Guild Wars 2

Instead of this being a channel in which you can’t do anything during without breaking the effect, I would like to suggest the following replacement …

Replace:
“The Prestige” – Disappear in a cloud of smoke, blinding nearby foes. Reappear three seconds later, burning nearby foes.

With:
“The Prestige” -> “Disrepute”
“The Prestige” – Disappear in a cloud of smoke, Blinding nearby foes.
“Disrepute” – Burn nearby Foes.

This will allow you to go the entire 3 seconds with the option of not producing the AE burn at the end … or even throwing a heal on yourself like you can do with other stealth abilities and still end with the AE Burn if you are fast enough.

This would be awesome. Mage is still weak though. He should do a cover condition on confusion. Retaliation is not a good fit for a cond build (melee range). Be better if he did aegis
FYI Mage uses cond duration on confusion. I usually have it up to 5 seconds with food and traits

If only it was AE Retaliation akin to the AE Regen phantasms provide.

FYI Mage uses cond duration on confusion. I usually have it up to 5 seconds with food and traits

Yes, but not Master of Misdirection … which is the big one.

quercus.9261:

This would be awesome. Mage is still weak though. He should do a cover condition on confusion. Retaliation is not a good fit for a cond build (melee range). Be better if he did aegis

Retaliation works for all direct damage, not just from melee. Though, you’d have to be fairly close to get the bounce back (600m).

FYI Mage uses cond duration on confusion. I usually have it up to 5 seconds with food and traits

Condition duration bonus don’t work with illusions.

as an avid torch user, I’d love to be able to chain the prestige instead of having to wait for it to finish once to miss out on the blast finisher because any fields I combo it with vanish unless I pop them just before using it (which defeats the purpose of the combo field)

As long as it retains the blast finisher and has maybe a 1 second cooldown after you start the invisibility before you can pop the blast, I think it’d be perfectly balanced

I want the torch to be viable so badly, it just suites my playstyle so well.
I think if they either reduced the cooldown or let us use skills while the stealth is active then it would be much better (only let an attack break stealth. Even if stealth breaks, let the effect still go off, just when stealth becomes broken.)

The more I use my torch the more I wish the prestige worked like our blocks… Where you channel it but can hit the button again to use another ability…. As for fixing Mage, I don’t really think he’s broken, but I’d love it if the retal he gave went to everyone within X range of his target.

iMage is fine, frankly. For condition specced toons, it likely the highest or second highest damage phantasm you can spec (depending if you have crit for iDuelist).

That’s nonsense. For starters, a staff clone is better than iMage for condition build (on top of being “un-missable”). Moreover, iMage won’t benefit from a number of powerful confusion duration increases that benefit the toon. Finally, the retaliation part has no synergy.

It’s a very weak phantasm.

Zid.4196:

That’s nonsense. For starters, a staff clone is better than iMage for condition build (on top of being “un-missable”). Moreover, iMage won’t benefit from a number of powerful confusion duration increases that benefit the toon. Finally, the retaliation part has no synergy.

It’s a very weak phantasm.

Math isn’t nonsense.

All an enemy needs to do with my condition damage build is to cast once to do about the same damage as my iWarlock (1000-1200 damage).

If the enemy casts more than one ability (often) or if I catch Retaliation (fairly often, I’m usually within 600m range when I swap to the Torch), it will do a lot more than iWarlock.

Zid.4196:

That’s nonsense. For starters, a staff clone is better than iMage for condition build (on top of being “un-missable”). Moreover, iMage won’t benefit from a number of powerful confusion duration increases that benefit the toon. Finally, the retaliation part has no synergy.

It’s a very weak phantasm.

Do you know what math is? iWarlock is AWFUL for condition builds, for one very simple reason, it scales off of power, which a lot of conditions builds just don’t have because, you know, they’re using CONDITION DAMAGE, which is another reason to use iMage.

For my condtion build the only thing my iWarlock is good for is being a meat shield and shatter fodder, the iMage on the other hand i’m always reluctant to get rid of due to how much damage the confusion and retal do in combination with my burning, bleeding, poison, and other stacks of confusion.

alanis.6094:

Zid.4196:

That’s nonsense. For starters, a staff clone is better than iMage for condition build (on top of being “un-missable”). Moreover, iMage won’t benefit from a number of powerful confusion duration increases that benefit the toon. Finally, the retaliation part has no synergy.

It’s a very weak phantasm.

Math isn’t nonsense.

All an enemy needs to do with my condition damage build is to cast once to do about the same damage as my iWarlock (1000-1200 damage).

If the enemy casts more than one ability (often) or if I catch Retaliation (fairly often, I’m usually within 600m range when I swap to the Torch), it will do a lot more than iWarlock.

Durzlla.6295:

Zid.4196:

That’s nonsense. For starters, a staff clone is better than iMage for condition build (on top of being “un-missable”). Moreover, iMage won’t benefit from a number of powerful confusion duration increases that benefit the toon. Finally, the retaliation part has no synergy.

It’s a very weak phantasm.

Do you know what math is? iWarlock is AWFUL for condition builds, for one very simple reason, it scales off of power, which a lot of conditions builds just don’t have because, you know, they’re using CONDITION DAMAGE, which is another reason to use iMage.

For my condtion build the only thing my iWarlock is good for is being a meat shield and shatter fodder, the iMage on the other hand i’m always reluctant to get rid of due to how much damage the confusion and retal do in combination with my burning, bleeding, poison, and other stacks of confusion.

You guys are focusing so much on math you’re failing reading comprehension. He said CLONE and not iWarlock. Referring to staff clones stacking random conditions.

Yeah iWarlock is obviously junk in a condition damage build.

A normal staff clone might well be better than an iMage though, especially if you don’t have the 20% faster attack speed trait.

iMage does 3 stacks of confusion every 6 seconds. Staff clone does one winds of chaos every 1.75 seconds IIRC. Someone better at math than me would have to do the math.

nortagemdrol.9071:

alanis.6094:

Zid.4196:

That’s nonsense. For starters, a staff clone is better than iMage for condition build (on top of being “un-missable”). Moreover, iMage won’t benefit from a number of powerful confusion duration increases that benefit the toon. Finally, the retaliation part has no synergy.

It’s a very weak phantasm.

Math isn’t nonsense.

All an enemy needs to do with my condition damage build is to cast once to do about the same damage as my iWarlock (1000-1200 damage).

If the enemy casts more than one ability (often) or if I catch Retaliation (fairly often, I’m usually within 600m range when I swap to the Torch), it will do a lot more than iWarlock.

Durzlla.6295:

Zid.4196:

That’s nonsense. For starters, a staff clone is better than iMage for condition build (on top of being “un-missable”). Moreover, iMage won’t benefit from a number of powerful confusion duration increases that benefit the toon. Finally, the retaliation part has no synergy.

It’s a very weak phantasm.

Do you know what math is? iWarlock is AWFUL for condition builds, for one very simple reason, it scales off of power, which a lot of conditions builds just don’t have because, you know, they’re using CONDITION DAMAGE, which is another reason to use iMage.

For my condtion build the only thing my iWarlock is good for is being a meat shield and shatter fodder, the iMage on the other hand i’m always reluctant to get rid of due to how much damage the confusion and retal do in combination with my burning, bleeding, poison, and other stacks of confusion.

You guys are focusing so much on math you’re failing reading comprehension. He said CLONE and not iWarlock. Referring to staff clones stacking random conditions.

Dunno what the point of comparing a clone to a phantasm. I figured he was just mistaken in his typing.

alanis.6094:

Dunno what the point of comparing a clone to a phantasm. I figured he was just mistaken in his typing.

That’s the issue they were actually trying to make you aware of, if a staff clone beats the iMage there appears to be an issue. Now one would think they would improve the damage of the phantasms to ensure they were better than a staff clone. . . but more likely they’ll nerf staff clones instead. That would be the approach they have shown us thus far, however that being said I would hope they would fix the phantasms to be quite a bit better overall. I enjoy my phantasm build I’ve been running around with lately because it has pretty decent survival, but it really doesn’t do anything for damage, and Thieves popping all their CDs still can nearly instagib it.

Delofasht.4231:

alanis.6094:

Dunno what the point of comparing a clone to a phantasm. I figured he was just mistaken in his typing.

That’s the issue they were actually trying to make you aware of, if a staff clone beats the iMage there appears to be an issue. Now one would think they would improve the damage of the phantasms to ensure they were better than a staff clone. . . but more likely they’ll nerf staff clones instead. That would be the approach they have shown us thus far, however that being said I would hope they would fix the phantasms to be quite a bit better overall. I enjoy my phantasm build I’ve been running around with lately because it has pretty decent survival, but it really doesn’t do anything for damage, and Thieves popping all their CDs still can nearly instagib it.

I haven’t tested if staff clone beats iMage for my spec, but that wouldn’t be super relevant since it means it would also iWarlock and ALL phantasms in my spec.

A more appropriate naming scheme would be “The Turn” → “The Prestige”. Apart from that, spot on. All this conversation about iMage is not particularly on topic.

That’s a great suggestion, but the Torch would still be unusable for DPS. As it is now, It’s DPS is so much lower than all the other off-hands that you might as well not equip an off-hander.

Mage damage needs to be increased by roughly 4x to match the next weakest phantasm. And, the CD needs to be reduced to match others, too. Why is such a pathetic phantasm on the longest CD?

I have a suspicion that devs might mutter, “but you can have 3 phantasms out at once”. Heh. Assuming they’re double traited, that’s 36s (other weapons) or 48s (torch). If you stand still for that long without killing the phantasms (they die in one auto attack), you really deserves to be hit by that extra DPS.

With BiS Rabid gear, a staff clone will massively outperform iMage. The clone attacks every 0.75 sec. By the time iMage attacks once, even with Phantasmal Haste, the clone inflicts 2s of burning and 25s of bleed, for a base condition damage of 1,7k. The iMage will do 390 base multiplied by the number of skill activations in those three seconds, and possibly a single bleed.

Next, my favorite argument: “But…but…if the THEIF activates skills many times in 3 seconds, iMage will outperform, yes??!?”

No, absolutely not. The last thing you want to do when fighting this appparently suicidal thief is bothering with 3/4s casting time and the iMage attack delay/travel time/whatever. The thing you do is insta-spawn 3 clones without any risk of failing, and Cry of Confusion. That’s it.

Taldren.7523:

Instead of this being a channel in which you can’t do anything during without breaking the effect, I would like to suggest the following replacement …

Replace:
“The Prestige” – Disappear in a cloud of smoke, blinding nearby foes. Reappear three seconds later, burning nearby foes.

With:
“The Prestige” -> “Disrepute”
“The Prestige” – Disappear in a cloud of smoke, Blinding nearby foes.
“Disrepute” – Burn nearby Foes.

This will allow you to go the entire 3 seconds with the option of not producing the AE burn at the end … or even throwing a heal on yourself like you can do with other stealth abilities and still end with the AE Burn if you are fast enough.

Totally agree with this suggestion, i couldnt see why a stealth skill should keep us on a channel state. The option to break the stealth to produce the aoe fire is really good, pls do it .

I have wanted to be able to control the second part of Prestige since its inception. It’s not just the damage, or the lack of being ‘locked out’, but to actually have a blast finisher on Mesmer that you can quickly trigger.

Zid.4196:

With BiS Rabid gear, a staff clone will massively outperform iMage. The clone attacks every 0.75 sec. By the time iMage attacks once, even with Phantasmal Haste, the clone inflicts 2s of burning and 25s of bleed, for a base condition damage of 1,7k. The iMage will do 390 base multiplied by the number of skill activations in those three seconds, and possibly a single bleed.

Its actually 1s of Burning and 7s of Bleeding. 2 and 25 would be a bit silly. It also is 1/3 chance for Vulnerability. The clones also have a 1s attack rate, not 0.75s.

With 1700 condition damage:

1/3 chance of Burning at 753 dmg
1/3 chance of Bleed at (127.5 × 7) for 893 dmg
1/3 chance of Vuln at 0 dmg

Averaged out is 549 dmg per cast.

With 1700 condition dmg, your 3 stack of confusion will hit for 1155 per activation. Retaliation will do another 300-310 per hit taken.

The number of casts that staff clones get before being shattered/die is a pretty big variable. They will need at least two casts to equal the amount of damage from one enemy activation via confusion (not including Retaliation damage).

But this still isn’t what really matters — iMage is doing more damage than all other phantasms with my spec (condition/IP), and therefore it isn’t “nonsense” that the iMage is fine.

“Condition duration bonus don’t work with illusions”

the tooltip goes from 3→5 seconds on the Mages confusion skill with 70% condition duration. Admittedly I didn’t get a stopwatch out to confirm if it actually worked.

quercus.9261:

“Condition duration bonus don’t work with illusions”

the tooltip goes from 3->5 seconds on the Mages confusion skill with 70% condition duration. Admittedly I didn’t get a stopwatch out to confirm if it actually worked.

It doesn’t actually work.

alanis.6094:

Zid.4196:

With BiS Rabid gear, a staff clone will massively outperform iMage. The clone attacks every 0.75 sec. By the time iMage attacks once, even with Phantasmal Haste, the clone inflicts 2s of burning and 25s of bleed, for a base condition damage of 1,7k. The iMage will do 390 base multiplied by the number of skill activations in those three seconds, and possibly a single bleed.

Its actually 1s of Burning and 7s of Bleeding. 2 and 25 would be a bit silly. It also is 1/3 chance for Vulnerability. The clones also have a 1s attack rate, not 0.75s.

You are so wrong.

The staff clone attacks every .75s. In 4.5s, less than phantasmal haste iMage 4.8s, that sums up to 6 attacks. On average, they’ll cause burning twice (2s) and bleeding twice (10s). In addition, BiS rabid will average 3 bleeds from sharper images (additional 15s of bleed, for a total of 25s).

Zid.4196:

alanis.6094:

Zid.4196:

With BiS Rabid gear, a staff clone will massively outperform iMage. The clone attacks every 0.75 sec. By the time iMage attacks once, even with Phantasmal Haste, the clone inflicts 2s of burning and 25s of bleed, for a base condition damage of 1,7k. The iMage will do 390 base multiplied by the number of skill activations in those three seconds, and possibly a single bleed.

Its actually 1s of Burning and 7s of Bleeding. 2 and 25 would be a bit silly. It also is 1/3 chance for Vulnerability. The clones also have a 1s attack rate, not 0.75s.

You are so wrong.

The staff clone attacks every .75s.

My stopwatch says your wrong, and so does the wiki. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Retreat

In 4.5s, less than phantasmal haste iMage 4.8s, that sums up to 6 attacks. On average, they’ll cause burning twice (2s) and bleeding twice (10s). In addition, BiS rabid will average 3 bleeds from sharper images (additional 15s of bleed, for a total of 25s).

Feel free to cast a staff clone with a stop watch and count how many times it actually hits in 4.5 seconds. It absolutely will not be 6.

You are also assuming that the clones will be around long enough to cast these attacks. Most of the time, they will be shattered very quickly.

You are also assuming that I am running full Rabid gear, which I am not.

Oh and back to your original post, I totally thought that’s how the Torch worked when I first tried it. . . couldn’t figure out why I couldn’t end the channel or perform any other actions. Took the torch out of my bags as bits of wood and sold it on the trading post, best investment I ever made. Seriously though, I’m glad you have a build it works in, and am pleased you like it, though I’d much rather see other things fixed first. That said this is a perfect correction to the Prestige.

alanis.6094:

Zid.4196:

With BiS Rabid gear, a staff clone will massively outperform iMage. The clone attacks every 0.75 sec. By the time iMage attacks once, even with Phantasmal Haste, the clone inflicts 2s of burning and 25s of bleed, for a base condition damage of 1,7k. The iMage will do 390 base multiplied by the number of skill activations in those three seconds, and possibly a single bleed.

Its actually 1s of Burning and 7s of Bleeding. 2 and 25 would be a bit silly. It also is 1/3 chance for Vulnerability. The clones also have a 1s attack rate, not 0.75s.

My Rabid gear post was not addressed to you at all. You could run around in town clothes for all I care.

Other posters said many condition builds have no power at all. You, btw, said it’s crit that decides if iDuelist does more damage than iMage. That rules out a hybrid condition+power gear, as there’s no way iMage outdamages hybrid iDuelist.

Which leaves us with the three +condition, no power gear types. They are Rabid (an excellent choice for Mesmer), Shaman (a poor choice) and Apothecary (a poor choice that is also expensive on the TP).

Therefore, the only no power (or base power, or 916 power) condition build worth discussing is Rabid. Since I happen to have played it extensively in both PvE and PvP, here’s the news:

- the core of the build are three staff clones out; it’s not worth taking Phantasmal Haste with this build, so the iDuelist is best used in a combo with an ethereal field; otherwise it’s not really worth the swithcing away from staff, the casting time, the risk of failure and the lower hp.

- similarly to a shatter build, the rabid build is very good at replacing clones. Yet, shattering clones is not the core of the build; particularly Mind Wrack at 916 power is a bad move unless the very finisher.

- Your must have weapons are staff and pistol. There’s no room for the weak iMage under any circumstances.

Of course, everyone is free to play however they like. If somebody feels like playing in Shaman/Apothecary mix with iMage, he’s free to do so. What he is not free to do is claim that “Math” is somehow on his side.

Zid.4196:

Other posters said many condition builds have no power at all. You, btw, said it’s crit that decides if iDuelist does more damage than iMage. That rules out a hybrid condition+power gear, as there’s no way iMage outdamages hybrid iDuelist.

I run 4p Rabid armor, 2p Soldier, and Carrion Jewelry.

Last time I damage checked these was after the change in the iMage. If the enemy only activated one ability with confusion, then iDuelist would win the damage. With more than one activation, I believe that the iMage actually pulls ahead.

My spec doesn’t take Phantasmal Fury. If I wanted to go that route, I’d imagine the iDuelist would push ahead, but w/o the trait I think the iMage actually maintains an advantage at my 30% crit rate.

Which leaves us with the three +condition, no power gear types. They are Rabid (an excellent choice for Mesmer), Shaman (a poor choice) and Apothecary (a poor choice that is also expensive on the TP).

Unrelated to the main topic, but Apothecary gear is pretty good with Dwayna Runes an a condition/IP shatter build. A whole lot of extra regen and protection.

Zid.4196:

With BiS Rabid gear, a staff clone will massively outperform iMage. The clone attacks every 0.75 sec. By the time iMage attacks once, even with Phantasmal Haste, the clone inflicts 2s of burning and 25s of bleed, for a base condition damage of 1,7k. The iMage will do 390 base multiplied by the number of skill activations in those three seconds, and possibly a single bleed.

Next, my favorite argument: “But…but…if the THEIF activates skills many times in 3 seconds, iMage will outperform, yes??!?”

No, absolutely not. The last thing you want to do when fighting this appparently suicidal thief is bothering with 3/4s casting time and the iMage attack delay/travel time/whatever. The thing you do is insta-spawn 3 clones without any risk of failing, and Cry of Confusion. That’s it.

The clone doesn’t attack every .75 seconds. That’s the attack speed on winds of chaos, but there’s a delay between each attack (IIRC of 1 second).

SoggyFrog.4170:

A more appropriate naming scheme would be “The Turn” -> “The Prestige”. Apart from that, spot on. All this conversation about iMage is not particularly on topic.

Couldn’t think of anything to really use … so I just went with the opposite :p