(edited by Raawk.7584)
Symptoms Nerf, Not the root cause
Do you know what I always found OP about Mesmer? Their auto attacks do damage! WTF is that about? Shatters do damage why do they need their auto attacks to do damage as well? If Mesmer players don’t like it there are 8 other classes whose auto attacks do damage just play as one of them why do you want Mesmer to be OP?
Troll in the dungeon! The issue was chronobunk not the damage.. Completely disregarded the post and you decided to troll a constructive thread, contribute or gtfo. You probably dont even play mesmer anyway so why should you care.
Before bunker chrono was a thing I was using BD and Inspiration in my zerker shatter builds. Why? Because stability stopped me getting locked down and Inspiration kept the condi’s off my back.
But yeah, thanks for nerfing shatter builds with your well thought out, timely suggestions.
Honestly, who lets these people on to the forums -_-u
Troll in the dungeon! The issue was chronobunk not the damage.. Completely disregarded the post and you decided to troll a constructive thread, contribute or gtfo. You probably dont even play mesmer anyway so why should you care.
Says the thief who wants to nerf all our other trait lines along with Chrono.
Before bunker chrono was a thing I was using BD and Inspiration in my zerker shatter builds. Why? Because stability stopped me getting locked down and Inspiration kept the condi’s off my back.
But yeah, thanks for nerfing shatter builds with your well thought out, timely suggestions.
Honestly, who lets these people on to the forums -_-u
Or, instead of simply getting rid of it, reduce the stability proc from all shatters to 3-4 stacks on distortion to prevent spamming stability for yourself as well as your team. Especially with CS, you can easily lay down a full shatter set of stability plus all utilities and elite and have those instantly up.
(edited by Raawk.7584)
Before bunker chrono was a thing I was using BD and Inspiration in my zerker shatter builds. Why? Because stability stopped me getting locked down and Inspiration kept the condi’s off my back.
But yeah, thanks for nerfing shatter builds with your well thought out, timely suggestions.
Honestly, who lets these people on to the forums -_-u
Or, instead of simply getting rid of it, reduce the stability proc from all shatters to 3-4 stacks on distortion to prevent spamming stability for yourself as well as your team. Especially with CS, you can easily lay down a full shatter set of stability plus all utilities and elite and have those instantly up.
Eh..
Before bunker chrono was a thing I was using BD and Inspiration in my zerker shatter builds. Why? Because stability stopped me getting locked down and Inspiration kept the condi’s off my back.
But yeah, thanks for nerfing shatter builds with your well thought out, timely suggestions.
Honestly, who lets these people on to the forums -_-u
Or, instead of simply getting rid of it, reduce the stability proc from all shatters to 3-4 stacks on distortion to prevent spamming stability for yourself as well as your team. Especially with CS, you can easily lay down a full shatter set of stability plus all utilities and elite and have those instantly up.
The stability from Bountiful Disillusionment is self-only. The only way you’re sharing that with your team is with SoI. Even with SoI on your bar AND Illusionary Inspiration traited, that’s not much team stability.
Our stab is very selfish. Same as our healing.
And I question what a couple of stacks of stability really means in a fight with ChronoBunker.
Compared to Ele, we don’t output nearly the same amount of boons to the team.
Our condi-removal was also not particularly amazing.
Better than some classes, worse than others.
Certainly enough to deal with classes that only throw 1-2 types of conditions on you in a burst.
Alacrity was a problem in PvP.
A small reduction first, and some player testing would have been best.
After all, we’re also losing the bunker amulets, so the spec is actually a bit riskier anyway.
But no. 50% reduction. No talking on the mesmer forums. Presumably no talking on reddit about it.
No pre-patch CDI. (IS ANET EVER GOING TO USE THIS ANYMORE?!)
And I highly doubt they’re even reading anything anyone here has posted.
Else they’d at least respond a bit.
I also highly doubt that anything positive for mesmer is going to come before the season starts.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
Our stab is very selfish. Same as our healing.
And I question what a couple of stacks of stability really means in a fight with ChronoBunker.Compared to Ele, we don’t output nearly the same amount of boons to the team.
Our condi-removal was also not particularly amazing.
Better than some classes, worse than others.
Certainly enough to deal with classes that only throw 1-2 types of conditions on you in a burst.
Alacrity was a problem in PvP.
A small reduction first, and some player testing would have been best.After all, we’re also losing the bunker amulets, so the spec is actually a bit riskier anyway.
But no. 50% reduction. No talking on the mesmer forums. Presumably no talking on reddit about it.
No pre-patch CDI. (IS ANET EVER GOING TO USE THIS ANYMORE?!)And I highly doubt they’re even reading anything anyone here has posted.
Else they’d at least respond a bit.I also highly doubt that anything positive for mesmer is going to come before the season starts.
Very true that the benefits were mostly selfish and worked really well with the bunk amulets but since they are being removed… The alacrity nerf is absolutely going to demolish this class spec. But honestly, since they are removing the bunk amulets i’m not sure why they would even have to nerf anything on the mesmer class. As posted in other threads, it seems like a huge overkill. I guess we can only hope that they nerf some of the power creep but.. not likely.
Chaos and Illusions are fine. The problem was indeed the alacrity, since the shatters (and everything else) had ridiculously short CDs. When taking chrono gives you shorter CDs on shatter than Illusions, you know something is wrong. But Bountiful Disillusionment and the heal on shatter are perfectly good traits.
We still haven’t seen all the changes for scepter…
“we’ll be improving upon the scepter, which will be receiving updates through skills, functionality, and traits.”
Traits is plural… so they’re adjusting more than just Malicious sorcery.
‘Updates through skills’ normally just means number adjustments.
‘Functionality’ is what is giving me hope. That gives me the impression that they bothered to address the terrible AA and maybe even the block.
Of course, a scepter revamp isn’t going to suddenly make Mesmer awesome, but its something to look forward to.
Malicious Sorcery’s attack speed increase could become really meaningful if the scepter gets a revamped AA… That’s a really big ‘if’ though
Chaos and Inspiration lines were so OP that all mesmer meta builds used them even before HoT, and mesmer was known as a tanky class…
am I right?
No the problem is
- alacrity meaning all skills (including shatters, shield block, heal, precog, etc…) had very much shorter cooldown than initially designed.
- durability rune giving boon duration on top of good stats
without the 2 points above, let’s be honest, our stability uptime is not amazing, and in general “bountiful disillusionment” and “Restorative Illusions” are not overly strong traits. A few months ago, I was actually calling to buff restorative illusions to make it heal AOE, because at this time, the support provided by the mesmer was not that good.
(edited by Silverkey.2078)
We still haven’t seen all the changes for scepter…
“we’ll be improving upon the scepter, which will be receiving updates through skills, functionality, and traits.”
Traits is plural… so they’re adjusting more than just Malicious sorcery.
‘Updates through skills’ normally just means number adjustments.
‘Functionality’ is what is giving me hope. That gives me the impression that they bothered to address the terrible AA and maybe even the block.
Of course, a scepter revamp isn’t going to suddenly make Mesmer awesome, but its something to look forward to.
Malicious Sorcery’s attack speed increase could become really meaningful if the scepter gets a revamped AA… That’s a really big ‘if’ though
My problem with even being concerned about the scepter buff, is that it doesn’t help us in WvW (outside of roaming, which who the hell really cares?).
And it doesn’t help us in PvE.
No one seriously runs condi-builds in larger content. Say your 10v10 and 15v15.
Outside of a venomshare thief in the necro party, which is literally cancer, and anyone who does that in a GvG should be permanently banned from the game.
In fact, anyone who does that in WvW should be permanently banned from the game.
I don’t care how big the zergs are, ban the cancer.
If I had my way, venoms would share with every class except necro.
And bassi venom wouldn’t be unblockable in mesmer wells/fire storm for eles. That way they’re unable to spread the cancer either.
The core problems ANet needed to handle, I don’t think are handled in this patch.
1. Bunkers aren’t dead. Only a couple of bunker builds are dead. Gratz, ANet.
2. Passive defenses are rampant. A (zerker) scrapper shouldn’t be able to waltz into a zerg by itself, get attacked by 10 people running full zerkers, and walk away into its team without dying. (That’s just 1 example. And it’s not a L2P issue, they have invuln for a very long time)
3. Attempting to balance PvE, PvP, and WvW at the same time is LITERALLY kittenING INSANE. THE SKILLS & TRAITS NEED TO BE SEPARATED ACROSS GAME MODES
And that’s just the beginning.
Lets ignore the fact that everyone has slowly been getting tired of doing the same thing over and over for years.
We need more PvP game modes.
WvW needs variety WITHOUT breaking the entire thing. Seriously, what the kitten ANet? Airships and dragon banners? Perma stealth with earth shrines? (I like the air keep buff though. That’s kittening sick. ZERG DIVE BOMBS WOULD BE kittenING AWESOME! If anyone played on the BLs…..)
PvE has needed new dungeons for a long time. People like dungeons. I like dungeons.
They have their own story, and speedrunning them is a fun challenge that everyone can enjoy to some degree.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
(edited by TheOneWhoSighs.7513)
I think Nerfing the Symptoms is a problem a whole lot of MMOs have, because due to their raw complexity it is very difficult to touch an underlying element without causing 15000 imbalances for every thing you want to improve.
That being said, it should still be done because nerfing symptoms is a terrible thing and just feels bad as a player of the class.
One example here for me is the Alacrity nerf. Why not just remove it from AWTEW? We knew that talent will get axed sooner or later, now instead all of alacrity gets nerfed? Something providing half the identity of the elite spec? If anything, Alacrity needs to be stronger, because it’s one of the elements which makes a Chronomancer different from a Mesmer, functionally.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
3. Attempting to balance PvE, PvP, and WvW at the same time is LITERALLY kittenING INSANE. THE SKILLS & TRAITS NEED TO BE SEPARATED ACROSS GAME MODES
I think this is frequently blown out of proportions and also seen as this sort-of miracle cure for the game’s balance issues by players.
In reality, I doubt very many skills are better of straight up being split instead of first reworking them. Even then, splits would be small details about number scaling in the greatest many of cases, like it was used with confusion.
Even then, do you honestly think this’ll improve balance for something as inherently screwed up as sPvP? The bigger problem is that no one wants to hear that, “sPvP won’t be balanced”. Not among the devs or their managers either I bet.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
3. Attempting to balance PvE, PvP, and WvW at the same time is LITERALLY kittenING INSANE. THE SKILLS & TRAITS NEED TO BE SEPARATED ACROSS GAME MODES
I think this is frequently blown out of proportions and also seen as this sort-of miracle cure for the game’s balance issues by players.
In reality, I doubt very many skills are better of straight up being split instead of first reworking them. Even then, splits would be small details about number scaling in the greatest many of cases, like it was used with confusion.
Even then, do you honestly think this’ll improve balance for something as inherently screwed up as sPvP? The bigger problem is that no one wants to hear that, “sPvP won’t be balanced”. Not among the devs or their managers either I bet.
" do you honestly think this’ll improve balance for something as inherently screwed up as sPvP?"
What is inherently screwed up about it? Sorry, I’m confused.
It’s literally King of the Hill with 3 points, how is that inherently screwed up?
If you’re talking about solo q, no one balances games for solo q.
If you’re talking about team qs being matched up against solo qs, again, no one balances games around solo q.
Solo Q is a toxic experience in pretty much any game I’ve ever played.
“I doubt very many skills are better of straight up being split instead of first reworking them. "
Alacrity could be stronger in PvE but weaker in PvP.
Mesmer’s sustained damage could be buffed in PvE, but left alone in PvP.
Well of Precog could stay an invuln in WvW & PvP (I’m not convinced the invuln mattered in PvP, everyone ran recall/action instead), but be a blur in PvE.
You seriously can’t think of things that would be better off being split?
You make polymorph moa an AoE in PvE, decrease the cooldown in WvW, and decrease its effective duration in PvP.
You could make veil last longer in PvP while also having a longer cooldown. You could make it something totally different in PvE. And you could leave it pretty much as is in WvW.
There’s literally an endless amount of ideas you could come up with that could all be fun and balanced based on their game mode.
It’s not “a few skills”.
There are a slew of abilities not used 99% of the time in this game, because if they’re buffed they’ll be too strong for 1 of the game modes. And in their current state, they’re too weak for all of them.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
Alacrity could be stronger in PvE but weaker in PvP.
I find it cute that people seriously think alacrity was a PvP problem. Alacrity did increase too much the mesmer defenses in PvP, but alacrity was first and foremost OP in PvE, since it did offer a huge damage increase to the whole party, making mandatory for optimal DPS. With the coming nerf, mesmer’s DPS contribution will still be good in PvE.
Mesmer’s sustained damage could be buffed in PvE, but left alone in PvP.
Mesmer would also benefit from increased sustained damage in PvP.
Well of Precog could stay an invuln in WvW & PvP (I’m not convinced the invuln mattered in PvP, everyone ran recall/action instead), but be a blur in PvE.
Precog was a tad too strong in all game modes. However, I don’t think the change they made was appropriate, and now this will be trash in all game modes.
You seriously can’t think of things that would be better off being split?
There’s literally an endless amount of ideas you could come up with that could all be fun and balanced based on their game mode.
It’s not “a few skills”.
There are a slew of abilities not used 99% of the time in this game, because if they’re buffed they’ll be too strong for 1 of the game modes. And in their current state, they’re too weak for all of them.
Very few in my opinion. PvE players often complain about the nerfs “because of PvP whiners”. The truth is that many of those nerfs are good for all game modes. Balance in PvP is bit more subtle, because you are directly comparing classes. PvE can have more unbalances without destroying too much the game mode.
For example, I remember PvE mesmers complaining about the shield block nerf (again “because of PvP whiners”). Let’s be clear, the mesmer could have 100% immunity to damage, it won’t make it that much more valuable in PvE if its DPS is low (the only thing which matters in PvE). But at the same time, that does not mean this is not OP, even in PvE.
So no, I don’t think it makes much sense to split abilities between game modes. And yes, many of the changes will probably seem to come from PvP, simply because this is the place which has the most need for accurate balance. Any remaining unbalance in any game mode is not the fault of the other game modes, but truly the fault of developers.
Alacrity could be stronger in PvE but weaker in PvP.
I find it cute that people seriously think alacrity was a PvP problem. Alacrity did increase too much the mesmer defenses in PvP, but alacrity was first and foremost OP in PvE, since it did offer a huge damage increase to the whole party, making mandatory for optimal DPS. With the coming nerf, mesmer’s DPS contribution will still be good in PvE.
Mesmer’s sustained damage could be buffed in PvE, but left alone in PvP.
Mesmer would also benefit from increased sustained damage in PvP.
Well of Precog could stay an invuln in WvW & PvP (I’m not convinced the invuln mattered in PvP, everyone ran recall/action instead), but be a blur in PvE.
Precog was a tad too strong in all game modes. However, I don’t think the change they made was appropriate, and now this will be trash in all game modes.
You seriously can’t think of things that would be better off being split?
There’s literally an endless amount of ideas you could come up with that could all be fun and balanced based on their game mode.
It’s not “a few skills”.
There are a slew of abilities not used 99% of the time in this game, because if they’re buffed they’ll be too strong for 1 of the game modes. And in their current state, they’re too weak for all of them.
Very few in my opinion. PvE players often complain about the nerfs “because of PvP whiners”. The truth is that many of those nerfs are good for all game modes. Balance in PvP is bit more subtle, because you are directly comparing classes. PvE can have more unbalances without destroying too much the game mode.
For example, I remember PvE mesmers complaining about the shield block nerf (again “because of PvP whiners”). Let’s be clear, the mesmer could have 100% immunity to damage, it won’t make it that much more valuable in PvE if its DPS is low (the only thing which matters in PvE). But at the same time, that does not mean this is not OP, even in PvE.
So no, I don’t think it makes much sense to split abilities between game modes. And yes, many of the changes will probably seem to come from PvP, simply because this is the place which has the most need for accurate balance. Any remaining unbalance in any game mode is not the fault of the other game modes, but truly the fault of developers.
1. Mesmers have kitten sustained DPS in PvE. If we’re min-maxing, there’s a point when a fight has lasted long enough that a mesmer is no longer as valuable as another damage class.
Our utility is really all we’re bringing to the table. So ofc it’s powerful. It has to be powerful or else we just won’t be brought.
25% increase in party DPS, down to what is likely to be roughly 10%.
You think another warrior won’t fill that slot? Because I think another warrior will fill that slot and increase DPS more.
2. Ofc we would benefit from more sustained DPS in PvP. But ANet doesn’t appear to want us to have sustained DPS in PvP. We’re a “burst mage assassin”. So I’d like us to be sustainable in PvE at the very least.
3. I respectfully disagree with pretty much everything else you’ve said.
Not being able to balance 3 game modes at the exact same time, without separating the 3, isn’t the developers fault in any way other than that they haven’t separated the 3.
These game modes are very different from one another. One or more of them are going to be out of balance pretty much always.
Other competitive games can sort of get away with this, because their different modes have ban lists. (And are all centered around PvP)
Take your competitive 3v3 on LoL vs Competitive 5v5. You’re going to ban different champs.
Or highlander on TF2 vs 6v6. Both of which have different restrictions, rules, and ban lists on in game weapons.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
WvW needs variety WITHOUT breaking the entire thing. Seriously, what the kitten ANet? Airships and dragon banners? Perma stealth with earth shrines? (I like the air keep buff though. That’s kittening sick. ZERG DIVE BOMBS WOULD BE kittenING AWESOME! If anyone played on the BLs…..)
LMAO my guild has been waiting for an opportunity to try this.
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro