Guild Wars 2

This issue is going to be discussed to death in coming days as we’re all unhappy at the changes to Alacrity, but the reason I’m making this topic as someone who rarely frequents the forums it that I’m concerned that the Developers haven’t considered the cascade effect of the alacrity change.

If the goal was to nerf the effectiveness by 50% then that’s not what has happened here, the effect itself is weaker, fine, but now the Mesmer has longer cd’s on everything, also lowering our ability even generate Alacrity at all. This toning down will result in a larger than 50% loss because we can’t keep up our previous uptime and will impact other aspects of our gameplay more than I believe is intended. I’d suggest at this time making alacrity stronger on the casting mesmer but I realise that may not be possible or desirable.

What I think Anet and other people may missing is that this also affects personal DPS. Mesmer/Chrono was already in the middle as far as DPS goes. This just lessened it even more so. And with no real boosts to any damage, this class just got pigeon holed into a utility only class for PvE.

This is really a huge blow to the class from what I can tell.

It’s still better than Guardian.

All unhappy at the changes to alacrity? Where did you see that?

Reducing the effect by 50% means the maximum CD reduction moves from 40% to 25%. That is less than 50% effectiveness loss in a sense then. Yes, it will also be harder to reach full alacrity because some cooldowns will be higher. But it’s really not that bad.

In the coming days (hours) I’m sure some people will estimate the alacrity uptime we can reach with that. And we will then most likely see that mesmer is still viable.

Even a 10-25% outgoing damage increase via cooldown reduction for a party is substantial enough to keep the class in Raid content. Ranger/Druid does and always has done very little personal damage yet is and has been used because of the damage bonuses it can apply for the rest of its party. CDR on healing effects and the likes is still extremely useful.

Snow.9862:

This issue is going to be discussed to death in coming days as we’re all unhappy at the changes to Alacrity, but the reason I’m making this topic as someone who rarely frequents the forums it that I’m concerned that the Developers haven’t considered the cascade effect of the alacrity change.

If the goal was to nerf the effectiveness by 50% then that’s not what has happened here, the effect itself is weaker, fine, but now the Mesmer has longer cd’s on everything, also lowering our ability even generate Alacrity at all. This toning down will result in a larger than 50% loss because we can’t keep up our previous uptime and will impact other aspects of our gameplay more than I believe is intended. I’d suggest at this time making alacrity stronger on the casting mesmer but I realise that may not be possible or desirable.

During streaming karl said that:

1) one mesmer makes raid to do 66% more dmg

Reality: alacrity makes skill recharge faster of 66% aka 40% less cd.

So IF every class in raid would be able to always cast cd based skill without NEVER using autoattack AND IF the raid would have no rev (or thief in future) AND IF the chrono would be able to hold up 100% uptime alacrity on other people (that is actually impossible) and IF alacrity would apply on all 10 raid member instead of just five cause target cap THEN alacrity would bring to just a 40% dmg increase.

In the reality since none of this stuff is possible alacrity bring around 25% more dmg on raid and not 66% as you stated, dear karl.

After nerf, alacrity would bring less than one half of that 25% more dmg due to the cascade effect on the skill cd that bring alacrity.

Basically alacrity will mathly become worste than a frost spirit.

2) karl stated that, due to that 66% moar dmg, every party bring a chrono an this is not fair!

karl also said that if anet would just reduce alacrity duration instead alacrity effect then people would bring 2 mesmer in raid, and that’s way worste!!!!11!!!

Now i dont get why having 3/4 war and 2/3 ele isnt an issue (in fact karl buff them) while having a single chrono in raid is such a bad thing that deserve a buff.

But then since you are speaking at devs who say stuffs like these on a public stream without realizing by theirself what they’re doing, then i suggest you to just let anet doing his nerf as they want.

Let anet kill chrono for no reason as they want to do.

Then if the class they promoted for months as alacrity based class would become unplayable in hot promoted content, and it will, for a weirldy dumb unneccessary nerf at 1st patch after release…

Well.. If you’ve bough hot to play the class they promoted for months, and that class is not working due to unneccesary nerf, just ask refund as i will.

Well aelfwe is totally right. They don’t even seem to know what they are doing. Moreover, having one or two chronos in a team should never be anything critical. But then again they feel the pressure of everyone complaining that pvp pro leagues are pointless with 2 bunker mesmers per team. Nevertheless, this should never be a reason to destroy a class in PvE.

Silverkey.2078:

All unhappy at the changes to alacrity? Where did you see that?

Reducing the effect by 50% means the maximum CD reduction moves from 40% to 25%. That is less than 50% effectiveness loss in a sense then. Yes, it will also be harder to reach full alacrity because some cooldowns will be higher. But it’s really not that bad.

In the coming days (hours) I’m sure some people will estimate the alacrity uptime we can reach with that. And we will then most likely see that mesmer is still viable.

Xyonon.3987:

Silverkey.2078:

All unhappy at the changes to alacrity? Where did you see that?

Reducing the effect by 50% means the maximum CD reduction moves from 40% to 25%. That is less than 50% effectiveness loss in a sense then. Yes, it will also be harder to reach full alacrity because some cooldowns will be higher. But it’s really not that bad.

In the coming days (hours) I’m sure some people will estimate the alacrity uptime we can reach with that. And we will then most likely see that mesmer is still viable.

The lost of effectiveness it’s not “less than 50%” it’s 60%.

As i wrote on other thread you are totally taking off from your maths they cascade effect of less CDR on chrono skill in raid enviroment.

Stop spread false statement. Do math before write, thx.

doombreaker.3710:

Well aelfwe is totally right. They don’t even seem to know what they are doing. Moreover, having one or two chronos in a team should never be anything critical. But then again they feel the pressure of everyone complaining that pvp pro leagues are pointless with 2 bunker mesmers per team. Nevertheless, this should never be a reason to destroy a class in PvE.

They should split pvp balance from pve balance or they should warning costumers that hot is supposed to be a game based upon pvp where balance would not take into consideration pve consequences instead promoting raid and chrono for months.

Since i don’t mind of pvp and i’ve bough hot for raid+chrono if they bring away from me that 2 stuff they prometed for months i just see refund as the only last option stand.

I hope that this won’t happens, but as a pve player who bought hot to play as a chrono i can just wait and see if the product they sold me it’s the same they promised me.

aelfwe.4239:

During streaming karl said that:

1) one mesmer makes raid to do 66% more dmg

I am shocked he said that, very silly thing to say. Will need to wait and see how the changes play out but I think it may cause Raid groups who were just killing Gorseval struggle and need to re-evaluate what people are doing (no bad thing to strive for better play but the consequences might be dropping that Guard or Thief player because the rest of the Raid cannot compensate for them as much).

Will need to see it live but I think a lot of people may be surprised how much Alacrity carried groups, hopefully it won’t cause too much mess.

Sceptre is on its 7th buff in a row, wonder if they are going to get it right this time :P

Silverkey.2078:

All unhappy at the changes to alacrity? Where did you see that?

Reducing the effect by 50% means the maximum CD reduction moves from 40% to 25%. That is less than 50% effectiveness loss in a sense then. Yes, it will also be harder to reach full alacrity because some cooldowns will be higher. But it’s really not that bad.

In the coming days (hours) I’m sure some people will estimate the alacrity uptime we can reach with that. And we will then most likely see that mesmer is still viable.

Im not sure why so many people think continue to focus on how big of an impact alacrity is going to have. It’s really not what the problem is here, and for most folks upset with the nerfs are probably just fine with alacrity’s effectiveness going down.

The problem is that our sustained damage is already horrible. It’s one of, if not THE worst of any class right now. This change will make that worse.They did not announce anything to mitigate that.

Right now, and after patch, there will be only one viable way to build a Mesmer in PvE, and that way makes it so that its inefficient to build a group with more than a single chronomancer. They’re basically nerfing chronobunker, while also shoehorning all mesmers into the build.

So yeah. We’re still viable. In exactly ONE way – a way that stagnates all compositions, because every group needs one, and exactly ONE, chronomancer to provide all of the quickness and alacrity, in raids preferably a tank for the encounters that need one so they can bring another burnzerker. So that’s exactly what we’ll keep doing. Whoopdie doo.

Our only out based on their feedback would have been a significant revamp to scepters to allow us to compete, or at least be considered, with other condition builds. And what did they give us?

A 5% attack speed increase to a trait nobody uses.

Coulter.2315:

aelfwe.4239:

During streaming karl said that:

1) one mesmer makes raid to do 66% more dmg

I am shocked he said that, very silly thing to say. Will need to wait and see how the changes play out but I think it may cause Raid groups who were just killing Gorseval struggle and need to re-evaluate what people are doing (no bad thing to strive for better play but the consequences might be dropping that Guard or Thief player because the rest of the Raid cannot compensate for them as much).

Will need to see it live but I think a lot of people may be surprised how much Alacrity carried groups, hopefully it won’t cause too much mess.

yeah noone does 66% more dmg, its just 40% CD reduction but good point anyway: its super strong

Sharkey.9805:

Silverkey.2078:

All unhappy at the changes to alacrity? Where did you see that?

Reducing the effect by 50% means the maximum CD reduction moves from 40% to 25%. That is less than 50% effectiveness loss in a sense then. Yes, it will also be harder to reach full alacrity because some cooldowns will be higher. But it’s really not that bad.

In the coming days (hours) I’m sure some people will estimate the alacrity uptime we can reach with that. And we will then most likely see that mesmer is still viable.

Im not sure why so many people think continue to focus on how big of an impact alacrity is going to have. It’s really not what the problem is here, and for most folks upset with the nerfs are probably just fine with alacrity’s effectiveness going down.

The problem is that our sustained damage is already horrible. It’s one of, if not THE worst of any class right now. This change will make that worse.They did not announce anything to mitigate that.

Right now, and after patch, there will be only one viable way to build a Mesmer in PvE, and that way makes it so that its inefficient to build a group with more than a single chronomancer. They’re basically nerfing chronobunker, while also shoehorning all mesmers into the build.

So yeah. We’re still viable. In exactly ONE way – a way that stagnates all compositions, because every group needs one, and exactly ONE, chronomancer to provide all of the quickness and alacrity, in raids preferably a tank for the encounters that need one so they can bring another burnzerker. So that’s exactly what we’ll keep doing. Whoopdie doo.

Our only out based on their feedback would have been a significant revamp to scepters to allow us to compete, or at least be considered, with other condition builds. And what did they give us?

A 5% attack speed increase to a trait nobody uses.

But actually I perfectly agree with you. And that is also why I am happy with the nerf. Alacrity should not be the sole answer to mesmer’s PvE problems. And the fun fact is that this sustained damage problem is also a problem in PvP, so it’s not even a problem of split balance. Reducing mesmer’s burst damage a tad (shatter) and increasing mesmer sustained damage would be really helpful in PvP. And allowing illusions to benefit from damage multipliers will not break anything in PvP, but help significantly PvE.

Only question is: why isn’t it done?

Karl is not the best with words. That’s why they have sometimes done pre-recordings of these patch notes rather than live Karl and those went much better.

Didn’t rewatch it but there is a difference between “one mesmer makes the raid to 66% more damage” and “alacrity makes the raid do 66% more damage.”
Quickness is still a thing and it doesn’t look to be getting nerfed (res/stomp aside). So yeah, 100% uptime on 50% attack speed increase and 40% CDR… I could easily call that a 66% damage increase for the raid in an offhand remark and not think he was too far off.

Sharkey.9805:

Im not sure why so many people think continue to focus on how big of an impact alacrity is going to have. It’s really not what the problem is here, and for most folks upset with the nerfs are probably just fine with alacrity’s effectiveness going down.

The problem is that our sustained damage is already horrible. It’s one of, if not THE worst of any class right now. This change will make that worse.They did not announce anything to mitigate that.

Absolutely!

That’s why some of us have been calling for all modifiers to affect phantasms. For PvP mesmers it would only be fragility that would really affect mesmer builds and that won’t break PvP since vuln is very rarely capped at 25. However, for PvE, HM would come into play as far as traits are concerned. Rune of scholar, seaweed salad, sigil of force (not going to count dungeon stuff) would also affect them as well. Importantly, most of that is mutually exclusive with the chronomancer alacrity buffs which means we would have to pick strong buffs to our team and reduced damage (rune of chrono, boon duration food, not spamming MoP).

In fact, this would also make scepter VIABLE!

Dom, Dueling, Illusions with above buffs I mentioned would have phantasms do 64% more damage in raids while only doing 12% more damage in PvP IFF the target hat 25 vuln. Spamming mantra of pain to keep up HM 20% faster with the scepter trait and only using Sc#3 between MoP spam.

Oh and I forgot the 3% per illusion up. So 79% more damage from phantasms. And again, this is a dom, duel, illusion build that would be mutually exclusive with the chrono alacrity/quickness spam. That would let us have TWO viable raid builds/roles. And it won’t affect PvP balance. In fact, this would also make staff viable. Use #3/5 and then spam MoP and we would actually be the highest DPS build in the game vs raid bosses if we had a condi engi/necro in the party.

Silverkey.2078:

Sharkey.9805:

Silverkey.2078:

All unhappy at the changes to alacrity? Where did you see that?

Reducing the effect by 50% means the maximum CD reduction moves from 40% to 25%. That is less than 50% effectiveness loss in a sense then. Yes, it will also be harder to reach full alacrity because some cooldowns will be higher. But it’s really not that bad.

In the coming days (hours) I’m sure some people will estimate the alacrity uptime we can reach with that. And we will then most likely see that mesmer is still viable.

Im not sure why so many people think continue to focus on how big of an impact alacrity is going to have. It’s really not what the problem is here, and for most folks upset with the nerfs are probably just fine with alacrity’s effectiveness going down.

The problem is that our sustained damage is already horrible. It’s one of, if not THE worst of any class right now. This change will make that worse.They did not announce anything to mitigate that.

Right now, and after patch, there will be only one viable way to build a Mesmer in PvE, and that way makes it so that its inefficient to build a group with more than a single chronomancer. They’re basically nerfing chronobunker, while also shoehorning all mesmers into the build.

So yeah. We’re still viable. In exactly ONE way – a way that stagnates all compositions, because every group needs one, and exactly ONE, chronomancer to provide all of the quickness and alacrity, in raids preferably a tank for the encounters that need one so they can bring another burnzerker. So that’s exactly what we’ll keep doing. Whoopdie doo.

Our only out based on their feedback would have been a significant revamp to scepters to allow us to compete, or at least be considered, with other condition builds. And what did they give us?

A 5% attack speed increase to a trait nobody uses.

But actually I perfectly agree with you. And that is also why I am happy with the nerf. Alacrity should not be the sole answer to mesmer’s PvE problems. And the fun fact is that this sustained damage problem is also a problem in PvP, so it’s not even a problem of split balance. Reducing mesmer’s burst damage a tad (shatter) and increasing mesmer sustained damage would be really helpful in PvP. And allowing illusions to benefit from damage multipliers will not break anything in PvP, but help significantly PvE.

Only question is: why isn’t it done?

That’s what I’m saying – it’s been 3 years since the game launched, and the problem is exactly the same as it was then. Alacrity was a selling point, something to mitigate the problem while they worked on bigger issues that the XPac had in store for mesmers.

Well, now we’re at the first balance patch, and what we got was… 5%.

So people might fuss about the alacrity stuff, and whatever. What mesmers are so mad about, though, is why is ANet still so bad at mes?

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Karl is not the best with words. That’s why they have sometimes done pre-recordings of these patch notes rather than live Karl and those went much better.

Didn’t rewatch it but there is a difference between “one mesmer makes the raid to 66% more damage” and “alacrity makes the raid do 66% more damage.”
Quickness is still a thing and it doesn’t look to be getting nerfed (res/stomp aside). So yeah, 100% uptime on 50% attack speed increase and 40% CDR… I could easily call that a 66% damage increase for the raid in an offhand remark and not think he was too far off.

Lul?

Let me wonder: you aren’t a math lover like karl right? xD

A) Quickness affect just skill without cooldown (basically AA chains or thieves) and channeled skill.

So to get the best result from quickness (that +50% raid dmg you are speaking off) you require an IDEAL raid with people casting just skill WITHOUT cooldown (AA chains\thieves) or channeled skills.

Every single skill casted from a raid member that ISNT a skill without cooldown or a channeled skill doesn’t benefit from quickness, and makes the raid dmg addition from quickness to drop from that 50%.

B) Alacrity affect just skill with cooldown (so basically it doesnt affect the 80% of skill affected from quickness).

So to get the best result from alacrity (that +40% raid dmg you are speaking off) you require an IDEAL raid with people casting just skill WITH cooldown.

Every single skill casted from a raid member that IS a skill without cooldown doesn’t benefit from ALACRITY, and makes the raid dmg addition from quickness to drop from that 40%.

RESULT:

Quickness and Alacrity aren’t ADDITIVE.

Quickness and alacrity are ALTERNATIVE.

From a math side it means that with the exception of channeled skill with a cooldown you are goin to take the 50% more dmg OR the 40% more dmg from alacrity based upon which skill are you using.

This means that on an IDEAL situation with a single chrono bringing 100% quickness and alacrity uptime on a 10 men raid the total raid dmg addiction would be between 40% and 50% -average 45%- and not 66% like you (and karl) stated.

But as i highlighted till now this is an IDEAL situation where a single mesmer would bring by hisself 100% alacrity and quickness on 10 men raid.

This isn’t possible, and it has already demostraded with maths and tons of video in past 3 months.

You can have 100% quick and alacrity uptime with a single mesmer on 5 men party enviroment but you CAN’T have 100% quick and alacrity uptime with a single mesmer on a 10 men raid.

Let’s analize raid enviroment:

Max quickness uptime from a single mesmer with 100 boon duration 2 soi + 3 weels and chrono rune on 10 men raid: around 80%.

Max alacrity uptime from a single mesmer with 100 boon duration mimic + 3 weels and chrono rune on 10 men raid: around 70%.

Put down some maths:
0.8x(50)= 40%
0.7x(40)= 28%
so the average dmg addition in raid due to quickness + alacrity is around 34%

REALITY = 34%

KARL = 66% (the double)

And you defend him?

Keep on:

Let’s add in math the skill with both cd and channeling and let’s suppose that they are the 20% of the total skill casted (they are way less than i’m 30% but i’m trying to put on your side), we will have to add to 34%:
0.2×50×40=0.41%

REALITY = 34,4%

KARL = 66% (the double)

Now let’s take into consideration that a chrono to have 100% quickness and alacrity uptime need 3 iavenger (that do 0 dmg) and need to cast wells+tw+soi+mimic etc for like 20sec every 50 sec…

let’s ask ourself how much dmg loss a chrono do compared to zerk war or ele: 50%???

Since there are 10 men in raid you can take an average of base dmg for each one of 10%.

This means chrono makes raid to lose a 5% compared to taking a war

REALITY = 29.4%

KARL = 66% (the double)

Anyway for reference:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/35627270

27:25 sec

“basically or you have a mesmer or you have 66% dmg loss”

aelfwe.4239:

REALITY = 29.4%

KARL = 66% (the double)

Thanks aelfwe for putting the math on paper so everyone can see the numbers.

As I tried to say…..it’s not about the alacrity nerf itself for me. It’s the fact that it destroys the chronomancer elite specialization in terms of PvE. Anet needs to stop focusing on PvP balance affecting all the other game modes. They should be kept separate as they are different animals with different mechanics. All the while they buffed scepter which no one uses….or at least should use except maybe in PvP/WvW.

The cascade effect is the big issue. Unfortunately the dev team doesn’t give a flying kitten what is said in the forums or what the players think.

I don’t play Mesmer much (though I do love the class) and I haven’t even finished unlocking or played much with Chrono, so take this for what you will.

What if Alacrity’s bonus was halved on other players (or if needed, on non-Mesmers?) This lets Mesmers keep their 66% and current cds so it doesn’t affect them as much while bringing down the problematic overbuffing in groups that led to this change?

Glacial.9516:

I don’t play Mesmer much (though I do love the class) and I haven’t even finished unlocking or played much with Chrono, so take this for what you will.

What if Alacrity’s bonus was halved on other players (or if needed, on non-Mesmers?) This lets Mesmers keep their 66% and current cds so it doesn’t affect them as much while bringing down the problematic overbuffing in groups that led to this change?

Whoa whoa whoa, slow down there buddy. You clearly don’t know how Anet works. There is no half measure. It’s whole ham or nothing. Frankly your suggestion offends the very nature of their SOULS.

“If we’re going to set something on fire, we’re going to burn it TO THE GROUND” ~Anet.

Unless its a buff. +5% attack speed on scepter, cuz anything more would break the game. I mean…that legendary mesmer dps. Theyre prob hiding from us +2,5% damage increase on scepter on third auto or something of similar tier..if there are indeed some more ‘buffs’ incoming.

aelfwe.4239:

A) Quickness affect just skill without cooldown (basically AA chains or thieves) and channeled skill.

Why do you think quickness and leap skills used to get wonky and would decrease leap distance? Ranger sword auto is the only auto with a leap so…. yeah quickness affects all leaps even though only one of them doesn’t have a CD.

Let’s do a simple test. Put Signet of Ether, Illusion of Life, WoR and Signet of Illusions on your bar. Get 3 illusions up. Press F5 and then try to cast all your utilities within the 6 second you get. Don’t use quickness before hand. Now try again with Seize the moment. You’ll have time to spare the second time with quickness but you won’t without it. None of these are “channeled” skills. All of them just have ~1 second cast time yet quickness affects them all.

Gravedigger has a CD but then it doesn’t have a CD… suddenly all the rules of quickness change below 50% health and now quickness affects gravedigger when it didn’t before…. right /s. Seriously though, just try rune of chrono on necro with a golem above 50% health. You can easily see the difference in attack speed with a slow but non-channeled skill like gravedigger.

Or let’s talk about another necro combo that I realized was affecting my rotation in raids: CpC, BiP, Dagger#4: Importantly, the self-cripple from CpC wears off before D#4 is cast and allows for transfer of the 3 longer lasting conditions. However, with quickness, I actually kept getting stuck with the long lasting bleed because I was transferring the cripple because those skills were activating faster. Realizing this, I had to change my rotation to CpC, 1 auto, BiP, D#4 because quickness affected all 3 of those skills that all had CDs.

So that’s a generic skill type (leap) and self test on a mesmer’s skills that aren’t channels and a necro rotation that does see the active effects of quickness on skills that are also affected by alacrity.

Quickness affects skill that are affected by alacrity

aelfwe.4239:

Put down some maths:
0.8x(50)= 40%
0.7x(40)= 28%
so the average dmg addition in raid due to quickness + alacrity is around 34%

Let’s do some slightly more REAL math and averaging:
All skills are affected by quickness (except insta cast ones but how many of those are in dps rotations for raids builds?)

This means that just 80% quickness uptime is a 40% buff to everything in the raid per your math of ONE mesmer because quickness affects it all.

Now let’s talk about how much damage is affected by alacrity. Some classes have 90% of their damage from auto attacks. Some like engi have 90% from skills with CDs that are still affected by quickness. Let’s also pick a few extra s in the middle. We can keep that 28 from the 70% uptime you have.

Theoretical 100% auto attack face roll:
1*1.4 (100% from auto attack and quickness) + 0×1.4*1.28 = 40% more damage

0.9 × 1.4 (90% of DPs from auto attacks) + 0.1×1.4×1.28 = 44%
0.5 × 1.4 + 0.5×1.4×1.28 = 60%
0.4 × 1.4 + 0.6×1.4×1.28 = 63%
0.1 × 1.4 + 0.9×1.4×1.28 = 75%
0 × 1.4 + 1×1.4×1.28 = 79%

aelfwe.4239:

let’s ask ourself how much dmg loss a chrono do compared to zerk war or ele: 50%???
Since there are 10 men in raid you can take an average of base dmg for each one of 10%.
This means chrono makes raid to lose a 5% compared to taking a war

Ok, let’s go with a mesmer does half the damage of the average other person in the party. If everyone does nothing but auto attack, that’s 9*1.4+.5 or the group doing 31% more than a group of 10 people doing “1” dps each. Now let’s try that with a 50-50 split on whether or not alacrity is affecting some skills while quickness affects it all. 9*1.60+0.5 = 49% more.

Anyhow, I didn’t say 50+40 = 90%. I know they aren’t strictly additive. Alacrity obvious doesn’t affect auto attacks but quickness does affect everything that isn’t insta cast. Like I said, Karl is a very bad public speaker. He mentioned that if alacrity duration were nerfed, then people would just bring more mesmers. This is why I think he meant that quickness/alacrity combo (when at 100% uptime) could easily be a 66% boost to a whole party. This is why they wanted to nerf the strength of the effect instead of duration.

I don’t want mesmer to suck but alacrity was OP to the point that mesmer damage had to be inherently crap. I just really hope base mesmer damage goes up a lot. Hence me writing this:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Suggestion-Phantasms-now-have-all-dmg-mods/first#post5925606

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

aelfwe.4239:

A) Quickness affect just skill without cooldown (basically AA chains or thieves) and channeled skill.

Why do you think quickness and leap skills used to get wonky and would decrease leap distance? Ranger sword auto is the only auto with a leap so…. yeah quickness affects all leaps even though only one of them doesn’t have a CD.

Let’s do a simple test. Put Signet of Ether, Illusion of Life, WoR and Signet of Illusions on your bar. Get 3 illusions up. Press F5 and then try to cast all your utilities within the 6 second you get. Don’t use quickness before hand. Now try again with Seize the moment. You’ll have time to spare the second time with quickness but you won’t without it. None of these are “channeled” skills. All of them just have ~1 second cast time yet quickness affects them all.

Gravedigger has a CD but then it doesn’t have a CD… suddenly all the rules of quickness change below 50% health and now quickness affects gravedigger when it didn’t before…. right /s. Seriously though, just try rune of chrono on necro with a golem above 50% health. You can easily see the difference in attack speed with a slow but non-channeled skill like gravedigger.

Or let’s talk about another necro combo that I realized was affecting my rotation in raids: CpC, BiP, Dagger#4: Importantly, the self-cripple from CpC wears off before D#4 is cast and allows for transfer of the 3 longer lasting conditions. However, with quickness, I actually kept getting stuck with the long lasting bleed because I was transferring the cripple because those skills were activating faster. Realizing this, I had to change my rotation to CpC, 1 auto, BiP, D#4 because quickness affected all 3 of those skills that all had CDs.

So that’s a generic skill type (leap) and self test on a mesmer’s skills that aren’t channels and a necro rotation that does see the active effects of quickness on skills that are also affected by alacrity.

About whole skills you are speaking about, If you’d read whole my previous thread before text-raging here you would know that right after beginning i wrote:

aelfwe.4239:

From a math side it means that with the exception of channeled skill with a cooldown you are goin to take the 50% more dmg OR the 40% more dmg from alacrity based upon which skill are you using.

This means that on an IDEAL situation with a single chrono bringing 100% quickness and alacrity uptime on a 10 men raid the total raid dmg addiction would be between 40% and 50% -average 45%- and not 66% like you (and karl) stated.

Then, at the end, i’ve added in the math the factor that add in the raid dmg result the dps gain from the skills that benefit from both alacrity and quickness.

The same skills you are speaking about.

reference:

aelfwe.4239:

Keep on:

Let’s add in math the skill with both cd and channeling and let’s suppose that they are the 20% of the total skill casted (they are way less than i’m 30% but i’m trying to put on your side), we will have to add to 34%:
0.2×50×40=0.41%

REALITY = 34,4%

KARL = 66% (the double)

So your conclusion:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Quickness affects skill that are affected by alacrity

In my thread was an hypotesis taken into consideration in my thougs, in my words, and even in the maths who bring to my result.

For future referece:

read before posting

- i will reply your second post in the another post-

“From a math side it means that with the exception of channeled skill with a cooldown you are goin to take the 50% more dmg OR the 40% more dmg from alacrity based upon which skill are you using.”

I did read. I am straight up disagreeing with your initial premise. There is no “exception of channeled skills” being affected by both alacrity and quickness. There is no 50% or 40%. It’s either the 50% on auto or both of them on everything else that isn’t instant cast.

I then posted 3 different ways to look at the fact that quickness affects basically every skill out there besides insta cast skills. That isn’t raging. That is disagreeing and providing 3 ways to test it.

Unless you and I have different definitions for what channeling means… I assume when people say channel they mean skills like 100b.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

aelfwe.4239:

Put down some maths:
0.8x(50)= 40%
0.7x(40)= 28%
so the average dmg addition in raid due to quickness + alacrity is around 34%

Let’s do some slightly more REAL math and averaging:
All skills are affected by quickness (except insta cast ones but how many of those are in dps rotations for raids builds?)

This means that just 80% quickness uptime is a 40% buff to everything in the raid per your math of ONE mesmer because quickness affects it all.

Now let’s talk about how much damage is affected by alacrity. Some classes have 90% of their damage from auto attacks. Some like engi have 90% from skills with CDs that are still affected by quickness. Let’s also pick a few extra s in the middle. We can keep that 28 from the 70% uptime you have.

Theoretical 100% auto attack face roll:
1*1.4 (100% from auto attack and quickness) + 0x1.4*1.28 = 40% more damage

0.9 × 1.4 (90% of DPs from auto attacks) + 0.1x1.4x1.28 = 44%
0.5 × 1.4 + 0.5x1.4x1.28 = 60%
0.4 × 1.4 + 0.6x1.4x1.28 = 63%
0.1 × 1.4 + 0.9x1.4x1.28 = 75%
0 × 1.4 + 1x1.4x1.28 = 79%

While you’re hypotesis are good (since are the same as mine xD) you ended up on bad result because at some point you forget you were calculation the dmg addiction due to quickness+alacrity in a raid enviroment.

Let me explain:

There are 2 kind of skills with a cd and a casting time\channeling who are affected from both alacrity and quickness:

A) skill with cd + casting time\channeling who doesnt do dmg (example utility like soi)

B) skill with cd + casting time\channeling who do dmg (example blurred frenzy)

Basically when you use a static coefficent (the 1,4 i’ve enlighted in your maths) you are treating at the same level A kind skill and B kind skill.

While for the B kind of skill there is a raid dmg addition due to quick+alacrity who has to be counted (and that i counted in my maths) the A kind of skills, instead, doesnt direclty bring more dmg to raid from quickness and alacrity but just indirectly from the additional AA attack that follow the faster A skill cast, and that is already counted in both our math (to be more specific it’s the left part of your part).

I’ll do an easy example to make you understand your mistake:

Let’s take a dd thief just AA chain like no tomorrow with 80% quickness uptime and a 70% alacrity uptime (our hypotesis)

Now with both our maths that thief will do an additional 40% more dmg due to quikness.

Now let’s take the same hypotesis and thief and let him cast 1 signet of malice every 9 sec of AA chain (who is possible gratz to alacrity).

In the reality the thief dmg would have a dmg loss of 10% because he’s healing every 10 sec

In your math that thief would be have a dmg INCREASE of 4% because he is healing every 10 sec

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

0.9 × 1.4 (90% of DPs from auto attacks) + 0.1x1.4x1.28 = 44%

It’s fool don’t you think? xD

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Let’s do some slightly more REAL math and averaging:

I prefer mine sorry :P

Anyway, that’s the reason in my thread i reasoned step by step and i’ve added the quick+alacrity dmg buff only at last as a specific part of the math instead counting them twice as you doing

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Ok, let’s go with a mesmer does half the damage of the average other person in the party. If everyone does nothing but auto attack, that’s 9*1.4+.5 or the group doing 31% more than a group of 10 people doing “1” dps each. Now let’s try that with a 50-50 split on whether or not alacrity is affecting some skills while quickness affects it all. 9*1.60+0.5 = 49% more.

You should do 9,5×1,60 if you count mesmer doing 50% less dmg than other one.

That’s why i removed 5% of total dmg at the end, in this way you arent counting the alacrity+quick effect on mesmer and you remove a 7%.

Your issue is anyway that 1,60 who is totally kittened up, as i showed you in my previous post you are counting as double dmg gain casting every single skill with a casting times as heals, utility with no dmg and so on.

That 1,60 comes out from your maths, and you maths are stating that a thief casting a signet of malice every 10 sec while autoattacking under quickness+alacrity do a 4% more dmg than a thief that just aa always under quickness+alacrity.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

“From a math side it means that with the exception of channeled skill with a cooldown you are goin to take the 50% more dmg OR the 40% more dmg from alacrity based upon which skill are you using.”

I did read. I am straight up disagreeing with your initial premise. There is no “exception of channeled skills” being affected by both alacrity and quickness. There is no 50% or 40%. It’s either the 50% on auto or both of them on everything else that isn’t instant cast.

I then posted 3 different ways to look at the fact that quickness affects basically every skill out there besides insta cast skills. That isn’t raging. That is disagreeing and providing 3 ways to test it.

Unless you and I have different definitions for what channeling means… I assume when people say channel they mean skills like 100b.

Since my explaination has been made step by step to avoid people missunderstanding, you should have gone through my “initial premise” to realize that it wasnt a “premise” but an hypotesis i used as the first step of a step by step explaination where at the end i added the factor i took out with the “initial premise”.

My final math was DPS GAIN = A+B+C

A = Direct dmg addiction from quickness
B = Direct dmg addiction from alacrity
C = Direct dmg addiction from both quickness and alacrity

Stopping at 1st line isnt the best thing ever

Edit: Okay I see what you’re saying now. Ironically it took about 10 seconds after posting for it to click.

What you’re saying is that Quickness boosts the number of autoattacks you can get into your rotation (and very minimally decreases the cd for cd skills). While Alacrity increases the number of cd skills that you can fit into it.

The problem with averaging the two is that not everyone who has useful cd skills has a useless autoattack and vice versa. Both ‘sides’ are benefiting from both Quickness and Alacrity, though perhaps not equally from each.

No idea why you add Damage increase from Quickness and from Alacrity twice.

Knowing the benefits from Quickness and Alacrity is even more complex than just doing what DuckDuckGo said (while his math is closer to truth).

Every rotation will need to be calculated separately and every rotation will benefit differently from, separately, quickness and alacrity.

Basic assumptions like +50% damage from quickness because people hit faster or +66% damage because cooldowns are shorter (please Anet why you do this?) are dumb.

Greetings…

After reading all the posts of the past days, I hade not only a couple of face palms … Sadly it’s not possible to adress all of them, but the most important ones are:

• Quickness affects every skill that isn’t instant. It doesn’t matter if it has a cool down, it affects the cast time of the skill, increasing the “damage per invested s cast time”.

• Alacrity get’s tuned down from 66% to 33%. In fact it’s 1.66 to 1.33. This reduces the max CDR from 40% to 25% wich means, if you had 100% uptime before patch and past patch, the CD increase by 25%, like from 60s to 75s for a skill with 100s CD.

Greez!
- Madame Le Blanc

Miku Lawrence.6329:

No idea why you add Damage increase from Quickness and from Alacrity twice.

Knowing the benefits from Quickness and Alacrity is even more complex than just doing what DuckDuckGo said (while his math is closer to truth).

Close to truth?

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Theoretical 100% auto attack face roll:
1*1.4 (100% from auto attack and quickness) + 0×1.4*1.28 = 40% more damage

0.9 × 1.4 (90% of DPs from auto attacks) + 0.1×1.4×1.28 = 44%
0.5 × 1.4 + 0.5×1.4×1.28 = 60%
0.4 × 1.4 + 0.6×1.4×1.28 = 63%
0.1 × 1.4 + 0.9×1.4×1.28 = 75%
0 × 1.4 + 1×1.4×1.28 = 79%

I’m gonna retranslate it in real example:

A) Thief with alacrity+quickness spamming just one for duck maths makes +140% dmg

B) Thief with alacrity+quickness casting 1 signet of malice every 10 sec and spamming AA for the last 9sec over 10 for duck math makes 144% dmg (casting an heal for duck math bring to a 4% dmg increase compared to just AA chain)

C) Thief with alacrityquickness casting AA for 5 sec and then casting malice+shadow trap-> destroying it+smoke screen+scorpion wire+basilisk venom for the last 5 sec for duck math makes +160% dmg (casting an heal + no dmg utility\elites for duck maths bring to a 20% dmg increase compared to just AA chain)

Miku Lawrence.6329:

No idea why you add Damage increase from Quickness and from Alacrity twice.

Duck added quickness and alacrity twive in the math you call closer to truth, that’s why if you apply duck math to real example you have that casting every skill with a casting and a cd (like an heal) bring to an hypotetic dmg increase.

That math bring to so much broken result that calling it “close to truth” makes the engeneer in me to want to cry

About the “complex” part it’s the reason i used dmg intervasl to estimate an average dmg increase for both quickness and alacrity.

And before claim it being bad cause complex you would be suprised to know how many stuffs 1000000x times more complex than quick and alacrity are calculated in the real world using interval, statistic and average model.

From the building you are living in, to bridges you cross with your car to the air behaviour when you take a plane.

Ah for the last stuff, i have not added quick and alacrity twice, i have just added the inderect dps gain that comes from a faster cast of skills with a casting time\channeled that comes from having quickness in term of additional time last to cast something else.

In average, and not doubling them as duck.

Edit: i delete the reply part to xyopone cause i have missinterpretated him

Anet should really rethink Alacrity because percent based effects are notoriously hard to balance.

Obtena.7952:

Anet should really rethink Alacrity because percent based effects are notoriously hard to balance.

If i’d be an anet game designer i’d change alacrity in this way:

1) i’d make alacrity similar as spotter, strenght in numbers, assassin presence and empowered allies and i’d give it as a minor master trait replacing “flow of times” in the chronomancer line.

Alacrity would become something like this “increas skill recharge rate of nearby allies of a 20%” radius of 600, pulse every 3 sec and duration x sec as spotter.

2) then i’d bring all alacrity related trait of chrono line as “all well that end well” and “improved alacrity” and i’d change them in something like “you gain a x% more dmg when affected by alacrity” and “you attak y% faster while affect by alacrity”. These trait would apply only on mesmer.

In this way the alacrity effect would be easyer to be maneaged because it would be a static effect permanent up (with a lower value than nerf), so that devs can easily forecast how it will interact with other class skills (basically since it’s perma up it could be tough like an addition weapon skill cd reduction every class had in every line).

The lower effect of the alacrity itself (16% cd reduction from 20% faster recharge rate) would be compasated from a 100% uptime on a party and from the related trait i’ve spoken in point 2 who would add some personal chrono dmg to cover a bit the lack to our dmg in way to grant mesmer 1 spot in raid.

This would be open up to different viable build too, since the lower alacrity effect is something passive and we arent more bounded to cast wells and mimic to spread it, we would be able to buff while focusing on other support (moar quick or way not even healing if they’d change healing prism internal cd) or just do more dmg without being a buff bot right now.

It will last to think just how to change iavenger but it nevem mind since this patch is made all upon pvp without any interested to get pve better giving every class a spot in raid or more viable builds.

And the pve\pvp balanced splitted that they promoted 2 years ago and that will solve all issue by itself it’s something they arent going to do.

This is the result.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

No idea why you add Damage increase from Quickness and from Alacrity twice.

Knowing the benefits from Quickness and Alacrity is even more complex than just doing what DuckDuckGo said (while his math is closer to truth).

Every rotation will need to be calculated separately and every rotation will benefit differently from, separately, quickness and alacrity.

Basic assumptions like +50% damage from quickness because people hit faster or +66% damage because cooldowns are shorter (please Anet why you do this?) are dumb.

I did say “slightly more real math.” ;D I realize this is much more complicated but then I would have to just start recording all the rotations with and without a chrono and calculate coeffs per sec… and I’m not going to do that. That’s also why I tried picking a few ratios of auto attacks to CD skills to get a general gist of how much both can do. Which of those ratios will depend on which class: engi being more towards CD skills while thief is almost exclusively “auto attack skills” unaffected by alacrity.

@Aelfwe
“Put down some maths:
0.8x(50)= 40%
0.7x(40)= 28%
so the average dmg addition in raid due to quickness + alacrity is around 34%
REALITY = 34%”

Regardless of you saying we do or don’t have the same hypothesis, this is wrong. You don’t average these two together. I did read further but further doesn’t matter if this step is already wrong.

When it comes to your categories, WHY would a thief ever cast signet of malice? The DD rotation is staff skills, dodge occasionally, never use your signets and cast FF on CD if I recall correctly. The vast majority of DPS classes don’t have that many “category C” skills. Maybe one with their #6. And any class isn’t going to cast their heal more often just because they can. Show me the warrior that is spamming Healing Signet because alacrity/quickness “make it so good to spam!?” Whether or not a class uses their category C skills is dependant on the fight and a person with or without both buffs will cast it as needed. If you want to get a bit more closer to the real math though, fine:

Without quickness/alacrity person:
0.8 (A) X 1 + 0.1 (B) X 1 + 0.1 © X 0
That assumes a person does ~10% category C skills that do zero damage.
With quickness/alacrity @ 100% uptime:
0.82 (A) X 1.5 + 0.11 (B) X 1.5 X 1.4+ 0.07 © X 0

Just because a person can spam C skills more often doesn’t mean it will just cause. Assuming a real fight, the same person would have to use their heal skills at roughly the same time. It just takes less time 0.07 instead of 0.1 of the fight. This also means they have an extra 0.03 fraction of the fight for A or B instead. And if the second scenario has a person really needing to spam their heal more often, no alacrity person is dead >_>. So either way, introducing this new category makes alacrity/quickness stronger.

Look at the burnzerker or PSEA warrior rotations. How many category C skills are there? I guess banners if you want to count those but 100% instead of 75% uptime on banners because of alacrity is a huge boost to the team. Look at condi engi or condi necro: Nothing is a category C skill besides healing turret. The necro uses a heal minion that never dies with 95% dmg reduction.

EDIT:
Ok all that bolding got weird when I started using () and B. Was also still sipping coffee and not fully awake. When I said A, B ,C, I meant:
A) Only affected by alacrity
B) Affected by both and damaging
C) affected by both but non damaging
DPS rotations try to minimize or have zero use of C if possible.

“My final math was DPS GAIN = A+B+C
A = Direct dmg addiction from quickness
B = Direct dmg addiction from alacrity
C = Direct dmg addiction from both quickness and alacrity”

That is counting alacrity and quickness twice because you have alacrity in B and C and still add them together. And then A and C is adding quickness twice.

66% increased cooldown recharge is, under for alacrity perfect circumstances (dps comes form cooldowns only, without any cast times), a 66% damage increase, NOT a 40% increase. A skill with 1000 dmg and 10s cd deals 1000/10=100 dps without and 1000/(10*0.6) = 166 dps with alacrity.

A 50% reduction in cd would allow you to use the skill twice as often, resulting in a 100% dmg increase. A 40% reduction in cd is, indeed, a 66% dps gain for those skills.

This means, 100% uptime on both is something between 50-66%. While Miku Lawrence is right, this is still a good estimate. If you keep both buffs on only two other people, you could do 0 damage and you still would be a dps gain.

And even with 33% alacrity, you’re still able to dish out crazy amonts of quickness. Mesmer will have a secure spots in raids. Alacrity is still very good.

One thing I agree on however, is that the cooldowns on both well of Precognition and Recall need their cooldowns adjusted by ~10 seconds. But that’s pretty much it.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

@Aelfwe
“Put down some maths:
0.8x(50)= 40%
0.7x(40)= 28%
so the average dmg addition in raid due to quickness + alacrity is around 34%
REALITY = 34%”

Regardless of you saying we do or don’t have the same hypothesis, this is wrong. You don’t average these two together. I did read further but further doesn’t matter if this step is already wrong.

If there is something who makes me sad is people who keep quoting a single part of a post to use it “to get right”

Since my full post is still there everyone can fully read it by theirselves and check that it was a step by step explaination where i started from thehypothesis you keep to quote to add everyother variables to the final result.

This is the how every single theorem it’s resolved.

People can also see how much you are pathetic to keep on purpose to quote the beginning of the post purposely ignoring other steps and the final result just to “have right”.

About that “why signet of malice” it’s either a dumb question or a kitten question.

Obviusely it was an example to show up how much broken are you math, you can replacing thief autoattacking with a ps war autoattaking and signet of malice with a banner, if you prefer, and result would be the same: a totally broken up result from a totally broken up math from a totally broken perspective.

Then if you still want to kill your dignity to avoid the reality of the mistake your doing, i cant do anything about that, except hoping in futere scholar system to be better.

Have fun extrapolating single part of my post to get right mate <3

Molch, that’s not really how it works. Let’s assume I have no quickness but 100% alacrity.

Let’s also say that 1000 damage skill has a 10 second CD. It now has a 6 second CD with alacrity. DPS over 30 seconds:
Without alacrity, I would get to use it 3 times
With alacrity, I would get to use it 5 times.
For simplicities sake, all skills have 1 second activation time and auto attacks do 500 damage.
So without alacrity, I get (27 × 500 + 3 X 1000)/30 seconds = 550
With alacrity, I get (25 × 500 + 5 × 1000)/30 seconds = 583
That is 6% not a 66% increase in DPS.

But what if the skill that does 1000 damage has a 4 second CD (something more akin to engi or burnzerker F1):
Without alacrity, I would get to use it 7.5 times
With alacrity, I would get to use it 12.5 times.

So without alacrity, I get (22.5 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/30 seconds = 625
With alacrity, I get (17.5 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/30 seconds = 708
Or a 13% increase

You can go in and change the values of 500 or 1000 or just add more skills in there and it will get more complex but as you can see, the “DPS increase” of one skill is not the same as the DPS increase of the actual build. That’s why Miku was saying that the math is iffy. It’s much more complicated.

As far as applying quickness to everything, it’s easy. 50% attack speed means those rotations are done in 20 seconds instead of 30

So without alacrity, I get (22.5 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/30 seconds = 625
With alacrity, I get (17.5 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/30 seconds = 708
So without alacrity+quickness, I get (22.5 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/20 seconds = 937
With alacrity and quickness, I get (17.5 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/20 seconds = 1062
1062/625 = 70% increase.

Just general response to the thread with this. As you can see, I apply quickness to everything but I’m only applying alacrity to skills with CDs. So quickness stacks with alacrity but alacrity doesn’t necessarily stack with quickness.

*Technically, this math is also not true since the CD of skills don’t start until they are done activating

aelfwe.4239:

.

Put down some maths:
0.8x(50)= 40%
0.7x(40)= 28%
so the average dmg addition in raid due to quickness + alacrity is around 34%

REALITY = 34%

KARL = 66% (the double)

And you defend him?

Keep on:

Let’s add in math the skill with both cd and channeling and let’s suppose that they are the 20% of the total skill casted (they are way less than i’m 30% but i’m trying to put on your side), we will have to add to 34%:
0.2×50×40=0.41%

REALITY = 34,4%

KARL = 66% (the double)

Now let’s take into consideration that a chrono to have 100% quickness and alacrity uptime need 3 iavenger (that do 0 dmg) and need to cast wells+tw+soi+mimic etc for like 20sec every 50 sec…

let’s ask ourself how much dmg loss a chrono do compared to zerk war or ele: 50%???

Since there are 10 men in raid you can take an average of base dmg for each one of 10%.

This means chrono makes raid to lose a 5% compared to taking a war

REALITY = 29.4%

KARL = 66% (the double)

Happy? I’m now quoting more of your post.
“0.2×50×40=0.41%”
This is still wrong and then you add it to the wrong number from the start.

Molch.2078:

A 40% reduction in cd is, indeed, a 66% dps gain for those skills.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

…but as you can see, the “DPS increase” of one skill is not the same as the DPS increase of the actual build.

I hope you see the difference now.

Edit:
500 autos, 1000 dmg skill with 10s cd, all has 1s cast time.

Without anything: over10s you do (1000dmg + 9×500dmg)/10s = 550 dps

With both: 1s cast time without quicknes = 0.66s with quicknes. You cast 1000 dmg in 0.66 s, then, in 6s cooldown, you can cast 6/0.66 = 9.09 autohits.
(1000dmg + 9.09*500dmg)/(6s+0.66s) = 832.65dps

832.65/550 = 1.514 -> 51% dmg increase, as expected between 50% and 66% and also much closer to 50% (the value of quicknes) since most of the damage comes from aa.

So, yeah. That IS how it works.

Molch.2078:

66% increased cooldown recharge is, under for alacrity perfect circumstances (dps comes form cooldowns only, without any cast times), a 66% damage increase, NOT a 40% increase. A skill with 1000 dmg and 10s cd deals 1000/10=100 dps without and 1000/(10*0.6) = 166 dps with alacrity.

A 50% reduction in cd would allow you to use the skill twice as often, resulting in a 100% dmg increase. A 40% reduction in cd is, indeed, a 66% dps gain for those skills.

I disagree

This means, 100% uptime on both is something between 50-66%. While Miku Lawrence is right, this is still a good estimate. If you keep both buffs on only two other people, you could do 0 damage and you still would be a dps gain.

I absolutely agree.

I’m just being a stickler while also spelling out some math for other people in this topic. Specifically, when you say DPS of a skill, that isn’t really a thing when it comes to DPS calculations since DPS is the combination of everything over time. Actually looking at even the most recent post in my math, I realize I’m still not fully awake. Let me edit that.

You are arguing semantics, but as you wish:

Skills with a cooldown (and no activation time) have their contribution to the total dps of a rotation, build or class increased by 66% while under the effect of alacrity.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

As far as applying quickness to everything, it’s easy. 50% attack speed means those rotations are done in 20 seconds instead of 30

So without alacrity, I get (22.5 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/30 seconds = 625
With alacrity, I get (17.5 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/30 seconds = 708
So without alacrity+quickness, I get (22.5 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/20 seconds = 937
With alacrity and quickness, I get (17.5 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/20 seconds = 1062
1062/625 = 70% increase.

Woops, dividing by 20 isn’t the right way to go about this because in 20 seconds, that means I get to use less skills with CDs.

7.5 and 12.5 CD skill usage means 4.95 and 8.25 seconds of their use with quickness. That means 25.05 and 21.75 seconds of auto attack that take 0.66 seconds each. It should look something more like this:

So without alacrity, I get (22.5 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/30 seconds = 625
With alacrity, I get (17.5 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/30 seconds = 708
So without alacrity+quickness, I get (40 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/30 seconds = 916
With alacrity and quickness, I get (33 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/30 seconds = 966
So just quickness: 916/625 = ~47%
Just alacrity: 708/625= 13%
Both: 966/625 = ~55%

Molch.2078:

You are arguing semantics, but as you wish:

Skills with a cooldown (and no activation time) have their contribution to the total dps of a rotation, build or class increased by 66% while under the effect of alacrity.

Yup ;D
I’m just in lab waiting on a few incubations and have the time to argue a bit. I do agree overall with what you’re saying.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

I did say “slightly more real math.” ;D I realize this is much more complicated but then I would have to just start recording all the rotations with and without a chrono and calculate coeffs per sec… and I’m not going to do that. That’s also why I tried picking a few ratios of auto attacks to CD skills to get a general gist of how much both can do. Which of those ratios will depend on which class: engi being more towards CD skills while thief is almost exclusively “auto attack skills” unaffected by alacrity.

Pretty much, can’t be bothered myself. But is it possible to get an estimate by adding [Cooldown+Casttime] for common skills in a rotation til we reach about 180 seconds of skill queue, then just redo it with a 40%/25% CDR on each skill?

For Elementalit that would be (I rounded skill numbers down).

• 1s Fireball
• 4s Lavafont
• 24s Overload
• 24s Meteor Shower

That would translate in :

• 45 Lavafonts
• 7 Overloads
• 7 Meteor Showers
• Overload and Meteor Shower have ~8 sec Casttime combined, so about 60 seconds wasted casting them over 180 seconds. So We’d be able to cast about 60 Fireballs.

And with Alacrity (40% CDR)

• 1s Fireball
• 2.4s Lavafont
• 16s Overload
• 16s Meteor Shower

Which is :

• 75 Lavafonts
• 11 Overloads
• 11 Meteor Showers
• Overload and Meteor Shower have ~8 sec Casttime combined, so about 90 seconds wasted casting them over 180 seconds. So We’d be able to cast about 90 Fireballs.

I totally missed every possible Aftercast but this is kittenty math anyways.
You now just need to know damage dealt by each of the 4 skills with 25 might/25 vuln/banners/stuff/food and compare the numbers you get by adding everything up (which will be expressed as Total Damage over 180 seconds).
———————————————————————————-
And with Alacrity (25% CDR)

• 1s Fireball
• 3s Lavafont
• 19s Overload
• 19s Meteor Shower

Which is :

• 60 Lavafonts
• 9 Overloads
• 9 Meteor Showers
• Overload and Meteor Shower have ~8 sec Casttime combined, so about 72 seconds wasted casting them over 180 seconds. So We’d be able to cast about 72 Fireballs.

Edit: Actually just add up coefficients, checked it myself…

Current Alacrity boosts Ele’s damage by aprox 77% in a 180 second rotation.

Oh boy I never tought this thread would explode so much o.O

Molch.2078:

Skills with a cooldown (and no activation time) have their contribution to the total dps of a rotation, build or class increased by 66% while under the effect of alacrity.

This is correct. Nothing to say more about it.

Meanwhile quickness increases your dps by 50%, if you are only using skills with a cast time higher than 0 and without CD.

And then there is the mix of those two together, wich is affected by rotation and uptime.

btw – what are we talking about here anyway?

Interesting when Anet is confronted by math that disputes their points we don’t hear a peep in response.

We’re talking damage boost done by alacrity (/quickness). It’s not 66% like devs/people here said because every rotation has a diffrent value, for instance if you refer to the above post ele gains 77% more DPS in a 180 s fight.

Xyonon.3987:

Molch.2078:

Skills with a cooldown (and no activation time) have their contribution to the total dps of a rotation, build or class increased by 66% while under the effect of alacrity.

This is correct. Nothing to say more about it.

Meanwhile quickness increases your dps by 50%, if you are only using skills with a cast time higher than 0 and without CD.

And then there is the mix of those two together, wich is affected by rotation and uptime.

btw – what are we talking about here anyway?

The problem with this is, it’s ANet basically saying “Mesmer needs a nerf to their DPS support, because other classes have too much DPS and benefit too much from the support.”

I’m not even saying they’re wrong; I think they’re right, there are some classes with wildly unbalanced DPS, and their DPS becomes even more wildly unbalanced with Alacrity/Quickness. Trouble is, Mesmer DPS is not wildly unbalanced. It is, in fact, in the tank. So when they nerf our DPS support, and don’t actually do anything to fix our dismal DPS itself, it’s a one-two punch to Mesmer viability.

That’s what we need to be talking about here, math arguments aside.

EDIT: Just to add, 4 months ago, during the last beta weekend, Alpha made a comment about how, if alacrity made icebow too strong, that probably says more about icebow than it does about chrono or alacrity. I made a joke about how icebow was OP, so Mesmer needs a nerf. That joke is bittersweet as hell, now.

That’s what really kittenes me off. This affect the core of the chrono. His value, without rebalance the CDs of the skills, the trait line… even the damage if necesary. Making all the content in the game harder for the chrono. And some imposible because it was in the limit to accomplish it. (Precognition included)

And all due to a external reason. It doesn’t matter if a raid want to “carry” or not the incoming version of the chronomancer. We lose in all areas of the game with the incoming changes. I’ll wait until the patch, but do not expect any good news seeing how they trivialize a fundamental change for us.