Guild Wars 2

The Pledge: Torch skills remove 1 condition from you when activated. While you are stealthed torch skills recharge 1.5% of their maximum recharge every second.

At 1.5%/sec that would mean we need to be stealthed for 14~ secs to get a 20% recharge reduction… that’s close to 50% stealth uptime. This trait is almost useless without filling our utility bar with stealth, or also traiting PU.

I would really like to see a change to either this trait or the torch itself-

Trait- back to a flat 20% reduction
or
Torch- reduce the torch base cooldowns to 25 seconds

This way Torch is more flexible for a greater variety of builds.

Anyone else have concerns about this trait?

I blame this entirely on the fact that it removes conditions and provides stealth. They will be very hesitant to reduce the cooldown and keep those two factors. Remember with PU now torch provides 6 seconds of stealth. Yeah, they aren’t touching it.

What i would love to see it changed to is-

The Pledge: Torch skills remove 1 condition from you when activated. Burning duration +20%.

Then reduce the base cooldowns to 25 secs.

Mikkel.8427:

What i would love to see it changed to is-

The Pledge: Torch skills remove 1 condition from you when activated. Burning duration +20%.

Then reduce the base cooldowns to 25 secs.

Going to repeat what I just said. If the condi removal stays in the trait, and the torch can still give stealth. The cooldowns will not be reduced.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Mikkel.8427:

What i would love to see it changed to is-

The Pledge: Torch skills remove 1 condition from you when activated. Burning duration +20%.

Then reduce the base cooldowns to 25 secs.

Going to repeat what I just said. If the condi removal stays in the trait, and the torch can still give stealth. The cooldowns will not be reduced.

I wasn’t arguing with you… just sharing what I believe to be a more flexible change. By removing the cooldown from the trait entirely, torch becomes useful for other builds. Torch right now can be traited down to 24 seconds, do you consider the current iteration of the trait OP?

1.5% of 30 seconds is 0.45 seconds So this trait is actually giving a 45% boost to recharge rates for your torch skills while under stealth. So The Prestige on it’s own gives a 9% total cool-down bonus (if traited with PU, and why wouldn’t you if you are running a traited torch!). And if you are traiting PU, I’m sure that you will have a few other stealth skills up your sleeves.

Using Decoy as a second source of stealth gives a total of 12 seconds of stealth, followed by 12.6 seconds before you can stealth with the prestige again.

Of course, this trait is no where near as good as Chaotic Dampening is for staff

Hygric.2705:

1.5% of 30 seconds is 0.45 seconds So this trait is actually giving a 45% boost to recharge rates for your torch skills while under stealth. So The Prestige on it’s own gives a 9% total cool-down bonus (if traited with PU, and why wouldn’t you if you are running a traited torch!). And if you are traiting PU, I’m sure that you will have a few other stealth skills up your sleeves.

Using Decoy as a second source of stealth gives a total of 12 seconds of stealth, followed by 12.6 seconds before you can stealth with the prestige again.

Of course, this trait is no where near as good as Chaotic Dampening is for staff

It gives 9% if used with the torch + a grandmaster trait in a completey different line? That is horrible compared to the standard 20%. It sucks.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I blame this entirely on the fact that it removes conditions and provides stealth. They will be very hesitant to reduce the cooldown and keep those two factors. Remember with PU now torch provides 6 seconds of stealth. Yeah, they aren’t touching it.

“They will be very hesitant to reduce the cooldown and keep those two factors.”

Why? That is how it works in game at the moment of speaking, and noone even uses the trait!

This trait really did take a huge beating between the radical CD reduction nerf and the fact that the pMage no longer cleanses conditions with it’s attack.

I agree with Mikkel for the reasoning on this, but the fact remains they nerfed this trait into near uselessness. I kinda get why, but that doesn’t really excuse the end result.

One reason appears to be that they’re making Condie Cleansing something you really have to trait for, or use a utility, otherwise you will suffer greatly at the hands of the new Condition mechanics. I applaud that effort and hope they carry that over to many/most other classes as well. It’s simply bad design that especially passive cleansing happens on classes that didn’t even spec specifically for it, so they’re not losing anything by completely shutting down an entire play-style.

And I agree that the CD probably won’t be touched simply due to how powerful PU now is. All in all though:

A) no one I know of asked for PU to be boosted (lol!)
B) it doesn’t justify creating yet another useless trait in an overhaul that was designed to eliminate them. It’s just an unduly overnerfed trait now, and needs some form of adjustment.

Although I have to admit, it competed with 2 rather poor abilities. So in a Torch MtD build, especially one with PU traited, I guess I would take it just because the other two options are even worse.

Sad reality, but the Adepts in this line are terrible. In fact, IMHO Illusions overall is going from being the strongest and most popular trait-line to the weakest in one patch. Aside from Ineptitude I don’t think the GMs are that strong, and the Master traits outside of MtD are also only “OK”. It’s mainly the Minors that are desirable, and the good ones really only target either MtD or niche builds.

Quadox.7834:

Why? That is how it works in game at the moment of speaking, and noone even uses the trait!

I agree with you in principle, but math clearly shows the problem here. It’s the potential CD reduction you can achieve that makes this impossible the balance. The fact that the practical use of this pretty much ensures that this will be a huge nerf to this trait, you can’t ignore the potential to reduce the CD by 45%. (And the impact this has on especially TP.)

It’s just bad design. They created the “tech” to vary their CD reductions in this way, and now they want to use it…even with a prybar (to the face). From a balance perspective it’s just better to stick with flat percentages.

It’s absolutely ridiculous to:

1) Presume PU! Since when it Torch something for only PU builds? I see a lot of standard shatter builds using Torch. It’s absolutely fine without PU and thus it’s not good design to basically make the presumption of PU to balance The Pledge. The variable CD reduction are just bad design that will promote cheesy play. (Duck in stealth virtually 75% of the fight or more, while summoning Phantasms & Clones to do the fighting for you.)

2) Assume that even if you have PU, that you’re going to be in stealth basically permanently while in combat. It’s potentially quite OPd to allow a profession/build that much Stealth time, especially one that has access to pets that can attack without breaking the owners stealth. (This will soon be an indirect nerf to PU, you heard it here first!)

So basically it’s potentially quite OPd when (ab)used effectively, and a huge nerf to the existing Torch trait when used “normally.”

I was starting to think i was the only one…

The max cooldown reduction is actually about 30% btw. After 21~ secs of continuous stealth, The prestige will be back up.

Torch by itself without PU 4.5% reduction (-1.35 secs)
Torch by itself with PU 9% reduction (-2.70 secs)
and so on…

I really don’t like how this trait pigeon holes torch into one specific build

The only somewhat saving grace is that condition cleansing for Mesmers is a bit harder to get, although when you spec for it you can do a lot of it. (Insp.) Outside of taking MoR or NF, this The Pledge trait will be the only fairly reliable way to clear condies…which I think will become a much more desirable aspect of a balanced build with all the strong Condition love.

In fact you will probably want MoR + TP, because even MoR alone will not be quite enough in smaller-scale PvP at least where you can’t rely on others to Cleanse for you. (Which will become more rare anyway, since every class will have more shiney new options with HoT, drawing them away from the current meta builds.)

Windwalker.7421:

Quadox.7834:

Why? That is how it works in game at the moment of speaking, and noone even uses the trait!

I agree with you in principle, but math clearly shows the problem here. It’s the potential CD reduction you can achieve that makes this impossible the balance. The fact that the practical use of this pretty much ensures that this will be a huge nerf to this trait, you can’t ignore the potential to reduce the CD by 45%. (And the impact this has on especially TP.)

It’s just bad design. They created the “tech” to vary their CD reductions in this way, and now they want to use it…even with a prybar (to the face). From a balance perspective it’s just better to stick with flat percentages.

It’s absolutely ridiculous to:

1) Presume PU! Since when it Torch something for only PU builds? I see a lot of standard shatter builds using Torch. It’s absolutely fine without PU and thus it’s not good design to basically make the presumption of PU to balance The Pledge. The variable CD reduction are just bad design that will promote cheesy play. (Duck in stealth virtually 75% of the fight or more, while summoning Phantasms & Clones to do the fighting for you.)

2) Assume that even if you have PU, that you’re going to be in stealth basically permanently while in combat. It’s potentially quite OPd to allow a profession/build that much Stealth time, especially one that has access to pets that can attack without breaking the owners stealth. (This will soon be an indirect nerf to PU, you heard it here first!)

So basically it’s potentially quite OPd when (ab)used effectively, and a huge nerf to the existing Torch trait when used “normally.”

I disagree. I think your first paragraph is an example of how they achieved balance. But first

@Quaddox. Inspiration is now super charged at condition removal. All of the condition removal in inspiration is not dependent on utility or weapon set. The other removal traits that work with wells, or torch, or signets will not receive any buffs. They want you to make hard choices.

Now Wind, I agree with you this trait was made with PU in mind. And that is okay. Balances are made around potential and probability. A flat reduction would not be compatible with the enhance to stealth. To achieve the same reduction now a person has to be in stealth 13s which means not breaking stealth. 13s or more of not breaking stealth provides enough opportunity cost to justify the reduction.