Guild Wars 2

So Anet nerfed DP thief for spending far too much time in stealth and then later gave mesmer the ability to reset/engage as they see in literally any build (condi or shatter/power). I don’t mind the dps; that’s fine - but guess what is really hard to counter - 3-4 decoys/clones waiting in stealth with a mesmer in perma stealth waiting for his wrack to be up and blink/1 shot you. Oh you survived that blink/shat/boon clear? All good, the mes still has a few insta stuns on demand in case he didn’t wreck you. Oh you got downed but the mes is trying to stomp? Dun worry; invul stomp ftw. Oh you got rallied but are running; all good greatsword power dps is one of the best in da game!

Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion, but my god - the amount of stealth mes’ get now makes it literally impossible to counter-play in any respectable way - it’s a guessing game, and most importantly, it’s really boring to play against.

Clones aren’t waiting in stealth, they continue attacking.

I’m all for nerfing PU, but let’s fix The Pledge first and see how this turns out.

docMed you have no idea what you’re talking about and nearly everything you have said is gross exaggeration or flat out wrong.

DP thief has more on demand stealth and can stealth allies easier than mesmer.
Clones don’t sit in stealth, in fact the auto attack and break out of stealth.
DP thieves have the same amount of teleports if not more.

Seriously how do you fair against thieves because they will eat you for breakfast as the bursts are not too different in amount of damage and a thief can rip 2 boons from you.

They can also do their backstab about every 5-7s or just follow up with HS/shadowshot to keep the damage on.

Lets face it, the only thing Thief is better than mesmer is in the mobility department. Everything else Mesmer does better. There’s nothing like summoning Phantasms from ranged and chunking the enemy or blowing their dodge while still being in stealth. D/P Thief stealth is on demand true, but can be interrupted unless they carry black powder to blast it. The usual D/P BP+HS combo however can be interrupted and can punish the thief pretty heavily. Meanwhile mesmers pretty much get free passes to one shot almost any zerker build just because of the extended stealth durations and rewards being in stealth with really strong defensive boons, on top of that, invulns and blinds.

Short story/ Mesmers are Thieves 2.0, though with lower mobility.

apharma.3741:

docMed you have no idea what you’re talking about and nearly everything you have said is gross exaggeration or flat out wrong.

DP thief has more on demand stealth and can stealth allies easier than mesmer.
Clones don’t sit in stealth, in fact the auto attack and break out of stealth.
DP thieves have the same amount of teleports if not more.

Seriously how do you fair against thieves because they will eat you for breakfast as the bursts are not too different in amount of damage and a thief can rip 2 boons from you.

They can also do their backstab about every 5-7s or just follow up with HS/shadowshot to keep the damage on.

How does one fair against thieves? I think it truly depends on your Mesmer build to be quite honest. Just a day ago, I dueled against a D/D thief and a D/P thief in WvW. Both had Beserker gear and trinkets with food. I run a condi PU Mesmer and fighting both thieves during separate duels definitely resulted in me winning due to my build/ and skill.

The D/D thief was extremely easy to fight, I mostly baited him out of stealth, while I applied confusion and torment to him. When he re-entered stealth, I too entered stealth and baited him once more with clones. We dueled each other about 5 times and I won each duel.

The D/P Thief was definitely more skilled and aware of my condi burst potential than the D/D thief. I had to really watch him as he tried to bait me into chasing him a bit to apply my conditions, only to enter stealth and try to backstab me. Which he did land a few and they did take a chunk out of my health. However, I was smart enough to apply stacks of confusion and torment as soon as he emerged from stealth. We fought for a total of 3 times, and I won each duel. His only complaint was that it was the torment stacks that he had trouble with.

So point is, while power based Mesmer builds have a harder time fighting thieves, Condition Mesmers have no issue fighting them, as long as the player is skilled enough and refrains from mashing their keyboard.

P.S:) One does need skill and patience when playing a PU condi Mesmer.

Um Purecura, you didn’t just miss the point, you’re in a whole other galaxy.

My point was that thieves can be just as if not more annoying and infuriating to fight as Mesmer both condition and power variety, especially on the badly made points he discussed.

That isn’t just from a Mesmer perspective either. Thieves in WvW are a pain if played smartly.

The build you’re talking about can’t do all the things you described.
From your description, here is the only viable build that fits all the criteria:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAsfRlsnha0YZawRNwtGLnGkZL22MIDwCWOaE6+3B-TZRCABTt/Q7lBE+IAAwDAwiTBAA

But, this build can’t create “3-4 decoys/clones” while in stealth, nevermind that 4 clones is impossible, since you cap at 3, and there’s no value to creating a clone in stealth and then overwriting it. (and apharma already mentioned the silliness of saying that illusions can be waiting in stealth. I mean, seriously?)

Plus, perma-stealth is impossible on mesmer. In fact, the very most you can get with the build described is 50% stealth uptime. That’s a far cry from the 100% you can (still) get on a thief.

“Oh you got downed but the mes is trying to stomp? Dun worry; invul stomp ftw”
Um, how often do you survive a stomp in a duel? Like, ever? Some classes don’t even have a way to interrupt the stomp. Mesmers don’t need to pop distortion to stomp in a duel, they can just let you use your one-shot interrupt and then come back for you, and there’s not a kitten thing you can do about it.

“Oh you got rallied but are running; all good greatsword power dps is one of the best in da game!”
No it isn’t? Greatsword is great burst damage, but only up close, and combined with shatters. The AA is really weak, and it doesn’t help you stop a fleeing opponent. Landing the iBerserker is their best shot to try to get some cripple on you, but a fleeing opponent can get out of that pretty quick.
This mesmer is slooow. His only swiftness source is from stealth, and not reliably.
His only immobilize is short-range, his only cripple (berserker) is easy to dodge on the run, and his only stuns are from his mantra, which is on cooldown because he used it during the fight, and his f4 shatter, which can’t hit a fleeing target. He probably can’t catch you, and he can’t kill you from range if you keep running.

Your post isn’t just an exaggeration, it doesn’t even fit the mechanics of the class.

I’ll tell you what we should be telling everyone who comes in here to whine after they get rocked by a mesmer in a duel:

If you can’t be kittened to learn the mechanics of the class you’re annoyed by, don’t come into that class’s forum to whine about it.

Do your research first. Play a mesmer, study the mesmer, figure out what it was you didn’t understand about the fight you just lost. Because it’s clear from your post, OP, that you haven’t a clue.

Yo everyone needs to chill out a bit here, I stated outright; Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion. Happy Monday and have a good week all

Rizigmar.2681:

Lets face it, the only thing Thief is better than mesmer is in the mobility department. Everything else Mesmer does better. There’s nothing like summoning Phantasms from ranged and chunking the enemy or blowing their dodge while still being in stealth. D/P Thief stealth is on demand true, but can be interrupted unless they carry black powder to blast it. The usual D/P BP+HS combo however can be interrupted and can punish the thief pretty heavily. Meanwhile mesmers pretty much get free passes to one shot almost any zerker build just because of the extended stealth durations and rewards being in stealth with really strong defensive boons, on top of that, invulns and blinds.

Short story/ Mesmers are Thieves 2.0, though with lower mobility.

This is a good summary of my thoughts; although I would still say thieves are comparable in a lot of departments.

docMed.7692:

Yo everyone needs to chill out a bit here, I stated outright; Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion. Happy Monday and have a good week all

Exaggerations that misstate the basic mechanics of the class aren’t worth the bits it took to post them.

Your “disclaimer” is just a meaningless way to try to cover your ignorance.

Exaggerated or not, your complaint is meaningless if it doesn’t fit with what’s possible.

Do have a good week, though.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Yo everyone needs to chill out a bit here, I stated outright; Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion. Happy Monday and have a good week all

Exaggerations that misstate the basic mechanics of the class aren’t worth the bits it took to post them.

Your “disclaimer” is just a meaningless way to try to cover your ignorance.

Exaggerated or not, your complaint is meaningless if it doesn’t fit with what’s possible.

Do have a good week, though.

What did I miss exactly here? A Mesmer can mass >> phantasm >> double dodge and blink/wrack; which they can do at any point during the 10 seconds they spend in stealth. It is correct though that any clones/etc in stealth will break; that’s hardly the issue though.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

The build you’re talking about can’t do all the things you described.
From your description, here is the only viable build that fits all the criteria:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAsfRlsnha0YZawRNwtGLnGkZL22MIDwCWOaE6+3B-TZRCABTt/Q7lBE+IAAwDAwiTBAA

But, this build can’t create “3-4 decoys/clones” while in stealth, nevermind that 4 clones is impossible, since you cap at 3, and there’s no value to creating a clone in stealth and then overwriting it. (and apharma already mentioned the silliness of saying that illusions can be waiting in stealth. I mean, seriously?)

Plus, perma-stealth is impossible on mesmer. In fact, the very most you can get with the build described is 50% stealth uptime. That’s a far cry from the 100% you can (still) get on a thief.

“Oh you got downed but the mes is trying to stomp? Dun worry; invul stomp ftw”
Um, how often do you survive a stomp in a duel? Like, ever? Some classes don’t even have a way to interrupt the stomp. Mesmers don’t need to pop distortion to stomp in a duel, they can just let you use your one-shot interrupt and then come back for you, and there’s not a kitten thing you can do about it.

“Oh you got rallied but are running; all good greatsword power dps is one of the best in da game!”
No it isn’t? Greatsword is great burst damage, but only up close, and combined with shatters. The AA is really weak, and it doesn’t help you stop a fleeing opponent. Landing the iBerserker is their best shot to try to get some cripple on you, but a fleeing opponent can get out of that pretty quick.
This mesmer is slooow. His only swiftness source is from stealth, and not reliably.
His only immobilize is short-range, his only cripple (berserker) is easy to dodge on the run, and his only stuns are from his mantra, which is on cooldown because he used it during the fight, and his f4 shatter, which can’t hit a fleeing target. He probably can’t catch you, and he can’t kill you from range if you keep running.

Your post isn’t just an exaggeration, it doesn’t even fit the mechanics of the class.

I’ll tell you what we should be telling everyone who comes in here to whine after they get rocked by a mesmer in a duel:

If you can’t be kittened to learn the mechanics of the class you’re annoyed by, don’t come into that class’s forum to whine about it.

Do your research first. Play a mesmer, study the mesmer, figure out what it was you didn’t understand about the fight you just lost. Because it’s clear from your post, OP, that you haven’t a clue.

Do you not know how to greatsword 1/auto cancel? lol

docMed.7692:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Yo everyone needs to chill out a bit here, I stated outright; Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion. Happy Monday and have a good week all

Exaggerations that misstate the basic mechanics of the class aren’t worth the bits it took to post them.

Your “disclaimer” is just a meaningless way to try to cover your ignorance.

Exaggerated or not, your complaint is meaningless if it doesn’t fit with what’s possible.

Do have a good week, though.

What did I miss exactly here? A Mesmer can mass >> phantasm >> double dodge and blink/wrack; which they can do at any point during the 10 seconds they spend in stealth. It is correct though that any clones/etc in stealth will break; that’s hardly the issue though.

Look at the build. You can’t create clones with dodge, because that trait is in the Dueling line, and the build you described by definition must have Illusions, Chaos and Domination as its specs.

Doesn’t help that blink and decoy are the mesmer’s stunbreaks.
If he did as you say, he’s got no cc mitigation left.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Yo everyone needs to chill out a bit here, I stated outright; Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion. Happy Monday and have a good week all

Exaggerations that misstate the basic mechanics of the class aren’t worth the bits it took to post them.

Your “disclaimer” is just a meaningless way to try to cover your ignorance.

Exaggerated or not, your complaint is meaningless if it doesn’t fit with what’s possible.

Do have a good week, though.

What did I miss exactly here? A Mesmer can mass >> phantasm >> double dodge and blink/wrack; which they can do at any point during the 10 seconds they spend in stealth. It is correct though that any clones/etc in stealth will break; that’s hardly the issue though.

Look at the build. You can’t create clones with dodge, because that trait is in the Dueling line, and the build you described by definition must have Illusions, Chaos and Domination as its specs.

Doesn’t help that blink and decoy are the mesmer’s stunbreaks.
If he did as you say, he’s got no cc mitigation left.

So are we going to continue to ignore the 10 seconds of stealth as I mentioned here lol? I’m happy to say I’m wrong about having clones on dodge; doesn’t change the counter-play aspect or reset aspect I brought up continuously here.

The raging outsider is right, PU is disgusting atm. I don’t think there’s any other trait in the game that is as overpowered as PU. Not only does it double your stealth uptime and stack you with boons, it also makes it a lot harder to counterplay the burst.

Revert it back to +1 second and it would still be perfectly viable grandmaster trait. Maybe put a super speed or something on it.

docMed.7692:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Yo everyone needs to chill out a bit here, I stated outright; Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion. Happy Monday and have a good week all

Exaggerations that misstate the basic mechanics of the class aren’t worth the bits it took to post them.

Your “disclaimer” is just a meaningless way to try to cover your ignorance.

Exaggerated or not, your complaint is meaningless if it doesn’t fit with what’s possible.

Do have a good week, though.

What did I miss exactly here? A Mesmer can mass >> phantasm >> double dodge and blink/wrack; which they can do at any point during the 10 seconds they spend in stealth. It is correct though that any clones/etc in stealth will break; that’s hardly the issue though.

Look at the build. You can’t create clones with dodge, because that trait is in the Dueling line, and the build you described by definition must have Illusions, Chaos and Domination as its specs.

Doesn’t help that blink and decoy are the mesmer’s stunbreaks.
If he did as you say, he’s got no cc mitigation left.

So are we going to continue to ignore the 10 seconds of stealth as I mentioned here lol? I’m happy to say I’m wrong about having clones on dodge; doesn’t change the counter-play aspect or reset aspect I brought up continuously here.

You brought up a specific combo, which relied on getting a whole bunch of clones while stealthed. The 10s stealth is rather irrelevant, as they can’t pull the combo you are whining about. Doesn’t mean 10s of stealth isn’t strong.
And frankly, you didn’t come in here whining about 10s of stealth, you came in here whining about “perma-stealth”, which isn’t even remotely possible with the build you are whining about.

Let’s add to that your original, crazy premise, that somehow thieves have been unseated by mesmer stealth.
MI = 10s stealth after a 1.75s channel, and it’s an elite skill.
Shadow Refuge = 15s stealth, but you have to stay in the circle for 3s, and it’s a utility skill.

Ta da, thief has already beat mesmer’s #1 invisibility skill. But we don’t have to stop there, and really we shouldn’t, since the mesmer in question also has The Prestige and Decoy.

Black Powder+Blinding Powder = 7s stealth with kitten channel and a 40s cooldown. That’s 1s longer than decoy, with the same utility slot investment.
If you can get a heartseeker strike out of the black powder as well, that’ll take you to 11s of stealth, and now you’re only 1s stealth less than decoy and the prestige together.
Oh, but we can get 4s from Hide In Shadows, so that puts us at 15s of stealth, which is now MORE than decoy and the prestige!
So our theoretical mesmer has now taken an inferior offhand weapon, 1 utility and 1 elite skill to get 10+12=22s of stealth.
Our theoretical thief has taken 2 utilities and 1 heal skill to get 15+15=30s of stealth.
And the thief can go deeper too, if he wants. Stealth on steal for more in-combat stealth, smoke screen+shortbow for infinite stealth, multiple heartseeker strikes through black powder for extra stealth…
You really don’t have a leg to stand on in your thesis that mesmers are “the new perma-stealth DP thief”. Thieves still have more stealth, still can perma-stealth, and mesmers can’t even get close.

The only part about mesmer stealth that is excessive is the fact that with The Pledge (torch trait), you can pop Decoy, The Prestige, and MI, then pop The Prestige again 13s later (before you lose stealth), putting your stealth at 28s, then pop The Prestige again before that runs out, putting you at 34s, then pop decoy before that runs out, putting you at 40s, then pop The Prestige again to get up to 46s of continuous stealth. That’s pretty excessive (nevermind that thieves can get 50,60,70,…,indefinite stealth).
That’s not because of PU though, that’s because of The Pledge being bugged to add more cooldown reduction than it’s supposed to…which I agree with you needs to be changed.

And The Pledge doesn’t change the fact that the Dom/Illusions/Chaos build you described can only spawn one clone in stealth per 32 seconds, and only when he starts decoy.

It also doesn’t change the fact that if you ever do see a mesmer popping clones without coming out of stealth, you can just kill the clones. It’s not like it hurts you to kill them.

I agree PU is a bit too strong.

But all those long/perma stealth builds people cry about are actually trash. Its only function is to troll people.

Noss.4105:

The raging outsider is right, PU is disgusting atm. I don’t think there’s any other trait in the game that is as overpowered as PU. Not only does it double your stealth uptime and stack you with boons, it also makes it a lot harder to counterplay the burst.

Revert it back to +1 second and it would still be perfectly viable grandmaster trait. Maybe put a super speed or something on it.

See my math above. PU itself is still giving considerably less stealth than thieves get.
The real kicker is The Pledge, which is bugged to be working too well, and frankly gives kind of a perverse incentive to stay in stealth longer to get even more stealth.

Additionally, I’d say there’s all of 0% of good pvp mesmer players who would agree that there’s not “any other trait in the game that is as overpowered as PU”.
I’d also say there’s maybe 0% of good pvp mesmer players who would agree that “Revert it back to +1 second and it would still be perfectly viable grandmaster trait.”
That, of course, is largely because most of them use Chaotic Interruption or Bountiful Dissipation instead, because stealth in pvp prevents capping, and CI/BD are incredible traits. It’s also clearly not overpowered in PvE, where thieves being able to permastealth their party is a selling point that no one whines about.

So it’s only an issue in WvW. Except in WvW, stealth does no good in the zerg, because being invisible means you’re not doing damage. And mesmers do terrible damage in large group combat, so it’s not a problem in WvW group combat.
So it’s only an issue in WvW roaming, which is so marginal that saying something as mind-numbingly ignorant as “I don’t think there’s any other trait in the game that is as overpowered as PU” is rather foolish.

In other words, you are wrong, you haven’t done any math, you’ve probably never tried to play the build you’re talking about, and if you did you made sure you had The Pledge equipped.
You’re just raging to rage, and you should feel bad.

@AlphatheWhite.9351
I’d say you didn’t write anything to change my mind. “You’re wrong because I think 0% of good mesmers agree with you” doesn’t really do it.
I have played PU a little bit after the patch, but I don’t really like to play anything that I think is OP. Mostly I use common sense and compare it to other grandmaster traits.

Also, is there actually people who think Bountiful Disillusionment is incredible trait?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Yo everyone needs to chill out a bit here, I stated outright; Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion. Happy Monday and have a good week all

Exaggerations that misstate the basic mechanics of the class aren’t worth the bits it took to post them.

Your “disclaimer” is just a meaningless way to try to cover your ignorance.

Exaggerated or not, your complaint is meaningless if it doesn’t fit with what’s possible.

Do have a good week, though.

What did I miss exactly here? A Mesmer can mass >> phantasm >> double dodge and blink/wrack; which they can do at any point during the 10 seconds they spend in stealth. It is correct though that any clones/etc in stealth will break; that’s hardly the issue though.

Look at the build. You can’t create clones with dodge, because that trait is in the Dueling line, and the build you described by definition must have Illusions, Chaos and Domination as its specs.

Doesn’t help that blink and decoy are the mesmer’s stunbreaks.
If he did as you say, he’s got no cc mitigation left.

So are we going to continue to ignore the 10 seconds of stealth as I mentioned here lol? I’m happy to say I’m wrong about having clones on dodge; doesn’t change the counter-play aspect or reset aspect I brought up continuously here.

You brought up a specific combo, which relied on getting a whole bunch of clones while stealthed. The 10s stealth is rather irrelevant, as they can’t pull the combo you are whining about. Doesn’t mean 10s of stealth isn’t strong.
And frankly, you didn’t come in here whining about 10s of stealth, you came in here whining about “perma-stealth”, which isn’t even remotely possible with the build you are whining about.

Let’s add to that your original, crazy premise, that somehow thieves have been unseated by mesmer stealth.
MI = 10s stealth after a 1.75s channel, and it’s an elite skill.
Shadow Refuge = 15s stealth, but you have to stay in the circle for 3s, and it’s a utility skill.

Ta da, thief has already beat mesmer’s #1 invisibility skill. But we don’t have to stop there, and really we shouldn’t, since the mesmer in question also has The Prestige and Decoy.

Black Powder+Blinding Powder = 7s stealth with kitten channel and a 40s cooldown. That’s 1s longer than decoy, with the same utility slot investment.
If you can get a heartseeker strike out of the black powder as well, that’ll take you to 11s of stealth, and now you’re only 1s stealth less than decoy and the prestige together.
Oh, but we can get 4s from Hide In Shadows, so that puts us at 15s of stealth, which is now MORE than decoy and the prestige!
So our theoretical mesmer has now taken an inferior offhand weapon, 1 utility and 1 elite skill to get 10+12=22s of stealth.
Our theoretical thief has taken 2 utilities and 1 heal skill to get 15+15=30s of stealth.
And the thief can go deeper too, if he wants. Stealth on steal for more in-combat stealth, smoke screen+shortbow for infinite stealth, multiple heartseeker strikes through black powder for extra stealth…
You really don’t have a leg to stand on in your thesis that mesmers are “the new perma-stealth DP thief”. Thieves still have more stealth, still can perma-stealth, and mesmers can’t even get close.

The only part about mesmer stealth that is excessive is the fact that with The Pledge (torch trait), you can pop Decoy, The Prestige, and MI, then pop The Prestige again 13s later (before you lose stealth), putting your stealth at 28s, then pop The Prestige again before that runs out, putting you at 34s, then pop decoy before that runs out, putting you at 40s, then pop The Prestige again to get up to 46s of continuous stealth. That’s pretty excessive (nevermind that thieves can get 50,60,70,…,indefinite stealth).
That’s not because of PU though, that’s because of The Pledge being bugged to add more cooldown reduction than it’s supposed to…which I agree with you needs to be changed.

And The Pledge doesn’t change the fact that the Dom/Illusions/Chaos build you described can only spawn one clone in stealth per 32 seconds, and only when he starts decoy.

It also doesn’t change the fact that if you ever do see a mesmer popping clones without coming out of stealth, you can just kill the clones. It’s not like it hurts you to kill them.

Tldr please

docMed.7692:

Tldr please

No. The problem in the first place is you whining without doing your homework.
I brought the homework to you, and you still won’t read it. Study or gtfo.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Tldr please

No. The problem in the first place is you whining without doing your homework.
I brought the homework to you, and you still won’t read it. Study or gtfo.

Haha. This thread is getting good.

docMed.7692:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Tldr please

No. The problem in the first place is you whining without doing your homework.
I brought the homework to you, and you still won’t read it. Study or gtfo.

Haha. This thread is getting good.

Noss.4105:

@AlphatheWhite.9351
I’d say you didn’t write anything to change my mind. “You’re wrong because I think 0% of good mesmers agree with you” doesn’t really do it.
I have played PU a little bit after the patch, but I don’t really like to play anything that I think is OP. Mostly I use common sense and compare it to other grandmaster traits.

Also, is there actually people who think Bountiful Disillusionment is incredible trait?

I do!

Try a little humility and tact and you might get somewhere. Until then /zzz

Noss.4105:

@AlphatheWhite.9351
I’d say you didn’t write anything to change my mind. “You’re wrong because I think 0% of good mesmers agree with you” doesn’t really do it.
I have played PU a little bit after the patch, but I don’t really like to play anything that I think is OP. Mostly I use common sense and compare it to other grandmaster traits.

Also, is there actually people who think Bountiful Disillusionment is incredible trait?

Paging Pyro, Pyro are you there?

Stability on stomps = amazeballs.
3 stacks of 15s might on Mind Wrack is very good.
Vigor is passable, especially for power-shatter builds who don’t have another use for Cry of Frustration, fury is meh (only because of Dueling), regeneration when you use distortion also procs protection from illusionary membrane, so Distortion procs regen and protection, which is all kinds of sweet.

…did you actually read the ability?

docMed.7692:

Try a little humility and tact and you might get somewhere. Until then /zzz

Your original post is a little knot of ignorance.

You disrespect the entire forum when you come in here complaining about the topic of the forum without doing the minimum required research to double-check your facts.

To be humble is to be teachable, or willing to revise your own views on careful examination of the views of another, or the facts presented.
Having examined your opinion and found it to be both incorrect factually and disrespectful to those who frequent this forum, I gave my response accordingly.

Your efforts to cover for your ignorance and disrespect by first pretending that a “this is an exaggeration!” disclaimer is at all meaningful, then implying that you’re trolling, and then pretending that facts are irrelevant if you don’t like my tone, are all just smoke and mirrors, fooling no one.

Taking your own tack, I’d be inclined to apologize for my tone if you’d display enough humility to admit that you were wrong, as I have abundantly shown that you were. Your failure to admit your own failings makes your calls for humility too hypocritical to be worthy of consideration.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Noss.4105:

The raging outsider is right, PU is disgusting atm. I don’t think there’s any other trait in the game that is as overpowered as PU. Not only does it double your stealth uptime and stack you with boons, it also makes it a lot harder to counterplay the burst.

Revert it back to +1 second and it would still be perfectly viable grandmaster trait. Maybe put a super speed or something on it.

See my math above. PU itself is still giving considerably less stealth than thieves get.
The real kicker is The Pledge, which is bugged to be working too well, and frankly gives kind of a perverse incentive to stay in stealth longer to get even more stealth.

Additionally, I’d say there’s all of 0% of good pvp mesmer players who would agree that there’s not “any other trait in the game that is as overpowered as PU”.
I’d also say there’s maybe 0% of good pvp mesmer players who would agree that “Revert it back to +1 second and it would still be perfectly viable grandmaster trait.”
That, of course, is largely because most of them use Chaotic Interruption or Bountiful Dissipation instead, because stealth in pvp prevents capping, and CI/BD are incredible traits. It’s also clearly not overpowered in PvE, where thieves being able to permastealth their party is a selling point that no one whines about.

So it’s only an issue in WvW. Except in WvW, stealth does no good in the zerg, because being invisible means you’re not doing damage. And mesmers do terrible damage in large group combat, so it’s not a problem in WvW group combat.
So it’s only an issue in WvW roaming, which is so marginal that saying something as mind-numbingly ignorant as “I don’t think there’s any other trait in the game that is as overpowered as PU” is rather foolish.

In other words, you are wrong, you haven’t done any math, you’ve probably never tried to play the build you’re talking about, and if you did you made sure you had The Pledge equipped.
You’re just raging to rage, and you should feel bad.

Good to know you speak on the behalf of all the the good mesmers. I’ve played PU on both a power spec and a condi spec and it’s pretty much the most relaxing thing I’ve ever played because nothing will bother me except other PU mesmers. If I get focused I’ll drop off radar easily and reposition.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Noss.4105:

@AlphatheWhite.9351
I’d say you didn’t write anything to change my mind. “You’re wrong because I think 0% of good mesmers agree with you” doesn’t really do it.
I have played PU a little bit after the patch, but I don’t really like to play anything that I think is OP. Mostly I use common sense and compare it to other grandmaster traits.

Also, is there actually people who think Bountiful Disillusionment is incredible trait?

Paging Pyro, Pyro are you there?

Stability on stomps = amazeballs.
3 stacks of 15s might on Mind Wrack is very good.
Vigor is passable, especially for power-shatter builds who don’t have another use for Cry of Frustration, fury is meh (only because of Dueling), regeneration when you use distortion also procs protection from illusionary membrane, so Distortion procs regen and protection, which is all kinds of sweet.

…did you actually read the ability?

Stability is OK, but it’s not that good on mesmer due the nature of the profession.
3x might, ok.. ish.
5s of vigor on CoF. Weak.
You pointed out the fury.
Great, you get 3s of protection while you have distortion. Regen isn’t really something to be excited about with zerker gear.

If you play some kind of bunker mesmer, then i guess it could be ok to take BD for the stability.

Rizigmar.2681:

Good to know you speak on the behalf of all the the good mesmers. I’ve played PU on both a power spec and a condi spec and it’s pretty much the most relaxing thing I’ve ever played because nothing will bother me except other PU mesmers.

In sPvP?
I run PU on my condi mesmer, but that’s mostly because I find that I’m just not good enough to do without the defensive benefits. Unfortunately, I find that utilizing it fully loses me more objectives than I’d like, and I look forward to the day when I don’t need it anymore. I really, really want to be able to have that stability on stomp.

I love it in WvW roaming though, as it actually lets me, you know, roam. I abuse The Pledge unabashedly, too. I’ll call for nerfs and bug fixes, but I’ll be kitten ed if I restrict myself by arbitrary rules of “fair play” in an unmediated environment.

I do apologize for my hyperbole, my view of what good pvp mesmers play is colored entirely by the videos and live feeds I’ve watched show, as I’m not good enough myself to be part of that company.
Few if any of the better mesmers I’ve watched use PU beyond some experimentation, I imagine because the benefits of the competing traits and lines were too strong.
The most use I saw out of PU in sPvP vids was a back-capping power-shatter that would show up to fights just long enough to annihilate someone, then leave to go cap something else. It was pretty cool, but it didn’t seem like he had enough support on the rest of the team for it to be more effective than a non-PU build.

Edit: if you have some videos of high-tier pvp play that makes heavy use of PU, I’d really love to see them. I’m always looking to better understand the playstyle of my betters :P

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Try a little humility and tact and you might get somewhere. Until then /zzz

Your original post is a little knot of ignorance.

You disrespect the entire forum when you come in here complaining about the topic of the forum without doing the minimum required research to double-check your facts.

To be humble is to be teachable, or willing to revise your own views on careful examination of the views of another, or the facts presented.
Having examined your opinion and found it to be both incorrect factually and disrespectful to those who frequent this forum, I gave my response accordingly.

Your efforts to cover for your ignorance and disrespect by first pretending that a "this is an exaggeration!" disclaimer is at all meaningful, then implying that you’re trolling, and then pretending that facts are irrelevant if you don’t like my tone, are all just smoke and mirrors, fooling no one.

Taking your own tack, I’d be inclined to apologize for my tone if you’d display enough _humility_ to admit that you were wrong, as I have abundantly shown that you were. Your failure to admit your own failings makes your calls for humility too hypocritical to be worthy of consideration.

Your inclination to take every statement as a blatant attack is your own arrogance at play; to further establish yourself as the voice of this sub-forum is foolish at minimum. If you read up you would also note my admittances, but that would require effort beyond your own walls of text.

On a side note, don’t you feel a bit embarrassed using bold and _callouts_ to try and establish your comments as some standalone epiphany? It screams a lack of intelligence and is even that much more entertaining when you’re clearly trying to present yourself as having any.

Noss.4105:

Stability is OK, but it’s not that good on mesmer due the nature of the profession.

I don’t know what that means. Mesmers don’t get a magic “get out of cc free” card, we have to use stunbreaks like everybody else. And cc-free stomps are cc-free stomps, whether you’re a mesmer, thief or ele.

Noss.4105:

3x might, ok.. ish.

Well, what other sources of might are you getting? 15s is pretty long for mesmer might, and being on Mind Wrack you’ll be able to get it every 10.5s, which means you’ll have double stacks for a decent term.
Add to that (and the vigor/fury) the fact that every boon on you gives you increased boon and condi duration via Chaotic Persistance, and the extra boons you can get translate into good side benefits.

Noss.4105:

5s of vigor on CoF. Weak.
You pointed out the fury.

See the above about Chaotic Persistance. Every boon is a benefit to a condi build, and more boons means longer boon duration.
Additionally, careful how you dismiss vigor. There’s a reason so many people consider Sigil of Energy so essential, and our best source of vigor (Critical Infusion) only gives 5s on a 10s icd.

Noss.4105:

Great, you get 3s of protection while you have distortion. Regen isn’t really something to be excited about with zerker gear.

Distortion doesn’t stack (or at least, it didn’t historically?), so unless you spaced your illusions out so perfectly that they each shatter 1s after the one before, you’re not gonna get 3s of distortion out of it. You’ll be lucky if you get much more than 2s total, in pvp, even assuming you had 3 illusions up when you popped it. And if you do get 2s, it’ll be because your illusion didn’t reach the target before your distortion dropped off, so you have a window of vulnerability where the extra damage reduction from protection will still pay off.
And after all that, having protection for a second after distortion wears off is still valuable, as smart opponents will be holding off on part of their burst to hit you when your distortion wears out.
Regeneration is often even more valuable on a berserker because of their low hp. With a low health pool, every little bit helps.

I don’t know about you, but I tend to pop distortion most when I’m in trouble and really need the defense. Regeneration during those 1-2s of distortion and the following 1-2s of protection can be the difference between life and death…or between leaving the point alone, and having enough hp to return to the fight after 3s of stealth.

Noss.4105:

If you play some kind of bunker mesmer, then i guess it could be ok to take BD for the stability.

Well then, I guess there’s one use case you hadn’t accounted for before.

I’ve gotta ask, though, why you’re going PU on a berserker build, anyway? ’
You can get plenty of stealth without PU in sPvP for ambushes, and you’ll be much much better served for dps by going a different line than Chaos.

Iavra.8510:

Clones aren’t waiting in stealth, they continue attacking.

I’m all for nerfing PU, but let’s fix The Pledge first and see how this turns out.

Dont fix the pledge. It is actually a good trait. No good mesmer currently takes the pledge or the illusions line. For gods sake dont nerf it.

docMed.7692:

Your inclination to take every statement as a blatant attack is your own arrogance at play;

Suggesting I have more humility and tact is an attack.
My other ridicule is not regarding your attitude toward me, but your disrespect in making declarations in a forum without doing basic fact-checking about those declarations.

docMed.7692:

to further establish yourself as the voice of this sub-forum is foolish at minimum.

I don’t need to be able to speak for the forum to point out disrespect, and I don’t claim to speak for more than my observations of the general tenor of posts I have read.

docMed.7692:

If you read up you would also note my admittances, but that would require effort beyond your own walls of text.

Looking back, I do see you admitted you were wrong about stealthed clones and clone generation. I apologize for not acknowledging that.
I don’t apologize for what followed, as you responded to my rebuttal by refusing to do the work to understand it, which again, is exactly what got this all started in the first place.

docMed.7692:

On a side note, don’t you feel a bit embarrassed using bold and callouts to try and establish your comments as some standalone epiphany? It screams a lack of intelligence and is even that much more entertaining when you’re clearly trying to present yourself as having any.

Bold and italics are used for emphasis. I use the tools of emphasis available to my medium, as speakers and writers always have.
This is kind of a weird claim to make, that using emphasis in speech and writing screams a lack of intelligence, since that’s never been true, ever. I can’t imagine where you’re getting it from.

Frankly, taking a look at the links in your signature, I’m shocked that you could have come in here with as poor of misconceptions about mesmers as you did. It seems clear that you have enough experience and care about this game to be capable of understanding the mechanics in play, and to put in the effort to do so, but your behavior here has simply suggested you consider yourself above the need to understand what it is you’re whining about.

Why even post, if you think it beneath you to take the time to understand what you’re posting about?

Quadox.7834:

Dont fix the pledge. It is actually a good trait. No good mesmer currently takes the pledge or the illusions line. For gods sake dont nerf it.

Um, not to be a pedant, but…if no good mesmer currently takes The Pledge, what makes it a good trait?
Wouldn’t 20% cdr instead of 4.5% cdr per second of stealth be just fine, without the twisted stealth incentives it gives right now?

AlphatheWhite.9351
There’s clearly a gap between your experience and ego.

I can’t really explain why mesmers don’t need stability like other classes. We’re just slippery and the emphasis is more on not getting pinned down. Most mesmers also carry blink and decoy.

you get might from GS2, staff AA, Illusions -line, CI, PU, GS mastery trait…
Vigor is good boon, but CoF is on 25s cooldown and you’d have to use it for 5 seconds of vigor.
And if you want to use BD for Chaotic Persistence over PU or CI then go for it.

And Distortion stacks. The clones don’t run anywhere to shatter so it doesn’t matter how they’re placed.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Your inclination to take every statement as a blatant attack is your own arrogance at play;

Suggesting I have more humility and tact is an attack.
My other ridicule is not regarding your attitude toward me, but your disrespect in making declarations in a forum without doing basic fact-checking about those declarations.

docMed.7692:

to further establish yourself as the voice of this sub-forum is foolish at minimum.

I don’t need to be able to speak for the forum to point out disrespect, and I don’t claim to speak for more than my observations of the general tenor of posts I have read.

docMed.7692:

If you read up you would also note my admittances, but that would require effort beyond your own walls of text.

Looking back, I do see you admitted you were wrong about stealthed clones and clone generation. I apologize for not acknowledging that.
I don’t apologize for what followed, as you responded to my rebuttal by refusing to do the work to understand it, which again, is exactly what got this all started in the first place.

docMed.7692:

On a side note, don’t you feel a bit embarrassed using bold and _callouts_ to try and establish your comments as some standalone epiphany? It screams a lack of intelligence and is even that much more entertaining when you’re clearly trying to present yourself as having any.

Bold and italics are used for emphasis. I use the tools of emphasis available to my medium, as speakers and writers always have.
This is kind of a weird claim to make, that using emphasis in speech and writing screams a lack of intelligence, since that’s never been true, ever. I can’t imagine where you’re getting it from.

Frankly, taking a look at the links in your signature, I’m shocked that you could have come in here with as poor of misconceptions about mesmers as you did. It seems clear that you have enough experience and care about this game to be capable of understanding the mechanics in play, and to put in the effort to do so, but your behavior here has simply suggested you consider yourself above the need to understand what it is you’re whining about.

Why even post, if you think it beneath you to take the time to understand what you’re posting about?

You were met with the gauge & tone you presented; I have 0 interest in refuting a wall of text aimed at precision, but without a sense of practicality and reality. You literally broke down Thief vs Mesmer stealth timers, which clearly wasn’t even the subject of the topic - The title was simply to illustrate the exaggerated duration mesmers have received in the realm of stealth uptime compared against a prior (and nerfed) reference point; You’ll excuse me if I don’t feel inclined to go through block by block of your post to discuss up-times of stealth between these two distinct professions (let alone the fact that thief and mesmer enter stealth often for very different reasons and thus are difficult to compare in actual balance/use regarding stealth times).

Noss.4105:

AlphatheWhite.9351
There’s clearly a gap between your experience and ego.

Well, my apologies.

I would like those advocates of BD like Pyro who’ve had more experience than I to give you a better response than I can give, as I know there are a number of posters with better skills who have expressed a decided preference for BD.

That’s assuming an appropriate build, I suppose. I can’t imagine a power build going into Chaos over a more appropriate spec just to get BD, but I can see that for PU (stealth shatter) and CI (interrupts).
That said, for builds that take Chaos for more natural reasons, CI requires you to focus enough on interrupts to make it worthwhile, and PU reportedly just provides a lot more stealth than you generally need in sPvP, leaving BD.
And I know that a lot of people on these forums have expressed a preference for BD under those terms.

Noss.4105:

I can’t really explain why mesmers don’t need stability like other classes. We’re just slippery and the emphasis is more on not getting pinned down. Most mesmers also carry blink and decoy.

I can certainly see the concept, but it seems to me that both fighting on the point and stomps are extremely common and high-impact situations where stability becomes very powerful. The stomps in particular are the most-common reason I’ve seen given for choosing BD over PU.

Noss.4105:

you get might from GS2, staff AA, Illusions -line, CI, PU, GS mastery trait…
Vigor is good boon, but CoF is on 25s cooldown and you’d have to use it for 5 seconds of vigor.
And if you want to use BD for Chaotic Persistence over PU or CI then go for it.

CI requires an interrupt focus (in which case yeah, you’ll obviously choose it over BD).
I’ve never seen my might stacks for PU go over 2, and it usually stays down around 1 at best. Probably because it’s only got 5s duration.
Mirror Blade gets 6 stacks if it bounced back to you on a 10s duration. Pretty good.
I rarely get all that many stacks from Staff AA. Again probably because of the lowish duration.
You really use GS mastery over Mental Anguish?
My point is that you’re certainly not capping Might through your other sources. Every stack matters just as much as the stack before, as there’s no diminishing returns on power or condition damage.
That leaves you choosing between PU for stealth and a few boons (pretty watered down in its boon application, BD and CI both give much stronger production), Chaotic Interruption for really good boons dependent on interrupts, and BD for stability and decent boons dependent on shatters.
The same logic as above applies, if you don’t need the extra stealth, what is PU really getting you? And if you don’t use interruptions much, how often are you producing boons from CI?
BD has a very strong place, but I’ll acknowledge that I wouldn’t take Chaos just to get it, while I might for the other two, given a specific build.

Noss.4105:

And Distortion stacks. The clones don’t run anywhere to shatter so it doesn’t matter how they’re placed.

Good. That must be a new change? I’m positive that wasn’t always the case.

docMed.7692:

You were met with the gauge & tone you presented; I have 0 interest in refuting a wall of text aimed at precision, but without a sense of practicality and reality. You literally broke down Thief vs Mesmer stealth timers, which clearly wasn’t even the subject of the topic – The title was simply to illustrate the exaggerated duration mesmers have received in the realm of stealth uptime compared against a prior (and nerfed) reference point; You’ll excuse me if I don’t feel inclined to go through block by block of your post to discuss up-times of stealth between these two distinct professions (let alone the fact that thief and mesmer enter stealth often for very different reasons and thus are difficult to compare in actual balance/use regarding stealth times).

The topic was literally to suggest that Mesmers are “The New Perma-Stealth DP Thief”, exaggerating the situation with false assumptions about mesmer capabilities in order to imply that somehow thieves have been dethroned as the kings of stealth, and that mesmers should receive the same treatment you suggested thieves received.
Do I need to provide quotes?

I broke down thief and mesmer stealth because the above topic aim is fundamentally flawed in all three assumptions:
1. Thieves did not lose their perma-stealth
2. Mesmers do not have perma-stealth
3. Mesmers do not get more stealth than thieves, and so have not crossed whatever line caused thieves to be nerfed to the point you claim, and therefore do not warrant the nerfs you advocate.

I additionally made the point because you came in here with a comparison of Thief to Mesmer, implying that if thief gets the nerfbat, mesmer should.
You really pushed hard the point about the 10s of stealth, so I brought up the fact that thief can easily get more than that.
Since your point is that thief was brought down where it should be, how is 10s of stealth out of line?

I will reiterate my earlier point about The Pledge, though. The Pledge is currently bugged to be adding about 3x the cooldown reduction on Torch skills (read: The Prestige) than it’s supposed to be, and so is adding an inordinate amount of extra stealth that really probably shouldn’t be there. It’s not especially relevant in sPvP given the drawbacks of excessive stealth there (and why thieves aren’t immediately godmode), but it has caused a great deal of frustration in WvW roaming, and it does dramatically increase Mesmer stealth uptime.

I do think it should be fixed, and perhaps that would resolve most of your concerns, though it doesn’t sound like it from your posts.

Whoever is saying that BD is a subpar trait clearly HAS NOT PLAYED IN AN ORGANIZED TEAM.

#forumsasusual

You really should re-read my posts; you’re just picking and choosing what you’d like to talk about and grossly extrapolating my comments to serve your needs. This just leads to a circular conversation and back to my original intent of ceasing to engage with you. Is there any way you can learn to be concise or at least attempt to put it to practice?

AlphatheWhite.9351
For extra safe stomping, sure, BD would be ok. It’s just the boons are so subpar compared to what you would get from other sources and the alternative traits in Chaos are so good.
And no, I don’t use the GS mastery over MA or PB, I just listed other sources to get might stacks. I’ve experimented with it a bit though.

As far as I remember F4 has always been like that.

My issue with mesmer stealth does not lie in the stealth but the boons given by PU itself.

I consistently and frequently out-play and beat permanent stealth-uptime thieves, trapper rangers, etc. In duels I am notorious for landing single-target skills on stealthed targets. Just today in WvW I fought against two permanent stealth thieves and downed and killed both of them through repeated CnD/backstabs while they were invisible. Through enough practice and playing the class the movements of most of them become quite predictable. D/P 3spam is honestly harder to deal with because of the innate strength of spammable unblockable blinds and gap closes that cannot be evaded, that also deal massive damage when they connect. But that’s besides the point, as I think D/P thief has a problematic skill set inhibiting the ability for thieves to see meaningful buffs due to the abuse of certain abilities. But that belongs in another discussion in another forum.

The problem I have with PU mes is that a mesmer camping stealth gains absurd benefits for being in stealth. I can know where it is, use an enabler skill like CnD or any CC effect, and have it whiff because the mesmer got Aegis, and there’s just no way to know. Then I can land one, attempt to burst it down, but then it just gets protection and giggles away with the capacity to distort if it really gets low, by which it can just blink and the revealed timer is over.

Further, clone on dodge makes it even further difficult for single-target skills to actually land due to bodyblocking/clones absorbing the effects of skills even when the player’s position is known or even targeted/cast on.

Stealth is whatever. Yes, it’s cheesy on the mesmer, and one of the best in the game in terms of its abuse due to the very short cooldown on blink. Yes, I think PU condi mes is faceroll easy and should die (I said the same about P/D thief – actually, I say the same about most abusive condi builds), but stealth itself is fairly easy to counter through skilled play, and even more counters are coming. Unfortunately, stealth cannot be balanced around the strength of the mesmer, especially when thieves have a class mechanic tied to it for their damage and utility (stealth attacks).

Even if mesmers were left with as much stealth as they have now, the removal of the boons from PU would probably leave them vulnerable enough where skilled counterplay efforts could be meaningful enough to shut them down. Right now, it’s half RNG with no real way to know what to do to counter the effects of PU.

DeceiverX.8361:

My issue with mesmer stealth does not lie in the stealth but the boons given by PU itself.

I consistently and frequently out-play and beat permanent stealth-uptime thieves, trapper rangers, etc. In duels I am notorious for landing single-target skills on stealthed targets. Just today in WvW I fought against two permanent stealth thieves and downed and killed both of them through repeated CnD/backstabs while they were invisible. Through enough practice and playing the class the movements of most of them become quite predictable. D/P 3spam is honestly harder to deal with because of the innate strength of spammable unblockable blinds and gap closes that cannot be evaded, that also deal massive damage when they connect. But that’s besides the point, as I think D/P thief has a problematic skill set inhibiting the ability for thieves to see meaningful buffs due to the abuse of certain abilities. But that belongs in another discussion in another forum.

The problem I have with PU mes is that a mesmer camping stealth gains absurd benefits for being in stealth. I can know where it is, use an enabler skill like CnD or any CC effect, and have it whiff because the mesmer got Aegis, and there’s just no way to know. Then I can land one, attempt to burst it down, but then it just gets protection and giggles away with the capacity to distort if it really gets low, by which it can just blink and the revealed timer is over.

Further, clone on dodge makes it even further difficult for single-target skills to actually land due to bodyblocking/clones absorbing the effects of skills even when the player’s position is known or even targeted/cast on.

Stealth is whatever. Yes, it’s cheesy on the mesmer, and one of the best in the game in terms of its abuse due to the very short cooldown on blink. Yes, I think PU condi mes is faceroll easy and should die (I said the same about P/D thief – actually, I say the same about most abusive condi builds), but stealth itself is fairly easy to counter through skilled play, and even more counters are coming. Unfortunately, stealth cannot be balanced around the strength of the mesmer, especially when thieves have a class mechanic tied to it for their damage and utility (stealth attacks).

Even if mesmers were left with as much stealth as they have now, the removal of the boons from PU would probably leave them vulnerable enough where skilled counterplay efforts could be meaningful enough to shut them down. Right now, it’s half RNG with no real way to know what to do to counter the effects of PU.

You’re right that more counterplay is coming. Would swapping aegis out for something less all-or-nothing like resistance, perhaps, make the difference?
I mean, thieves do get 25% damage reduction in stealth, and are a medium armor class so I’m not sure PU is making the mesmer all that much more durable in general from protection or regeneration, but I can definitely see where you’re coming from on the Aegis. I mean, Aegis has come up before as a concern with PU.
Resistance, on the other hand, doesn’t remove conditions, so it doesn’t nullify attacks like Aegis does, but it does provide some protection, and can be controlled by limiting the duration granted.
I’d be leery of just removing aegis, as one of the reasons they added the extra boons in the first place was to keep PU from just giving you 500000 might stacks out of stealth all the time.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

DeceiverX.8361:

My issue with mesmer stealth does not lie in the stealth but the boons given by PU itself.

I consistently and frequently out-play and beat permanent stealth-uptime thieves, trapper rangers, etc. In duels I am notorious for landing single-target skills on stealthed targets. Just today in WvW I fought against two permanent stealth thieves and downed and killed both of them through repeated CnD/backstabs while they were invisible. Through enough practice and playing the class the movements of most of them become quite predictable. D/P 3spam is honestly harder to deal with because of the innate strength of spammable unblockable blinds and gap closes that cannot be evaded, that also deal massive damage when they connect. But that’s besides the point, as I think D/P thief has a problematic skill set inhibiting the ability for thieves to see meaningful buffs due to the abuse of certain abilities. But that belongs in another discussion in another forum.

The problem I have with PU mes is that a mesmer camping stealth gains absurd benefits for being in stealth. I can know where it is, use an enabler skill like CnD or any CC effect, and have it whiff because the mesmer got Aegis, and there’s just no way to know. Then I can land one, attempt to burst it down, but then it just gets protection and giggles away with the capacity to distort if it really gets low, by which it can just blink and the revealed timer is over.

Further, clone on dodge makes it even further difficult for single-target skills to actually land due to bodyblocking/clones absorbing the effects of skills even when the player’s position is known or even targeted/cast on.

Stealth is whatever. Yes, it’s cheesy on the mesmer, and one of the best in the game in terms of its abuse due to the very short cooldown on blink. Yes, I think PU condi mes is faceroll easy and should die (I said the same about P/D thief – actually, I say the same about most abusive condi builds), but stealth itself is fairly easy to counter through skilled play, and even more counters are coming. Unfortunately, stealth cannot be balanced around the strength of the mesmer, especially when thieves have a class mechanic tied to it for their damage and utility (stealth attacks).

Even if mesmers were left with as much stealth as they have now, the removal of the boons from PU would probably leave them vulnerable enough where skilled counterplay efforts could be meaningful enough to shut them down. Right now, it’s half RNG with no real way to know what to do to counter the effects of PU.

You’re right that more counterplay is coming. Would swapping aegis out for something less all-or-nothing like resistance, perhaps, make the difference?
I mean, thieves do get 25% damage reduction in stealth, and are a medium armor class so I’m not sure PU is making the mesmer all that much more durable in general from protection or regeneration, but I can definitely see where you’re coming from on the Aegis. I mean, Aegis has come up before as a concern with PU.
Resistance, on the other hand, doesn’t remove conditions, so it doesn’t nullify attacks like Aegis does, but it does provide some protection, and can be controlled by limiting the duration granted.
I’d be leery of just removing aegis, as one of the reasons they added the extra boons in the first place was to keep PU from just giving you 500000 might stacks out of stealth all the time.

Thieves also have around 40% less health, no sources of stability, higher-cooldown stunbreaks, no real body-block effects (thieves guild is worse than hounds of balthazar for this instance as the thieves are ranged, share a very high cooldown, etc.), no damage immunities, no blocks, a terribly situational deflect with its only reflect being a skill that would reveal and is also on a high cooldown, and no burst condition cleanse option with lower-scaling heals. Outside of D/P SA/permastealth, it also possesses factually the worst condition cleansing in the game, and even with SA, some of the worst condition cleansing per unit of health in the game, as well as lower stealth uptime than PU mesmer (SA is required to get better stealth than PU mesmer), and must also dedicate 2/3 utilities (one of which is bad) to do so. Additionally, all of its stealth-stacking effects lasting potentially longer than 3/4 seconds reveal its location to the enemy (unless multiple cooldowns are blown for HT + BP + existing stealth for 12s at best with no indicating tell, and even then, BP as a utility is typically considered a very poor choice, and steal would potentially need to be wasted and would need to be off CD to do this), via offhand pistol, SR, or SS. Strictly speaking, if one knows how to locate a thief in stealth, the fight is won because doing almost anything will actually kill it or enable a kill. It’s the fact so many people can’t do this, and subsequently let the thief sustain and regen via Rejuv – “resetting” – that lets them win a fight. Being more proactive and knowledgeable here pretty much shuts them down innately. There’s no RNG elements game-side to beating a thief,the only disparity is the thief’s decisions on what skills to use in what ways to attempt to trick their enemy. If the enemy sees through it, however, and has a build capable of killing most things, it’s over.

I just think PU shouldn’t provide boons. Some stealth duration, and maybe some extra static effect like a movespeed bonus would probably still be enough to warrant taking the trait. Stealth is powerful, and frankly, the thief also lost a ton of viability as a whole with the changes on 6/23 due to massive nerfs to its stealth with no compensation elsewhere (the “buffs” seen affected other builds which are still under-performers or other traits/trait lines which are not good enough to warrant their use in almost any format due to the inherent weaknesses of the class). Stealth, and gaining effects from it, make classes much harder to balance. Take away SA from the thief, you have the most underpowered class in the game in the PvP formats from pretty much every angle. Yet, use the trait line, and viability bumps immensely. Thus, buffs to the class where it’s hurting become much more difficult to do. The same thing will happen to the mesmer. You’re already starting to see it, although the mesmer without PU is a little better-off than the thief without SA. PU, no matter how strong, is bad for everyone, including the mesmer, because it creates huge rifts within the class that inhibit necessary fixing/buffing elsewhere.

The problem with thieves is their stealth really. As you say you can kill the thief if you know where they are but how do you know where they are?

My friend and I sometimes troll zergs, him on thief, me on mesmer, both power burst. If he gets in trouble he switches to shortbow hits blinding powder and teleports away. Then out comes either SR or I MI him and he spam the laugh emote while he teleports around with SB5. Yeah I know it’s trolley but thief does have a lot of mobility to be able to get out of the area.

So why do I say their problem is their stealth? Because they’re balanced around it but the mechanic has never been balanced. A thief should only ever die to their own bloodthirst, they have the best disengage there is (mesmer is now close though) so there’s no excuse for not getting out if things are looking not so hot.

Hopefully HoT will balance it out a bit then we can see thieves getting buffs in places so they’re not super cheesy like extreme evade SD thieves were.

apharma.3741:

The problem with thieves is their stealth really. As you say you can kill the thief if you know where they are but how do you know where they are?

My friend and I sometimes troll zergs, him on thief, me on mesmer, both power burst. If he gets in trouble he switches to shortbow hits blinding powder and teleports away. Then out comes either SR or I MI him and he spam the laugh emote while he teleports around with SB5. Yeah I know it’s trolley but thief does have a lot of mobility to be able to get out of the area.

So why do I say their problem is their stealth? Because they’re balanced around it but the mechanic has never been balanced. A thief should only ever die to their own bloodthirst, they have the best disengage there is (mesmer is now close though) so there’s no excuse for not getting out if things are looking not so hot.

Hopefully HoT will balance it out a bit then we can see thieves getting buffs in places so they’re not super cheesy like extreme evade SD thieves were.

You know where they are through practice. The thief is only ever going to kill you if he reveals himself and stays close, otherwise he gives the target a free reset as well. Obviously, there are skilled thieves who fool me/fool other people, and good for them, but for the most part, they’re very easy to track. Do recall that most players in zergs are particularly bad at tracking stealthed players because they focus heavily on visible targets when in combat situations; I’d like to see your friend do the same thing except going into the blob while they’re busy fighting. He’ll fall over dead rather quickly. I’d also point out there is no context to your friend’s build. I can also make a pure defense nomad/sentinel thief with permanent stealth uptime and troll zergs. I’m not killing anything with that build. The better his damage gets/roaming potential alone is, the way down his durability gets. A glass thief against mine dies with no counter if I get the target on him and isn’t mid-dodge. Literally zero counter. Dead, 13-14k damage instantly that cannot be avoided, stunbroken, or teleported away from. I don’t even need a backstab. No other class except an ele with no boons in ineffective glassy gear can/will go down like that.

And that’s it – you’re absolutely correct. Stealth IS the problem—or at least, partially—because like I mentioned, most players do not spend 3-4k hours on a thief and learn absolutely everything about its nuances and extensively study people playing the class. Actually, I’d argue most people complaining about thief stealth have never even touched the thief for more than fifty hours or intentionally trained against them/study them with the intent to learn for half that time. Strictly speaking, thief stealth is more counterable than mesmer stealth from the tells alone. The duration really doesn’t mean much considering most fights typically do not last beyond the 40s-1m mark except on very reset-heavy or durability-focused encounters.

The issue lies in that the alternatives to stealth-focused play are sub-par on the global scheme of things. Everything defensive comes from SA, and it provides huge bonuses, just like PU. Because of this, the thief can’t be buffed elsewhere, as then the class becomes overpowered, especially when combining cheesier elements like what S/D evasion had. And S/D evasion had/has a much lower skill floor and previously had much higher skill ceiling than D/P did. But, Acrobatics got nerfed into oblivion, and now S/D builds run SA because the defenses are too poor elsewhere/the best S/D player in the game/head of the meta S/D build resigned because the build was made too weak in the past patch. Nothing has changed with stealth and SA’s durability got buffed. At least its damage got toned down.

This is why I advocate for PU nerfs. It’s cheesy, broken, and will ultimately lead the mesmer down this way if people keep playing into it. The devs want to make sure they’re keeping people entertained on the builds they think are fun and good, and playing this way will just inevitably pigeon-hole the mesmer more into stealth/PU cheese builds due to less-meaningful alternatives.

Then again, you have Robert as your head dev. So you might be okay.

docMed.7692:

and most importantly, it’s really boring to play against.

/thread

Many players don’t want to see that the mesmer profession has and relies on many broken (not equal to overpowered) mechanics, which ultimately leads to boring / one-sided fights. There’s nothing that keeps shatter / lockdown mesmers in check atm, except for other unfun builds (e.g. fire-spec celementalist).

Prepatch, d/p thief was very strong against mesmers, but got countered by pretty much anything else that had some kind of (Pb)AoE, so there was a trade-off. PU Mesmer currently doesnt have such trade-offs. Times changed, and now only boring-to-play builds can compete with boring-to-fight builds.

That doesn’t make for fun game experiences while fighting it out (which I know some high-level PvP folks don’t give an F about, since their fun is only tied to the outcome of the fight, not the process), but should – at least in my opinion – be a priority for Anet to consider when they want to push casual and none-top-tier players into the PvP modes. After all, it’s still a game which should be about providing fun for all players involved.

I won’t respond directly to the OP, since that sort of stain isn’t worth my time or effort. However, regarding BD:

BD occupies a sort of odd situation. It’s indubitably a fantastic trait. It offers high upkeep on a lot of strong boons in an aoe, while providing extremely accessible stability. That last is really a game changer. Charging a mantra? Stability. Casting a phantasm? Stability. Performing a combo? Stability. Stomping someone? Stability. Since it can be used during other actions and is instant, it’s such an invaluable tool for getting stuff done, regardless of what that stuff may be. Combined with blinding dissipation, it’s pretty incredible.

However…it’s in an odd spot because of the other two traits it shares a spot with. If you plan on playing in an interrupt-heavy manner, then CI instantly becomes the go-to choice for obvious reasons. If you’re playing a squishy build that needs a lot of extra defense revolving around not getting hit instead of ignoring hits, then PU becomes the go-to choice. There aren’t a ton of situations where BD is really pickable, and that’s honestly a shame since it’s such an interesting and strong trait now.

Deciever, I know where bad ones are just as I know where bad mesmers are but we both know decent mesmers and thieves will definitely avoid damage very easily once stealthed.

My friend runs full zerker DP, me too and yes we both die if we ever sit in all the AoE. Even a full nomads warrior would though.

The thing about mesmer stealth is in PvP the base duration is just enough on decoy and prestige to get somewhere out of LoS. MI and veil are a complete joke when you compare them to other sources of AoE stealth, not just thieves but engineer toss elixir S.

Outside of PvP though it’s just not enough to roam with in WvW, especially when you have servers like drakkar lake and blobbadons mouth that will chase you from pangolass mine to speldon with an 80 man map blob. Really, they do that. That is where PU really shines giving the survivability you need in those situations.

The boons from PU are extremely random and that is why it was dropped from roaming power builds pre-patch as it wasn’t worth the investment for +1 stealth when the boons were watered down.

At the moment I take PU and feel I need it in WvW for 2 reasons:

1. To stand a chance at escaping from thieves.
2. I’m too slow to get away without longer stealth.

Travel runes will help with point 2 and so could chronomancer but I won’t be running traveler just for that especially as I use my PvE armour (scholar runes) in WvW due to limited bag space.

Point number 1 thieves still own the roaming scene, their lead over other classes has come down substantially but they are steal the best roamers. Pun intended.

Edit: Actually now I think about it without PU the only thing I can escape from is a guardian and Mesmer assuming neither have traveller runes. Otherwise I would need to use decoy, blink and possibly mass invis to get away alive.