Guild Wars 2

Fay.2357:

cyyrix.6105:

Don’t even know where to start. Never said it was weak to anything else, never said condi doesn’t help you survive. Nope, not contradicting myself. I feel dumber for even acknowledging your post.

disgunbegud

Right, lets see here…

cyyrix.6105:

Don’t even know where to start.

That’s ok, I’ve got a few ideas.

cyyrix.6105:

Never said it was weak to anything else

INSTANT FACT CHECK

cyyrix.6105:

Sure a different build helps with thieves, but it makes you weaker against other stuff.

Oopsie.

cyyrix.6105:

never said condi doesn’t help you survive.

INSTANT FACT CHECK

cyyrix.6105:

Changing to a build that counters a thief does not help you survive the match

Oopsie.

cyyrix.6105:

Nope, not contradicting myself.

I’ll let everyone else figure this one out for themselves.

This is what I was saying, how can he not see it???

StickerHappy.8052:

This is what I was saying, how can he not see it???

Yep, I just like laying things out nice and clear. I’m actually looking forward to seeing the backpedaling that’s about to occur.

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

This is what I was saying, how can he not see it???

Yep, I just like laying things out nice and clear. I’m actually looking forward to seeing the backpedaling that’s about to occur.

Ooopsie. Haha. Iloveyou pyro!

Hellooooo where are you cyyrix??

apharma.3741:

Zenith.7301:

Thief with runes of vampirism and new trait update that allows them to take up most of shadow arts without the damage loss that they would have seen right now is just going to be dumb.

Expect the nerf pleas to get a lot louder.

Most people in spvp are playing against thieves who right now can’t afford shadow arts, but they will afford it come the trait revamp, and it helps them far more than the mesmer changes help the mesmer in this particular match up.

Currently most thieves take SA for the condi removal, granted they can’t afford the rest and keep low cool down steal (though skipping sleight of hand only increases the cool down by 6.5s) or give up other things.

With the trait changes they can’t just pick up that one trait. So now they’re going to have to pick the traits that make stealth so powerful. I mean it’s one of the only dependable condition removals they have. I know about shadow step but it is a very long cool down just for a cleanse, especially as it’s one of if not the only stun break they use.

Also we’re going to see mug, panic strikes and executioner all in the same line, all available at the same time, well under current previews.

Yeah, my problem with that condi removal trait it’s a stealth bug. It’s supposed to remove a condi for every 3 seconds in stealth, but right now it also removes a condition upon stealth application. And now they’re gonna be able to pick up the rest of SA, which is immensely powerful.

Thieves get pretty much everything at a cheaper opportunity cost. Lower cooldowns, more condensed effects and traits.

Their traitlines are rather cleaned up, their minors are all particularly strong, and their initiative mechanic is a boon without real drawbacks.

You cannot say the same of many classes. Including the mesmer.

Zenith.7301:

apharma.3741:

Zenith.7301:

Thief with runes of vampirism and new trait update that allows them to take up most of shadow arts without the damage loss that they would have seen right now is just going to be dumb.

Expect the nerf pleas to get a lot louder.

Most people in spvp are playing against thieves who right now can’t afford shadow arts, but they will afford it come the trait revamp, and it helps them far more than the mesmer changes help the mesmer in this particular match up.

Currently most thieves take SA for the condi removal, granted they can’t afford the rest and keep low cool down steal (though skipping sleight of hand only increases the cool down by 6.5s) or give up other things.

With the trait changes they can’t just pick up that one trait. So now they’re going to have to pick the traits that make stealth so powerful. I mean it’s one of the only dependable condition removals they have. I know about shadow step but it is a very long cool down just for a cleanse, especially as it’s one of if not the only stun break they use.

Also we’re going to see mug, panic strikes and executioner all in the same line, all available at the same time, well under current previews.

Yeah, my problem with that condi removal trait it’s a stealth bug. It’s supposed to remove a condi for every 3 seconds in stealth, but right now it also removes a condition upon stealth application. And now they’re gonna be able to pick up the rest of SA, which is immensely powerful.

Thieves get pretty much everything at a cheaper opportunity cost. Lower cooldowns, more condensed effects and traits.

Their traitlines are rather cleaned up, their minors are all particularly strong, and their initiative mechanic is a boon without real drawbacks.

You cannot say the same of many classes. Including the mesmer.

That is the not the problem tho. the -50% damage trait is. Oh guess what? It is a Minor.

StickerHappy.8052:

Zenith.7301:

apharma.3741:

Zenith.7301:

Thief with runes of vampirism and new trait update that allows them to take up most of shadow arts without the damage loss that they would have seen right now is just going to be dumb.

Expect the nerf pleas to get a lot louder.

Most people in spvp are playing against thieves who right now can’t afford shadow arts, but they will afford it come the trait revamp, and it helps them far more than the mesmer changes help the mesmer in this particular match up.

Currently most thieves take SA for the condi removal, granted they can’t afford the rest and keep low cool down steal (though skipping sleight of hand only increases the cool down by 6.5s) or give up other things.

With the trait changes they can’t just pick up that one trait. So now they’re going to have to pick the traits that make stealth so powerful. I mean it’s one of the only dependable condition removals they have. I know about shadow step but it is a very long cool down just for a cleanse, especially as it’s one of if not the only stun break they use.

Also we’re going to see mug, panic strikes and executioner all in the same line, all available at the same time, well under current previews.

Yeah, my problem with that condi removal trait it’s a stealth bug. It’s supposed to remove a condi for every 3 seconds in stealth, but right now it also removes a condition upon stealth application. And now they’re gonna be able to pick up the rest of SA, which is immensely powerful.

Thieves get pretty much everything at a cheaper opportunity cost. Lower cooldowns, more condensed effects and traits.

Their traitlines are rather cleaned up, their minors are all particularly strong, and their initiative mechanic is a boon without real drawbacks.

You cannot say the same of many classes. Including the mesmer.

That is the not the problem tho. the -50% damage trait is. Oh guess what? It is a Minor.

Well, that trait isn’t ingame yet thankfully. The condie removal one is.

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Zenith.7301:

apharma.3741:

Zenith.7301:

Thief with runes of vampirism and new trait update that allows them to take up most of shadow arts without the damage loss that they would have seen right now is just going to be dumb.

Expect the nerf pleas to get a lot louder.

Most people in spvp are playing against thieves who right now can’t afford shadow arts, but they will afford it come the trait revamp, and it helps them far more than the mesmer changes help the mesmer in this particular match up.

Currently most thieves take SA for the condi removal, granted they can’t afford the rest and keep low cool down steal (though skipping sleight of hand only increases the cool down by 6.5s) or give up other things.

With the trait changes they can’t just pick up that one trait. So now they’re going to have to pick the traits that make stealth so powerful. I mean it’s one of the only dependable condition removals they have. I know about shadow step but it is a very long cool down just for a cleanse, especially as it’s one of if not the only stun break they use.

Also we’re going to see mug, panic strikes and executioner all in the same line, all available at the same time, well under current previews.

Yeah, my problem with that condi removal trait it’s a stealth bug. It’s supposed to remove a condi for every 3 seconds in stealth, but right now it also removes a condition upon stealth application. And now they’re gonna be able to pick up the rest of SA, which is immensely powerful.

Thieves get pretty much everything at a cheaper opportunity cost. Lower cooldowns, more condensed effects and traits.

Their traitlines are rather cleaned up, their minors are all particularly strong, and their initiative mechanic is a boon without real drawbacks.

You cannot say the same of many classes. Including the mesmer.

That is the not the problem tho. the -50% damage trait is. Oh guess what? It is a Minor.

Well, that trait isn’t ingame yet thankfully. The condie removal one is.

But every thief swears they’re not OP and have only been nerfed. They do this till they’re blue in the face. Are you suggesting fourty-thousand thieves could be wrong? :o

Ross Biddle.2367:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Zenith.7301:

apharma.3741:

Zenith.7301:

Thief with runes of vampirism and new trait update that allows them to take up most of shadow arts without the damage loss that they would have seen right now is just going to be dumb.

Expect the nerf pleas to get a lot louder.

Most people in spvp are playing against thieves who right now can’t afford shadow arts, but they will afford it come the trait revamp, and it helps them far more than the mesmer changes help the mesmer in this particular match up.

Currently most thieves take SA for the condi removal, granted they can’t afford the rest and keep low cool down steal (though skipping sleight of hand only increases the cool down by 6.5s) or give up other things.

With the trait changes they can’t just pick up that one trait. So now they’re going to have to pick the traits that make stealth so powerful. I mean it’s one of the only dependable condition removals they have. I know about shadow step but it is a very long cool down just for a cleanse, especially as it’s one of if not the only stun break they use.

Also we’re going to see mug, panic strikes and executioner all in the same line, all available at the same time, well under current previews.

Yeah, my problem with that condi removal trait it’s a stealth bug. It’s supposed to remove a condi for every 3 seconds in stealth, but right now it also removes a condition upon stealth application. And now they’re gonna be able to pick up the rest of SA, which is immensely powerful.

Thieves get pretty much everything at a cheaper opportunity cost. Lower cooldowns, more condensed effects and traits.

Their traitlines are rather cleaned up, their minors are all particularly strong, and their initiative mechanic is a boon without real drawbacks.

You cannot say the same of many classes. Including the mesmer.

That is the not the problem tho. the -50% damage trait is. Oh guess what? It is a Minor.

Well, that trait isn’t ingame yet thankfully. The condie removal one is.

But every thief swears they’re not OP and have only been nerfed. They do this till they’re blue in the face. Are you suggesting fourty-thousand thieves could be wrong? :o

Do you watch basketball?

Quick summary of thieves.

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Zenith.7301:

apharma.3741:

Zenith.7301:

Thief with runes of vampirism and new trait update that allows them to take up most of shadow arts without the damage loss that they would have seen right now is just going to be dumb.

Expect the nerf pleas to get a lot louder.

Most people in spvp are playing against thieves who right now can’t afford shadow arts, but they will afford it come the trait revamp, and it helps them far more than the mesmer changes help the mesmer in this particular match up.

Currently most thieves take SA for the condi removal, granted they can’t afford the rest and keep low cool down steal (though skipping sleight of hand only increases the cool down by 6.5s) or give up other things.

With the trait changes they can’t just pick up that one trait. So now they’re going to have to pick the traits that make stealth so powerful. I mean it’s one of the only dependable condition removals they have. I know about shadow step but it is a very long cool down just for a cleanse, especially as it’s one of if not the only stun break they use.

Also we’re going to see mug, panic strikes and executioner all in the same line, all available at the same time, well under current previews.

Yeah, my problem with that condi removal trait it’s a stealth bug. It’s supposed to remove a condi for every 3 seconds in stealth, but right now it also removes a condition upon stealth application. And now they’re gonna be able to pick up the rest of SA, which is immensely powerful.

Thieves get pretty much everything at a cheaper opportunity cost. Lower cooldowns, more condensed effects and traits.

Their traitlines are rather cleaned up, their minors are all particularly strong, and their initiative mechanic is a boon without real drawbacks.

You cannot say the same of many classes. Including the mesmer.

That is the not the problem tho. the -50% damage trait is. Oh guess what? It is a Minor.

Well, that trait isn’t ingame yet thankfully. The condie removal one is.

But every thief swears they’re not OP and have only been nerfed. They do this till they’re blue in the face. Are you suggesting fourty-thousand thieves could be wrong? :o

Do you watch basketball?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgbHF5qKXTo

Quick summary of thieves.

Only Filipino’s watch basketball, you should know this.

Condi PU is amazing. Just last week i had a blast tanking 2 of these with my bunker guard (i have two guards and one is still AH) without much trouble. Kudos to whoever plays this build because if i would see it being that useless, i would change.

True, you can hold your own against thieves and that’s about it.

Look, the OP states that hos teammates never peel for him. That most likely means that he isn’t in the top mmr. This in turn means that he probably doesn’t face top thieves ie Levin/toker/whatever. Thieves that aren’t “top thieves” can be dealt with. Yes, it is annoying, but they can most defintely be killed. Therefore the most logical thing to do is to either give the OP a different build or give him tips vs thieves (assuming he plays shatter).

The problem with playing a different build (pu, condi) is that you will be close to useless in teamfight. PU cant even hold a point correctly. Therefore, it is a better option to give tips vs thieves, which i’ve done already. I can give other tips i guess tho, if you want? =)

Quadox.7834:

Look, the OP states that hos teammates never peel for him. That most likely means that he isn’t in the top mmr. This in turn means that he probably doesn’t face top thieves ie Levin/toker/whatever. Thieves that aren’t “top thieves” can be dealt with. Yes, it is annoying, but they can most defintely be killed. Therefore the most logical thing to do is to either give the OP a different build or give him tips vs thieves (assuming he plays shatter).

The problem with playing a different build (pu, condi) is that you will be close to useless in teamfight. PU cant even hold a point correctly. Therefore, it is a better option to give tips vs thieves, which i’ve done already. I can give other tips i guess tho, if you want? =)

teamfights and pugs dont mix tho. so its okay to be selfish in a sense.

serenke.4806:

Condi PU is amazing. Just last week i had a blast tanking 2 of these with my bunker guard (i have two guards and one is still AH) without much trouble. Kudos to whoever plays this build because if i would see it being that useless, i would change.

True, you can hold your own against thieves and that’s about it.

If a PU mesmer tries to kill a bunker guard, that’s how you know they’re bad. That’s something you should never be doing, there’s better ways to use your time.

Fay.2357:

serenke.4806:

Condi PU is amazing. Just last week i had a blast tanking 2 of these with my bunker guard (i have two guards and one is still AH) without much trouble. Kudos to whoever plays this build because if i would see it being that useless, i would change.

True, you can hold your own against thieves and that’s about it.

If a PU mesmer tries to kill a bunker guard, that’s how you know they’re bad. That’s something you should never be doing, there’s better ways to use your time.

And if two at the same time try it, repeatedly? They got the idea of going PU from somewhere.

serenke.4806:

Fay.2357:

serenke.4806:

Condi PU is amazing. Just last week i had a blast tanking 2 of these with my bunker guard (i have two guards and one is still AH) without much trouble. Kudos to whoever plays this build because if i would see it being that useless, i would change.

True, you can hold your own against thieves and that’s about it.

If a PU mesmer tries to kill a bunker guard, that’s how you know they’re bad. That’s something you should never be doing, there’s better ways to use your time.

And if two at the same time try it, repeatedly? They got the idea of going PU from somewhere.

If two were to try it at the same time, repeatedly, then obviously they were both awful. I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at?

Ross Biddle.2367:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Zenith.7301:

apharma.3741:

Zenith.7301:

Thief with runes of vampirism and new trait update that allows them to take up most of shadow arts without the damage loss that they would have seen right now is just going to be dumb.

Expect the nerf pleas to get a lot louder.

Most people in spvp are playing against thieves who right now can’t afford shadow arts, but they will afford it come the trait revamp, and it helps them far more than the mesmer changes help the mesmer in this particular match up.

Currently most thieves take SA for the condi removal, granted they can’t afford the rest and keep low cool down steal (though skipping sleight of hand only increases the cool down by 6.5s) or give up other things.

With the trait changes they can’t just pick up that one trait. So now they’re going to have to pick the traits that make stealth so powerful. I mean it’s one of the only dependable condition removals they have. I know about shadow step but it is a very long cool down just for a cleanse, especially as it’s one of if not the only stun break they use.

Also we’re going to see mug, panic strikes and executioner all in the same line, all available at the same time, well under current previews.

Yeah, my problem with that condi removal trait it’s a stealth bug. It’s supposed to remove a condi for every 3 seconds in stealth, but right now it also removes a condition upon stealth application. And now they’re gonna be able to pick up the rest of SA, which is immensely powerful.

Thieves get pretty much everything at a cheaper opportunity cost. Lower cooldowns, more condensed effects and traits.

Their traitlines are rather cleaned up, their minors are all particularly strong, and their initiative mechanic is a boon without real drawbacks.

You cannot say the same of many classes. Including the mesmer.

That is the not the problem tho. the -50% damage trait is. Oh guess what? It is a Minor.

Well, that trait isn’t ingame yet thankfully. The condie removal one is.

But every thief swears they’re not OP and have only been nerfed. They do this till they’re blue in the face. Are you suggesting fourty-thousand thieves could be wrong? :o

Yeah the -50% damage in stealth would be quite a QQstorm if it hits as a minor.

I don’t think thieves are OP, you pin it down and it dies as fast as a mesmer if not quicker. The problem is stuff like “blockblockblockblockblockblockblockblock doublesigilprocOMFG1337skillzbackstab”

Someone suggested in the thief forums for a reveal on block or miss from stealth and I gotta say it would probably solve a lot of problems. 2s reveal sounds nice considering the cost of rest earthing. <- wtf, rest earthing, ggnore iPad auto correct, re-stealthing.

The inclusion of a few more revealing traps or skills wouldn’t be bad either just to allow some counter to stealth. Thieves are also getting a major rework of these high dodge uptime builds so they actually have to use skill and not spam dodges.

I had a massive wall explaining everything but I just keep repeating myself so I won’t write that much anymore.

In my very first post, did I say anything about peels? No. I only brought it up later as I felt the discussion went towards that direction. The 2nd time I went to post was to tell you that you are leaving out a part of the contract of swapping build and thats all I wanted to say. Everything else is just unnecessary excess that got pulled in by me and you.
Good thieves arent beaten that easily, but still affordable. Great thieves (meaning Levin, Arzsi, Kaazers, Toker ect) are doable, I’ve seen them go down to a mesmer, but its the point where its not wroth trying to fight them.
I also wanted to explain the disengage. I thought like you – how do I disengage when thief just follows me? You didn’t disengage then! Proper disengage is as I explained already. You stealth and blink out, when you’re out of stealth, you shouldn’t be visable to them anymore because you should be far away by then. If you don’t do that, you failed to disengage. I had this issue for a bit until I got help from Helseth with it. It is very much so possible to do.
Most people don’t face great thieves. I have problems with great thieves, even good ones if they get a good opener, nothing you can do vs that without team peels, thats a fact, but if you’re getting those types of thieves, your team will most likely have the brain power to peel for you even the slightliest amount because not noticing a thief attacking your mesmer in a fight you’re in takes serious lack of concentration..

Also to the OP – Sorry for all this discussing, another thing I wanted to write but forgot – Small bursts vs thieves are gold. Stuff like dodge mind wrack, mind stab mind wrack. Something thats got very low counterplay.

Jurica.1742:

Okay.. Well, while my tips help give your team time to kill the thief, guess what? They give the same thing to you. Also, the portal disengage thing is completely wrong. If he follows you, you did not disengage properly. Disengage means, stealth and when you’re out of stealth, no one can see you anymore and yes, it is very much so doable. I thought like you until I asked Helseth for help and he told me this. Its really possible and no thief will follow you if you disengage well.

While stealthing and then moving yourself outside of visible range is technically possible without portal, there are a couple of massive caveats to this.

First, from any given location, getting yourself outside of visible range is almost always going to be in a predictable direction. If the thief knows what they’re doing, they can still chase you past that.

However, there’s a more important point, and it’s that by stealthing and moving yourself beyond visible range…you’ve successfully managed to run away from the thief. Good job! Now, go back to the team fight aaaaaand the thief jumps on you again. So now you stealth and run away again.

Congratulations, you’ve succeeded in doing absolutely nothing the entire game other than running away from a thief. Nothing about that is fun or even remotely beneficial to your team.

Jurica.1742:

About the good thieves ect. I said multiple times I think that most thieves one faces in soloq isnt a good one (most thieves =/= good thieves). If its a bad one, he dies to burst (not just a mirror blade to the face, an idiot will dodge that), if its a decent one, if you dodge his steal the job is very much so easier and dodging steal is kind of something you learn to do because its somewhat predictable. You can also avoid it with good positioning to make it fail. Versus top thieves is where you wont have that big of a chance. I mean, you can still kill them, but thats where its really not worth trying.

I think it’s sensible to assume that in any given match, the thief and mesmer will be at a similar level of skill. With that assumption, you can draw the conclusion that a power shatter mesmer will be challenged severely to deal with a thief without a team peeling for them.

Jurica.1742:

Okay, the logic of suggesting another build if he cant fight the thief does stand, but only if you leave out the part that it will significantly hurt his ability to do other things for a bit of an easier job vs a thief. Thats my main point – you left out a big part of the contract in swapping to another build and just told him the good side.

Except that everything you just said is wrong. Switching to a non-power shatter build will significantly impact your ability to perform the role of a power shatter. If you try to play maim shatter or PU condie or phantasm the way you would power shatter…you’re going to have a bad time.

This discussion has been had to death, but it always comes down to the same true fact: In any pvp outside of WTS-level play, all reasonable mesmer builds are equally viable given the player understand the role that they need to assume on that particular build.

Let somebody else take the role of aoe burst and thief target. I’ll be playing something that performs just as well, and doesn’t have an asterisk next to me saying *you might just end up running away from a thief your entire match, have fun

Well I changed my post completely as you were posting, take a look at that. You’re not going to do as good with a build that isnt shatter. If you would, it would be played in ESLs. Thats a fact. If you could do equally well with a shatter and a maim mesmer build, why don’t we see them in ESLs? What happens if you play those builds on a decent level is you get carried. Phantasms die in cleave. Your immobs get cleansed by massive condi removal if you play lockdown. Same thing happens to your condis if you’re playing a condi mes in teamfights, yeah, you can play it as backcap or close point defender/1v1, but why not get an extra ele then? It will do the job even better and will also be good in teamfights.

I’m not against him playing condi, he can do that if he wants, I just want him to know that its got cons too, not just pros. I even said this in one of my posts.

With thief’s, I have started using a different approach. After they hit me once and disappear, I simply stand still, and wait. I will get null field ready, the second they come out of stealth, I throw null field on top of us both, they disappear, I get blink ready, second they come out, I blink out of it, then I start using my stealth, rinse and repeat.

tym.3791:

With thief’s, I have started using a different approach. After they hit me once and disappear, I simply stand still, and wait. I will get null field ready, the second they come out of stealth, I throw null field on top of us both, they disappear, I get blink ready, second they come out, I blink out of it, then I start using my stealth, rinse and repeat.

Because the shock of a sudden null field puts the thief into cardiac arrest???

o.O

I win the most duells against thieves with PS Shatter. If they play D/P its a hard fight, but D/P is broken anyway. Lockdown is nice too or Hybrid Phantasm, but in my opinion nothing goes over PS Shatter when fighting non D/P

Its important to have Blink OR Decoy everytime ready. The good ones will probably wreck you if you have both on a long CD

Fay.2357:

serenke.4806:

Fay.2357:

serenke.4806:

Condi PU is amazing. Just last week i had a blast tanking 2 of these with my bunker guard (i have two guards and one is still AH) without much trouble. Kudos to whoever plays this build because if i would see it being that useless, i would change.

True, you can hold your own against thieves and that’s about it.

If a PU mesmer tries to kill a bunker guard, that’s how you know they’re bad. That’s something you should never be doing, there’s better ways to use your time.

And if two at the same time try it, repeatedly? They got the idea of going PU from somewhere.

If two were to try it at the same time, repeatedly, then obviously they were both awful. I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at?

My point was and still is, there is a reason why PU is awful, has always been awful and unless somehow condi cleanses disappear, will be awful. Great for roaming in wvw, of course.

I think we’re all splitting hairs a bit, but I can’t help siding with Pyro on this one. Every thing he’s said were the exact thoughts running through my head.

I love when people are trying to tell me what advice to give another player given a situation we’ve probably all been in. Spurting off that you’re “useless” to your team in another build is just ridiculous and unhelpful. Do you know when I’m truly useless to my team? When I’m spending 75% of the match in downed/dead state or running back to the action.

Every other claim of being “useless” to you team, including PU/Condie I might add, are HUGE exaggerations; based entirely on hyperbole. False! Horse poop! Rubbish! Being dead and waiting on the release timer, that’s when you’re truly useless to your team.

The reason I advise the OP to try a new build is because:

1) I’ve been there and done that, and through experience have found that playing a different build is the only way I can enjoy pug matches. (Usually inundated with Thieves.)

2) Due to #1, I feel the OPs frustration, and feel I must share my experiences and give him the advice needed to have more fun in those non-peeling pug matches.

3) I also want to educate the OP that Thieves are not actually a true hard counter to Mesmers as a whole, but rather only to Zerker/GC Mesmers and most specifically Power Shatter.

4) I do not share the sentiment that all other builds make you useless to your team. My experiences do not match that hyperbole.

I could go on with more reasons why I am allowed to give the advice that has worked for me, and will defend that advice as being sound. When asked for help that didn’t specifically say “how can I play p-shatter better vs. thieves in pugs” then he’s going to get the “change your build” advice from me every time.

It worked for me and it’s worked for many others. I do not play MSL or top-tier organized PvP, nor do I care to.

The realization to play another build didn’t come to me based on “forum elitists” pushing their leftist propaganda against P-Shatter builds, but rather by the absolute fact that in my games, I was feeling very useless to my team as a p-shatter Mesmer being dead all the time. Not just to Thieves, but being a glass cannon with little/no Condie removal makes you susceptible to many other situations as well. (Especially since you’re forced to shatter at melee range in paper-tissue armor.)

There is no other profession/build that has an easier time killing me 1v1 in any of these alternative builds. There are simply a couple more “stand-off” cases where I can’t kill them, maybe, but they also can’t kill me! The Thief is literally the only one that has a good chance to keep me from disengaging a fight. All others I can either win 1v1 or disengage at will…mostly win I might add.

• In a team which’s composition & skill-level I can not know ahead of time, this is absolutely the safest way to ensure a fun time for me.

It’s a matter of flexibility over specificity. Always being able to do the best with whatever kind of a team I get, over praying that I’m able to perform the one function I’m great at. Medium risk with medium reward over high risk and high reward.

Windwalker.7421:

I think we’re all splitting hairs a bit, but I can’t help siding with Pyro on this one. Every thing he’s said were the exact thoughts running through my head.

I love when people are trying to tell me what advice to give another player given a situation we’ve probably all been in. Spurting off that you’re “useless” to your team in another build is just ridiculous and unhelpful. Do you know when I’m truly useless to my team? When I’m spending 75% of the match in downed/dead state or running back to the action.

Every other claim of being “useless” to you team, including PU/Condie I might add, are HUGE exaggerations; based entirely on hyperbole. False! Horse poop! Rubbish! Being dead and waiting on the release timer, that’s when you’re truly useless to your team.

The reason I advise the OP to try a new build is because:

1) I’ve been there and done that, and through experience have found that playing a different build is the only way I can enjoy pug matches. (Usually inundated with Thieves.)

2) Due to #1, I feel the OPs frustration, and feel I must share my experiences and give him the advice needed to have more fun in those non-peeling pug matches.

3) I also want to educate the OP that Thieves are not actually a true hard counter to Mesmers as a whole, but rather only to Zerker/GC Mesmers and most specifically Power Shatter.

4) I do not share the sentiment that all other builds make you useless to your team. My experiences do not match that hyperbole.

I could go on with more reasons why I am allowed to give the advice that has worked for me, and will defend that advice as being sound. When asked for help that didn’t specifically say “how can I play p-shatter better vs. thieves in pugs” then he’s going to get the “change your build” advice from me every time.

It worked for me and it’s worked for many others. I do not play MSL or top-tier organized PvP, nor do I care to.

The realization to play another build didn’t come to me based on “forum elitists” pushing their leftist propaganda against P-Shatter builds, but rather by the absolute fact that in my games, I was feeling very useless to my team as a p-shatter Mesmer being dead all the time. Not just to Thieves, but being a glass cannon with little/no Condie removal makes you susceptible to many other situations as well. (Especially since you’re forced to shatter at melee range in paper-tissue armor.)

There is no other profession/build that has an easier time killing me 1v1 in any of these alternative builds. There are simply a couple more “stand-off” cases where I can’t kill them, maybe, but they also can’t kill me! The Thief is literally the only one that has a good chance to keep me from disengaging a fight. All others I can either win 1v1 or disengage at will…mostly win I might add.

• In a team which’s composition & skill-level I can not know ahead of time, this is absolutely the safest way to ensure a fun time for me.

It’s a matter of flexibility over specificity. Always being able to do the best with whatever kind of a team I get, over praying that I’m able to perform the one function I’m great at. Medium risk with medium reward over high risk and high reward.

" Do you know when I’m truly useless to my team? When I’m spending 75% of the match in downed/dead state or running back to the action."

And that is why i gave tips on how to fight thieves from a shatter mesmer’s perspective (assuming OP plays shatter!).

I might make a video some time if this question ever arises again (which it will lol)

Windwalker.7421:

I think we’re all splitting hairs a bit, but I can’t help siding with Pyro on this one. Every thing he’s said were the exact thoughts running through my head.

I love when people are trying to tell me what advice to give another player given a situation we’ve probably all been in. Spurting off that you’re “useless” to your team in another build is just ridiculous and unhelpful. Do you know when I’m truly useless to my team? When I’m spending 75% of the match in downed/dead state or running back to the action.

Every other claim of being “useless” to you team, including PU/Condie I might add, are HUGE exaggerations; based entirely on hyperbole. False! Horse poop! Rubbish! Being dead and waiting on the release timer, that’s when you’re truly useless to your team.

The reason I advise the OP to try a new build is because:

1) I’ve been there and done that, and through experience have found that playing a different build is the only way I can enjoy pug matches. (Usually inundated with Thieves.)

2) Due to #1, I feel the OPs frustration, and feel I must share my experiences and give him the advice needed to have more fun in those non-peeling pug matches.

3) I also want to educate the OP that Thieves are not actually a true hard counter to Mesmers as a whole, but rather only to Zerker/GC Mesmers and most specifically Power Shatter.

4) I do not share the sentiment that all other builds make you useless to your team. My experiences do not match that hyperbole.

I could go on with more reasons why I am allowed to give the advice that has worked for me, and will defend that advice as being sound. When asked for help that didn’t specifically say “how can I play p-shatter better vs. thieves in pugs” then he’s going to get the “change your build” advice from me every time.

It worked for me and it’s worked for many others. I do not play MSL or top-tier organized PvP, nor do I care to.

The realization to play another build didn’t come to me based on “forum elitists” pushing their leftist propaganda against P-Shatter builds, but rather by the absolute fact that in my games, I was feeling very useless to my team as a p-shatter Mesmer being dead all the time. Not just to Thieves, but being a glass cannon with little/no Condie removal makes you susceptible to many other situations as well. (Especially since you’re forced to shatter at melee range in paper-tissue armor.)

There is no other profession/build that has an easier time killing me 1v1 in any of these alternative builds. There are simply a couple more “stand-off” cases where I can’t kill them, maybe, but they also can’t kill me! The Thief is literally the only one that has a good chance to keep me from disengaging a fight. All others I can either win 1v1 or disengage at will…mostly win I might add.

• In a team which’s composition & skill-level I can not know ahead of time, this is absolutely the safest way to ensure a fun time for me.

It’s a matter of flexibility over specificity. Always being able to do the best with whatever kind of a team I get, over praying that I’m able to perform the one function I’m great at. Medium risk with medium reward over high risk and high reward.

Very, very well said.

serenke.4806:

Fay.2357:

serenke.4806:

Fay.2357:

serenke.4806:

Condi PU is amazing. Just last week i had a blast tanking 2 of these with my bunker guard (i have two guards and one is still AH) without much trouble. Kudos to whoever plays this build because if i would see it being that useless, i would change.

True, you can hold your own against thieves and that’s about it.

If a PU mesmer tries to kill a bunker guard, that’s how you know they’re bad. That’s something you should never be doing, there’s better ways to use your time.

And if two at the same time try it, repeatedly? They got the idea of going PU from somewhere.

If two were to try it at the same time, repeatedly, then obviously they were both awful. I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at?

My point was and still is, there is a reason why PU is awful, has always been awful and unless somehow condi cleanses disappear, will be awful. Great for roaming in wvw, of course.

No, I’m sorry, but you have no point. What you’re saying is “PU mesmers attacked my bunker guardian and failed to kill it. This means PU is awful.”

This is not a point, this is you putting 2 completely random sentences together and hoping that we don’t call you on it. There is absolutely zero logic or truth in your statement. The fact that PU mesmers failed to kill a build that’s fantastic at cleansing conditions, staying alive, and doesn’t need to attack is simply saying that PU mesmers are bad at killing bunker guardians, along with everything else in the game.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

MSFone.3026:

It’s funny that the OP didn’t actually mention what build he is running. While it’s safe to assume it’s standard shatter, it is amusing that this whole argument about shatter (again guys, really?) got started by people in the thread without the OP ever mentioning what build he is running. He also didn’t really say what his goal was, except vaguely to not die in 2-4 seconds. It’s funny how easy it is for the never ending build argument over shatter to get going.

My 2 cents: The argument over what build is best is seriously dumb, because “best” depends on the goals of the individual player. If your goal is to just never get killed, play PU. If you goal is to 1 shot people, play shatter. If your goal is some reasonable mix of the two, well, on it goes.

Actually, the argument isn’t about which build is best. The argument is moreso over whether or not switching your build to deal with a specific class is a good decision and is the trade off worth it.

Jurica.1742:

You’re not going to do as good with a build that isnt shatter. If you would, it would be played in ESLs. Thats a fact. If you could do equally well with a shatter and a maim mesmer build, why don’t we see them in ESLs?

@Chaos: Just because any claim of confusion on my part irks me, the above shows that while some here may not be getting into the old shatter argument, that argument is clearly present.

I think everyone here needs to understand that team builds with VoIP and support are not necessarily to be used in soloq.

I want to build so that I am never dependent on anyone. I will accept help gladly of course, and give it when I can. But I will always assume that no one is going to help me. This means I have to be able to take care of myself.

I am not going to cripple myself with a build that can’t fight a certain class at all (and one which has excellent mobility I may add). Period.

For this reason, I will not play a pure glass cannon build that can’t counter a thief.

bhagwad.4281:

I think everyone here needs to understand that team builds with VoIP and support are not necessarily to be used in soloq.

I want to build so that I am never dependent on anyone. I will accept help gladly of course, and give it when I can. But I will always assume that no one is going to help me. This means I have to be able to take care of myself.

I am not going to cripple myself with a build that can’t fight a certain class at all (and one which has excellent mobility I may add). Period.

For this reason, I will not play a pure glass cannon build that can’t counter a thief.

God I hate it when someone sums up my wall of text so eloquently and most of all short!

Very well said, if you had posted that before me, I would have spared everyone the wall!

Windwalker.7421:

bhagwad.4281:

I think everyone here needs to understand that team builds with VoIP and support are not necessarily to be used in soloq.

I want to build so that I am never dependent on anyone. I will accept help gladly of course, and give it when I can. But I will always assume that no one is going to help me. This means I have to be able to take care of myself.

I am not going to cripple myself with a build that can’t fight a certain class at all (and one which has excellent mobility I may add). Period.

For this reason, I will not play a pure glass cannon build that can’t counter a thief.

God I hate it when someone sums up my wall of text so eloquently and most of all short!

Very well said, if you had posted that before me, I would have spared everyone the wall!

The wall was better. The wall took the time to turn me on and get me all hot and steamy. The wall contained so much great foreplay.

StickerHappy.8052:

cyyrix.6105:

StickerHappy.8052:

He didn’t ask how to duel thieves, he asked how to survive in a match with a good thief. Changing to a build that counters a thief does not help you survive the match…It just displaces the problem off the thief.

What does that mean? How do you actually not survive the match? Fall damage?

What? What?

Being less effective overall. Fewer 1v1 deaths does not make fewerdeathss in a match. Too much duel hero logic, sir.

Wow the ole twistaroo… what you meant that it does not help you survive the match was waaaay different with what your saying now..

Fewer 1v1 deaths? What makes you say 1v1? You are embarrasing yourself. You say fewer deaths in a match so it means you are referring to other builds to change to does not help you against other classes? I mean cmon now…

You are basically saying that again changing the build does not help you survive the match (WHICH IS REFERRING TO OTHER CLASSES, UNLESS YOU ARE PLAYING AGAINST 5 THIEVES)

So you are saying changing the build is being less effective overall? which means correct me If I am wrong CHANGING A BUILD THAT COUNTERS THIEF IS WEAK OR USELESS AGAINST ANY OTHER CLASSES right?

OK, apparently I need to be more explicit with my argument. Hopefully we can get you and Pyro out of the duel bro logic before your heads explode in frustration…

The quality of a build is defined by more than how it individually matches up against each other profession. Other factors include:

1) The build’s ability to disengage
2) The build’s ability to decide fights quickly (or slowly, if holding a point)
2) The build’s ability to team fight

With this in mind, hopefully Pyro and Sticker can realize that they’re framing their entire argument in how a build matches up individually against each other profession. I like to call this dueling logic.

Instead they need to view a match as an ongoing engagement comprised of multiple fights at different times, with different numbers, different +1’s, different starting CD pools, and different goals for each fight.

With all this in mind, let’s take a look at Pyro’s latest signature “condescending-out-of-context-gotcha-quote” post:

Fay.2357:

cyyrix.6105:

Never said it was weak to anything else

INSTANT FACT CHECK

cyyrix.6105:

Sure a different build helps with thieves, but it makes you weaker against other stuff.

Oopsie.

You’re equating the word “stuff” to “professions”. Again, dueling logic. There’s more “stuff” in a match than how your build matches up against others. Further, in the first quote, I was responding to Sticker, who was discussing profession match ups. With this crazy thing called “context”, it’s clear that the first quote refers to match ups and the second to how build’s more general effectiveness in a match. It’s not a contradiction at all.

cyyrix.6105:

cyyrix.6105:

never said condi doesn’t help you survive.

INSTANT FACT CHECK

cyyrix.6105:

Changing to a build that counters a thief does not help you survive the match

Oopsie.

The idea here was to differentiate “surviving a match” from “surviving a fight”. Clearly that went right over your head.

Fay.2357:

cyyrix.6105:

Nope, not contradicting myself.

I’ll let everyone else figure this one out for themselves.

Telling you I wasn’t contradicting myself was my fruitless attempt to get both of you thinking about a match as a whole, rather than simply considering build match ups. I guess it didn’t work. But no, I never contradicted myself, and still haven’t.

This is not backpedaling. This is explaining my original stance to people with hasty judgment so that they might take a second to step back and think.

StickerHappy.8052:

You are basically saying that again changing the build does not help you survive the match (WHICH IS REFERRING TO OTHER CLASSES, UNLESS YOU ARE PLAYING AGAINST 5 THIEVES)

Have you ever considered that if you take too long to win a 1v1, you might get +1’d in a duel? What about if you bring poor support and lose a team fight, you are more likely to get 2v1’d off respawn?

StickerHappy.8052:

So you are saying changing the build is being less effective overall? which means correct me If I am wrong CHANGING A BUILD THAT COUNTERS THIEF IS WEAK OR USELESS AGAINST ANY OTHER CLASSES right?

Hopefully now you can see that I’m not saying that. At all. Both of the things I described above lead to more deaths and decrease your likelihood of surviving a match, while still having a more favorable individual match up against each class.

For the last time, it’s not just about build match ups. It’s about the evolution of the match as a whole. Please think a little bit before attacking me.

What I’m reading is an attempt to justify contradictory and incorrect statements by leveraging minor bits of syntax that ignore the actual quality of the posts.

Regardless, your points are still completely wrong. Let me put this in simple terms for you:

Problem: Thief kills power shatter Mesmer

Solution: Have team peel thief.

Problem 2: PuGs don’t peel thieves.

Solution: Play a build that doesn’t get killed by thieves.

It’s that simple. The other qualities of the suggested builds can be debated, but that’s not the point here. Your argument has been flawed from the very first time you posted in this thread. All builds have weaknesses and counters, but some counters are harder than other, and some weaknesses are easier to ameliorate than others.

You attempted to draw a false equivalency between the counter a thief poses to a power shatter mes and the weaknesses that condie builds face in the meta. These are two completely different issues, and matching them like you did is why your arguments are all inherently flawed.

Fay.2357:

Problem: Thief kills power shatter Mesmer

Solution 1: Have team peel thief.

Problem 2: PuGs don’t peel thieves.

Solution 2: Play a build that doesn’t get killed by thieves.

Problem 3a: Counter thieves, but introduce other problems because your build is less effective in other ways

Instead…

Solution 2: Learn to play against thieves more intelligently, instead of sacrificing other utility/effectiveness to counter them

Problem 3b: Still get killed by thieves, but at a lesser rate, and without sacrificing the advantages power shatter has over other builds

You prefer 3a, I prefer 3b. I think we just need to agree to disagree on this one.

@cyrrix:
The plausibility of your “Solution 2” is what has been drawn into question. Most believe that given equal skill level, the Thief will beat the standard Power Shatter spec’d mesmer.

You either agree or disagree with this.

I’ve been running a condi shatter that has put some serious hurt on thieves, if they dont catch me utterly flat footed. not 100% perfect record, but I’ve won more duels against thieves than I’ve lost in pvp.

I have to say though that in WVW and some pvp, using a modied PU mesmer (where I use stealth to protect myself while my phantasms go to work), or a stunlock phantasm build have done well too.

The one that surprised thieves most though? Bunker builds with pu and phantasms. the thief comes out of cloak and hammers me… and is shocked when he sees I still have an appreciable amount of health left. throw out Decoy, then a couple phantasms and duck back under stealth… I usually like to use a soldier set with runes of the dolyak and the healing signet, PU, and triumphant distortion, so the thief also has some difficulty one-shotting my phantasms.

I’m now experimenting with another bunker build using signet of illusions and phantasmal defender along with the inspiration trait that buffs phantasms health 20%, more for WVW than pvp, also along with triumphant distortion, see if they can survive zergs long enough for at least some minor contribution lol… but I suspect not

Sebrent.3625:

@cyrrix:
The plausibility of your “Solution 2” is what has been drawn into question. Most believe that given equal skill level, the Thief will beat the standard Power Shatter spec’d mesmer.

You either agree or disagree with this.

Everyone agrees with this. Luckily (or something), the mmr isn’t that good / too few players.

Sebrent.3625:

@cyrrix:
The plausibility of your “Solution 2” is what has been drawn into question. Most believe that given equal skill level, the Thief will beat the standard Power Shatter spec’d mesmer.

You either agree or disagree with this.

I agree 100% with it. But again, this is an ongoing match with 5 people on each team, not a 1v1.

Assuming the mesmer is going to die, increasing the “time to kill” can still do wonders…It might give your teammate (even a pug) enough time to finish up a fight elsewhere, then +1 you. It might force a shadow refuge out of the thief, which then can’t be used on a rez. It will definitely drain more initiative, which makes him less useful immediately after downing you.

It’s these sorts of small victories to play for, which help you survive the match. If you can actually beat the thief, that’s just icing on the cake.

If the Thief is downing you, it doesn’t matter how much “less useful” you make him due to it “taking more time” or “costing more initiative” … he is winning those encounters and thus giving his team an advantage.

• He scored points for his team by taking you out
• You will have more time wasted respawning and running back to the action than he will regenerating his initiative.

Those “small victories” aren’t enough to make up for these “bigger victories” that the Thief is gaining throughout the match.

If you take Mantra of Distraction as your third utility (w/ halting strike), thieves become a lot more management. S/D becomes a lot easier (larcenous and infil strike are the easiest to interrupt, in my experience). And for D/P, interrupting the BP+HS combo really messes a lot of thieves up (you can also just interrupt the dagger AA chain to stop their damage monetarily). To interrupt the BP+HS combo, make sure to keep a clone between you and the thief to block the BP projectile blind (or just dodge it).

After that, it’s all about figuring out the thief’s dodge patterns so you can time a shatter or two.

The thief may still have the upper hand in a strict 1v1 engagement, and a DP thief that’s very good with his blinds and interrupts will probably still wreck you. But, if played right, you should do OK vs thieves in the majority of your pugs.

cyyrix.6105:

Fay.2357:

Problem: Thief kills power shatter Mesmer

Solution 1: Have team peel thief.

Problem 2: PuGs don’t peel thieves.

Solution 2: Play a build that doesn’t get killed by thieves.

Problem 3a: Counter thieves, but introduce other problems because your build is less effective in other ways

Instead…

Solution 2: Learn to play against thieves more intelligently, instead of sacrificing other utility/effectiveness to counter them

Problem 3b: Still get killed by thieves, but at a lesser rate, and without sacrificing the advantages power shatter has over other builds

You prefer 3a, I prefer 3b. I think we just need to agree to disagree on this one.

Your argument also presume only two scenarios
1) Power Shatter which should be played as is meta – just git gud!
2) All alternates might beat thieves but are bad overall for all time – for all time! ~ Kanya West

Overlooking the reality that
3) Build options that’re both strong against thieves and strong overall for the rest of the match, for the team, for the non torny 5 man premade team “meta”.

Just sayin.

Sebrent.3625:

If the Thief is downing you, it doesn’t matter how much “less useful” you make him due to it “taking more time” or “costing more initiative” … he is winning those encounters and thus giving his team an advantage.

• He scored points for his team by taking you out
• You will have more time wasted respawning and running back to the action than he will regenerating his initiative.

Those “small victories” aren’t enough to make up for these “bigger victories” that the Thief is gaining throughout the match.

Very true, but the idea is that by running power shatter, you’ll help your teammates score more of those “bigger victories” overall…you accept a weakness to thieves for the greater good.

Perhaps because the thief took longer to kill you, he didn’t +1 a fight somewhere else, so your team won that fight and capped the node. That’s far more valuable than 5 points!

Anyhow, at least now we’re thinking in terms of a match instead of a 1v1!

Fay.2357:

Try something that’s not power shatter.

PU condie, maim shatter, lockdown, and phantasm builds all are able to handle thieves far more effectively than power shatter.

^^

This. Keep in mind that not all thieves are the same. Your build may completely destroy some thieves while be almost ineffective vs. other thieves, but basically PU + whatever variant, except zerker / shatter.

Personally I liked running semi-tanky PU sword/focus / staff and used phantasms over clones, so he point was to keep them up, rather then shatter. This was fairly effective vs most thieves in 1 v 1 situations, but there were some thief builds which would still do well against me.

It really comes down to personal experience and no point in arguing any more.

You choose a build you enjoy playing the most and get good at it. If people feel themselves that they can play well with IP shatter build in solo queue, why persuading them to change?

cyyrix.6105:

Very true, but the idea is that by running power shatter, you’ll help your teammates score more of those “bigger victories” overall…you accept a weakness to thieves for the greater good.

Perhaps because the thief took longer to kill you, he didn’t +1 a fight somewhere else, so your team won that fight and capped the node. That’s far more valuable than 5 points!

Anyhow, at least now we’re thinking in terms of a match instead of a 1v1!

Nobody was every talking about a 1v1, you just decided to try and derail a conversation with that accusation.

Regardless, you’re failing to consider the comparative roles of a thief and mesmer on a team, so let’s take a look.

Mesmer: Aoe burst damage + finisher + boon stripping in team fights. Provides a significant amount of general team fight pressure.

Thief: Remove the enemy glass cannon from a team fight.

When you’re dealing with the thief, the thief is actually performing precisely the role that they’re on the team to do, while you’re contributing literally nothing. This is specifically the reason why the thief is such a hard counter to mesmer. Taking out mesmer IS the thief role, and in the process of fulfilling their role, they directly inhibit the mesmer from performing in the singular fashion that they’re on the team for.

Photinous.4628:

Honestly, how do mesmers survive in pug matches when there is an opposing good thief? Of course no pug team will peel for the mesmer. I feel like any time there is a good thief around, the game is basically a 5v4 since it only takes seconds for a thief to kill me. Maybe it’s a l2p issue, but please help me out if it is.

There is a lot of good resources out there on the interwebs that can help you to not only improve on mesmer in pvp, but you overall pvp skill. Unfortunately, you aren’t going to get much in the way of good advice on mesmer on this forum as its been over-run by a couple of very vocal players that are going to upsell you over and over on condi shatter, pu builds, and lockdown. While these builds do have their own unique set of strengths and weaknesses, overall they are not the best fit for pvp at this time. Perhaps, in the future those builds may find their place or even become dominate, but until then you are best to stick with the strongest build currently (goes for any class you play) to remove that hurdle from the equation.

Start here for builds: http://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki
- not only for your build, but look up others that you are going to be fighting against to get a brief overview of your opponents strengths and weaknesses as well
- also note that their are two types of thieves you will be facing: predominantly d/p which packs big burst damage, and the s/d thief which applies sustained pressure

Watch and seek to emulate the best players
- Helseth streams pretty steady. Check him out here: http://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth
- not only will you see how he mechanically plays (he talks the entire time about what skill he’s dodging, what cd’s he’s baiting or baited, how he’s gonna burst this etc etc) but also how he strategically plays. To be effective as a roamer you want to be at the right place at the right time, so watch what fights he engages and which he bails out of, which fights he +1s, where does he position in team fights etc etc. There is lots to to learn from watching his stream. It’s also very applicable to your situation as Helseth predominantly does soloq.
- Another option is SupCutie http://www.twitch.tv/hansawesome (plays thief and mes)

Up your mechanics game
- the two best ways to do this are
a) to play loads of games on mesmer on a single build as well as duel against specific classes over and over until you learn what their common skill rotations are, get a rough feel for their cooldowns, what animation/tells to look for, what their weaknesses and strengths are. If you are going to duel someone to improve against that class, preferentially find someone who you can get in comms and talk with so you can quickly learn from you mistakes and get feedback/tips AND find the best person on that class you can find who will duel you.
b) multi-class and log time on the class and build you are having trouble facing. If you are struggling against a d/p thief log some hours in pvp on one. learn the skils, the cooldowns, when you are weak or what you are weak against, so when you face this build again on your mesmer you want to try to engage on terms where your mesmer has the best chance for success. Success may be surprise bursting from stealth on the thief, using your teams AoE spray to peel for yourself, use of terrain that cannot be blinked to buy time for your cds and/or kite, etc.

Some good resources to check out as a start:
Good pvp guides and general info – http://qqmore.net/
Helseth’s guide to kiting – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkkgL1cPJYM
Backpack’s guides to pvp on his youtube channel
- Beginner tutorial – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaGUfkL5kWw
- How to teamfight – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z-k9OMpJOY
- Rotations – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvPb2jY19oU
SupCutie’s pvp shatter guide (old but still pretty good info) – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Supcutie-s-Comprehensive-PvP-Shatter-Guide/first

In close, again I want to reiterate, you are best to head elsewhere to educate yourself when it comes to mesmer pvp play. I strongly recommend checking out good players actually playing pvp. These forums are not a good place to get tips or advice related to mesmer pvp play unfortunately.

Good luck to you out there fella. Cya in queue.

Naix.8156:

…

…

Best advice so far, i didn’t have time to write this so props to you!

For OP:
Pair this up with some mechanical advice from some players, and you’re good to go. Forums are more a place to find links, videos, guides than actual solid advice.

i main PU because i like handing over the cap