see this blocking condi mesmer from being effective in more competitive scenarios

It’s true that Settler isn’t a lot of damage, but that’s why I say it’s a supplement to bunkering. Settler is a pretty good bunker amulet, and despite the meagre offensive output it still outstrips pure bunkers by a lot.

For solo queuing, I have more success playing Condi Bunker than pure Support Bunker. It’s a lot more survivable (referring to Support Bunker, not Power Bunker) and damaging, and the loss of team support can almost be considered a plus as you are spared facepalm moments when your “allies” seem to want to do everything except accepting your support.

I’m with Curunen on this. Rabid is a waste of Prec, and Mesmers simply don’t gain enough from Healing Power to make Settlers worth it IMO. Even with 1200 Toughness, having only 16k HPs makes you only marginally more tanky then in Carrion with a full 9k HPs more.

Best of all you have no wasted stats. The 900 Power does great things for Retaliation damage, which becomes almost like another Condition for you. It also brings up MW and other DD quite a bit. This helps vs. Diamond Skin and in general gives quite a bit more of a bite to this build as compared to a pure Condie Shatter build.

I played with Settlers for a while, but

Toughness is superior to Vitality by an enormous margin when you factor in Restorative Illusions. Healing Power widens the gap even more. Toss in permanent Alacrity and Master of Misdirection to minimise Shatter CDs and suddenly that Healing Power really adds up.

Vitality prevents you from being bursted down, but with so much Toughness it’s almost impossible to be bursted down with direct damage anyway and conditions melt in the face of Restorative Illusions. Once a fight goes on for more than a few seconds, Toughness + Healing Power + constant, very frequent healing >>>>> Vitality.

What I’m trying to get at is, your health pool is almost irrelevant (so long as you cannot be bursted) when a big part of your survivability is healing, and damage reduction makes healing a lot more effective. So no, compared to Settler? Carrion is an absolutely terrible bunker amulet.

Again I should point out I’m talking about Condi Bunkers. In some ways Condi Bunker actually soft-counters Diamond Skin because while neither of you can kill each other in a 1vs1, DS Eles are actually quite vulnerable to conditions without DS so the moment +1 arrives for you the DS Ele is doomed. The opposite however is not true.

First off let me say I agree with the OP. Staff skills do need a buff, whether it’s 2 stacks of burning or a longer duration, the burning damage from staff AA and chaos storm is almost negligible. I also agree that torch burning skills need a buff, as the weapon is only useful right now for the stealth.

Second, I understand that condi shatter was pretty strong over the past year or so, and I can fathom why Maim the Disillusioned was nerfed, although I think this had more to do with PU to than MtD itself. My issue with the nerf is that a 50% stealth nerf was waaaay over the top, and was simply unnecessary.

There were more options than just 1 stack or 2 stacks of torment. They could’ve reduced the number of stacks, but gave the torment 50% longer duration, so that it would equate to a 25% nerf without cleansing being taken into account. When you consider that higher damage over a shorter duration is ideal, due to condi cleanses, that’d probably be more like a 33% nerf at the end of the day.

Thus, condi mesmer is easily the weakest sPvP mesmer build: bunker mes and power shatter are both far superior.

I still think condi mesmer is viable, but just barely, and it is nowhere near the optimal mesmer build for PvP.

hotcarl.8621:

First off let me say I agree with the OP. Staff skills do need a buff, whether it’s 2 stacks of burning or a longer duration, the burning damage from staff AA and chaos storm is almost negligible. I also agree that torch burning skills need a buff, as the weapon is only useful right now for the stealth.

Second, I understand that condi shatter was pretty strong over the past year or so, and I can fathom why Maim the Disillusioned was nerfed, although I think this had more to do with PU to than MtD itself. My issue with the nerf is that a 50% stealth nerf was waaaay over the top, and was simply unnecessary.

There were more options than just 1 stack or 2 stacks of torment. They could’ve reduced the number of stacks, but gave the torment 50% longer duration, so that it would equate to a 25% nerf without cleansing being taken into account. When you consider that higher damage over a shorter duration is ideal, due to condi cleanses, that’d probably be more like a 33% nerf at the end of the day.

Thus, condi mesmer is easily the weakest sPvP mesmer build: bunker mes and power shatter are both far superior.

I still think condi mesmer is viable, but just barely, and it is nowhere near the optimal mesmer build for PvP.

You are playing condi mesmer wrong. This is possibly the best solo point holder and/or 1vX’er. I would happily prove you wrong.

I disagree, I am playing it just fine. More importantly, you are an kitten, so go kitten off if you are just going to insult people.

And how would a bunker mesmer not be superior to condi for holding a point? What you said literally doesn’t make any sense.

hotcarl.8621:

And how would a bunker mesmer not be superior to condi for holding a point? What you said literally doesn’t make any sense.

Condi Bunker goes into Illusions, which reduces the CD of all Shatter and Illusion skills. This means you can Shatter-heal/cleanse more often and with more illusions at a time (bigger heals).

More importantly it gives you access to Persistence of Memory, reducing the CD of all Phantasms (including the shield’s Block) by 2s per Phantasm Shattered. Coupled with Chronophantasma and you have a recipe for extremely low Phantasm (and therefore Block) CD.

As an example, assuming you don’t lose Avengers before they get Shattered, Echo of Memory’s CD is effectively 16s. This doesn’t take into account Alacrity (perma-Alacrity brings the CD down to a whooping 6.4s) or any CD reduction from other Shattered Phantasms.

Overall a Condi Bunker can Block overwhelmingly more often and heal a lot more than a non-Illusion-specced Bunker. The tradeoff is you don’t have Stability or permanent Protection. The result is you’re almost invincible against professions without unblockable attacks, but more vulnerable to those that do (DH, Necro, and to some extent Rev).

I really wouldn’t call a Condi Bunker’s damage “massive”, it’s really quite mediocre compared to other Condi specs. But it does its job and you’ll definitely put out a lot more pressure than if you went Chaos-Insp.

On the flip side you have very little team support so I wouldn’t play Condi Bunker in an organised team. The ability to share Quickness, Alacrity, Protection and a bit of Stability trumps selfish survivability.

Embolism.8106:

I really wouldn’t call a Condi Bunker’s damage “massive”, it’s really quite mediocre compared to other Condi specs. But it does its job and you’ll definitely put out a lot more pressure than if you went Chaos-Insp.

On the flip side you have very little team support so I wouldn’t play Condi Bunker in an organised team. The ability to share Quickness, Alacrity, Protection and a bit of Stability trumps selfish survivability.

On certain scenarios it does burst quite a lot. But I agree on the organised team thing. It also does not really work in certain team comps, especially when your team cant 4v4 or 4v3. Thats what i felt in solo queue.

hotcarl.8621:

Yes, I use illusions, and I use persistence of memory. That’s what keeps me alive using a Wanderer’s Amulet.

Anyway, I wasn’t referring to a condi bunker vs a regular bunker. Otherwise I would’ve said condi bunker. When someone says they run a power shatter mesmer, do you assume they are talking about power bunker? No, because power shatter is a decent build. Condi shatter just isn’t as good since the MtD nerf, a point which you basically made for me when you assumed that condi means condi bunker.

However, such a build does not really exist for mesmer anymore. When I said condi, I was referring to an offensively-focused build based around killing enemies relatively quickly by stacking conditions. Power shatter or bunker (either condi bunker or the meta alacrity bunker build) is just better.

I have played a lot of matches as a mesmer and tried pretty much every single condi mesmer setup out there. I enjoy playing a condi shatter mesmer, but I know that if I play ranked against a good team, I can’t use that build, since it puts out as much condi damage as my cele reaper build, without the sustain or power damage.

And chronophantasma isn’t that nice in a build that is about quickly shattering, since my phantasms would spend as much time stunned as they do attacking. I definitely prefer seize the moment, since it allows me to get a lot more attacks off in a short period of time, and create more clones, create them quicker, and shatter them quicker, giving me more alacrity while also reducing the recharge of my phantasm skills.

Any decent condi shatter build (focused around dealing damage) also needs dueling to be effective, because of blinding dissipation + ineptitude, as well as deceptive evasion for generating clones and sharper images (and phantasmal fury imo) for stacking bleeds, etc. Which, again, makes chronophantasma completely unnecessary.

So if people are looking for a decent (offensively focused) condi chrono build, I have been having some success running a staff, scepter/shield build, with dueling 113, illusions 231 and chrono 222. But I have a feeling this build is probably going to take a hit when the (completely broken) bunker mesmer builds get nerfed.

This is literally the best condi shatter build I could come up with, and I challenge anyone to find a better one (apart from a bunker build) and yet, it still is lacking in effectiveness. It’s not useless, it’s playable, and even viable to win matches with, but it is nowhere near optimal.

Blindness is over rated, therefore going Dueling is meh. Also, you cant hold a point without Inspiration line. I think you understand me by now, all you have to choose is right utility spells for Stability/Mobility and sustain, oh and grab that 2x Moa to go ham mode 1vX.

Blindness isn’t the point, it’s the extra confusion you get on shatters from the combination of blinding dissipation and ineptitude. Wow you are really simple, aren’t you?

And I can hold a point just fine without inspiration, but maybe you just suck with mesmer and you don’t know how to manage your dodges.

hotcarl.8621:

Blindness isn’t the point, it’s the extra confusion you get on shatters from the combination of blinding dissipation and ineptitude. Wow you are really simple, aren’t you?

And I can hold a point just fine without inspiration, but maybe you just suck with mesmer and you don’t know how to manage your dodges.

And what do you do when condi pressure comes? Dodge away?

Lol’d. You are funny.

I run null field and WoE. That simple.

And I can also dodge while remaining on a point. And with a sigil of energy and the vigor I get from dueling, I have dodges for days. And every time I do, it creates another clone to shatter with.

hotcarl.8621:

I run null field and WoE. That simple.

That is like 10 seconds, a lil more if F5’d, of clearance. What if they are down? What if you have to kite/rotate and have random condis/pressure on you?

Wish i could post that face from twitch chat. You know which one.

If they are down I just create a couple clones and use my f4 shatter while I quick-stomp them. If I have to kite or rotate I just blink away, but more importantly, I try not to let them put that many condis on me in the first place by using my dodges and putting condi pressure on them at the same time.

Actually I don’t even really need to use f4, I can use any one of my shatters and usually get a stomp off without a problem, since they all blind the target and any enemies in a 240 radius. F4 is usually just my go to in case another enemy tries to CC me while I am stomping.

With the current state of things, Inspiration is very useful when solo given all the Condi revs and so on out there.

hotcarl.8621:

Blindness isn’t the point, it’s the extra confusion you get on shatters from the combination of blinding dissipation and ineptitude.

Quite negligible. The vast majority of your damage is coming from Torment, not Confusion; and especially not if your opponent’s half-decent. If they’re not you’ll be wiping the floor with them without that extra Confusion stack anyway.

As for Deceptive Evasion, Inspiration gives you Mental Defence; which is affected by Alacrity, Illusionist’s Celerity and Persistence of Memory. This gives you a zero cast time Defender on a very low CD that also fuels Chronophantasma and Persistence of Memory, giving you more Phantasms (including from Mental Defence) and more importantly, more Blocks (which, incidentally, proc Mental Defence!).

Disgusting synergy. For Condi Bunkers, Mental Defence is comparable to Deceptive Evasion in terms of illusion generation, while also providing a whole host of other benefits.

Finally, by taking Inspiration you free up a utility slot and can choose a stronger self-heal if you desire, while having more condition cleansing (not to mention healing) than if you took the two condition cleansing skills without Inspiration. Given how strong Mesmer utilities are, freeing up a slot is a pretty big deal.

i play with this idea long ago before hot and even after
condi bunker with illusion, chaos, inspiration
so i got support with boon share, defender, boons,
but i loss some illusion proc with no DE and CP and no shield for some blocks

[quote=5834201No one has ever cried about the Staff AA being OPd before[/quote]

You’ve not been around here for long, have you? :P

it is a huge problem how slow mesmer’s scepter ether bolt chain is from a distance; it is SIGNIFICANT!

the only way to minimize it is to use a different skill after each skill in the chain: (example: ether bolt > phantasm > ether blast > confusing images > either clone) or get really close to the target

i’d like to redirect all this pvp talk to the subject i originally had in mind; which is the fact about mesmer having lots of condi traits and on paper almost looks like a real condi character, but the condi damage is just to amazingly low.

haamutee.3917:

i’d like to redirect all this pvp talk to the subject i originally had in mind; which is the fact about mesmer having lots of condi traits and on paper almost looks like a real condi character, but the condi damage is just to amazingly low.

simply cause every condi skill is proc-passive and not active
you have to block and hope your enemy whom you target is the one to put 5 torment
you have to create illusions and shatter and hope they wont killed in the way and not be bugged to run the other direction
only AA and IB are active but so slow
we dont have any utilities which proc conditions
we have 2 conditions torment and confusion mainly

rev – all skills are proc- active, great utilities with aoe, torment, burning , confusion and might stacking