Guild Wars 2

NEW CHANGES
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• Removed suggestion for Mender’s Purity: the last update to Mantras made it no longer relevant.

• Added suggestion for all Mantras: actually already included, but what was a suggested nerf is now a buff.

• Removed suggestion for Blinding Dissipation.

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DOMINATION
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Confounding Suggestions – Makes Mantra of Distraction far too forgiving to use. As many people have stated already on this forum, it needs a longer ICD of 10s to each individual target; as with Ineptitude.
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Rending Shatter – I think it needs to inflict 2 stacks of Vulnerability per Illusion. Up to 4 stacks doesn’t make it appealing enough to take over Confounding Suggestions.
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Mental Anguish – Rather too strong, especially when used with Mantra of Distraction. Suggest that extra Shatter damage be reduced from 15% to 10% for both the base and the inactivity component (maximum damage boost reduced from 30% to 20%). To compensate, maybe it could also increase the duration of conditions and control effects from Shatters by 15% and another 15% on inactives.

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DUELING
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Mistrust – 2 stacks of Confusion isn’t that strong even as an AoE, and I believe Interrupts tend to synergise better with Power builds (correct me if I’m wrong). I’d suggest upping the Confusion count to 4 stacks.

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CHAOS
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Prismatic Understanding – Stealth uptime is too long with this trait IMO. I’d lower the bonus duration from 100% to 50%.
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Bountiful Disillusionment – The Stability is great but the Shatter-specific boons are a bit meh. I’d increase Cry of Frustration’s Vigour from 5s to 8s and make Distortion grant 5s of Protection instead of Regeneration.

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INSPIRATION
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Persisting Images – Doesn’t really make Phantasms much more durable. I would make the health bonus apply to all Illusions (don’t want to up the amount because of my suggestion for Protected Phantasms), although Retaliation would remain Phantasms only.
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Protected Phantasms – I would make the Distortion apply to all Illusions too (rename the trait to Protected Illusions). Protection on Shatter seems a bit lacking… would it be too strong to give Illusions permanent Protection? Otherwise maybe 5s of Protection for Illusions on conjure and on Shatter.
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Illusionary Inspiration – This would synergise well with Blurred Inscriptions if the active effect wasn’t on a 30/24s ICD, and by itself it’s really lackluster for a GM trait. I suggest lowering the ICD to 10s.
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Temporal Enchanter – The duration increase is of marginal benefit to many Glamours. For a GM trait I think it can afford to be stronger, make it increase duration by 50%. The ally buffing effect is really finicky and not all that strong, but making it a pulsing buff is too strong for Resistance; so I suggest reworking it. Glamours grant 1.5s of Vigour and Regeneration every 1s to allies within their area. Portal Entre only applies this effect after Exeunt is cast. For Veil this would be applied every time it is crossed.

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ILLUSIONS
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Master of Fragmentation – A minor thing but the bonus Crit Chance for Mind Wrack is a bit low. I’d increase it from 10% to 15%.
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Malicious Sorcery – Rather weak for a GM trait. Make conditions inflicted by the Sceptre (and Sceptre Clones) last 50% longer instead of increasing attack speed.

SWORD
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Illusionary Leap – Unreliable and somewhat clunky. Increasing the range from 600 to 900 would help.

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SCEPTRE
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Ether Bolt – Sceptre still feels rather weak as a condition weapon. If Sceptre Clones used the full Ether Bolt chain (except without conjuring another Clone with Ether Clone) it would help.

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FOCUS
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Temporal Curtain – I understand not being able to get Swiftness if you already have it is to prevent people stacking lots of Swiftness, but it makes this skill incredibly clunky. Make it grant a unique buff (say Temporal Swiftness) to allies that grants 5s of Swiftness every 5s and lasts for 5s (so 10s of Swiftness total). Running over another (or the same) Curtain would refresh the buff. This would allow it to play nice with existing Swiftness without being abusable.

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TORCH
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Phantasmal Mage – Not strong enough for its long CD. Should inflict 2 stacks of Burning, up from 1.

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UTILITY SKILLS
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Mimic – CD is a bit too long. I’d reduce it from 90s to 75s. Could even go down to 60s but that might be too good.
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MANTRAS – Making Mantras only start their CD after the last charge is expended encourages people to expend all their charges ASAP as soon as they use the first charge, otherwise they’re getting the full CD for a “weakened” version of a skill the next time they need it. Instead make all Mantras start CD after the first cast is expended while in combat.
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Mantra of Concentration – Stability duration is too short, but Mesmers shouldn’t be getting too much (group) Stability so I don’t know. At least increase the duration from 2s to 3s.
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Veil – Lackluster skill held down by the fact that it can’t be better than Mass Invisibility. At least increase stealth duration from 2s to 3s. Further buffs would probably require buffing MI too which is already used by a lot of Mesmers.

Embolism.8106:

GREATSWORD
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Mirror Blade – I feel that making Illusionary Elasticity baseline for this skill (which I don’t think any Power Mesmer took before the patch anyway) allowing you to hit a single target up to 3 times is too much. I’d reduce the number of bounces from 4 to 3.

The old builds:

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Double_Ranged_Shatter
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Traditional_Shatter

It only made sense sub Illusionary Elasticity with Illusionary Invigoration possibly in sw/t variant since it would only affect 50% of your weps composition. And even then it would compete with eachother very closely.
I would estimate 75% of all traditional shatter builds used it. Close to 100% if u used staff and 50/50 if you used sw/t.

FJSAMA.2867:

Embolism.8106:

GREATSWORD
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Mirror Blade – I feel that making Illusionary Elasticity baseline for this skill (which I don’t think any Power Mesmer took before the patch anyway) allowing you to hit a single target up to 3 times is too much. I’d reduce the number of bounces from 4 to 3.

The old builds:

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Double_Ranged_Shatter
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Traditional_Shatter

It only made sense sub Illusionary Elasticity with Illusionary Invigoration possibly in sw/t variant since it would only affect 50% of your weps composition. And even then it would compete with eachother very closely.
I would estimate 75% of all traditional shatter builds used it. Close to 100% if u used staff and 50/50 if you used sw/t.

Thanks for the correction. I only returned to GW2 in earnest recently – took a break of nearly 2 years – so I’m out of the loop with regards to how the meta changed since then.

Nevertheless I think Mirror Blade does need toning down.

Yeah, mirror blade is useless in PvE as is the greatsword in general so let’s nerf it some more while skills like lava font and meteor shower remain untouched.

Embolism.8106:

Nevertheless I think Mirror Blade does need toning down.

Reduce vulnerability to 2 stacks. Also you don’t want to be adding more vulnerability to mesmers, we have too much in our burst as is, to the point it is eclipsing an actual 30% damage modifier trait.

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

Nevertheless I think Mirror Blade does need toning down.

Reduce vulnerability to 2 stacks. Also you don’t want to be adding more vulnerability to mesmers, we have too much in our burst as is, to the point it is eclipsing an actual 30% damage modifier trait.

Reducing the Vulnerability isn’t going to make Mind Wrack + Mind Stab + Mirror Blade much less potent a burst.

I assume by more Vulnerability you’re referring to Rending Shatter, I think it’s fine: you choose between more damage or a stun to set up a burst.

Embolism.8106:

GREATSWORD
Mirror Blade – I feel that making Illusionary Elasticity baseline for this skill (which I don’t think any Power Mesmer took before the patch anyway) allowing you to hit a single target up to 3 times is too much. I’d reduce the number of bounces from 4 to 3.

I have to agree with FJSAMA regarding this.

Even if using Sword/Torch + GS pre patch, I still took iElasticity for mirror blade F1 bursts, and so did many other players – and if people were using Staff + GS then of course everyone took it.

So no, I don’t think Mirror Blade should be hurt in such a way.

Instead I think it should definitely be blockable AND reflectable as any normal projectile.

Curunen.8729:

Embolism.8106:

GREATSWORD
Mirror Blade – I feel that making Illusionary Elasticity baseline for this skill (which I don’t think any Power Mesmer took before the patch anyway) allowing you to hit a single target up to 3 times is too much. I’d reduce the number of bounces from 4 to 3.

I have to agree with FJSAMA regarding this.

Even if using Sword/Torch + GS pre patch, I still took iElasticity for mirror blade F1 bursts, and so did many other players – and if people were using Staff + GS then of course everyone took it.

So no, I don’t think Mirror Blade should be hurt in such a way.

Instead I think it should definitely be blockable AND reflectable as any normal projectile.

I’ve already acknowledged that I’m mistaken there. The issue is Mirror Blade is currently part of a very potent burst with Mind Wrack and Mind Stab, too potent I feel; and I think Mirror Blade is the easiest (and maybe most reasonable) to tweak.

Edited the original post to fix my mistake and make my reasoning clearer.

Why do we need another post on nerfing the Mesmer. All classes can burst plain and simple. Learn to dodge practice more playing, less forum post rehash on how to nerf Mesmer.

Mirror Blade is indeed part of the FOTM combo, but it’s not really the problematic part. My vote there goes to Mental Anguish. I think it needs to drop 5% off both halves. Combine that with an ICD on Confounding Suggestions, and that should dial back the overtuned parts of FOTM burst without totally killing our PvP viability.

Embolism.8106:

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

Nevertheless I think Mirror Blade does need toning down.

Reduce vulnerability to 2 stacks. Also you don’t want to be adding more vulnerability to mesmers, we have too much in our burst as is, to the point it is eclipsing an actual 30% damage modifier trait.

Reducing the Vulnerability isn’t going to make Mind Wrack + Mind Stab + Mirror Blade much less potent a burst.

I assume by more Vulnerability you’re referring to Rending Shatter, I think it’s fine: you choose between more damage or a stun to set up a burst.

Actually it’s acting as a massive boost over the old shatter builds we used to use by giving us about 5 more vuln from daze 8 if interrupted with the 9 from the mirror blade. You end up with 17 at least which is equal to 25 stacks with fragility. That’s a 1.25 modifier and when acting with the 1.3 modifier of mental anguish you’re looking at substantially more damage.

tobascodagama.2961:

Mirror Blade is indeed part of the FOTM combo, but it’s not really the problematic part. My vote there goes to Mental Anguish. I think it needs to drop 5% off both halves. Combine that with an ICD on Confounding Suggestions, and that should dial back the overtuned parts of FOTM burst without totally killing our PvP viability.

Good thought, dialing back Mental Anguish instead would also affect PvE less. I’ll change my post.

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

Nevertheless I think Mirror Blade does need toning down.

Reduce vulnerability to 2 stacks. Also you don’t want to be adding more vulnerability to mesmers, we have too much in our burst as is, to the point it is eclipsing an actual 30% damage modifier trait.

Reducing the Vulnerability isn’t going to make Mind Wrack + Mind Stab + Mirror Blade much less potent a burst.

I assume by more Vulnerability you’re referring to Rending Shatter, I think it’s fine: you choose between more damage or a stun to set up a burst.

Actually it’s acting as a massive boost over the old shatter builds we used to use by giving us about 5 more vuln from daze 8 if interrupted with the 9 from the mirror blade. You end up with 17 at least which is equal to 25 stacks with fragility. That’s a 1.25 modifier and when acting with the 1.3 modifier of mental anguish you’re looking at substantially more damage.

Indeed, hence why I think Rending Shatter needs to be better if it wants to compete.

EDIT: if you’re talking about Mirror Blade, I was saying that reducing Mirror Blade’s Vulnerability from 3 stacks to 2 won’t change much, it’s 3% less damage.

I agree with most things here. For mistrust, I already wrote a bit about my opinion:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Suggestion-Meaningful-condi-interrupt/first

Illusionary Inspiration is already decent I believe, and acting as a signet is a plus since it synergizes with signet traits.

Temporal Enchanter: I haven’t tried it yet post-patch, but I kinda like the idea of this trait as it is. Maybe the idea is good but does not work in practice…

Ether Bolt: just need a full rework of the scepter AA!

Phantasmal Mage: I don’t think 2 stacks of burn would be op…

No Embolism, I mean:

apharma.3741:

Assuming we had pre patch modifiers (1.2 MW and 1.09 vuln) with the new amulets damage looks like this:

Marauder, if all crit: 11,380
Berserker if all crit: 13,390

Now if we assume you’re only getting the 10% modifier from mental anguish but keeping high vuln modifier our new max damage looks like this:

Marauder all crits: 12,367 (5868 from MW)
Berserker all crits: 15, 192 (7530 from MW)

With that in mind if we revert the vulnerability to pre patch levels (so only the 9 from mirror blade no fragility no daze/interrupts) our damage would look more like this:

Marauder all crits: 11,967 (6096 from MW)
Berserker all crits: 14,079 (7171 from MW)

That’s if everything we had crits and so is hopefully a fairly accurate idea of our max burst of a mirror blade, MW, MS combo with 2+1 clones (dodging to generate 1 more).

We’re getting a lot more vuln and it’s definitely having an effect, a bigger one than the new mental torment trait.

Mistrust should be combined with the revised Confusing Combatants that got scrapped at the last minute… Its a super weak grandmaster, especially compared with the other two options. It doesn’t even work underwater atm on top of it.

PS- don’t bother linking a vid to someone using this trait vs Menders in silverwaste…. We all know Interrupt traits are disproportionately effective against them.

Mikkel.8427:

Mistrust should be combined with the revised Confusing Combatants that got scrapped at the last minute… Its a super weak grandmaster, especially compared with the other two options. It doesn’t even work underwater atm on top of it.

PS- don’t bother linking a vid to someone using this trait vs Menders in silverwaste…. We all know Interrupt traits are disproportionately effective against them.

This post…I like it. Another!

Embolism.8106:

Mender’s Purity – Synergises rather too well with Mantra of Recovery, although without Harmonious Mantras it only triggers once (the first cast) per MoR channel… but if that gets fixed, this should have an ICD of 10s.

Bad for PvE, both for cleansing through some annoying pulses and stacking up damage modifiers from HM during burst reflect phases.

Embolism.8106:

Temporal Curtain – I understand not being able to get Swiftness if you already have it is to prevent people stacking lots and lots of Swiftness, but it makes this skill incredibly clunky especially when using it for travel. Reduce the duration of Swiftness from 12s to 5s and let it stack properly. If people want to stutter around in one spot for 5s to get lots of Swiftness, let them.

HECK NO! Completely ruins the skill for open world travel. Just give it a “purple rectangle” dummy buff that lasts 10s and prevents you from receiving further swiftness from curtains.

Also no word on how the entire Chaos line is next to worthless for PvE, Domination is one glorified damage modifier and neither phantasm survival nor shatter received significant updates.

As with all other threads: fix the global power creep FIRST, then start working on builds/traits if the FotM burst even still exists at that point. Start on CS because that’s worthless in PvE/bad in group PvP, then start trading burst vulnerability for continuous application.
Oh, and stop focusing on 1v1, both for mesmer design (Anet) and balance suggestions (everyone else)!

May as well respond to everything else while im at it…

Confounding Suggestions- Remove the stun. ALL of your CCs last 25% longer. Remove an addition stack of stability.

Rending shatter/Maim the disillusioned- Make them work like blinding dissapation. AoE 5 stacks centered on you when you shatter. Maybe do something similar with shattered strength also, flat 5 might on shatter.

Mental anguish- leave it alone.

Blinding Dissipation- An ICD would ruin this trait, may as well replace it at that point… It should be dodge-able though.

PU- returned to +1 sec. Then change Mass invis base duration to 7 secs and veil base to 5 secs.

Bountiful disillusionment- Doesnt feel ‘bountiful’ should inc the number of boons.

Mender’s purity- fix the bugs, then leave it alone.

Persisting Images/protect phantasms- does anyone even use these? Maybe combine them?

Illusionary inspiration/temporal enchanter- Fine the way they are… but disappointed about there not being a DPS-oriented GM in inspiration (wish Harmonious Mantras was in this tree).

Master of frag- seems kinda weak… and I really think that Diversion should be AoE baseline. IDK what to do with it.

Malicious Sorcery- IF it works the way that the discription suggests and increases the attack speed of ALL of our skills with a scepter equiped, then i think its pretty solid. I want to use a working version.

Master of Misdirection- I hate that this trait counts toward the condition duration cap. Should make it work like the necro’s scepter trait so its not wasted in a condition build that caps flat +duration.

Illusionary Leap- definately should be 900 range.

Scepter AA- OMG please fix it already… would a small splash radius on this really be game breaking?

Phantasmal mage/Disenchanter- should have an extra bounce. Mage should inflict 2 stacks of burning for 4 secs.

All i can think of right now…

Actually, what about staff autoattack? I rarely see any mention of it, but the burning took a major nerf. In particular, if the mesmer AA were buffed while the clone AA remained weaker it could be a substantial boost to PvE staff/condi play without breaking PvP nearly as badly as, say, entirely un-nerfing MtD+CD.

Photoloss.4817:

Actually, what about staff autoattack? I rarely see any mention of it, but the burning took a major nerf. In particular, if the mesmer AA were buffed while the clone AA remained weaker it could be a substantial boost to PvE staff/condi play without breaking PvP nearly as badly as, say, entirely un-nerfing MtD+CD.

I think the staff auto is fine… popping 3 staff clones out and AFKing while you wait for Chaos storm to come off cooldown is already our best condition setup (a little hyperbolic, but thats how it feels). I’d perfer they improve our access to conditions across all weapons with some adjustments to our traits and shatters.

Mikkel.8427:

Mistrust should be combined with the revised Confusing Combatants that got scrapped at the last minute… Its a super weak grandmaster, especially compared with the other two options. It doesn’t even work underwater atm on top of it.

PS- don’t bother linking a vid to someone using this trait vs Menders in silverwaste…. We all know Interrupt traits are disproportionately effective against them.

oh hell yes, this is an excellent idea!

holy cow why not just ask them to undo every buff we got before the patch. The post would be shorter to read.

Mikkel.8427:

I think the staff auto is fine… popping 3 staff clones out and AFKing while you wait for Chaos storm to come off cooldown is already our best condition setup (a little hyperbolic, but thats how it feels). I’d perfer they improve our access to conditions across all weapons with some adjustments to our traits and shatters.

Are you talking PvP or PvE? For the latter it still underperforms (and technically 3 iDuelists should be more dps), for the former I suggested only giving significant increases to the mesmer’s autoattack, so you’re locked out of stealth shenanigans, charging mantras and other skill casts while reaping the benefits of such a buff.

I myself would much prefer MtD+CD to get un-nerfed for a while, if only to see how “broken” it can really get. Chaotic Dampening in particular sounds like a really nice design, since it’s easy to reap the maximum benefit in PvE while trying to do so in PvP would quickly get you killed, wasting your primary escape for CDR and following a very predictable rotation. We need more skills like that if they don’t want to implement actual splits between game modes.

Photoloss.4817:

Embolism.8106:

Mender’s Purity – Synergises rather too well with Mantra of Recovery, although without Harmonious Mantras it only triggers once (the first cast) per MoR channel… but if that gets fixed, this should have an ICD of 10s.

Bad for PvE, both for cleansing through some annoying pulses and stacking up damage modifiers from HM during burst reflect phases.

Embolism.8106:

Temporal Curtain – I understand not being able to get Swiftness if you already have it is to prevent people stacking lots and lots of Swiftness, but it makes this skill incredibly clunky especially when using it for travel. Reduce the duration of Swiftness from 12s to 5s and let it stack properly. If people want to stutter around in one spot for 5s to get lots of Swiftness, let them.

HECK NO! Completely ruins the skill for open world travel. Just give it a “purple rectangle” dummy buff that lasts 10s and prevents you from receiving further swiftness from curtains.

Also no word on how the entire Chaos line is next to worthless for PvE, Domination is one glorified damage modifier and neither phantasm survival nor shatter received significant updates.

As with all other threads: fix the global power creep FIRST, then start working on builds/traits if the FotM burst even still exists at that point. Start on CS because that’s worthless in PvE/bad in group PvP, then start trading burst vulnerability for continuous application.
Oh, and stop focusing on 1v1, both for mesmer design (Anet) and balance suggestions (everyone else)!

Mesmers do have other options for cleansing, not to mention in the current bugged form giving MP an ICD would only reduce the conditions cleansed per channel by 2 if using HM and none at all if not. As for HM’s damage buff, giving MP an ICD would only reduce the number of stacks you can get from MoR by 1. add another MoP and you’re good to go.

@Temporal Curtain: I would’ve thought that allowing you to stack 5s of Swiftness over and over by stuttering over the Curtain would make it better for overworld travel, that’s the reason I suggested it. Sure you need to stick around the curtain for a few seconds but the Swiftness you get in the end would be much, much longer.

Mikkel.8427:

May as well respond to everything else while im at it…

Confounding Suggestions- Remove the stun. ALL of your CCs last 25% longer. Remove an addition stack of stability.

Rending shatter/Maim the disillusioned- Make them work like blinding dissapation. AoE 5 stacks centered on you when you shatter. Maybe do something similar with shattered strength also, flat 5 might on shatter.

Mental anguish- leave it alone.

Blinding Dissipation- An ICD would ruin this trait, may as well replace it at that point… It should be dodge-able though.

PU- returned to +1 sec. Then change Mass invis base duration to 7 secs and veil base to 5 secs.

Bountiful disillusionment- Doesnt feel ‘bountiful’ should inc the number of boons.

Mender’s purity- fix the bugs, then leave it alone.

Persisting Images/protect phantasms- does anyone even use these? Maybe combine them?

Illusionary inspiration/temporal enchanter- Fine the way they are… but disappointed about there not being a DPS-oriented GM in inspiration (wish Harmonious Mantras was in this tree).

Master of frag- seems kinda weak… and I really think that Diversion should be AoE baseline. IDK what to do with it.

Malicious Sorcery- IF it works the way that the discription suggests and increases the attack speed of ALL of our skills with a scepter equiped, then i think its pretty solid. I want to use a working version.

Master of Misdirection- I hate that this trait counts toward the condition duration cap. Should make it work like the necro’s scepter trait so its not wasted in a condition build that caps flat +duration.

Illusionary Leap- definately should be 900 range.

Scepter AA- OMG please fix it already… would a small splash radius on this really be game breaking?

Phantasmal mage/Disenchanter- should have an extra bounce. Mage should inflict 2 stacks of burning for 4 secs.

All i can think of right now…

CS – I think your suggestion would make CS not taken at all.

Rending/Maim/Strength – these traits stack intensity while Blinding stacks duration, that’s probably one of the reasons the latter doesn’t scale with Illusions shattered. I don’t see the purpose of changing them.

Mental Anguish – Mesmer burst is a bit strong right now, and one of the issues is with MoD it’s trivial to get full benefit from this trait. That said reducing it to +20% max seems a bit lacking for a GM, maybe make it also buff CoF and Diversion duration by say +25%/50%?

Blinding Dissipation – why would an ICD ruin this trait? Ineptitude has an ICD and the blind portion is pretty nice. It’s a strong condition.

Persisting/Protected – I’d agree with merging them, they’re pretty similar. Should have another Phantasm trait in Inspiration probably, there’s one in each tier but none of them seem worth taking.

Inspiration/Temporal – why do you think they’re fine? Inspiration is on a 30s CD which makes it hard to take advantage of unless you save your Phants for it (bad idea), and Temporal’s duration increase is of marginal benefit to Portal, Veil and Warp and the buff is difficult to apply to allies with Portal, Veil or (depending) Feedback. 2s of Super Speed is also questionable.

Menders purity having an ICD isn’t really a good idea. You actively make the choice to use mantra of restoration and have the faffing around with that for the superior cleansing. Remember, you can very easily be interrupted when channeling the mantra and so you generally need to protect yourself somehow, whether that be stealth, distortion or just plain old backing out of a fight for 3s. All of which have drawbacks in wasting defence to heal.

As far as the HM buff goes, it’s a non issue, blowing it all for a small buff like that is dumb. Getting a 8-16% damage buff by double tapping it is also less of an issue as if you went HM you lost out on clone production so shatters will usually be 1 clone down. The extra clone is more damaging.

apharma.3741:

Menders purity having an ICD isn’t really a good idea. You actively make the choice to use mantra of restoration and have the faffing around with that for the superior cleansing. Remember, you can very easily be interrupted when channeling the mantra and so you generally need to protect yourself somehow, whether that be stealth, distortion or just plain old backing out of a fight for 3s. All of which have drawbacks in wasting defence to heal.

As far as the HM buff goes, it’s a non issue, blowing it all for a small buff like that is dumb. Getting a 8-16% damage buff by double tapping it is also less of an issue as if you went HM you lost out on clone production so shatters will usually be 1 clone down. The extra clone is more damaging.

Giving MP an ICD would not affect MoR without Harmonious at all (because of the bug) and reduce the conditions you cleanse by 2 with Harmonious. And there are other reasons to use MoR, such as the much higher healing potential (especially with Harmonious and Restorative) and being able to heal while CCed. The channel as you pointed out isn’t difficult to cover for, even with just Phase Retreat.

Also, I think people should remember that MP is a group cleanse, not just a self-cleanse. Actually now that I think about it maybe that should be changed, in which case I’d be more open to keeping MP without an ICD (or a shorter one).

Embolism.8106:

Giving MP an ICD would not affect MoR without Harmonious at all (because of the bug) and reduce the conditions you cleanse by 2 with Harmonious. And there are other reasons to use MoR, such as the much higher healing potential (especially with Harmonious and Restorative) and being able to heal while CCed. The channel as you pointed out isn’t difficult to cover for, even with just Phase Retreat.

Also, I think people should remember that MP is a group cleanse, not just a self-cleanse. Actually now that I think about it maybe that should be changed, in which case I’d be more open to keeping MP without an ICD (or a shorter one).

The higher healing comes with a cost. Using HM means your shatters do less damage by a considerable margin. Using MoR without HM should give you 3 cleanses in a 10s time frame, 1 on cast, 2 on mantra use. To channel it again as I say you need to protect it, any interrupt Mesmer worth its salt will be waiting and when you do it with phase retreat they’ll be ready.

They will not only deny you your heal but have had a massively easy interrupt, deal damage and put it on a 15s cool down. Effectively, you’re dead.

Any warrior, thief, necro, engineer and even ranger would have an easy time denying you your heal. That’s without mentioning if you use your decoy, MI, blink or PR you won’t have it to disengage if pressured and you end up out of a fight for nearly 3s. There’s a reason why most classes have moved onto passive or protected heals, it’s for these reasons.

As for the ICD thing, it’s a bug, it shouldn’t work like that and you know it. Putting any form of ICD on MP will most certainly affect it with and without HM, please don’t insult my intelligence or anyone else’s here by saying otherwise.

MoR is only good with restorative mantras or HM and it’s debatable if it’s really worth it without both due to the likelihood of interrupts (whether it be an enemy or you having to interrupt due to burst coming).

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

Giving MP an ICD would not affect MoR without Harmonious at all (because of the bug) and reduce the conditions you cleanse by 2 with Harmonious. And there are other reasons to use MoR, such as the much higher healing potential (especially with Harmonious and Restorative) and being able to heal while CCed. The channel as you pointed out isn’t difficult to cover for, even with just Phase Retreat.

Also, I think people should remember that MP is a group cleanse, not just a self-cleanse. Actually now that I think about it maybe that should be changed, in which case I’d be more open to keeping MP without an ICD (or a shorter one).

The higher healing comes with a cost. Using HM means your shatters do less damage by a considerable margin. Using MoR without HM should give you 3 cleanses in a 10s time frame, 1 on cast, 2 on mantra use. To channel it again as I say you need to protect it, any interrupt Mesmer worth its salt will be waiting and when you do it with phase retreat they’ll be ready.

They will not only deny you your heal but have had a massively easy interrupt, deal damage and put it on a 15s cool down. Effectively, you’re dead.

Any warrior, thief, necro, engineer and even ranger would have an easy time denying you your heal. That’s without mentioning if you use your decoy, MI, blink or PR you won’t have it to disengage if pressured and you end up out of a fight for nearly 3s. There’s a reason why most classes have moved onto passive or protected heals, it’s for these reasons.

As for the ICD thing, it’s a bug, it shouldn’t work like that and you know it. Putting any form of ICD on MP will most certainly affect it with and without HM, please don’t insult my intelligence or anyone else’s here by saying otherwise.

MoR is only good with restorative mantras or HM and it’s debatable if it’s really worth it without both due to the likelihood of interrupts (whether it be an enemy or you having to interrupt due to burst coming).

HM isn’t just for MoR, it’s also MoD as I’m sure you’re aware. Phase Retreat was a low CD example, obviously it isn’t reliable (hence why I said “even with”).

What I’m getting at is people seem to be suggesting that most channels of MoR is going to get interrupted, when that isn’t the case if you play it right. The flip side is yes you need to cover the channel with defenses, but the gain is almost 3x the HPS of Ether Feast. That’s not a small thing and can be well worth it, not to mention active defense and healing sometimes go hand-in-hand so you won’t be sacrificing anything if that’s the case.

Whether MP not working on MoR’s channel and last cast is a bug or not (it is) is irrelevant. My point is this is how it works in practice currently, so that should be what you’re comparing the impact of an ICD to, not some theoretical best case that none of us have actually experienced or currently “rely” on.

All you need is to make Confounding Suggestions require an interrupt to proc the stun (otherwise, you just get the longer-duration daze).

When not stunned, mirror blade is super easy to dodge. Even if the mesmer stealth opens on you, you can usually dodge after the first bounce. The only exception is if the mesmer is literally inside your hitbox.

The reason burst on mes feels out of control is because the guaranteed instant-stun from CS+MOD makes it super easy for mesmers to land the burst. The best solution to this is to remove the guaranteed instant-stun, and to instead hook it onto something that requires skill and has counterplay. Simply increasing the ICD won’t change anything, because the mesmer only needs 1 stun burst to wreck you.

Once you take away the guaranteed instant-cast stun, mesmer goes back to being the class with the huge-but-predictable burst.

Also, I’m not sure mental anguish needs any nerfing. Power block already beats it out in PvP, and I don’t think mesmer damage is a problem in PvE.

Embolism it isn’t a “theoretical maximum” it’s how it was pre patch. The only thing they changed is it went from cleanse 2 conditions to cast power cleanse. Which may I add is arguably worse as power cleanse has a 1s CD to it so you can end up double tapping MoR and not getting the second cleanse.

Also 240 range AoE cleanse, yeah GL getting much benefit out of that.

apharma.3741:

Embolism it isn’t a “theoretical maximum” it’s how it was pre patch. The only thing they changed is it went from cleanse 2 conditions to cast power cleanse. Which may I add is arguably worse as power cleanse has a 1s CD to it so you can end up double tapping MoR and not getting the second cleanse.

Also 240 range AoE cleanse, yeah GL getting much benefit out of that.

I know how it was pre-patch, and going from 1 conditions cleansed to 2 is a pretty big deal. If it was reduced back to 1 condition I’d be content to leaving it without an ICD.

240 range is good enough when on point, really.

ResJudicator.7916:

All you need is to make Confounding Suggestions require an interrupt to proc the stun (otherwise, you just get the longer-duration daze).

When not stunned, mirror blade is super easy to dodge. Even if the mesmer stealth opens on you, you can usually dodge after the first bounce. The only exception is if the mesmer is literally inside your hitbox.

The reason burst on mes feels out of control is because the guaranteed instant-stun from CS+MOD makes it super easy for mesmers to land the burst. The best solution to this is to remove the guaranteed instant-stun, and to instead hook it onto something that requires skill and has counterplay. Simply increasing the ICD won’t change anything, because the mesmer only needs 1 stun burst to wreck you.

Once you take away the guaranteed instant-cast stun, mesmer goes back to being the class with the huge-but-predictable burst.

Also, I’m not sure mental anguish needs any nerfing. Power block already beats it out in PvP, and I don’t think mesmer damage is a problem in PvE.

I’d thought about making CS be on interrupt only, but I don’t know. That seems to overlap too much with Chaotic Interruption.

Mental Anguish is pretty popular, not everyone can use Power Block effectively. PvE generally prefers not to Shatter anyway (which I think needs addressing too).

Embolism.8106:

Mesmers do have other options for cleansing, not to mention in the current bugged form giving MP an ICD would only reduce the conditions cleansed per channel by 2 if using HM and none at all if not. As for HM’s damage buff, giving MP an ICD would only reduce the number of stacks you can get from MoR by 1. add another MoP and you’re good to go.

Right now MoR+HM alone gives 5 stacks, meaning you aren’t forced to take MoP in the first place if it’s only about burst reflect.

Embolism.8106:

@Temporal Curtain: I would’ve thought that allowing you to stack 5s of Swiftness over and over by stuttering over the Curtain would make it better for overworld travel, that’s the reason I suggested it. Sure you need to stick around the curtain for a few seconds but the Swiftness you get in the end would be much, much longer.

Do you have any idea how annoying that is? Guardian symbol is bad enough having to stand in it, but actively running backwards for a questionable movespeed gain? Even then I doubt getting more than 5-6 stacks is feasible without dodge rolls, meaning you’d have to do this every 25 seconds! Also consider the 5s of effectively standing still vs. the distance loss of only having ~60% swiftness uptime (before boon duration)

ResJudicator.7916:

…and I don’t think mesmer damage is a problem in PvE.

It is, but in the other direction :P Bad overall dps, insane spike against multi-hit projectiles (Lupi 1shot)

Embolism.8106:

ResJudicator.7916:

All you need is to make Confounding Suggestions require an interrupt to proc the stun (otherwise, you just get the longer-duration daze).

When not stunned, mirror blade is super easy to dodge. Even if the mesmer stealth opens on you, you can usually dodge after the first bounce. The only exception is if the mesmer is literally inside your hitbox.

The reason burst on mes feels out of control is because the guaranteed instant-stun from CS+MOD makes it super easy for mesmers to land the burst. The best solution to this is to remove the guaranteed instant-stun, and to instead hook it onto something that requires skill and has counterplay. Simply increasing the ICD won’t change anything, because the mesmer only needs 1 stun burst to wreck you.

Once you take away the guaranteed instant-cast stun, mesmer goes back to being the class with the huge-but-predictable burst.

Also, I’m not sure mental anguish needs any nerfing. Power block already beats it out in PvP, and I don’t think mesmer damage is a problem in PvE.

I’d thought about making CS be on interrupt only, but I don’t know. That seems to overlap too much with Chaotic Interruption.

Mental Anguish is pretty popular, not everyone can use Power Block effectively. PvE generally prefers not to Shatter anyway (which I think needs addressing too).

Chronophantasma + Persistence of Memory = permanent phantasms.

I’m still working on various rotations, but I’m pretty sure I can keep up 2 iduelists and an iwarlock or idefender pretty much all the time, while still shattering MW every time it’s off cooldown.
I’m trying to tune it for a condi build, and you can see my initial effort in my thread, but it’s certainly not limited to condi. (I think Silverkey was already playing with the idea, coming from a different direction).

The point is, with Persistence of Memory (which btw is gonna be amazing with Chronomancer, don’t you dare touch it), you can have a build that is a shatter build AND a phantasm build.

Photoloss.4817:

Embolism.8106:

Mesmers do have other options for cleansing, not to mention in the current bugged form giving MP an ICD would only reduce the conditions cleansed per channel by 2 if using HM and none at all if not. As for HM’s damage buff, giving MP an ICD would only reduce the number of stacks you can get from MoR by 1. add another MoP and you’re good to go.

Right now MoR+HM alone gives 5 stacks, meaning you aren’t forced to take MoP in the first place if it’s only about burst reflect.

Okay, but 4 stacks vs 5 isn’t earth-shattering. And MoP is great.

@Temporal Curtain: fair enough, I was thinking you might be able to stack more than that. Using Temporal with SoI is annoying however and something should be done.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Embolism.8106:

ResJudicator.7916:

All you need is to make Confounding Suggestions require an interrupt to proc the stun (otherwise, you just get the longer-duration daze).

When not stunned, mirror blade is super easy to dodge. Even if the mesmer stealth opens on you, you can usually dodge after the first bounce. The only exception is if the mesmer is literally inside your hitbox.

The reason burst on mes feels out of control is because the guaranteed instant-stun from CS+MOD makes it super easy for mesmers to land the burst. The best solution to this is to remove the guaranteed instant-stun, and to instead hook it onto something that requires skill and has counterplay. Simply increasing the ICD won’t change anything, because the mesmer only needs 1 stun burst to wreck you.

Once you take away the guaranteed instant-cast stun, mesmer goes back to being the class with the huge-but-predictable burst.

Also, I’m not sure mental anguish needs any nerfing. Power block already beats it out in PvP, and I don’t think mesmer damage is a problem in PvE.

I’d thought about making CS be on interrupt only, but I don’t know. That seems to overlap too much with Chaotic Interruption.

Mental Anguish is pretty popular, not everyone can use Power Block effectively. PvE generally prefers not to Shatter anyway (which I think needs addressing too).

Chronophantasma + Persistence of Memory = permanent phantasms.

Yeah, Chronomancer is why I didn’t suggest anything to make Shatters more attractive in PvE. Gonna wait to see how it plays out.

Embolism.8106:

I know how it was pre-patch, and going from 1 conditions cleansed to 2 is a pretty big deal. If it was reduced back to 1 condition I’d be content to leaving it without an ICD.

240 range is good enough when on point, really.

Clearly you don’t know how it was.

240 if on point as the current meta with zerker or marauder is suicide for channeling and I wouldn’t use my personal heal to cleanse someone unless they absolutely needed it, even then it’d be questionable to jump onto point, use 2 charges and zip off using what would most likely be half your cool downs.

Edit: I remember there was someone who said they hadn’t played in about 2 years, was it you?

Embolism.8106:

@Temporal Curtain: fair enough, I was thinking you might be able to stack more than that. Using Temporal with SoI is annoying however and something should be done.

Any arguments against a unique dummy buff apart from the inability to implement such a simple mechanic for 3 years?

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

I know how it was pre-patch, and going from 1 conditions cleansed to 2 is a pretty big deal. If it was reduced back to 1 condition I’d be content to leaving it without an ICD.

240 range is good enough when on point, really.

Clearly you don’t know how it was.

240 if on point as the current meta with zerker or marauder is suicide for channeling and I wouldn’t use my personal heal to cleanse someone unless they absolutely needed it, even then it’d be questionable to jump onto point, use 2 charges and zip off using what would most likely be half your cool downs.

Edit: I remember there was someone who said they hadn’t played in about 2 years, was it you?

That’s me. I misremembered sorry, and I used to use MoR with Mender’s… that said with the way Mantras used to work it was much, much less effective, you generally wanted to blow all your casts once you started to avoid wasting CD; so it’s not that comparable to the current situation. Plus it used to be a major trait IIRC.

Like I said though, if the group cleanse was removed I’d be open to letting it slide more.

If conditions are being applied to multiple people then using a charge is helping you as well as everyone else, so it’s a pretty good deal.

Photoloss.4817:

Embolism.8106:

@Temporal Curtain: fair enough, I was thinking you might be able to stack more than that. Using Temporal with SoI is annoying however and something should be done.

Any arguments against a unique dummy buff apart from the inability to implement such a simple mechanic for 3 years?

Given this is the obvious solution and people have cried about it for a long time I’m assuming they can’t do it, hence suggesting workarounds.

Embolism.8106:

That’s me. I misremembered sorry, and I used to use MoR with Mender’s… that said with the way Mantras used to work it was much, much less effective, you generally wanted to blow all your casts once you started to avoid wasting CD; so it’s not that comparable to the current situation. Plus it used to be a major trait IIRC.

Like I said though, if the group cleanse was removed I’d be open to letting it slide more.

If conditions are being applied to multiple people then using a charge is helping you as well as everyone else, so it’s a pretty good deal.

Ok, just to back up my point. Check out this 2 man mesmer comp that played abjured last Go4. It’s the full stream but they pick it up VERY well throughout the 3 games what I was saying. All the time the mesmers would have to charge that mantra which took them out of the fight for 3s. When they used the last charge in a fight, they were dead. They even had used timewarp, a 3 minute cool down to make sure they got the charges off.

Also pay attention to positioning, how often did you see the mesmers stood on point or around their team? It’s not often because zerker = dies in seconds when focused and there’s no better way to get focused than being in the middle of the point as zerker.

If you still don’t get it maybe Pyro will be able to drill it in how much of a cost that is.

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

That’s me. I misremembered sorry, and I used to use MoR with Mender’s… that said with the way Mantras used to work it was much, much less effective, you generally wanted to blow all your casts once you started to avoid wasting CD; so it’s not that comparable to the current situation. Plus it used to be a major trait IIRC.

Like I said though, if the group cleanse was removed I’d be open to letting it slide more.

If conditions are being applied to multiple people then using a charge is helping you as well as everyone else, so it’s a pretty good deal.

Ok, just to back up my point. Check out this 2 man mesmer comp that played abjured last Go4. It’s the full stream but they pick it up VERY well throughout the 3 games what I was saying. All the time the mesmers would have to charge that mantra which took them out of the fight for 3s. When they used the last charge in a fight, they were dead. They even had used timewarp, a 3 minute cool down to make sure they got the charges off.

Also pay attention to positioning, how often did you see the mesmers stood on point or around their team? It’s not often because zerker = dies in seconds when focused and there’s no better way to get focused than being in the middle of the point as zerker.

If you still don’t get it maybe Pyro will be able to drill it in how much of a cost that is.

Thanks for the stream, it’s fun and educational.
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I don’t see many cases of the Mantra channel costing them dearly. In situations where the Mesmers died or were forced away from lack of charges it seems like another healing skill would still be on CD, and in many cases it’s an outnumbered situation that was going south anyway.
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I see quite a few successful in-combat channels with teleports or just temporarily disengaging. Most of these occur after a quick succession of discharges, again meaning other healing skills would be on CD; so overall it’s a point for MoR rather than against.
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As for being taken out of the fight for 3s, if they’re not being pressured they seem to channel when the fight lulls, and in any case Mesmers are for burst damage rather than constant pressure; unless you need a burst right in that 3s it doesn’t really affect a Mesmer’s effectiveness much.
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With regards to using Time Warp to secure a channel, I only saw that twice. The first time he had to blow 3 charges, so any other healing skill would definitely be on CD; plus if he wasn’t able to heal during the stun burst he would’ve died. The second time is the same, he just rallied, popped his healing charges, then waited for the CD before Warping up another MoR. In both cases with any other healing skill he wouldn’t get a second heal off at all.

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I never said anything about “standing in the middle of a point”, I was simply referring to fighting on/around points. Looking at the stream I see a lot of situations where a charge would cleanse allies. Just running past someone while discharging would cleanse them too.

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Overall I think the stream shows that Mantra of Recovery is very strong even without Mender’s Purity: I saw a lot of situations where MoR saved Mesmers where other heals won’t.
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As for what the casters were picking up during the stream, they said things like “X doesn’t have his Mantra charged” which given the context is no different from “X’s Heal is on CD”. With Mantras it’s just more noticeable because it can be off-CD (which after the last patch it nearly always is for most fights) yet unusable.
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It’s an interesting watch, so again thanks for that.

@Photoloss: I made another suggestion for Temporal Curtain which I’m fairly certain Anet can do. The only problem I see with it is that enemies can’t remove the buff, hence why I made it only apply Swiftness every 5 seconds.

If I had to go rebalance things…

1. Reduce MoD duration to 1/4 sec (like Headshot). Now it’s a real interrupt. I thought about this a while and I prefer this to straight-up nerfing Confounding Suggestions because I think being able to trait for Diversion to stun a target reliably is fine.

2. Reduce PU duration, but make the boons better again.

3. Reduce Blind duration on Blinding Dissipation (make it more of a momentary attack-stopper) and make sure it doesn’t go through evade/invlun.

0. Ignore all the cries about MoR because pure condition builds deserve to have a spec that just wipes the floor with them (and because, let’s be honest, there’s practically no amount of cleansing that will actually nullify all of a good condition build’s output).

ASP.8093:

0. Ignore all the cries about MoR because pure condition builds deserve to have a spec that just wipes the floor with them (and because, let’s be honest, there’s practically no amount of cleansing that will actually nullify all of a good condition build’s output).

And there’s no spec that nullifies the entire output of a direct damage build unless it’s full glass and you count 100-0’ing as “nullification”. Not saying either MoR is OP, but your reasoning is sketchy.

Embolism.8106:

Temporal Curtain – I understand not being able to get Swiftness if you already have it is to prevent people stacking lots and lots of Swiftness, but it makes this skill incredibly clunky especially when using it for travel. Make it grant a unique buff (say Temporal Swiftness) to allies that grants 5s of Swiftness every 5s and lasts for 5s (so 10s of Swiftness total). Running over another (or the same) Curtain would refresh the buff. This would allow it to play nice with existing Swiftness without being abusable.

If they can do that they can make the buff apply 12s of swiftness once (on apply), and prevent itself from being reapplied the same way they currently handle swiftness. Veil can apply a non-boon effect as a “wall”, so they have no excuse.
Heck, in Starcraft2’s editor dummy buffs are the easiest “lazy fix” to just about anything.

denis.9487:

Why do we need another post on nerfing the Mesmer. All classes can burst plain and simple. Learn to dodge practice more playing, less forum post rehash on how to nerf Mesmer.

I rather agree with this… Indeed mesmer is strong in pvp against players who don’t know how to counter, but in pve mesmers are relatively weak and restricted in their builds. Any nerfs on behalf of pvp will certainly cripple the pve mesmer.

Embolism.8106:

I don’t see many cases of the Mantra channel costing them dearly. In situations where the Mesmers died or were forced away from lack of charges it seems like another healing skill would still be on CD, and in many cases it’s an outnumbered situation that was going south anyway.

Not always, most of the time people would have already taken note of the CD on your heal and disengaged sooner or rotated out.

Embolism.8106:

I see quite a few successful in-combat channels with teleports or just temporarily disengaging. Most of these occur after a quick succession of discharges, again meaning other healing skills would be on CD; so overall it’s a point for MoR rather than against.

No, it’s a point against, at all times you have to get out of the fight to recharge that is a wasted opportunity especially against teams like the abjured. You’re also missing the number of times they had to use things like a 3 minute elite to charge it and when they had to port out. Forcing a mesmer to portal out is a plus for the enemy not for the mesmer.

Embolism.8106:

As for being taken out of the fight for 3s, if they’re not being pressured they seem to channel when the fight lulls, and in any case Mesmers are for burst damage rather than constant pressure; unless you need a burst right in that 3s it doesn’t really affect a Mesmer’s effectiveness much.

With other heals you wouldn’t even need to do that. Most use ether feast, it will be off CD by the next fight.

Embolism.8106:

With regards to using Time Warp to secure a channel, I only saw that twice. The first time he had to blow 3 charges, so any other healing skill would definitely be on CD; plus if he wasn’t able to heal during the stun burst he would’ve died. The second time is the same, he just rallied, popped his healing charges, then waited for the CD before Warping up another MoR. In both cases with any other healing skill he wouldn’t get a second heal off at all.

They would have healed him for more. Ether feast with clones heals for 7.5k near enough. That’s the same as the entire of the 3 stacks of MoR.

Embolism.8106:

I never said anything about “standing in the middle of a point”, I was simply referring to fighting on/around points. Looking at the stream I see a lot of situations where a charge would cleanse allies. Just running past someone while discharging would cleanse them too.

The point is that it’s not something that will happen often. In other words it’s more of a coincidence than by choice, certainly not grounds for changing it.

Embolism.8106:

Overall I think the stream shows that Mantra of Recovery is very strong even without Mender’s Purity: I saw a lot of situations where MoR saved Mesmers where other heals won’t.

I think it showed the drawbacks of it, sure it saved them some times but a lot of other times they needed to heal and it just wasn’t there. Had it been another heal then they may have disengaged earlier or they may have had more health left to begin with.

Both Frostball and Helseth ran this for a while and they’ve certainly come to the same conclusion, it has major drawbacks. If you can make it work in a team, that’s alright but it definitely has it’s negative points and I would say it’s about right at the moment if the bugs get fixed. Remember, power cleanse is on a 1s CD so to get the full benefit you must wait 1-2s before each use.

I certainly don’t think it needs nerfing, not the way you and others are proposing.

I mean, even assuming MoR is straight-up better than Ether Feast now… okay, so what?

Ether Feast used to be the go-to heal for nearly every serious PvP build. MoR is strong now, if you trait for it heavily. That’s reasonable. It’s not like it’s suddenly wrong that more competitive builds might take something other than Ether Feast.

Actually, I rather like how mesmer healing breaks down now:

• You have a healing skill that you can buff to be highly useful with a considerable trait investment.
• You have a healing skill that covers the basic “big burst heal to win back some initiative in a fight” niche with minimal trait investment, perfect for the most aggressive builds.
• You have a healing skill that lets you trade your skill slot for more phantasms, more or less. Strong role-player in PvE.
• You have a healing skill that lets you trade some raw healing power for reflection. Which used to be pretty much garbage but is playable now.

MoR is one of the strongest when you invest traits into it. It’s pretty clunky and terrible if you don’t.

Inspiration, despite being my favorite trait line, is far from a “no-brainer” for mesmer builds.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Mantra of Recovery is too strong: as you say if you trait for it it better be the best option. I didn’t suggest any nerfs for MoR’s healing. All I’m saying is that claiming Mender’s Purity is the only reason to take MoR over other heals is simply not true, as that stream showed quite clearly that traited MoR is very much worth it even if MP is not a factor.

That said, the nerf to Mantras in general last patch has made all of this moot. If it stays then I no longer think MP needs any nerfs. On the other hand, I think Mantras now need a buff…