Guild Wars 2

Hello fellow Mesmers! I have been playing Mesmer for 3 years now and I cannot give up the profession even in its current state of affairs. I have a condi/shatter main that I have been running in its currently traited state since before last season. Although I have tweaked sigils and utils combos, but the core has remained unchanged. Furthermore, I also have a dps alt Mesmer currently in the experimental stages, but in unranked (and few ranked) it has performed better than expected imho. At the heart of each build is something I believe is still one of the greatest strengths of the Mesmer profession, something few are exploring: Boon Stripping. Please take a look at each of the builds and let me know what you think:

1)main conditions staff/sc-torch main: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAW7flknhy0YbawUNQtGLNH1ZCUABQ9huoPK6F0PTGA-TJRBABgVGo5nAg/7PAwFBAA

2)alt dps gw/sh-sh: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8elknhy0YbawUNQtGLpGl5NcNBV9zOtXL5DcABAA-TJhGABA8EA4uMQ87PowFBAA

why strip boons if you can play necro and turn them into condis

That’s funny.

I’ve been struggling in Season 2 for quite some time. I’ve always played a lockdown playstyle and it just wasn’t getting it done this season.

So last week, I made some tweaks to my build and I’m again starting to move up the ladder. One of those changes that I made was adding “Arcane Thievery”. It really needs a lower cooldown, but I’m able to use it to strip away stability and thus open up the “lockdown” play style.

I’m still “tweaking” it, so I hadn’t made a post about it. But it fits nicely with your post.

Chrono-Rupt: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8en0nBlph1oBupBEgiFhj6MD2gQzsAKlAouTD1SF-TZBFABiXGAgHCwCXAgbPCABv/AA

Lexander.4579:

why strip boons if you can play necro and turn them into condis

True, necros can do that, but at what cost? The necromancer is at a much better place than Mesmer in the current meta. Having stated that, mesmers can do it equally well and that without any negative effects to themselves (e.g. if necro does it via corruption). The point being, that mesmers can reclaim a vital role in team play by reconsidering something that, imho, is a real asset. Can’t tell you how many times I have seen elementalists go down quickly after removing their regeneration, protection; especially if they are trying to bunker on a point and refuse to disengage. So, its about finding things Mesmers can do to help themselves and help their teams in the long run; rather than reducing a great profession to a moa/portal bot or getting into an “insta” kill mentality when Mesmers are capable of a whole lot more.

Soothsayer.9206:

Lexander.4579:

why strip boons if you can play necro and turn them into condis

True, necros can do that, but at what cost? The necromancer is at a much better place than Mesmer in the current meta. Having stated that, mesmers can do it equally well and that without any negative effects to themselves (e.g. if necro does it via corruption). The point being, that mesmers can reclaim a vital role in team play by reconsidering something that, imho, is a real asset. Can’t tell you how many times I have seen elementalists go down quickly after removing their regeneration, protection; especially if they are trying to bunker on a point and refuse to disengage. So, its about finding things Mesmers can do to help themselves and help their teams in the long run; rather than reducing a great profession to a moa/portal bot or getting into an “insta” kill mentality when Mesmers are capable of a whole lot more.

You prioritize stronger aspects of your profession.

For mesmer now, it is portal and double elite cast, not boon strip/

SlimChance.6593:

That’s funny.

I’ve been struggling in Season 2 for quite some time. I’ve always played a lockdown playstyle and it just wasn’t getting it done this season.

So last week, I made some tweaks to my build and I’m again starting to move up the ladder. One of those changes that I made was adding “Arcane Thievery”. It really needs a lower cooldown, but I’m able to use it to strip away stability and thus open up the “lockdown” play style.

I’m still “tweaking” it, so I hadn’t made a post about it. But it fits nicely with your post.

Chrono-Rupt: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8en0nBlph1oBupBEgiFhj6MD2gQzsAKlAouTD1SF-TZBFABiXGAgHCwCXAgbPCABv/AA

Thanks! How’s your tweaking going? I still tweak and theory craft and then try to contact other experienced players (some are nice enough to respond in game, others… well…) to help and get alternate/competing types of feedback. The thing most people are concerned about is synergy, but I find that concept quite subjective (with reference to both the player and to the team). I have been rethinking it with respect to 2 considerations: 1) internal synergy – does my build work well within itself – traits lines commensurate to weapons, or utils and/or the role (e.g. what its designed to do – bunker, roam, support, etc.)assigned by the player. Does the equipment accentuate/promote what I envision; and finally,does it actually work in real time. 2) external synergy – how do I fit with my teams concept of my assigned role (can I do what my team needs me to do?).

I say this because I believe current players are “Mesmer-ized.” They have a very narrow vision of synergy and the roles Mesmer can effectively and efficiently play. I noticed you have 2 mantras in your build, how are you doing with them while recharging them in combat? I like Mantras too (still considering them on my dps build) but in situations where you have to recharge them, have you considered Bountiful Disillusionment rather than Chaotic Interruption; for the stability while you are recharging them especially in combat (way to many ways to get stunned, knocked down, etc). The other thing is taking Dueling over Inspiration – a hard choice because of the condi removal on shatters. The upside is that you can either buttress your Mantras or take deceptive evasion (clone production). Also, Fencer’s Finese is a good one to up your overall damage. I would like to hear more about what you’re doing with you build especially how/what tweaks you are considering! Again, thx for the post!

Exciton.8942:

Soothsayer.9206:

Lexander.4579:

why strip boons if you can play necro and turn them into condis

True, necros can do that, but at what cost? The necromancer is at a much better place than Mesmer in the current meta. Having stated that, mesmers can do it equally well and that without any negative effects to themselves (e.g. if necro does it via corruption). The point being, that mesmers can reclaim a vital role in team play by reconsidering something that, imho, is a real asset. Can’t tell you how many times I have seen elementalists go down quickly after removing their regeneration, protection; especially if they are trying to bunker on a point and refuse to disengage. So, its about finding things Mesmers can do to help themselves and help their teams in the long run; rather than reducing a great profession to a moa/portal bot or getting into an “insta” kill mentality when Mesmers are capable of a whole lot more.

You prioritize stronger aspects of your profession.

For mesmer now, it is portal and double elite cast, not boon strip/

This is exactly what I am talking about. I do not believe Portal or Moa are stronger than Arcane Thievery, Null Field and Time Warp. Mesmers are capable of far more than those 2! Its easy to disrupt portal(experienced players will always find ways to engage you in combat so that time expires on the set up(can’t always run and hide), and with the very long cast time on Moa, there are to many ways to miss (-just watch esl how many portals/moas are you seeing?). I would much rather focus on a target, strip him down, remove conditions on my team or myself and slow/super speed (with the trait I get an extra 2 seconds on Glamour aoe). I also have Continuum Shift, so I can do Time Warp 2 times if necessary(24 seconds of slow/super speed – 4 seconds of resistance – not much but still better than missing with Moa). So, I do believe I am playing to my strengths and have good priorities with both of these builds, especially with my main build because it has so much condi pressure.

Up until last week, my build was traited in Dom/Duel/Chrono. I would take Harmonious Mantra with MoD and Mantra of Resolve (for condition cleaning). So I’ve always run with 2 mantra’s, and I’ve gotten used to it.

Like I said in S1, I did pretty well with that build. But this season with the changes to the matchmaking and the hard nerfs that chrono had taken, I’ve been struggling.

That forced me to take a look at my build and try to change some things. My first change came after seeing “My Name is PI’s” latest youtube video. (Can’t find it right now to link it.) The build he was running, provided the base that I came up with.

From his vid’s I started to see how Chronophantasma & Mental Defense served mulitple purposes. With 2 blocks on shield, two tough phantasms could easily be generated and quickly replaced. So this provide sustain in this crazy meta AND illusions for stronger shatters.

And it goes without saying the Inspiration helps with the condi removal, to say the least. Which further helps with the sustain in this meta.

So that’s Insp/Chrono, after that it was a question of either Dom or Chaos for the “lockdown” portion. And really as a trait line, Chaos gels better with the build. Master of Manipulations helps out the blinks and the Arcane Thievery, and of course it wouldn’t be a “lockdown” if not for Chaotic Interruption.

Because of the 2 charge mantra’s, its very difficult to take down some of the current bunker/bruiser builds that are currently out there (1v1). Thats more about some of the current OP bunkers that are in the game then mantras.

But in team fights, a quick strip of “stability” with AT followed by a daze/stun/knockdown.. and “multiple” 3 illusion shatter….leads to some good results.

I won’t lie, I really miss HM and 3 mantra charges. And AT really could use a lower cooldown. Its still very buggy. and 45 seconds is WAY too long for what it does.

Again, I’m not exactly “lighting up” PvP right now, but this is the kind of Mesmer I want to play. And its nice to see some results from it.

Its mainly to do with opponent’s accessibility to boons. Mesmer has already fall behind boon applications in the past 2-3 years, not to mention amount of pulsing boons (herald) or passive boons (engi and ele) that were thrown around with HoT.

All vital traitlines are more or less dedicated to survivals now, simply because domination got outgunned badly.

Oh and arcane thievery could actually be useful if it doesn’t have a kittening kitten CD. Every condi removal or boon removal skills have siginificantly lower CD than this skill.

If arcane thievery has reduced CD for the number of boons stripped and conditions transferred it’d be a much more attractive ability. Something like 4s per boon gained and condition removed (for the total of 24s CD reduction).

Soothsayer.9206:

…Can’t tell you how many times I have seen elementalists go down quickly after removing their regeneration, protection; especially if they are trying to bunker on a point and refuse to disengage.

The ele goes down a lot faster if you moa him.

Arcane thievery can’t have cd reduced I guess, reason is the condition stats (I am Mesmer too) so don’t eat me hehe.

While it might not be attractive for power build it can be attractive to anything with condition, can be even PCV. =p

And I think they should control the boons spamming more than focusing on boons removal ><

As was otherwise mentioned, Mesmer boon stripping has pretty much remained untouched since the beginning of the game. At the beginning of the game, Mesmer was a potent anti-boon class, and this was great.

However, boons have become increasingly common and spammable as time has passed. This means that Mesmer boon strip has become less and less effective. Null field was once a powerful zoning ability; now it’s pretty much completely ignorable. Shattered concentration was once strong enough to be a potent boon counter; now it merely takes the edge off the might everyone is stacking, and opens small gaps in protection uptime.

It certainly would be easiest if Anet power crept our boon strip along with everything else in this game, but it would be far healthier if they instead reigned in the ridiculous accessibility of powerful boons.

Also, arcane thievery is garbage. It’s always been garbage, but it’s even more garbage now than it used to be…

Fay.2357:

As was otherwise mentioned, Mesmer boon stripping has pretty much remained untouched since the beginning of the game. At the beginning of the game, Mesmer was a potent anti-boon class, and this was great.

However, boons have become increasingly common and spammable as time has passed. This means that Mesmer boon strip has become less and less effective. Null field was once a powerful zoning ability; now it’s pretty much completely ignorable. Shattered concentration was once strong enough to be a potent boon counter; now it merely takes the edge off the might everyone is stacking, and opens small gaps in protection uptime.

It certainly would be easiest if Anet power crept our boon strip along with everything else in this game, but it would be far healthier if they instead reigned in the ridiculous accessibility of powerful boons.

Also, arcane thievery is garbage. It’s always been garbage, but it’s even more garbage now than it used to be…

Considering boons are like crutches for most builds, taking them away even for a few seconds can be devastating because it can interrupt the rhythm (dictating direction and tempo) of the fight in your favor as it can overwhelm, almost instantly, by forcing a foe to withdraw, burn certain utils and heals much faster than they desired. In some instances, taking away certain boons, even for a few seconds, allows damage thresholds to be reduced which allows for a better application of damage all around – it can trigger a cascade or downward spiral effect on some builds. The point being is, if you enemy is reliant on something taking it away, even for a short time, is an advantage for you. With reference to team fights, its a much better to the team in the long term because it is more reliable than what is currently being pushed in meta build imho. Having the ability to strip the target (arcane thievery) and strip condis off a friend bunking point and potentially stripping a melee foe of more boons (null field) on same point is far better.

As far as Null Field and Arcane Thievery, I would rather have both of them fighting a necromancer(just one example) rather than either of Signet of Illusions (long cast and cool down times – blockable, etc.) which usually sits idle in your your utilities, and/or portal (long cool down, limited tactical application) which is usually interrupted by someone engaging you in combat(experienced players know this, you cannot always disengage). Stealing might, regen and 1 other boon, from a necromancer while removing added conditions (Arcane Thievery and Null Field) at the same time seems more reasonable than having to withdraw because of lack of sustainability. Just because something doesn’t fit into the current steam of thought, doesn’t mean it useless or garbage. Its time we started thinking more broadly about what Mesmers can do, which is why I think, that this role is more beneficial overall than most are considering.

Soothsayer.9206:

Considering boons are like crutches for most builds, taking them away even for a few seconds can be devastating because it can interrupt the rhythm (dictating direction and tempo) of the fight in your favor as it can overwhelm, almost instantly, by forcing a foe to withdraw, burn certain utils and heals much faster than they desired.

This really isn’t true at all. Even the most boon-heavy builds in the game don’t just keel over if you remove their boons suddenly. Worst case scenario most of them have emergency skills they can hit to reapply the boons or protect them for a couple of seconds.

Soothsayer.9206:

The point being is, if you enemy is reliant on something taking it away, even for a short time, is an advantage for you.

While this is technically true, it’s also a useless observation. Any sort of offensive action you take against an enemy produces some sort of positive result for you. The question is about the effectiveness of the action, not if it does something at all.

Soothsayer.9206:

Having the ability to strip the target (arcane thievery)

Once every fourty-five seconds? Yeah, I’m sure your team will really appreciate that. Plus it’s not like AT is a full wipe, it’s only 3 boons…

Soothsayer.9206:

and strip condis off a friend bunking point and potentially stripping a melee foe of more boons (null field) on same point is far better.

Condie cleanse pulsing once per second? A necro just autoattacking completely counters that, let alone multiple people spamming conditions. Does null field help? Sure. However, it has a very minor effect.

Soothsayer.9206:

As far as Null Field and Arcane Thievery, I would rather have both of them fighting a necromancer(just one example)

See, the problem here isn’t your choice of utilities, it’s that you’re trying to duel a necromancer. This is a tactical mistake on your part. You don’t rectify that by bending over backwards to make your utilities fit that duel (and pDisenchanter would be better anyhow), you fix your tactics and don’t try to duel a necro.

Soothsayer.9206:

and/or portal (long cool down, limited tactical application) which is usually interrupted by someone engaging you in combat(experienced players know this, you cannot always disengage).

I think you’re totally missing the point of portal here. It’s not supposed to be used to win a duel. It’s used to allow for greater team/personal mobility so that you can be where you need to be to effectively clinch fights or defend points. The assumption is being made that you’re competent enough of a player to both pick appropriate times to duel and to win the duels you pick without needing specific utilities to do so.

Fay.2357:

Soothsayer.9206:

Considering boons are like crutches for most builds, taking them away even for a few seconds can be devastating because it can interrupt the rhythm (dictating direction and tempo) of the fight in your favor as it can overwhelm, almost instantly, by forcing a foe to withdraw, burn certain utils and heals much faster than they desired.

This really isn’t true at all. Even the most boon-heavy builds in the game don’t just keel over if you remove their boons suddenly. Worst case scenario most of them have emergency skills they can hit to reapply the boons or protect them for a couple of seconds.

Proves my point; taking away something even for a few seconds is more useful than you give credit for. Regen, protection, haste, etc anything that gives them an advantage in combat becomes a liability once its removed. Again, you also prove my point when you mention having to reapply at that point. As I have stated, the tempo and control of the battle has changed; instead of being dictated to you put yourself in a position of control. See, its not about making people “just keel over”, it can, but its not about the insta kill, its about getting the kill and the capture point and sometimes that takes a little work and creativity. So any advantage I can give myself, albeit by taking something away temporarily, is an advantage.

Soothsayer.9206:

The point being is, if you enemy is reliant on something taking it away, even for a short time, is an advantage for you.

While this is technically true, it’s also a useless observation. Any sort of offensive action you take against an enemy produces some sort of positive result for you. The question is about the effectiveness of the action, not if it does something at all.

Your point is moot, being able to handle the situation better than your opponent is all that matters, giving yourself a better chance, even in less than ideal circumstances, is the goal of every combat situation. The observation is, therefore, not useless because it does do something positive for me and negative for my opponent thereby forcing him to deal with it on my terms rather than his. Taking away strengths and turning them into liabilities is something not to be discarded even if its “effectiveness” is not optimal which is relative to the situation itself. You take what you can get.

Soothsayer.9206:

Having the ability to strip the target (arcane thievery)

Once every fourty-five seconds? Yeah, I’m sure your team will really appreciate that. Plus it’s not like AT is a full wipe, it’s only 3 boons…

Again, yes they do. You ad hominem what you don’t like, but the fact remains that it is useful, especially compared to the current meta where you have 2 utils sitting relatively dormant (sigil of illusion and portal) for extended periods of time. I would rather take 3 boons and send 3 conditions every 45 seconds than let utils with longer cool downs anyway, just sit idle. So, if by “really appreciate” you mean I can still do something beneficial rather than nothing, yes I do believe they would.

Soothsayer.9206:

and strip condis off a friend bunking point and potentially stripping a melee foe of more boons (null field) on same point is far better.

Condie cleanse pulsing once per second? A necro just autoattacking completely counters that, let alone multiple people spamming conditions. Does null field help? Sure. However, it has a very minor effect.

Staying on point is critical in pvp, so anything that helps keep my friend, or me, on point is not useless. The aoe circumference is generous enough to take advantage of all 7 seconds(traited for extra 2 seconds), not to mention 2 seconds of resist(not much, but better than 0 again necro) and 2 seconds of super speed. Again, you make my point for me. The effects are not as minor as you think, you have to be judicious about its use – its about playing smart and I can tell you that with my main, I usually get tops stats in boon stripping, condi cleanse and condi application because I think in terms of out lasting people rather than quick kills; so, yes, the little things do add up.

Soothsayer.9206:

As far as Null Field and Arcane Thievery, I would rather have both of them fighting a necromancer(just one example)

See, the problem here isn’t your choice of utilities, it’s that you’re trying to duel a necromancer. This is a tactical mistake on your part. You don’t rectify that by bending over backwards to make your utilities fit that duel (and pDisenchanter would be better anyhow), you fix your tactics and don’t try to duel a necro.

Well I don’t always get to choose who I fight(that’s why I took a hard match up in my example), and with this build I have taken down plenty of necromancer who I can out cleanse and condi apply. Plus, I get a lot of 2v or 3 v 1 situations(we just do; as mesmers we are to disruptive to ignore) or situations where we are out numbered. What ever will I do? Run just because I see a necro or am out numbered? Let me digress. I theory craft a lot and I start by looking at both what I am playing against live, and what is being used in meta in order that I might try to buttress my build to be as versatile and survivable as possible. Now, with as many necromancers that I see (avg. 2 per match on opposing team) I felt I needed to do something to increase my survivability because pvp doesn’t come neatly packaged. Hence my current build. Do I fear necromaners (pun intended), no because I feel I have put myself in the best place possible even against a hard match up and not just this match up, but as many as I can think of.

Soothsayer.9206:

and/or portal (long cool down, limited tactical application) which is usually interrupted by someone engaging you in combat(experienced players know this, you cannot always disengage).

I think you’re totally missing the point of portal here. It’s not supposed to be used to win a duel. It’s used to allow for greater team/personal mobility so that you can be where you need to be to effectively clinch fights or defend points. The assumption is being made that you’re competent enough of a player to both pick appropriate times to duel and to win the duels you pick without needing specific utilities to do so.

Not missing the point on portal, mobility is fine, but it has its limits and its time to recognize its tactical limitation within the totality of a match. Chronomancer line give a 25% movement bonus(man I remember those tug boat days) and with blink, phase retreat too(sometimes) I get around well enough in a match (my solo que teams usually have me in a home to mid rotation only because I can minor role as a bunker with my condi build) because there’s usually not a lot of ground to cover anyway. So while I can get some cheap or quick points, I can’t justify taking Portal in the place of Null Field or Arcane Thievery for the defensive and offensive elements they bring in more than a few circumstances.

I just want to say thanks to you Fay (and all the rest of those posting too) for your feed back! You’re taking time to let me get out my observations in spite of the objections. I think these discussions will benefit the Mesmer community as we explore how to continue to be viable in every venue in GW2 (especially the competitive venues) and not allow such a grand profession get reduced to a bot or a gimmick. Again, look forward to more feed back and discussion – Thx

Duel a potent engi/druid which are the boon spamming class in this meta.
Maybe record a video or two so we can see the result.

Exciton.8942:

Duel a potent engi/druid which are the boon spamming class in this meta.
Maybe record a video or two so we can see the result.

If I am able I will; to be honest I have never even once thought about recording myself(am quite a shy person to be honest), but it might be a good idea to see what things I can improve on. Having stated that, I have had to fight both of them, never an easy fight, but sometimes I win sometimes I don’t (should zig when you zag, etc. who couldn’t do better in any situation?). Let me ask this if you don’t mind: What exactly does posting a video prove other than the above? What if I run into a real noob, then I look op. What if I run into a pro league player (I feel like I am a good or solid player) and I look like a noob? Either way, its not necessarily a commentary on the build or its abilities or even my own ability(to be honest, I feel like my main’s build is better than I can play it).

Furthermore, am I supposed to cower in fear because I have to fight them, or there’s no value in boon stripping because they “spam” boons, or worse, my build “stinks” because I lost a battle against metas that are tough match ups for anyone? Again, the point is that I feel like its better than Mesmer’s current meta; for example, what do you do in a solo match up with Mesmer meta against druid/engi? Portal? Moa(the 2 skills in question; moa if you are able to land it possible advantage you don’t have burst enough to bring them down- and you might even get moa’d back), then what? If either engi or druid remain on point(which is their job), I believe I have better chance of getting some of their boons and applying constant condi pressure with everything else my build has at its disposal. Anyway, if I am able to I will – good or bad because forums like this are about improving our profession and helping one another be both better people and players imho. Thx

Soothsayer.9206:

Exciton.8942:

Duel a potent engi/druid which are the boon spamming class in this meta.
Maybe record a video or two so we can see the result.

If I am able I will; to be honest I have never even once thought about recording myself(am quite a shy person to be honest), but it might be a good idea to see what things I can improve on. Having stated that, I have had to fight both of them, never an easy fight, but sometimes I win sometimes I don’t (should zig when you zag, etc. who couldn’t do better in any situation?). Let me ask this if you don’t mind: What exactly does posting a video prove other than the above? What if I run into a real noob, then I look op. What if I run into a pro league player (I feel like I am a good or solid player) and I look like a noob? Either way, its not necessarily a commentary on the build or its abilities or even my own ability(to be honest, I feel like my main’s build is better than I can play it).

Furthermore, am I supposed to cower in fear because I have to fight them, or there’s no value in boon stripping because they “spam” boons, or worse, my build “stinks” because I lost a battle against metas that are tough match ups for anyone? Again, the point is that I feel like its better than Mesmer’s current meta; for example, what do you do in a solo match up with Mesmer meta against druid/engi? Portal? Moa(the 2 skills in question; moa if you are able to land it possible advantage you don’t have burst enough to bring them down- and you might even get moa’d back), then what? If either engi or druid remain on point(which is their job), I believe I have better chance of getting some of their boons and applying constant condi pressure with everything else my build has at its disposal. Anyway, if I am able to I will – good or bad because forums like this are about improving our profession and helping one another be both better people and players imho. Thx

And aside note: I posted the build to be both looked at and to try. Please try them, and don’t judge them hastily because they don’t fit into the style you are used to playing. See for yourself and then offer some good feedback; something beneficial to us all – Thx for the post!

Soothsayer.9206:

Exciton.8942:

Duel a potent engi/druid which are the boon spamming class in this meta.
Maybe record a video or two so we can see the result.

If I am able I will; to be honest I have never even once thought about recording myself(am quite a shy person to be honest), but it might be a good idea to see what things I can improve on. Having stated that, I have had to fight both of them, never an easy fight, but sometimes I win sometimes I don’t (should zig when you zag, etc. who couldn’t do better in any situation?). Let me ask this if you don’t mind: What exactly does posting a video prove other than the above? What if I run into a real noob, then I look op. What if I run into a pro league player (I feel like I am a good or solid player) and I look like a noob? Either way, its not necessarily a commentary on the build or its abilities or even my own ability(to be honest, I feel like my main’s build is better than I can play it).

Furthermore, am I supposed to cower in fear because I have to fight them, or there’s no value in boon stripping because they “spam” boons, or worse, my build “stinks” because I lost a battle against metas that are tough match ups for anyone? Again, the point is that I feel like its better than Mesmer’s current meta; for example, what do you do in a solo match up with Mesmer meta against druid/engi? Portal? Moa(the 2 skills in question; moa if you are able to land it possible advantage you don’t have burst enough to bring them down- and you might even get moa’d back), then what? If either engi or druid remain on point(which is their job), I believe I have better chance of getting some of their boons and applying constant condi pressure with everything else my build has at its disposal. Anyway, if I am able to I will – good or bad because forums like this are about improving our profession and helping one another be both better people and players imho. Thx

To answer your question, I play a build that isn’t reliant on boon stripping to beat those builds. I accept that boon stripping simply is an ineffective strategy and instead focus on other strengths of the class that allow me to win in other ways.

Soothsayer.9206:

Soothsayer.9206:

Exciton.8942:

Duel a potent engi/druid which are the boon spamming class in this meta.
Maybe record a video or two so we can see the result.

If I am able I will; to be honest I have never even once thought about recording myself(am quite a shy person to be honest), but it might be a good idea to see what things I can improve on. Having stated that, I have had to fight both of them, never an easy fight, but sometimes I win sometimes I don’t (should zig when you zag, etc. who couldn’t do better in any situation?). Let me ask this if you don’t mind: What exactly does posting a video prove other than the above? What if I run into a real noob, then I look op. What if I run into a pro league player (I feel like I am a good or solid player) and I look like a noob? Either way, its not necessarily a commentary on the build or its abilities or even my own ability(to be honest, I feel like my main’s build is better than I can play it).

Furthermore, am I supposed to cower in fear because I have to fight them, or there’s no value in boon stripping because they “spam” boons, or worse, my build “stinks” because I lost a battle against metas that are tough match ups for anyone? Again, the point is that I feel like its better than Mesmer’s current meta; for example, what do you do in a solo match up with Mesmer meta against druid/engi? Portal? Moa(the 2 skills in question; moa if you are able to land it possible advantage you don’t have burst enough to bring them down- and you might even get moa’d back), then what? If either engi or druid remain on point(which is their job), I believe I have better chance of getting some of their boons and applying constant condi pressure with everything else my build has at its disposal. Anyway, if I am able to I will – good or bad because forums like this are about improving our profession and helping one another be both better people and players imho. Thx

And aside note: I posted the build to be both looked at and to try. Please try them, and don’t judge them hastily because they don’t fit into the style you are used to playing. See for yourself and then offer some good feedback; something beneficial to us all – Thx for the post!

During off-season, I was playing condie mesmer taking null field, time warp and glamour trait. It is playable but far less effective than signet of illusion, moa and mental defender.

Regarding arcane thievery, I am sorry I don’t even want to try. I played that skill long time ago. It was pretty trash back then. It will only be worse just as Fay said. It needs drastic cd reduction(sth like 25 sec) to be relevant.

As for portal, it is a skill that is fundamentally different from pretty much all other skills in the game. The potential of the skill is just so high that you can always find room to improve yourself to get better out of it.

Fay.2357:

Soothsayer.9206:

Exciton.8942:

Duel a potent engi/druid which are the boon spamming class in this meta.
Maybe record a video or two so we can see the result.

If I am able I will; to be honest I have never even once thought about recording myself(am quite a shy person to be honest), but it might be a good idea to see what things I can improve on. Having stated that, I have had to fight both of them, never an easy fight, but sometimes I win sometimes I don’t (should zig when you zag, etc. who couldn’t do better in any situation?). Let me ask this if you don’t mind: What exactly does posting a video prove other than the above? What if I run into a real noob, then I look op. What if I run into a pro league player (I feel like I am a good or solid player) and I look like a noob? Either way, its not necessarily a commentary on the build or its abilities or even my own ability(to be honest, I feel like my main’s build is better than I can play it).

Furthermore, am I supposed to cower in fear because I have to fight them, or there’s no value in boon stripping because they “spam” boons, or worse, my build “stinks” because I lost a battle against metas that are tough match ups for anyone? Again, the point is that I feel like its better than Mesmer’s current meta; for example, what do you do in a solo match up with Mesmer meta against druid/engi? Portal? Moa(the 2 skills in question; moa if you are able to land it possible advantage you don’t have burst enough to bring them down- and you might even get moa’d back), then what? If either engi or druid remain on point(which is their job), I believe I have better chance of getting some of their boons and applying constant condi pressure with everything else my build has at its disposal. Anyway, if I am able to I will – good or bad because forums like this are about improving our profession and helping one another be both better people and players imho. Thx

To answer your question, I play a build that isn’t reliant on boon stripping to beat those builds. I accept that boon stripping simply is an ineffective strategy and instead focus on other strengths of the class that allow me to win in other ways.

Well, every build is reliant on its utilities, its just whether or not they fit into your role and vision/play style for your build. Also, I think that these things have a greater reward to risk factor than other things Mesmers can do. Again, you ad hominem what you don’t like, but that doesn’t make it necessarily weak. I have been playing a condi/shatter 3 yrs (my alt Mesmer is still a work in progress but its dps based), tweaking and retweaking almost ad infinitum. Finally settled on this after they nerfed alacrity but I don’t regret it one bit because I feel this build is as versatile and sustainable as I can configure it. Mesmer still has plenty of strengths as you well know, but the reason for this conversation is to improve Mesmers by bringing up variations otherwise forgotten rather than relegating the profession to a gimmick or bot or “one hit wonder.”
I too have beat them with this current configuration. Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you are one! Everytime I go against experienced players I learn something new about my build(strengths and weaknesses) and sometimes about other builds(strengths and weaknesses) so that when I encounter them again, I make the necessary adjustments tactically (i believe this Mesmer build is fine imho) not to repeat mistakes that ultimately help me to win those hard match ups. Boon stripping is not a gimmick, it simply denies what otherwise would be a strength, and in some cases that levels the playing field enough to give me a fighting chance.

Exciton.8942:

Soothsayer.9206:

Soothsayer.9206:

Exciton.8942:

Duel a potent engi/druid which are the boon spamming class in this meta.
Maybe record a video or two so we can see the result.

If I am able I will; to be honest I have never even once thought about recording myself(am quite a shy person to be honest), but it might be a good idea to see what things I can improve on. Having stated that, I have had to fight both of them, never an easy fight, but sometimes I win sometimes I don’t (should zig when you zag, etc. who couldn’t do better in any situation?). Let me ask this if you don’t mind: What exactly does posting a video prove other than the above? What if I run into a real noob, then I look op. What if I run into a pro league player (I feel like I am a good or solid player) and I look like a noob? Either way, its not necessarily a commentary on the build or its abilities or even my own ability(to be honest, I feel like my main’s build is better than I can play it).

Furthermore, am I supposed to cower in fear because I have to fight them, or there’s no value in boon stripping because they “spam” boons, or worse, my build “stinks” because I lost a battle against metas that are tough match ups for anyone? Again, the point is that I feel like its better than Mesmer’s current meta; for example, what do you do in a solo match up with Mesmer meta against druid/engi? Portal? Moa(the 2 skills in question; moa if you are able to land it possible advantage you don’t have burst enough to bring them down- and you might even get moa’d back), then what? If either engi or druid remain on point(which is their job), I believe I have better chance of getting some of their boons and applying constant condi pressure with everything else my build has at its disposal. Anyway, if I am able to I will – good or bad because forums like this are about improving our profession and helping one another be both better people and players imho. Thx

And aside note: I posted the build to be both looked at and to try. Please try them, and don’t judge them hastily because they don’t fit into the style you are used to playing. See for yourself and then offer some good feedback; something beneficial to us all – Thx for the post!

During off-season, I was playing condie mesmer taking null field, time warp and glamour trait. It is playable but far less effective than signet of illusion, moa and mental defender.

Regarding arcane thievery, I am sorry I don’t even want to try. I played that skill long time ago. It was pretty trash back then. It will only be worse just as Fay said. It needs drastic cd reduction(sth like 25 sec) to be relevant.

As for portal, it is a skill that is fundamentally different from pretty much all other skills in the game. The potential of the skill is just so high that you can always find room to improve yourself to get better out of it.

Thx for conversing – enjoying all the feed back! I teeter back and forth over Mental Defender trait, but I like the extra support from Temporal Enchanter gives – 2 seconds is sometimes an eternity (7 seconds of Null; 12 for Time Warp). I just can’t justify 1.25 second cast time on the Signet of Illusion. Again it seems like an eternity, and in many cases it far to easy to get stunned, knocked back, dazed, etc. before you can get it off. Even Moa becomes problematic for that reason.
I know Arcane Theivery has a long cool down, but for good reason, how many people would complain if you could transfer every 25 seconds or less (if you trait for it on Chaos line), but nevertheless, its a useful utility that adds condi removal/boon stripping in 1 stroke. I don’t know how Anet could buff it w/o making it op – perhaps stripping 5 and transferring 5 at once to justify the cooldown. Otherwise, it comes in real handy when you need regen, or might and to get rid of those pesky left over conditions. Furthermore its not blockable – stealing Rev boons (albeit 3) while he’s blocking, helps keep me alive sometimes.
Portal is a horse of another color. It has limited tactical use – movement only and a very long cool down. Watching ESL only reinforced my questions about its use as I watched Mesmers attempt to set it up only to get engaged in combat, or get beached on a point and therefore it just sits in util limbo. It can help steal a point once in a while(potentially), but because of the long cool down and with players watching Mesmers more closely than ever, Portal is a hard set up and sell imho.
That’s why I think Mesmers can do better.

I…don’t think ad hominem means what you think it means.

In any event, not all builds are constructed around their utilities. I use blink, portal, and well of precognition. This is a standard mobility/defensive utility set that doesn’t bring anything particularly special to my build in particular, or any matchups I might face. Instead, it facilitates my role as part of a team; allowing me to move better, stay alive, keep others alive, and execute strategies that require portal to accomplish.

I’m not saying boon stripping is a gimmick, I’m simply saying that it’s not effective, and your value estimates of the utilities are waaaaaaay off. Arcane thievery is absolute trash any way you look at it. It steals 3 boons and transfers 3 conditions on a long (fourty-five seconds) cooldown. It’s objectively worse in every way compared to pDisenchanter, and that’s even assuming the pDisenchanter gets killed almost immediately. Nobody uses the pDisenchanter because it’s really questionable in the current meta, and arcane thievery is even worse.

Additionally, you’re making the mistake of thinking that these classes rely on boons for everything, and that’s not true. Scrapper/Druid/tempest all function just fine without boons, and herald boons are not strippable due to passive upkeep.

The issue is that the opportunity cost of speccing heavily for boon strip is simply not worth it.

In your condie build, you can strip 7 boons every 32 seconds with null field. Ultimately, this doesn’t make a big difference in a fight. Null field can also be blocked and dodged, so many classes can just channel a block for its duration to ignore most of the effect. You’re also taking AT which I’ve already discussed as being bad for a lot of reasons, and that gets you 3 boons stripped every forty-five seconds.

To get that, you’re sacrificing portal. This means you now can’t allow your team to defend 2 points at once, you can’t back-cap safely, you can’t do portal plays to lord or far or creatures. While portal has a longer cooldown than null field, the impact on a match, not on a duel, is monumentally larger than null field during fights. You’re also missing out on another stronger defensive utility in place of AT. Mantra cleanse, pDisenchanter, decoy, precog…take your pick, they’re all better than AT.

Ultimately the main issue is that stripping boons simply isn’t that impactful to a fight. It just doesn’t matter all that much. If you wanted to remove boons with added punch, you go necro specced for boon corruption, not Mesmer. While Mesmer can remove boons fairly effectively, it just doesn’t make a difference in a match that you’re doing so.

I didn’t like signet of illusion’s cast time at first. But it just has so much synergy with current shatter/clone spam condie build. You benefit so much from being to shatter(more than its basic function), more condie spam, more healing, more condie clear, more alacrity.

Mental defence….I really want to take the other two traits when theorycrafting bunker mes builds. But w/o mental defence, surviving gets harder as mesmers are really squishy and we have no more bunker amulets anymore.

I really don’t think AT is OP with 25 sec CD. Just compare it to corruption boons from necro. They corrupt 3 boons on a 15-sec CD skill(10 sec traited). Even that doesn’t make it a mandatory choice for necro. They still have other ways to corrupt boons.

You are also absolutely underestimating portal. Would suggest you check out some Helseth’s gameplay video to see how he utilizes portal to carry solo queue. Mesmer’s biggest carry potential comes from portal. To be honest, I would prefer picking a necro or an ele compared to playing your build.

Fay.2357:

I…don’t think ad hominem means what you think it means.

In any event, not all builds are constructed around their utilities. I use blink, portal, and well of precognition. This is a standard mobility/defensive utility set that doesn’t bring anything particularly special to my build in particular, or any matchups I might face. Instead, it facilitates my role as part of a team; allowing me to move better, stay alive, keep others alive, and execute strategies that require portal to accomplish.

I’m not saying boon stripping is a gimmick, I’m simply saying that it’s not effective, and your value estimates of the utilities are waaaaaaay off. Arcane thievery is absolute trash any way you look at it. It steals 3 boons and transfers 3 conditions on a long (fourty-five seconds) cooldown. It’s objectively worse in every way compared to pDisenchanter, and that’s even assuming the pDisenchanter gets killed almost immediately. Nobody uses the pDisenchanter because it’s really questionable in the current meta, and arcane thievery is even worse.

Additionally, you’re making the mistake of thinking that these classes rely on boons for everything, and that’s not true. Scrapper/Druid/tempest all function just fine without boons, and herald boons are not strippable due to passive upkeep.

The issue is that the opportunity cost of speccing heavily for boon strip is simply not worth it.

In your condie build, you can strip 7 boons every 32 seconds with null field. Ultimately, this doesn’t make a big difference in a fight. Null field can also be blocked and dodged, so many classes can just channel a block for its duration to ignore most of the effect. You’re also taking AT which I’ve already discussed as being bad for a lot of reasons, and that gets you 3 boons stripped every forty-five seconds.

To get that, you’re sacrificing portal. This means you now can’t allow your team to defend 2 points at once, you can’t back-cap safely, you can’t do portal plays to lord or far or creatures. While portal has a longer cooldown than null field, the impact on a match, not on a duel, is monumentally larger than null field during fights. You’re also missing out on another stronger defensive utility in place of AT. Mantra cleanse, pDisenchanter, decoy, precog…take your pick, they’re all better than AT.

Ultimately the main issue is that stripping boons simply isn’t that impactful to a fight. It just doesn’t matter all that much. If you wanted to remove boons with added punch, you go necro specced for boon corruption, not Mesmer. While Mesmer can remove boons fairly effectively, it just doesn’t make a difference in a match that you’re doing so.

Again, thx for the dialogue! I really do appreciate your input! Actually it does mean what I think it means: you attack the util. and have not provided valid or sound argumentation. People do rely on them or they wouldn’t be attempting to stack them so vigorously. Why, because they are free ways to buttress your character making them more survivable, so of course people are depending on them, and imho to much.

I run full wells until they nerfed alacrity, and liked Well of Precognition. WoP is only a shadow of its former self with a stun breaker, Aegis 3 seconds and only 1 second of Stability for a cool down of 45 seconds. So I fail to see how its better than 7 seconds of Null Field which strips boons, removes conditions, offers super speed and 2 seconds of resistance for a 32 second cool down; plus its range is 1200 not 900. Cast time on WoP is .75 versus .25 of Null.

Arcane Theivery .25 cast time, removes 3 conditions and strips 3 boons all in 1 key stroke. The cool down is long, but having the extra stripping/cleansing is huge in some fights where taking regen from someone and putting it on yourself could mean the difference between life and death. Again, its not about insta kill, but sustainability and being judicious with both Arcane Thievery and Null Field. (not to mention stacking Null inside of Time Warp (4 seconds of resistance, add boonstripping and condi removal, again, can be the difference between losing a team fight and taking a point).

For example, with a condi build I don’t always get to pick my match ups, and sometimes getting an ele to move means getting him down bellow the hp threshold so condis have chance of damaging him. Taking away regen, stability and protection becomes necessary so that you then run clones at him as much as you can. If he stays, Time Warp/Null Field slow him, remove more boons as many as you can – no mechanic is perfect in its application, sometimes you take what you can get. Again, being judicious is key.

As far as boon stripping being ineffective, I have had a different experience. For example, I have stripped necros of 12, 15 or more stacks of might and then regen forcing him to enter shroud a lot sooner than he desired. Added to that, I can handle more condis than the average Mesmer, I can sustain a much more meaningful fight. The reason, in part for that is taking something away from him and then adding it to myself. Necros who go corruption for boon stripping are taking their lives into their own hands, that is why I suspect they are not doing it in pvp, not enough reward for the risk factor.

Again, thx for taking time out, I am hoping that as a result of conversations like this, more people will think outside the bun on their builds!

Soothsayer.9206:

Fay.2357:

I…don’t think ad hominem means what you think it means.

In any event, not all builds are constructed around their utilities. I use blink, portal, and well of precognition. This is a standard mobility/defensive utility set that doesn’t bring anything particularly special to my build in particular, or any matchups I might face. Instead, it facilitates my role as part of a team; allowing me to move better, stay alive, keep others alive, and execute strategies that require portal to accomplish.

I’m not saying boon stripping is a gimmick, I’m simply saying that it’s not effective, and your value estimates of the utilities are waaaaaaay off. Arcane thievery is absolute trash any way you look at it. It steals 3 boons and transfers 3 conditions on a long (fourty-five seconds) cooldown. It’s objectively worse in every way compared to pDisenchanter, and that’s even assuming the pDisenchanter gets killed almost immediately. Nobody uses the pDisenchanter because it’s really questionable in the current meta, and arcane thievery is even worse.

Additionally, you’re making the mistake of thinking that these classes rely on boons for everything, and that’s not true. Scrapper/Druid/tempest all function just fine without boons, and herald boons are not strippable due to passive upkeep.

The issue is that the opportunity cost of speccing heavily for boon strip is simply not worth it.

In your condie build, you can strip 7 boons every 32 seconds with null field. Ultimately, this doesn’t make a big difference in a fight. Null field can also be blocked and dodged, so many classes can just channel a block for its duration to ignore most of the effect. You’re also taking AT which I’ve already discussed as being bad for a lot of reasons, and that gets you 3 boons stripped every forty-five seconds.

To get that, you’re sacrificing portal. This means you now can’t allow your team to defend 2 points at once, you can’t back-cap safely, you can’t do portal plays to lord or far or creatures. While portal has a longer cooldown than null field, the impact on a match, not on a duel, is monumentally larger than null field during fights. You’re also missing out on another stronger defensive utility in place of AT. Mantra cleanse, pDisenchanter, decoy, precog…take your pick, they’re all better than AT.

Ultimately the main issue is that stripping boons simply isn’t that impactful to a fight. It just doesn’t matter all that much. If you wanted to remove boons with added punch, you go necro specced for boon corruption, not Mesmer. While Mesmer can remove boons fairly effectively, it just doesn’t make a difference in a match that you’re doing so.

Again, thx for the dialogue! I really do appreciate your input! Actually it does mean what I think it means: you attack the util. and have not provided valid or sound argumentation. People do rely on them or they wouldn’t be attempting to stack them so vigorously. Why, because they are free ways to buttress your character making them more survivable, so of course people are depending on them, and imho to much.

I run full wells until they nerfed alacrity, and liked Well of Precognition. WoP is only a shadow of its former self with a stun breaker, Aegis 3 seconds and only 1 second of Stability for a cool down of 45 seconds. So I fail to see how its better than 7 seconds of Null Field which strips boons, removes conditions, offers super speed and 2 seconds of resistance for a 32 second cool down; plus its range is 1200 not 900. Cast time on WoP is .75 versus .25 of Null.

Arcane Theivery .25 cast time, removes 3 conditions and strips 3 boons all in 1 key stroke. The cool down is long, but having the extra stripping/cleansing is huge in some fights where taking regen from someone and putting it on yourself could mean the difference between life and death. Again, its not about insta kill, but sustainability and being judicious with both Arcane Thievery and Null Field. (not to mention stacking Null inside of Time Warp (4 seconds of resistance, add boonstripping and condi removal, again, can be the difference between losing a team fight and taking a point).

For example, with a condi build I don’t always get to pick my match ups, and sometimes getting an ele to move means getting him down bellow the hp threshold so condis have chance of damaging him. Taking away regen, stability and protection becomes necessary so that you then run clones at him as much as you can. If he stays, Time Warp/Null Field slow him, remove more boons as many as you can – no mechanic is perfect in its application, sometimes you take what you can get. Again, being judicious is key.

As far as boon stripping being ineffective, I have had a different experience. For example, I have stripped necros of 12, 15 or more stacks of might and then regen forcing him to enter shroud a lot sooner than he desired. Added to that, I can handle more condis than the average Mesmer, I can sustain a much more meaningful fight. The reason, in part for that is taking something away from him and then adding it to myself. Necros who go corruption for boon stripping are taking their lives into their own hands, that is why I suspect they are not doing it in pvp, not enough reward for the risk factor.
I average between 150 and 200 boons stripped (sometimes more) in a match.

Again, thx for taking time out, I am hoping that as a result of conversations like this, more people will think outside the bun on their builds!

Just had a match in Stronghold, sorry I didn’t capture ranks (all ruby – beached in ruby Gehenna for a some time now). But I am posting this to show what an average match looks like for boon stripping, condi removal etc. Thx again for all your feed back, been both enjoyable and enlightening!

no dueling
gg

Stand The Wall.6987:

no dueling
gg

Again, I do not think its best for you to judge these builds based on my game play. As I stated above there are many variables that could prejudice you either way; from completely stinky to way op. Posting videos of anyone’s game play accomplishes very little to nothing with respect to the thing(s) being considered(e.g. what if you are playing a noob, makes you look awesome but communicates nothing meaningful but possibly deceitful and misleading). Please, try these builds with an open mind, and then post feed back that is based upon 1st hand experiences rather than my meager game play. So please, don’t be just another close minded troll with nothing meaningful to contribute to what is meant to be a meaningful dialogue among Mesmers.