Guild Wars 2

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apharma.3741:

So answer my question which you selectively ignored. Give me one reason why it is acceptable that a thief can burst as high, if not more so, from stealth of an equal or greater length with a double stun (now basi venom is 2 charges base) and it is suddenly OP for mesmers to get a bit more stealth from a GM trait which doesn’t even compare to the amount of stealth a thief can stack for themselves and their party?

+1 million here to.
I’m actually curious to. Why? Any takers? Thieves?

apharma.3741:

So answer my question which you selectively ignored. Give me one reason why it is acceptable that a thief can burst as high, if not more so, from stealth of an equal or greater length with a double stun (now basi venom is 2 charges base) and it is suddenly OP for mesmers to get a bit more stealth from a GM trait which doesn’t even compare to the amount of stealth a thief can stack for themselves and their party?

As for obsession with thieves, it’s only because they are the nearest comparison. Trust me if engineers had non damage blasts/leaps and 5s shaved off that smoke bomb you’d see more QQ about stealth attack engineers.

I, too, am actually curious on what your answer for this is, TyPin.

Iavra.8510:

It’s not “a bit more” stealth and i dare say stealth is better on mesmer due to our illusions still doing damage while we are standing besides laughing.

Just a reminder tho. Illusion pops like balloons when hit. Even worst with Aoe’s. So unless you shatter them quick or something, you wont laugh that long.

Edit: Basically what the people said above
Edit2: I don’t think Mesmer is OP, it’s just a suggestion if they really want to nerf PU.

Sunflowers.1729:

If they still feel like the trait is too strong when combined with Confounding Suggestions, I’d like to suggest that it be reduced to 75% but with the 25% tacked on to the Torch trait instead .

& i do say this with in all respect.

Nope!

It’s fine & fun for the first time as is.

I feel that just because stealth + burst is broken on thieves, doesn’t mean mesmers should have to stoop to such low levels. I know we can stealth a lot now. I just haven’t used it yet – I feel it’s cheating.

Over the years, I have learned to play against thieves with lots of stealth. I know how unfair and annoying it is. I do not want to inflict that cheese on other people. I have standards.

bhagwad.4281:

I feel that just because stealth + burst is broken on thieves, doesn’t mean mesmers should have to stoop to such low levels. I know we can stealth a lot now. I just haven’t used it yet – I feel it’s cheating.

Over the years, I have learned to play against thieves with lots of stealth. I know how unfair and annoying it is. I do not want to inflict that cheese on other people. I have standards.

In other words, you’re a scrub.

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

bhagwad.4281:

I feel that just because stealth + burst is broken on thieves, doesn’t mean mesmers should have to stoop to such low levels. I know we can stealth a lot now. I just haven’t used it yet – I feel it’s cheating.

Over the years, I have learned to play against thieves with lots of stealth. I know how unfair and annoying it is. I do not want to inflict that cheese on other people. I have standards.

In other words, you’re a scrub.

Call me whatever you want. I’m not complaining, so what’s the problem?

apharma.3741:

So answer my question which you selectively ignored. Give me one reason why it is acceptable that a thief can burst as high, if not more so, from stealth of an equal or greater length with a double stun (now basi venom is 2 charges base) and it is suddenly OP for mesmers to get a bit more stealth from a GM trait which doesn’t even compare to the amount of stealth a thief can stack for themselves and their party?

First, thief stealth itself can be countered already. For instance, I have now some experience with lock down after the patch. I can deny any stealth from D/P thieves with my lock down build. I will use D/P as reference now, because this is what I meet with the new skill system. Didn’t meet a S/D for instance or even P/D condi.

Getting into stealth:
First there is the Pistol #5 into Hear Seeker. The moment I see the blind field they are stunned and often interrupted. Shadow Refuge -> I push them out. So their potential burst can be mitigated by denying them stealth. I admit this was a bit idealized and in the actual fight, if the thief is clever, he can try to abuse LoS to get his skills off. So this point is only partly valid. The only instant stealth they got which I can’t deny reliably deny is steal itself.

Executing the burst:
The other issue is, that thieves have less time to get their burst out. And they need to go melee to do it. Of course they have teleports such as Steal, Infiltrator Signet or Shadow Step. But those are, as well as our Decoy and Torch #4 also their defensive skills. The point is, as Thief, it is definitely harder to get your burst of and you risk yourself.

My actual point:
I am not against Mesmer doing high burst damage from stealth. I am against giving Mesmers an “eternity” of stealth to have time to set up their burst.

So you’ll probably repeat this you said from the other thread:

“Alright:

1. Thief backstab needs to be in melee range. Mesmer shatter can be melee to increase damage, but doesn’t need to be. It can come from any direction and a very long range even.

2. Thief can be pushed or pulled during stealth to prevent him from getting to you. Often this results in stealth wearing off (in my experience at least). Mesmer with PU has a good chance the pull will get blocked due to aegis.

3. Backstab always works in the same patterns. Mesmer burst from stealth has way more possibilities (like dodge baiting via phantasms), which only increase with additional stealth time.

4. Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

Now does this all only apply to PU builds only? No it doesn’t. But with PU builds it is made considerably more easy to execute to a point where I think it is too easy"

1. Pyro covered this well by saying IP is a 1.5-2x modifier for a shatter and so to do anything meaningful in terms of damage you should also be in melee range. Incidentally most thieves have a 21s CD 1200 range steal to get into range and hit on their terms.

2. Not a surprise attack if you know the thief is there and it’s worse than hitting thin air as you’re ideally wanting to CC a thief when you can see and thus have a more than pot luck chance of hitting them. Needless to say using blind CC is a bad idea. Also if you can’t see the thief coming, and don’t know they’re there because they’re in stealth…point is moot.

3. Backstab is generally used as a surprise thing, the strength of it comes from a person not knowing it’s coming. Mesmer burst has patterns just like thief and generally has a tell. If we’re talking about attacks from stealth, which we were, thief can afford much more time to wait in stealth without burning their defensive cool downs. Mesmer is burning them for more time.

4. You ever seen block block block block block block block block backstab? Backstab only reveals on damage and has no penalty for miss or block which causes a lot of problems and makes it a lot less skilful. Also why would anyone wait till stealth is about to end to attack, you attack at the opportune moment not wait till it passes and then attack because stealth isn’t up.

Besides attacking when stealth wears off means you are no longer attacking from stealth, you’re going to show just before you attack which means you give them time to dodge. This is very different to how backstabbing works and is just a bad way of playing. Eat the reveal for the burst, you don’t wait it out and risk someone +1 the fight. Pyro also makes other good points about it making you predictable as they will then just count to 6 and dodge. We all know how to do that, just double what you do for Alpha in CoE.

@apharma:
Sorry I addressed Fay’s answer already in the other thread. Not going to continue the discussion in 2 threads. I hope you understand. I would be glad if we could move the discussion in the other thread. If my answer to Fay didn’t address what you wrote here (I am getting a bit exhausted from the forum warrioring^^) then please respond there, if you would be so kind.

Not to mention Anet is making it clear that they want several classes to have more access to reveal. They also outright said that a mesmer’s main defense should be not getting hit in the first place. That’s why we can spec for so many useful and powerful things, because our primary defense is preventing or avoiding damage altogether. Stealths ties right into both of those. Another thing to note is that all the GM traits in Chaos are fairly good, just in their own situations, PU happens to be good in small scale fights that aren’t Spvp.

TyPin.9860:

First, thief stealth itself can be countered already. For instance, I have now some experience with lock down after the patch. I can deny any stealth from D/P thieves with my lock down build. I will use D/P as reference now, because this is what I meet with the new skill system. Didn’t meet a S/D for instance or even P/D condi.

Getting into stealth:
First there is the Pistol #5 into Hear Seeker. The moment I see the blind field they are stunned and often interrupted. Shadow Refuge -> I push them out. So their potential burst can be mitigated by denying them stealth. I admit this was a bit idealized and in the actual fight, if the thief is clever, he can try to abuse LoS to get his skills off. So this point is only partly valid. The only instant stealth they got which I can’t deny reliably deny is steal itself.

Executing the burst:
The other issue is, that thieves have less time to get their burst out. And they need to go melee to do it. Of course they have teleports such as Steal, Infiltrator Signet or Shadow Step. But those are, as well as our Decoy and Torch #4 also their defensive skills. The point is, as Thief, it is definitely harder to get your burst of and you risk yourself.

My actual point:
I am not against Mesmer doing high burst damage from stealth. I am against giving Mesmers an “eternity” of stealth to have time to set up their burst.

Getting into stealth. No good burst or surprise came from anyone that went into stealth in front of you. More often than not they will stealth before you see them so they get you by surprise, whatever class that is. Most decent thieves know people try to knock them out of SR, that’s why when they use it (usually as escape) they save a dodge. You generally don’t see competent thieves getting knocked out of it. BP+HS is easily interrupted also, again most competent thieves know this and will try to do it out of your range or on top of you to blind and make you miss.

Mesmers on the other hand have to use torch 4 then it’s down to defensive utilities to stay in stealth. Do I really need to point out how bad of an idea it is to do that? Also mimic into decoy is not a great idea. I’d rather use it for a game changer utility.

Execution.
Thief is not harder to get your burst of, not by a long chalk. If you miss, hey keep trying. If you were blocked, repeat till that thing lands. Mesmer if they miss, well tough, you just wasted your burst, wait 5-10s depending on what you missed with. Additionally with a Mesmer a clone or phantasm usually appears next to you before the burst, how much more warning do you need? Thieves generally trait steal to a 21s cool down because it’s so useful for engage and don’t waste shadow step for engage. They also have skill 3 which can be cancelled while teleporting and go into backstab.

Your actual point.
Mesmers to spend “an eternity” in stealth would sacrifice all their utility slots and defences for what? A one trick pony that will get destroyed by any zero spec. It’s right up there with the one shot thief that blows all its signets for 20might and back stabs for insane damage. Then dies as they have no disengage.

No competent player or sane person would ever do that. Mesmers are not spending an eternity in stealth, they are spending precisely 16s more if they took every single stealth utility (not including desperate decoy as no control) and would be giving up a lot for something which is not needed.

Most mesmers will take decoy, torch and mass invis for a whole 11s more stealth with PU. Maybe veil for a Zerg but given it would be at the discretion of the commander I’m not sure we can count it.

mesmer asking for mesmer nerf, only in mesmer forum
i don’t see any thief asking for their 10k heart seeker nerf or any other class

Typin you may want to move the other conversation here as this thread is specifically about PU and that one is less so.

@apharma:
Maybe you are right. Here’s how it went:

TyPin.9860:

Caelus.7139:

TyPin.9860:

snap

Do tell me how this is any different than a thief’s backstab out of nowhere mechanic.

Alright:

• Thief backstab needs to be in melee range. Mesmer shatter can be melee to increase damage, but doesn’t need to be. It can come from any direction and a very long range even.
• Thief can be pushed or pulled during stealth to prevent him from getting to you. Often this results in stealth wearing off (in my experience at least). Mesmer with PU has a good chance the pull will get blocked due to aegis.
• Backstab always works in the same patterns. Mesmer burst from stealth has way more possibilities (like dodge baiting via phantasms), which only increase with additional stealth time.
• Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

Now does this all only apply to PU builds only? No it doesn’t. But with PU builds it is made considerably more easy to execute to a point where I think it is too easy.

Fay.2357:

@Typin
Allow me to elaborate on your original points a bit.

1.
You claim mesmers can do shatter burst at long range. This is incredibly and intentionally misleading. In a standard quick burst, IP is between a 1.5x and 2x modifier for the total shatter damage. Bursting without IP is not bursting at all.

Additionally, attempting to use mirror blade from long range is usually a losing proposition as it is easy to see and dodge. On top of that, a significant amount of burst comes from the rapid bouncing of mirror blade that is only achievable at point blank range.

Claiming you can shatter burst at range is nothing but absurd nonsense.

2.
Burning cooldowns to attempt cc on a stealthed thief is a best lucky, and at worst capable of losing the fight for you. You can try to predict the location of the thief, but blindly throwing out cc in the hopes that it’ll hit the thief is not a tactic that will enjoy much success against a skilled player.

3.
Backstab always works in the same patterns? That’s absurd nonsense. Backstab is an attack from stealth. There is no tell, and the thief can choose when to use it.

You can attempt to predict when it comes, and you can even get quite good at predicting it. Unfortunately, the thief has the ultimate timing advantage, even now. CnD thieves can restealth on clones with little risk, and d/p thieves can permanently restealth through the combo.

A patient thief will land the backstab, because eventually you’ll run out of active defenses to try and prevent it.

4.
The point made by Caelus here is quite accurate: backstab only reveals if it hits. If it hits, you’re already on the back foot in the fight and need to take some sort of immediate defensive measures.

Additionally, your argument is inherently flawed. If the Mesmer waits until stealth wears off to attack, that means 2 things. First is that it gives the other person a chance to react to the burst. Second is that it makes your burst extremely predictable. By limiting when you attack, it allows your opponents to know when you’re trying to burst simply by the duration of your stealth skills.

A good Mesmer bursts unpredictably, and that means eating a bit of revealed when you do.

Now, I invite you to dismiss my arguments as ‘emotional garbage’, but I think you’ll find that I make a rather compelling logical case that is difficult to write off without making yourself look extremely foolish.

TyPin.9860:

@Fay:
I agree my reaction was a bit over the top. But to your points (which are actually articulated):

1. I agree that shatter from long range is less powerful than melee range. That does not change the fact that you can do it. And still you can do considerable damage. At least that was my experience with the new trait system. I did not do the math on it. And doing a shatter from a save distance should be less powerful. I am not intentionally misleading and I am a bit offended that you claim so. But nonetheless, let’s move on.
2. Than I was lucky more than I deserved? Also stealth tracking with Mirror Blade and using GS #5 is a thing. Although it’s situational and requires skill. Point is, it is possible. Less so with a Mesmer, if she gained Aegis from PU (not sure of Mirror blade still tracks, if it got blocked by Aegis though). And it’s not only Mesmers fighting thieves. For warriors for instance, it is considerable easier to do Hammer burst to CC the thief in stealth if he doesn’t dodge it.
3. Thing is Backstab still needs to be closer to the target than any Mesmer burst. Including IP-Shatter and Mirror Blade. For a lack of a better word, I used the word “pattern”. The Thief is still at higher risk going so close and becomes better predictable than a Mesmer. You have more freedom of approach with a shatter burst, than with a Backstab. Additionally you can shatter as Mesmer literally when passing by. That’s very different for a Thief backstab. But I realize that this is actual the same point as #1.
4. The Mesmer can wait, he doesn’t have to. Phantasms still do damage during this time. It wouldn’t make sense to use this tactic all the time. You can alternate, when to do your burst. Point is, you can do the same damage with or without stealth, while Thief relies on getting his attack off while still in stealth. This additional freedom, that is offered to Mesmers, is what makes Thief burst and Mesmer burst so different. And giving Mesmer 6s instead of 4s stealth makes it so very easy for Mesmers to get their burst out.

TyPin.9860:

apharma.3741:

So answer my question which you selectively ignored. Give me one reason why it is acceptable that a thief can burst as high, if not more so, from stealth of an equal or greater length with a double stun (now basi venom is 2 charges base) and it is suddenly OP for mesmers to get a bit more stealth from a GM trait which doesn’t even compare to the amount of stealth a thief can stack for themselves and their party?

First, thief stealth itself can be countered already. For instance, I have now some experience with lock down after the patch. I can deny any stealth from D/P thieves with my lock down build. I will use D/P as reference now, because this is what I meet with the new skill system. Didn’t meet a S/D for instance or even P/D condi.

Getting into stealth:
First there is the Pistol #5 into Hear Seeker. The moment I see the blind field they are stunned and often interrupted. Shadow Refuge -> I push them out. So their potential burst can be mitigated by denying them stealth. I admit this was a bit idealized and in the actual fight, if the thief is clever, he can try to abuse LoS to get his skills off. So this point is only partly valid. The only instant stealth they got which I can’t deny reliably deny is steal itself.

Executing the burst:
The other issue is, that thieves have less time to get their burst out. And they need to go melee to do it. Of course they have teleports such as Steal, Infiltrator Signet or Shadow Step. But those are, as well as our Decoy and Torch #4 also their defensive skills. The point is, as Thief, it is definitely harder to get your burst of and you risk yourself.

My actual point:
I am not against Mesmer doing high burst damage from stealth. I am against giving Mesmers an “eternity” of stealth to have time to set up their burst.

Even if PU does grant an “eternity” of stealth. The burst will not hit as hard as it would from say a 6/6/0/0/6 full on shatter mes. Which btw doesn’t take PU. If we are talking WvW then who cares. WvW has never nor will ever be balanced.

jportell.2197:

Even if PU does grant an “eternity” of stealth. The burst will not hit as hard as it would from say a 6/6/0/0/6 full on shatter mes. Which btw doesn’t take PU. If we are talking WvW then who cares. WvW has never nor will ever be balanced.

Yeah, I don’t care for WvW regarding this topic. People can have their 5000 years stealth builds, if they want it there^^

Necrotize.2974:

They also outright said that a mesmer’s main defense should be not getting hit in the first place.

THIS. Avoidance and subterfuge IS our defense. Stealth ties directly into that. We should’ve had this amount of stealth all along, it makes total sense for Mesmers, both thematically and mechanically.

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Necrotize.2974:

They also outright said that a mesmer’s main defense should be not getting hit in the first place.

THIS. Avoidance and subterfuge IS our defense. Stealth ties directly into that. We should’ve had this amount of stealth all along, it makes total sense for Mesmers, both thematically and mechanically.

Hmmph, I don’t know. Stealth is just such a cheesy mechanic. Do you really be want to be so closely associated with it?

bhagwad.4281:

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Necrotize.2974:

They also outright said that a mesmer’s main defense should be not getting hit in the first place.

THIS. Avoidance and subterfuge IS our defense. Stealth ties directly into that. We should’ve had this amount of stealth all along, it makes total sense for Mesmers, both thematically and mechanically.

Hmmph, I don’t know. Stealth is just such a cheesy mechanic. Do you really be want to be so closely associated with it?

Stealth is cheesy to people who don’t like dealing with it, even though there are several ways. Saying stealth is cheese is basically like admitting this mechanic is annoying so I’d rather it be nerfed into the ground than be viable. I don’t personally play much PU but I rarely have much trouble fighting other stealth heavy players. In Spvp, long duration stealth is a big no-no, and the game isn’t really balanced around 1v1 roaming in WvW anyway. So nerfing stealth because its annoying in something that isn’t even really a supported game mode seems a little stupid.

Necrotize.2974:

bhagwad.4281:

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Necrotize.2974:

They also outright said that a mesmer’s main defense should be not getting hit in the first place.

THIS. Avoidance and subterfuge IS our defense. Stealth ties directly into that. We should’ve had this amount of stealth all along, it makes total sense for Mesmers, both thematically and mechanically.

Hmmph, I don’t know. Stealth is just such a cheesy mechanic. Do you really be want to be so closely associated with it?

Stealth is cheesy to people who don’t like dealing with it, even though there are several ways. Saying stealth is cheese is basically like admitting this mechanic is annoying so I’d rather it be nerfed into the ground than be viable. I don’t personally play much PU but I rarely have much trouble fighting other stealth heavy players. In Spvp, long duration stealth is a big no-no, and the game isn’t really balanced around 1v1 roaming in WvW anyway. So nerfing stealth because its annoying in something that isn’t even really a supported game mode seems a little stupid.

I’ve gotten used to dealing with stealth with thieves. However, just because we do that, doesn’t mean that stealth isn’t cheese. Counterplay should not be based on guesswork. As a mesmer, I can handle thieves – but do I want to become like one? No…

I disagree with the OP, PU Mes are dying in SPvP at the same rate as they were before. Given the buffs to the other classes I’ve found the PU x2 stealth time helps to balance things out a bit. There is a lot of reveal in game, people tend to use stealth like blink to try and get out of a sticky situation. I’ve not heard any complaints about the new PU except here in the Mes forum. Which is quite telling.

bhagwad.4281:

Necrotize.2974:

bhagwad.4281:

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Necrotize.2974:

They also outright said that a mesmer’s main defense should be not getting hit in the first place.

THIS. Avoidance and subterfuge IS our defense. Stealth ties directly into that. We should’ve had this amount of stealth all along, it makes total sense for Mesmers, both thematically and mechanically.

Hmmph, I don’t know. Stealth is just such a cheesy mechanic. Do you really be want to be so closely associated with it?

Stealth is cheesy to people who don’t like dealing with it, even though there are several ways. Saying stealth is cheese is basically like admitting this mechanic is annoying so I’d rather it be nerfed into the ground than be viable. I don’t personally play much PU but I rarely have much trouble fighting other stealth heavy players. In Spvp, long duration stealth is a big no-no, and the game isn’t really balanced around 1v1 roaming in WvW anyway. So nerfing stealth because its annoying in something that isn’t even really a supported game mode seems a little stupid.

I’ve gotten used to dealing with stealth with thieves. However, just because we do that, doesn’t mean that stealth isn’t cheese. Counterplay should not be based on guesswork. As a mesmer, I can handle thieves – but do I want to become like one? No…

That’s also why several classes are getting good uptime on reveal. I’d also guess that’s why PU got Might and Swiftness added to the list of boons some time back, they want it to be worthwhile for any type of mesmer, not just condi clone death tank whatever. They want certain things to be integral to mesmers, be it shatters, slows, quickness, alacrity, or yes, even stealth. No ones forcing you to pick up PU, in fact the Chaos line GM trait pick is actually a pretty tough one, which IMO, is balancing done right. There shouldn’t be one GM trait that just blows all the others out of the water, but they all should be somewhat build defining. This encourages build diversity, instead of just a list of good traits you should always take vs bad traits you should never take.

And best told Award going to Necrotize…

Chaos line is soo much bad if it come to take choices.. every trait is good, and its pain to pass one over other… All Traits should works like this. You have 3 options, and you decide what to pick, not when you have choice bad vs good. ad left with only 1 option. Almost all mesmer GM are now like real Grand Master and are worth picking.

For the love of Lyssa, no more mesmer nerfs, PLEASE!

The main complaint I hear with PU is that it allows mesmers to 100-0 without any counterplay and not even knowing that a mesmer was around due to the long duration stealth.

Does anyone have any video of this? I’d like to see it in action.

@Baylock

I think I was that “Beginner” Mesmer. The real problem of PU is not the long duration.

The issue is that you can stealth your entire team for 10 seconds, allowing a stealth nuke.

The way you were playing it was to stealth 2 or 3 players who would then jump on 1, (me) and yes, with multiple players bursting from stealth, you can 100-0 someone before they can even press a button.

If the extra duration did not affect others on Mass Invisibility, I’d see nothing wrong with this build.

Shadow Refuge could do the same thing so nothing new in the game.

True enough, MI has a much larger radius.

@Landhere

I agree, the tendency to way over nerf Mesmer is all too evident.

Ithilwen.1529:

@Landhere

I agree, the tendency to way over nerf Mesmer is all too evident.

Our support combo just got nerfed so goodbye to that.

Why do I even play this game? Bleh

Menaka.5092:

TyPin.9860:

Thief backstab needs to be in melee range

thieves have a handful of gap closers and teleports on 0 cooldown

The discussion developed from Backstab. So we are talking about D/P or D/D Thieves. To say Thieves have several teleports on 0 cooldown is kinda misleading, because they are still connected with costs. Also 0 CD teleports of D/D or D/P is only on Longbow and it is actually quite expensive. I am not saying this is unfair. Still, the Thief needs to be in Melee range and thus risks to be hit by PAoE.

TyPin.9860:

Mesmer shatter can be melee to increase damage, but doesn’t need to be. It can come from any direction and a very long range even.

dodging mirror blade from more than 300 range can be done while sleeping and the only combo from stealth that can give a similar damage to backstab is mirror blade + shatter from melee range

Still, Mesmer IP shatter has bigger range than Thief backstab. Thief backstab has 130 range, Mesmer has 240. Thus in some circumstances Mesmer is a bit safer from PAoE (I admit, those are actually rare) but also can hit targets in a bigger area.

TyPin.9860:

Backstab always works in the same patterns. Mesmer burst from stealth has way more possibilities (like dodge baiting via phantasms), which only increase with additional stealth time.

you are burning your cooldowns to bait the dodges, seems fair to me?

To me too, never said it was unfair.

TyPin.9860:

Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

thieves can also stun you with that same backstab, blind you istantly after that, teleport away and stealth again

And mesmer can do similar things. Not sure what your point is here.

Sunflowers.1729:

TyPin.9860:

Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

Actually, this only works with Decoy and Mass Invis. If your Torch invisibility ends next to an enemy, the burn will reveal you. Just go to sPvP, hit a golem, use The Prestige, and wait for 3/6 seconds to test this.

I am aware of that. Never claimed otherwise.

[…]

And you know very well why Thief has reveal, it’s because they have no CDs and that is the only mechanic stopping them going Backstab>CnD>Backstab>CnD.etc. Mesmer stealth has cooldowns so you can’t do that continuously.

Edit: Before someone points out that Initiative is a limiting factor, I mean something like Backstab>CnD>wait for initiative>repeat. Obviously I can’t test if this is possible to sustain indefinitely but you sure can do it several times in a row.

Fay.2357:

Enough times. Reveal wasn’t always a thing. It was implemented after thieves did just that.

Never said they should not be revealed. I only wanted to show that Mesmer shatters (mind you there are not only shatters that do primarily damage) have a bigger variability in execution and effect. Giving Mesmer such a long duration stealth allows her too much freedom in executing and preparing them imo.

People for example say: “You see illusions coming up, so a shatter will come soon”, or “Shatter have to be set up”. This is all good and fine. But 6s of stealth can be a long time. The Illusions still apply conditions, the Phantasms still deal damage. The Mesmer’s foe still is pressured, while he waits for some of the shatter tells, which he dodges and the shatter then comes afterwards.

Granted, such kind of mind game and tricking the opponent is well played and not that easy to do. But 2s of extra stealth, (comparing old and new PU from Decoy for instance) make it considerably more easy. Too easy imo.

On the other hand (to go against many points I brought up before^^): I skimmed through the Thief forum and seemingly they think PU shatter can be dealt easily with by using longbow. So there is at least one profession that isn’t actually worried. And the concept they apply with Shortbow could easily be adopted by other professions with any form of AoE skills.

TyPin.9860:

Menaka.5092:

TyPin.9860:

Thief backstab needs to be in melee range

thieves have a handful of gap closers and teleports on 0 cooldown

The discussion developed from Backstab. So we are talking about D/P or D/D Thieves. To say Thieves have several teleports on 0 cooldown is kinda misleading, because they are still connected with costs. Also 0 CD teleports of D/D or D/P is only on Longbow and it is actually quite expensive. I am not saying this is unfair. Still, the Thief needs to be in Melee range and thus risks to be hit by PAoE.

TyPin.9860:

Mesmer shatter can be melee to increase damage, but doesn’t need to be. It can come from any direction and a very long range even.

dodging mirror blade from more than 300 range can be done while sleeping and the only combo from stealth that can give a similar damage to backstab is mirror blade + shatter from melee range

Still, Mesmer IP shatter has bigger range than Thief backstab. Thief backstab has 130 range, Mesmer has 240. Thus in some circumstances Mesmer is a bit safer from PAoE (I admit, those are actually rare) but also can hit targets in a bigger area.

TyPin.9860:

Backstab always works in the same patterns. Mesmer burst from stealth has way more possibilities (like dodge baiting via phantasms), which only increase with additional stealth time.

you are burning your cooldowns to bait the dodges, seems fair to me?

To me too, never said it was unfair.

TyPin.9860:

Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

thieves can also stun you with that same backstab, blind you istantly after that, teleport away and stealth again

And mesmer can do similar things. Not sure what your point is here.

Sunflowers.1729:

TyPin.9860:

Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

Actually, this only works with Decoy and Mass Invis. If your Torch invisibility ends next to an enemy, the burn will reveal you. Just go to sPvP, hit a golem, use The Prestige, and wait for 3/6 seconds to test this.

I am aware of that. Never claimed otherwise.

[…]

And you know very well why Thief has reveal, it’s because they have no CDs and that is the only mechanic stopping them going Backstab>CnD>Backstab>CnD.etc. Mesmer stealth has cooldowns so you can’t do that continuously.

Edit: Before someone points out that Initiative is a limiting factor, I mean something like Backstab>CnD>wait for initiative>repeat. Obviously I can’t test if this is possible to sustain indefinitely but you sure can do it several times in a row.

Fay.2357:

Enough times. Reveal wasn’t always a thing. It was implemented after thieves did just that.

Never said they should not be revealed. I only wanted to show that Mesmer shatters (mind you there are not only shatters that do primarily damage) have a bigger variability in execution and effect. Giving Mesmer such a long duration stealth allows her too much freedom in executing and preparing them imo.

People for example say: “You see illusions coming up, so a shatter will come soon”, or “Shatter have to be set up”. This is all good and fine. But 6s of stealth can be a long time. The Illusions still apply conditions, the Phantasms still deal damage. The Mesmer’s foe still is pressured, while he waits for some of the shatter tells, which he dodges and the shatter then comes afterwards.

Granted, such kind of mind game and tricking the opponent is well played and not that easy to do. But 2s of extra stealth, (comparing old and new PU from Decoy for instance) make it considerably more easy. Too easy imo.

On the other hand (to go against many points I brought up before^^): I skimmed through the Thief forum and seemingly they think PU shatter can be dealt easily with by using longbow. So there is at least one profession that isn’t actually worried. And the concept they apply with Shortbow could easily be adopted by other professions with any form of AoE skills.

Thief don’t use longbow….

I could brush this off if you said it once (mistake) but you said it multiple times so it means you’re ignorant on the subject.

I suggest you play other classes.

TyPin.9860:

Menaka.5092:

TyPin.9860:

Thief backstab needs to be in melee range

thieves have a handful of gap closers and teleports on 0 cooldown

The discussion developed from Backstab. So we are talking about D/P or D/D Thieves. To say Thieves have several teleports on 0 cooldown is kinda misleading, because they are still connected with costs. Also 0 CD teleports of D/D or D/P is only on Longbow and it is actually quite expensive. I am not saying this is unfair. Still, the Thief needs to be in Melee range and thus risks to be hit by PAoE.

^He also said D/P has no 0 CD gap closer. Any Thief player will know that not only is D/P #3 (Shadow Shot) a 900 range teleport for 4 init, you can press 3>1 and still land the Backstab.

I mostly played Thief before the patch and seriously, landing the Backstab is not particularly difficult. You can hit them from the side, and it still applies the bonus damage. The Shadow Shot combo works most of the time (even if its projectile is reflected, they are teleported to you) although with steal/shadowstep/infiltrator’s signet you don’t even need to use it that much. Aegis is even more of a joke as you can hit them once and still remain in stealth. And if it fails, just try again! You can stealth as many times as you want with D/P.

I still think it’s cheesy and that neither class should be able to spike someone down from stealth instantly, but it’s really not true that Thieves can’t do it.

Gabriell.4856:

Thief don’t use longbow….

I could brush this off if you said it once (mistake) but you said it multiple times so it means you’re ignorant on the subject.

I suggest you play other classes.

Lol. Who cares if it’s long or short bow. I am sorry to have offended you by mixing up two words (at least I was consistent in doing so^^). I’ll try not to hurt you again by mixing up two words.

Also your conclusion is rather funny. Interesting thought processes there.

@Sunflowers:
Sry, I forgot that one^^ Still it isn’t free.

However, as I wrote, the issue isn’t, that they have gap closers, the issue is that they need to be in close range and expose themselves to PAoE in addition the area they hit is considerably smaller. I agree though that the Mesmer stealth shatter doesn’t have several tries and additionally uses several cool downs to execute. On the other hand Mesmers can still deal damage via phantasms, while the Mesmer herself stays hidden.

But all of that doesn’t actually matter, and I forgot why we went there anyway. The problem isn’t PU Mesmers can shatter from stealth. The problem imo is that the time frame in which they can set up their shatter is too long.

EDIT:

I still think it’s cheesy and that neither class should be able to spike someone down from stealth instantly, but it’s really not true that Thieves can’t do it.

Nobody claimed they couldn’t.

Then change the mechanic so you can’t easily shatter combo from stealth, not reduce the duration or boons because it can be used defensively too. Your suggestion of changing it back to +1 second will reduce the potential for a stealth burst but also hurt its defensive uses.

(edit: like for example casting a phantasm takes you out of stealth, not actually that you can’t use Mind Wrack when invisible)

Thing is, I think also for defense it is too strong. Imo the trait needs a straight out nerf. But well, that’s just me it seems.

But I actually find the idea with phantasms causing reveal kinda interesting… I’ll have to contemplate that a bit more though.

look ele has diamond skin mesmer has PU so what eles are defending diamond skin that they have to get whole trait line to get it we have the same with PU yeah they can nerf it but for god sake start nerfing others too…..

and you know you can nerf everything back to pre patch state and we have those useless traits again

TyPin.9860:

But well, that’s just me it seems.

It’s not just you. Any sane player believes PU is in absolute need of HEAVY shaves – both mesmers and all other players.
It’s just that coming here to QQ is pretty much useless because of all the insane amount of trash players trying to defend a build with which they have started to win some 1v1s with and, thus, are enjoying the sensation of feeling like a god.

So yeah, the devs are probably aware of this so a nerf is already in the air. Just wait for a few more days. This is not the only thing that needs to be shaved though.

Please close the topic it was ment to be about pu only

Zord.6130:

TyPin.9860:

But well, that’s just me it seems.

It’s not just you. Any sane player believes PU is in absolute need of HEAVY shaves – both mesmers and all other players.
It’s just that coming here to QQ is pretty much useless because of all the insane amount of trash players trying to defend a build with which they have started to win some 1v1s with and, thus, are enjoying the sensation of feeling like a god.

So yeah, the devs are probably aware of this so a nerf is already in the air. Just wait for a few more days. This is not the only thing that needs to be shaved though.

God help us if mesmers start winning some 1v1’s, that should never be allowed and must obviously be nerfed ASAP.

Kiss my PU @ss to all thief that made our miserable mesmer life miserable. Long libe Robert GEE hic! parrrty!

Zord.6130:

TyPin.9860:

But well, that’s just me it seems.

It’s not just you. Any sane player believes PU is in absolute need of HEAVY shaves – both mesmers and all other players.
It’s just that coming here to QQ is pretty much useless because of all the insane amount of trash players trying to defend a build with which they have started to win some 1v1s with and, thus, are enjoying the sensation of feeling like a god.

So yeah, the devs are probably aware of this so a nerf is already in the air. Just wait for a few more days. This is not the only thing that needs to be shaved though.

Oh great enlightened one who can read the minds of all sane players, I beseech you, impart your wisdom upon us and show us the way that it is OP.

Almost no-one took PU after it was nerfed, only those clone death condi builds which have now been removed. Now it’s at least viable as a defensive GM trait in a defensive (mostly) and condition line. However it does compete with a lot of other great trait lines for survivability, inspiration for one and illusions has a lot of much better traits for power players.

Only condi players I can see picking up PU and even then condi Mesmer got gutted badly and I fear just about everything else but extra stealth Mesmer.

PU is great to restart fight, and runoff, its same as thief. I lately run off with CI instad PU, belive me CI>PU. If i interupt target, upon on daze i will also immo target for 2s, so even if they use CC break they cant move at all and die in 2s.

PU is not problem, deal with it. Nerfing will change nothink, and only gimb “more ways to play”

Only broken things is Might stack on Mesmer, and how they easy can get 25.
- its like 8s of Auto attack on Gs to get 25 might(this i prefer than Power Lock)
- CI/Chaotic need interrupt like 5 skills to get 25 might one good chaos storm, and next interrupts with pistol/Mantra will deal AoEs interrupts for 6k
-Same go for shatter, not traited with no might/vuln its hit 4x 2 up to 3k (so its 12k at max, it was the same before patch) And with trat buff its can go over even 17k overall this got changed and deal 4k more dmg than pre-patch.

Same go for Stun on daze.. Belive me is far more better to take 15% more dmg on Phantoms, Bers with 30% can deal insaine dmg with 25 might and 30% more dmg.

inb4 ppl Start use Duel/Dom/Inspiration with phantom dmg and Pahntom Def on evade/block, and the new QQ train will come.

Even assuming “nobody really cares for WvW balance” as some have said, there is one thing which differs high stealth mesmer from a high stealth thief. Namely, Portal.

It is very possible for a mesmer to go really deeply into stealth with Prismatic Understanding now to the point you can easily hide in Hills inner or Bay inner (there are spots to portal from outside to inner) – and because of vast space of WvW and the nature of the PUG zerg which took the keep you will never be found. Thus, zerg leaves and you can easily reflip the keep porting first group of 3-5 people from outside. Earlier on, it was immensely rewarding if you could pull it off (and very random; enemies had a chance to find you). Now it might be slightly too easy.

Not to mention that if you prefer to hide in outer you will never be found again, especially if you jump through portals while evading enemies (of course, then you need a slightly stronger group or a diversion to take that keep).

Add to this what was written before – MassInvis having such a long duration means you cannot predict when the burst comes. Usually in group roaming if enemy group use MI, the proper response was to cast our own MI, so they leave the stealth first and we have an advantage. Not anymore.

This is not Shadow Refuge where you have to group in one spot and enemies can AoE / use pulls and pushes. MI can come at any moment and with the use of a teamspeak it is INCREDIBLY easy to regroup and coordinate a spike. 10 seconds of stealth is eternity, and with 2 PU mesmers with MI you can stack it to 15-20 seconds without Revealed easily (properly timing MI).

I mean, look at this case: 3 PU mesmers (traited in manipulations), 2 eles, 4 ice bows, all berserker == gg. If you want to go to extreme, 5 PU mesmers (MI hits 10 people), 5 eles with ice bows ;p. Or take a single banner warrior to res everyone who fall to Retaliation ;-).

I do not see a counter to what I wrote above from a PUG zerg or a PUG commander.

Honorable mention: portals to displace invisible people out of harms way.
Honorable mention 2: Aegis from PU which makes pulling, pushing and CCing invisible people a tad difficult.