Guild Wars 2

Fay.2357:

cyyrix.6105:

Very true, but the idea is that by running power shatter, you’ll help your teammates score more of those “bigger victories” overall…you accept a weakness to thieves for the greater good.

Perhaps because the thief took longer to kill you, he didn’t +1 a fight somewhere else, so your team won that fight and capped the node. That’s far more valuable than 5 points!

Anyhow, at least now we’re thinking in terms of a match instead of a 1v1!

Nobody was every talking about a 1v1, you just decided to try and derail a conversation with that accusation.

Regardless, you’re failing to consider the comparative roles of a thief and mesmer on a team, so let’s take a look.

Mesmer: Aoe burst damage + finisher + boon stripping in team fights. Provides a significant amount of general team fight pressure.

Thief: Remove the enemy glass cannon from a team fight.

When you’re dealing with the thief, the thief is actually performing precisely the role that they’re on the team to do, while you’re contributing literally nothing. This is specifically the reason why the thief is such a hard counter to mesmer. Taking out mesmer IS the thief role, and in the process of fulfilling their role, they directly inhibit the mesmer from performing in the singular fashion that they’re on the team for.

You’re understating the role of the thief, but I get that you’re just trying to pick a fight with me at this point. It feels like I’m in the print version of Mesmerized, where you interrupted your co-hosts incessantly, pointing out errors in their analysis instead of trying to build a conversation. I’ll see myself out now.

Ross Biddle.2367:

The wall was better. The wall took the time to turn me on and get me all hot and steamy. The wall contained so much great foreplay.

Eww now you’re getting creepy Ross!

cyyrix.6105:

Sebrent.3625:

If the Thief is downing you, it doesn’t matter how much “less useful” you make him due to it “taking more time” or “costing more initiative” … he is winning those encounters and thus giving his team an advantage.

• He scored points for his team by taking you out
• You will have more time wasted respawning and running back to the action than he will regenerating his initiative.

Those “small victories” aren’t enough to make up for these “bigger victories” that the Thief is gaining throughout the match.

Very true, but the idea is that by running power shatter, you’ll help your teammates score more of those “bigger victories” overall…you accept a weakness to thieves for the greater good.

Perhaps because the thief took longer to kill you, he didn’t +1 a fight somewhere else, so your team won that fight and capped the node. That’s far more valuable than 5 points!

Anyhow, at least now we’re thinking in terms of a match instead of a 1v1!

That’s all great in theory, but here are some issues:

• The Thief is able to do the same +1 … so that balances out what is happening when you +1 elsewhere.
• The Thief is more mobile than you in most scenarios … so now they are able to +1 more.
• As you’ve admitted, the Mesmer intersecting with the Thief is an advantage to the Thief’s team

So you have the Thief either beating the Mesmer directly in combat or indirectly by being able to +1 faster via their superior mobility.

I wish they’d at least look at mesmer finishers (no real blast finisher, the self combo leap finishers are pretty crappy as well) and made ethereal fields……better.

Fay.2357:

cyyrix.6105:

Very true, but the idea is that by running power shatter, you’ll help your teammates score more of those “bigger victories” overall…you accept a weakness to thieves for the greater good.

Perhaps because the thief took longer to kill you, he didn’t +1 a fight somewhere else, so your team won that fight and capped the node. That’s far more valuable than 5 points!

Anyhow, at least now we’re thinking in terms of a match instead of a 1v1!

Nobody was every talking about a 1v1, you just decided to try and derail a conversation with that accusation.

Regardless, you’re failing to consider the comparative roles of a thief and mesmer on a team, so let’s take a look.

Mesmer: Aoe burst damage + finisher + boon stripping in team fights. Provides a significant amount of general team fight pressure.

Thief: Remove the enemy glass cannon from a team fight.

When you’re dealing with the thief, the thief is actually performing precisely the role that they’re on the team to do, while you’re contributing literally nothing. This is specifically the reason why the thief is such a hard counter to mesmer. Taking out mesmer IS the thief role, and in the process of fulfilling their role, they directly inhibit the mesmer from performing in the singular fashion that they’re on the team for.

If we are talking pvp, 1v1 where the rest of both teams are elsewhere, I’d say its a wash; if the thief is hammering on me, then he isn’t hammering on a team mate.

And if I can beat him, even better. I’ve beaten my fair share of thieves, though its not a 100% record by any chance either.

Haha, just remembered this time I kittened off a thief just because I was playing condi shatter. He was one of those that beat me first pass, but after that, he CAMPED the spawn pt just to take me out over and over. Got me the second, I got him third and fourth, etc.

Ended up being a 4v4 match with him and I soloing each other entire game, just because he apparently really hated mesmer condi shatter. Not much I could do about it, even when I won he came after me as soon as he respawned, so… yeah.

Morfedel, it’s now about “can you beat a Thief”. It’s about “can you beat an equal (or better) skilled Thief?” as that is going to be the challenge in team game.

If you can’t, then there is really no reason for your team to have you as you’re a liability. As I previously stated, a Thief can already +1 faster than you due to greater mobility.

So, if you can’t when the encounters over the Thief, you aren’t providing any advantage.

Your team can still win, but the advantage won’t be coming from you. You are thief bait which makes you a liability and puts them at a disadvantage that the other 4 members have to now make up for.

Sebrent.3625:

Morfedel, it’s now about “can you beat a Thief”. It’s about “can you beat an equal (or better) skilled Thief?” as that is going to be the challenge in team game.

If you can’t, then there is really no reason for your team to have you as you’re a liability. As I previously stated, a Thief can already +1 faster than you due to greater mobility.

So, if you can’t when the encounters over the Thief, you aren’t providing any advantage.

Your team can still win, but the advantage won’t be coming from you. You are thief bait which makes you a liability and puts them at a disadvantage that the other 4 members have to now make up for.

Exactly and why are people still not seeing this in the thread?

Sebrent.3625:

Morfedel, it’s now about “can you beat a Thief”. It’s about “can you beat an equal (or better) skilled Thief?” as that is going to be the challenge in team game.

If you can’t, then there is really no reason for your team to have you as you’re a liability. As I previously stated, a Thief can already +1 faster than you due to greater mobility.

So, if you can’t when the encounters over the Thief, you aren’t providing any advantage.

Your team can still win, but the advantage won’t be coming from you. You are thief bait which makes you a liability and puts them at a disadvantage that the other 4 members have to now make up for.

exactly.

If the trait revamp and specialization is not able to balance this issue, Mesmers will NEVER be meta in PvP going forward, because thieves will always be part of team in 5 vs. 5 composition.

These thread. Op was simply asking how to counter thieves and it turns into this again. I have to disagree couple things about comments that some people made above, that is, if you are playing glassy power build and you encounter a thief, one way to deal with is to disengage from the thief. While this is perfectly fine in wvw as I used to do a lot when outnumered. Just disengage, wait till the numbers are few, turn around, and engage one by one. But this isn’t obviously the way you want to play in pvp. You can’t disengage while rest of your teammates are fighting even disengage momentarily your team will be outnumbered for a short while. I don’t remember how many glassy Mesmer has discouraged me doing this but power shatter I guess tends to do this a lot while I was there fighting. Of course the opposite is also true. If I see a squishy Mesmer on enemy side, just shove couple times, not necessarily down him, then he’ll disengage and I just stay and cap, but if I see this from my team, it’s a bit discouraging.

Other thing is that it’s hard to compare builds in pvp. We can easily compare builds in other game modes like dueling for example, the build that wins a lot is superior. but in conquest mode, each build whether tanky condition, or power shatter, lockdown, or something, each build contributes little differently from one another. Condition build brings greater survivability allows you to stay fight whereas power build brings burst. I have no problem with power shatter so long as they can stay alive and fight, not disengaging.

To op, if you like power shatter , then you should play it, but try practicing in pvp without using any utility skills first and see if you can survive long. If you find yourself dying or disengaging too often, try more defensive runes or knight amulet. I’ve seen someone with knight amulet but still deal reasonable dps as well. If not working, then try condition builds. Not sure op is still following the thread, but anyway.

From my experience, the only time you’re really gonna feel like you have an advantage over(if not equal to that of) thieves since the beginning of the fight is when you run sustain/condi/stealth builds.

You can win thieves with power shatter and phant. But it’s gonna be an uphill battle.

And tbh, I feel like power shatter is more of a team dps support not direct 1vs1 scenario (which thief is good for). So often times I would backaway and get in when everyone is being distracted. And if a thief chases me, I would get nearer to my team just to make it harder for the thief or simply back out completely and look for another opportunity. I’m not saying it’s impossible but think about it, you have like 1 sec invul (you can go for 4 but then you might lose your offense), 1 blink, and maybe one or two stealths. Your offense is a slow walking nuke that could be killed with 10 sec CD. A thief can recharge its setup for backstab in 4-5 seconds with plethora of disengage and fail safes.

Think about the odds of winning.

Anet seems to do a good job of removing holy trinity but the game still largely falls into the loop of A wins B wins C wins D wins A with occasional E winning everything and so on.

knkasa.2608:

These thread. Op was simply asking how to counter thieves and it turns into this again. I have to disagree couple things about comments that some people made above, that is, if you are playing glassy power build and you encounter a thief, one way to deal with is to disengage from the thief. While this is perfectly fine in wvw as I used to do a lot when outnumered. Just disengage, wait till the numbers are few, turn around, and engage one by one. But this isn’t obviously the way you want to play in pvp. You can’t disengage while rest of your teammates are fighting even disengage momentarily your team will be outnumbered for a short while. I don’t remember how many glassy Mesmer has discouraged me doing this but power shatter I guess tends to do this a lot while I was there fighting. Of course the opposite is also true. If I see a squishy Mesmer on enemy side, just shove couple times, not necessarily down him, then he’ll disengage and I just stay and cap, but if I see this from my team, it’s a bit discouraging.

Other thing is that it’s hard to compare builds in pvp. We can easily compare builds in other game modes like dueling for example, the build that wins a lot is superior. but in conquest mode, each build whether tanky condition, or power shatter, lockdown, or something, each build contributes little differently from one another. Condition build brings greater survivability allows you to stay fight whereas power build brings burst. I have no problem with power shatter so long as they can stay alive and fight, not disengaging.

To op, if you like power shatter , then you should play it, but try practicing in pvp without using any utility skills first and see if you can survive long. If you find yourself dying or disengaging too often, try more defensive runes or knight amulet. I’ve seen someone with knight amulet but still deal reasonable dps as well. If not working, then try condition builds. Not sure op is still following the thread, but anyway.

Practicing using less survival skills (utilities) is a good suggestion. I personally like to play without Chest and Leg armor and i always duel with 2 utilities (blink, decoy) and no elite.

Sebrent.3625:

Morfedel, it’s now about “can you beat a Thief”. It’s about “can you beat an equal (or better) skilled Thief?” as that is going to be the challenge in team game.

If you can’t, then there is really no reason for your team to have you as you’re a liability. As I previously stated, a Thief can already +1 faster than you due to greater mobility.

So, if you can’t when the encounters over the Thief, you aren’t providing any advantage.

Your team can still win, but the advantage won’t be coming from you. You are thief bait which makes you a liability and puts them at a disadvantage that the other 4 members have to now make up for.

First of all, I also stated I’ve beaten more thieves than I’ve lost to. But if you mean it isn’t an advantage if the thief is busy with me the entire time? Frankly, I think its neither an advantage nor a disadvantage, but rather a wash. Any time he spends with you is time he isnt spending on someone else, and if you two are locking horns for some time, like I said, it turns a 5v5 to a 4v4.

Clearly, though, victory would be more important, because otherwise, while you are keeping him busy, he’s also keeping you busy, and neither are contributing then in any real way.

Every shatter mesmer runs into this eventually; anyone who tells you to switch your build is not helping; we don’t need buffs, nerfs, or patches. Just adapt to the current meta. Here’s some tips I’ve picked up along the way.

Interrupt their stealths.
Remember they still take damage in stealth, so keep the pressure up.
When you see the SR pop, they’re on tilt. Go for the throat. Knock them out with GS 5 and finish them.
Camp Staff 5. Keep Chaos Armor up by leaping through that field, and then Staff 4 when it drops.
Phase Retreat can save your life.
Put your finger on your Shatter 3 button when you see them coming to prepare to interrupt their burst.
They are afraid of your spike. Hit them with Cry of Frustration first to suss out their CDs.
Make Mind Wrack count.
When you beat them, say something ridiculous like, “OH kitten I BEAT A THIEF, MOM GET THE CAMERA!”

S/D and D/P Thief are 10 – 0 winners in this matchup, but most thieves crutch stealth. Smart interrupts can win the fight. Use your teammates to help peel. Moa thieves, and never feel bad about it.

Morfedel.4165:

Sebrent.3625:

Morfedel, it’s now about “can you beat a Thief”. It’s about “can you beat an equal (or better) skilled Thief?” as that is going to be the challenge in team game.

If you can’t, then there is really no reason for your team to have you as you’re a liability. As I previously stated, a Thief can already +1 faster than you due to greater mobility.

So, if you can’t when the encounters over the Thief, you aren’t providing any advantage.

Your team can still win, but the advantage won’t be coming from you. You are thief bait which makes you a liability and puts them at a disadvantage that the other 4 members have to now make up for.

First of all, I also stated I’ve beaten more thieves than I’ve lost to. But if you mean it isn’t an advantage if the thief is busy with me the entire time? Frankly, I think its neither an advantage nor a disadvantage, but rather a wash. Any time he spends with you is time he isnt spending on someone else, and if you two are locking horns for some time, like I said, it turns a 5v5 to a 4v4.

This is ignoring the different roles of thief and mesmer. I elaborated on this in an earlier post, but I’ll go over it again quickly.

The primary role of the mesmer is to deal heavy aoe damage in a teamfight. The primary role of a thief is to take out the enemy glass cannons.

When you’re embroiled in a 1v1 with a thief, the thief is performing his role on the team, and you are not.

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

Sebrent.3625:

Morfedel, it’s now about “can you beat a Thief”. It’s about “can you beat an equal (or better) skilled Thief?” as that is going to be the challenge in team game.

If you can’t, then there is really no reason for your team to have you as you’re a liability. As I previously stated, a Thief can already +1 faster than you due to greater mobility.

So, if you can’t when the encounters over the Thief, you aren’t providing any advantage.

Your team can still win, but the advantage won’t be coming from you. You are thief bait which makes you a liability and puts them at a disadvantage that the other 4 members have to now make up for.

First of all, I also stated I’ve beaten more thieves than I’ve lost to. But if you mean it isn’t an advantage if the thief is busy with me the entire time? Frankly, I think its neither an advantage nor a disadvantage, but rather a wash. Any time he spends with you is time he isnt spending on someone else, and if you two are locking horns for some time, like I said, it turns a 5v5 to a 4v4.

This is ignoring the different roles of thief and mesmer. I elaborated on this in an earlier post, but I’ll go over it again quickly.

The primary role of the mesmer is to deal heavy aoe damage in a teamfight. The primary role of a thief is to take out the enemy glass cannons.

When you’re embroiled in a 1v1 with a thief, the thief is performing his role on the team, and you are not.

This is true, if he kills you. If he doesn’t, then the opposite team are losing out on the many advantages of the thief, for example the ability to quickly decap.

Quadox.7834:

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

Sebrent.3625:

Morfedel, it’s now about “can you beat a Thief”. It’s about “can you beat an equal (or better) skilled Thief?” as that is going to be the challenge in team game.

If you can’t, then there is really no reason for your team to have you as you’re a liability. As I previously stated, a Thief can already +1 faster than you due to greater mobility.

So, if you can’t when the encounters over the Thief, you aren’t providing any advantage.

Your team can still win, but the advantage won’t be coming from you. You are thief bait which makes you a liability and puts them at a disadvantage that the other 4 members have to now make up for.

First of all, I also stated I’ve beaten more thieves than I’ve lost to. But if you mean it isn’t an advantage if the thief is busy with me the entire time? Frankly, I think its neither an advantage nor a disadvantage, but rather a wash. Any time he spends with you is time he isnt spending on someone else, and if you two are locking horns for some time, like I said, it turns a 5v5 to a 4v4.

This is ignoring the different roles of thief and mesmer. I elaborated on this in an earlier post, but I’ll go over it again quickly.

The primary role of the mesmer is to deal heavy aoe damage in a teamfight. The primary role of a thief is to take out the enemy glass cannons.

When you’re embroiled in a 1v1 with a thief, the thief is performing his role on the team, and you are not.

This is true, if he kills you. If he doesn’t, then the opposite team are losing out on the many advantages of the thief, for example the ability to quickly decap.

Not entirely. Half the advice in this thread has been to run really far away from a thief to stop him from killing you. If you do that, the thief could decap a point and be back to mid before you’ve healed up and gotten back in position.

Fay.2357:

Quadox.7834:

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

Sebrent.3625:

Morfedel, it’s now about “can you beat a Thief”. It’s about “can you beat an equal (or better) skilled Thief?” as that is going to be the challenge in team game.

If you can’t, then there is really no reason for your team to have you as you’re a liability. As I previously stated, a Thief can already +1 faster than you due to greater mobility.

So, if you can’t when the encounters over the Thief, you aren’t providing any advantage.

Your team can still win, but the advantage won’t be coming from you. You are thief bait which makes you a liability and puts them at a disadvantage that the other 4 members have to now make up for.

First of all, I also stated I’ve beaten more thieves than I’ve lost to. But if you mean it isn’t an advantage if the thief is busy with me the entire time? Frankly, I think its neither an advantage nor a disadvantage, but rather a wash. Any time he spends with you is time he isnt spending on someone else, and if you two are locking horns for some time, like I said, it turns a 5v5 to a 4v4.

This is ignoring the different roles of thief and mesmer. I elaborated on this in an earlier post, but I’ll go over it again quickly.

The primary role of the mesmer is to deal heavy aoe damage in a teamfight. The primary role of a thief is to take out the enemy glass cannons.

When you’re embroiled in a 1v1 with a thief, the thief is performing his role on the team, and you are not.

This is true, if he kills you. If he doesn’t, then the opposite team are losing out on the many advantages of the thief, for example the ability to quickly decap.

Not entirely. Half the advice in this thread has been to run really far away from a thief to stop him from killing you. If you do that, the thief could decap a point and be back to mid before you’ve healed up and gotten back in position.

That wasn’t advice by me. I advocate fighting and killing the thief. I win more than I lose against one in pvp. Nowhere near 100%, but more than 50%.

And to answer to his role vs mine, honestly, who gives a kitten? If he’s concentrating on me he cant hurt the rest of my team, nor can he run around speed decapping, nor can he, for example, go after our ele or whatever.

And there’s a decent chance i’ll win.

So frankly I just don’t buy that “you aren’t playing your role but he is” bs. For all intents and purposes, its turning the fight into a 4v4, meaning we are both neutered while the other 4 on each team determine who the victor will be.

And frankly I neither buy nor CARE about the “your roll is x his roll is y” crap. Its not how its played out in the pvp games I’ve been in. Its all baseless.

Quadox.7834:

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

Sebrent.3625:

Morfedel, it’s now about “can you beat a Thief”. It’s about “can you beat an equal (or better) skilled Thief?” as that is going to be the challenge in team game.

If you can’t, then there is really no reason for your team to have you as you’re a liability. As I previously stated, a Thief can already +1 faster than you due to greater mobility.

So, if you can’t when the encounters over the Thief, you aren’t providing any advantage.

Your team can still win, but the advantage won’t be coming from you. You are thief bait which makes you a liability and puts them at a disadvantage that the other 4 members have to now make up for.

First of all, I also stated I’ve beaten more thieves than I’ve lost to. But if you mean it isn’t an advantage if the thief is busy with me the entire time? Frankly, I think its neither an advantage nor a disadvantage, but rather a wash. Any time he spends with you is time he isnt spending on someone else, and if you two are locking horns for some time, like I said, it turns a 5v5 to a 4v4.

This is ignoring the different roles of thief and mesmer. I elaborated on this in an earlier post, but I’ll go over it again quickly.

The primary role of the mesmer is to deal heavy aoe damage in a teamfight. The primary role of a thief is to take out the enemy glass cannons.

When you’re embroiled in a 1v1 with a thief, the thief is performing his role on the team, and you are not.

This is true, if he kills you. If he doesn’t, then the opposite team are losing out on the many advantages of the thief, for example the ability to quickly decap.

This.

Morfedel.4165:

So frankly I just don’t buy that “you aren’t playing your role but he is” bs. For all intents and purposes, its turning the fight into a 4v4, meaning we are both neutered while the other 4 on each team determine who the victor will be.

And frankly I neither buy nor CARE about the “your roll is x his roll is y” crap. Its not how its played out in the pvp games I’ve been in. Its all baseless.

Heh. I’m not exactly asking you to ‘buy into’ what role classes/builds play in team fights. I’m telling you how it works. You can disagree if you want, but that doesn’t make my statements less correct.

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

So frankly I just don’t buy that “you aren’t playing your role but he is” bs. For all intents and purposes, its turning the fight into a 4v4, meaning we are both neutered while the other 4 on each team determine who the victor will be.

And frankly I neither buy nor CARE about the “your roll is x his roll is y” crap. Its not how its played out in the pvp games I’ve been in. Its all baseless.

Heh. I’m not exactly asking you to ‘buy into’ what role classes/builds play in team fights. I’m telling you how it works. You can disagree if you want, but that doesn’t make my statements less correct.

Nor does it make what you say any MORE correct. Saying something is not the same thing as proving something.

Feel free to believe your statement is correct all you want. Unless you can PROVE it, its really baseless, and thus making it your theory, not a fact you’ve proven.

In other words, theorycrafting. You say the thief is doing his job. I say we are neutralizing each other. Either way, you CANNOT argue that what happens is it turns the game into a 4v4 from a 5v5. And that IS fact.

Not that it matters. I really had that problem of constant thief fighting exactly one time, ever. Every other time ever one or the other has won.. and more than half the time the victor has been me. So… shrug

Morfedel.4165:

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

So frankly I just don’t buy that “you aren’t playing your role but he is” bs. For all intents and purposes, its turning the fight into a 4v4, meaning we are both neutered while the other 4 on each team determine who the victor will be.

And frankly I neither buy nor CARE about the “your roll is x his roll is y” crap. Its not how its played out in the pvp games I’ve been in. Its all baseless.

Heh. I’m not exactly asking you to ‘buy into’ what role classes/builds play in team fights. I’m telling you how it works. You can disagree if you want, but that doesn’t make my statements less correct.

Nor does it make what you say any MORE correct. Saying something is not the same thing as proving something.

Feel free to believe your statement is correct all you want. Unless you can PROVE it, its really baseless, and thus making it your theory, not a fact you’ve proven.

In other words, theorycrafting. You say the thief is doing his job. I say we are neutralizing each other. Either way, you CANNOT argue that what happens is it turns the game into a 4v4 from a 5v5. And that IS fact.

Not that it matters. I really had that problem of constant thief fighting exactly one time, ever. Every other time ever one or the other has won.. and more than half the time the victor has been me. So… shrug

The proof of what I’m saying is in literally every tournament match ever, just watch some.

The thief does 2 primary things. They target the enemy glass cannons to remove them from team fights. They also utilize their high mobility to decap points.

Mesmer does 2 primary things as well. They use portal to help ferry their team from one fight to the next, and they provide heavy aoe pressure in team fights.

And I’ll say it for…the third time I think. When a thief jumps on you, the thief is doing exactly what they’re on the team to do, the rest of their team depends on them to jump on you. You, however, are not doing what the rest of your team depends on you to do. Your team is depending on you to provide heavy aoe pressure, not duel a thief. The thief is doing what they’re supposed to do, you’re not.

It may be a 4v4, but your team is relying on you to help out due to how they’ve built the comp, and the thief’s team is relying on them to take you out, due to how they’ve built their comp.

Those who say “Well, at least the enemy team is losing out on the many awesome super duper advantages of a thief” should instead say “Play a thief rather than the mesmer”.

Because I do not want my only purpose to be cannon fodder for someone else only so that “they’ll be occupied for the rest of the match”. What do you think I am?

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

So frankly I just don’t buy that “you aren’t playing your role but he is” bs. For all intents and purposes, its turning the fight into a 4v4, meaning we are both neutered while the other 4 on each team determine who the victor will be.

And frankly I neither buy nor CARE about the “your roll is x his roll is y” crap. Its not how its played out in the pvp games I’ve been in. Its all baseless.

Heh. I’m not exactly asking you to ‘buy into’ what role classes/builds play in team fights. I’m telling you how it works. You can disagree if you want, but that doesn’t make my statements less correct.

Nor does it make what you say any MORE correct. Saying something is not the same thing as proving something.

Feel free to believe your statement is correct all you want. Unless you can PROVE it, its really baseless, and thus making it your theory, not a fact you’ve proven.

In other words, theorycrafting. You say the thief is doing his job. I say we are neutralizing each other. Either way, you CANNOT argue that what happens is it turns the game into a 4v4 from a 5v5. And that IS fact.

Not that it matters. I really had that problem of constant thief fighting exactly one time, ever. Every other time ever one or the other has won.. and more than half the time the victor has been me. So… shrug

The proof of what I’m saying is in literally every tournament match ever, just watch some.

The thief does 2 primary things. They target the enemy glass cannons to remove them from team fights. They also utilize their high mobility to decap points.

Mesmer does 2 primary things as well. They use portal to help ferry their team from one fight to the next, and they provide heavy aoe pressure in team fights.

And I’ll say it for…the third time I think. When a thief jumps on you, the thief is doing exactly what they’re on the team to do, the rest of their team depends on them to jump on you. You, however, are not doing what the rest of your team depends on you to do. Your team is depending on you to provide heavy aoe pressure, not duel a thief. The thief is doing what they’re supposed to do, you’re not.

It may be a 4v4, but your team is relying on you to help out due to how they’ve built the comp, and the thief’s team is relying on them to take you out, due to how they’ve built their comp.

You say the primary role of the thief is to take out the enemy glass cannon (mesmer, in this case). If the thief doesn’t kill the mesmer, or if the mesmer even kills the thief, the thief isn’t doing his job at all. His job is to kill key targets, he dies doing so. Since Morfedel claims he wins more than 50% of his duels versus thieves, there is no problem here. Im not saying it is smart to try duel the thieves on normal conditions or anything like it, i just had to explain why this “role” thing doesn’t apply to a case where morfedel wins.

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

So frankly I just don’t buy that “you aren’t playing your role but he is” bs. For all intents and purposes, its turning the fight into a 4v4, meaning we are both neutered while the other 4 on each team determine who the victor will be.

And frankly I neither buy nor CARE about the “your roll is x his roll is y” crap. Its not how its played out in the pvp games I’ve been in. Its all baseless.

Heh. I’m not exactly asking you to ‘buy into’ what role classes/builds play in team fights. I’m telling you how it works. You can disagree if you want, but that doesn’t make my statements less correct.

Nor does it make what you say any MORE correct. Saying something is not the same thing as proving something.

Feel free to believe your statement is correct all you want. Unless you can PROVE it, its really baseless, and thus making it your theory, not a fact you’ve proven.

In other words, theorycrafting. You say the thief is doing his job. I say we are neutralizing each other. Either way, you CANNOT argue that what happens is it turns the game into a 4v4 from a 5v5. And that IS fact.

Not that it matters. I really had that problem of constant thief fighting exactly one time, ever. Every other time ever one or the other has won.. and more than half the time the victor has been me. So… shrug

The proof of what I’m saying is in literally every tournament match ever, just watch some.

The thief does 2 primary things. They target the enemy glass cannons to remove them from team fights. They also utilize their high mobility to decap points.

Mesmer does 2 primary things as well. They use portal to help ferry their team from one fight to the next, and they provide heavy aoe pressure in team fights.

And I’ll say it for…the third time I think. When a thief jumps on you, the thief is doing exactly what they’re on the team to do, the rest of their team depends on them to jump on you. You, however, are not doing what the rest of your team depends on you to do. Your team is depending on you to provide heavy aoe pressure, not duel a thief. The thief is doing what they’re supposed to do, you’re not.

It may be a 4v4, but your team is relying on you to help out due to how they’ve built the comp, and the thief’s team is relying on them to take you out, due to how they’ve built their comp.

So a stunlock mes has the same role as a shatter mes? Must be nice to put all builds under the same umbrella.

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

So frankly I just don’t buy that “you aren’t playing your role but he is” bs. For all intents and purposes, its turning the fight into a 4v4, meaning we are both neutered while the other 4 on each team determine who the victor will be.

And frankly I neither buy nor CARE about the “your roll is x his roll is y” crap. Its not how its played out in the pvp games I’ve been in. Its all baseless.

Heh. I’m not exactly asking you to ‘buy into’ what role classes/builds play in team fights. I’m telling you how it works. You can disagree if you want, but that doesn’t make my statements less correct.

Nor does it make what you say any MORE correct. Saying something is not the same thing as proving something.

Feel free to believe your statement is correct all you want. Unless you can PROVE it, its really baseless, and thus making it your theory, not a fact you’ve proven.

In other words, theorycrafting. You say the thief is doing his job. I say we are neutralizing each other. Either way, you CANNOT argue that what happens is it turns the game into a 4v4 from a 5v5. And that IS fact.

Not that it matters. I really had that problem of constant thief fighting exactly one time, ever. Every other time ever one or the other has won.. and more than half the time the victor has been me. So… shrug

The proof of what I’m saying is in literally every tournament match ever, just watch some.

The thief does 2 primary things. They target the enemy glass cannons to remove them from team fights. They also utilize their high mobility to decap points.

Mesmer does 2 primary things as well. They use portal to help ferry their team from one fight to the next, and they provide heavy aoe pressure in team fights.

And I’ll say it for…the third time I think. When a thief jumps on you, the thief is doing exactly what they’re on the team to do, the rest of their team depends on them to jump on you. You, however, are not doing what the rest of your team depends on you to do. Your team is depending on you to provide heavy aoe pressure, not duel a thief. The thief is doing what they’re supposed to do, you’re not.

It may be a 4v4, but your team is relying on you to help out due to how they’ve built the comp, and the thief’s team is relying on them to take you out, due to how they’ve built their comp.

Oh and, side note here, not all pvp matches are tournaments with organized teams. shrug but I forget, just like with other parts of the game, there’s apparently only one true way to play. Why dont you write up a manual of badwrongfun so we can all learn the wrong way to play and play your way instead.

Quadox.7834:

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

So frankly I just don’t buy that “you aren’t playing your role but he is” bs. For all intents and purposes, its turning the fight into a 4v4, meaning we are both neutered while the other 4 on each team determine who the victor will be.

And frankly I neither buy nor CARE about the “your roll is x his roll is y” crap. Its not how its played out in the pvp games I’ve been in. Its all baseless.

Heh. I’m not exactly asking you to ‘buy into’ what role classes/builds play in team fights. I’m telling you how it works. You can disagree if you want, but that doesn’t make my statements less correct.

Nor does it make what you say any MORE correct. Saying something is not the same thing as proving something.

Feel free to believe your statement is correct all you want. Unless you can PROVE it, its really baseless, and thus making it your theory, not a fact you’ve proven.

In other words, theorycrafting. You say the thief is doing his job. I say we are neutralizing each other. Either way, you CANNOT argue that what happens is it turns the game into a 4v4 from a 5v5. And that IS fact.

Not that it matters. I really had that problem of constant thief fighting exactly one time, ever. Every other time ever one or the other has won.. and more than half the time the victor has been me. So… shrug

The proof of what I’m saying is in literally every tournament match ever, just watch some.

The thief does 2 primary things. They target the enemy glass cannons to remove them from team fights. They also utilize their high mobility to decap points.

Mesmer does 2 primary things as well. They use portal to help ferry their team from one fight to the next, and they provide heavy aoe pressure in team fights.

And I’ll say it for…the third time I think. When a thief jumps on you, the thief is doing exactly what they’re on the team to do, the rest of their team depends on them to jump on you. You, however, are not doing what the rest of your team depends on you to do. Your team is depending on you to provide heavy aoe pressure, not duel a thief. The thief is doing what they’re supposed to do, you’re not.

It may be a 4v4, but your team is relying on you to help out due to how they’ve built the comp, and the thief’s team is relying on them to take you out, due to how they’ve built their comp.

You say the primary role of the thief is to take out the enemy glass cannon (mesmer, in this case). If the thief doesn’t kill the mesmer, or if the mesmer even kills the thief, the thief isn’t doing his job at all. His job is to kill key targets, he dies doing so. Since Morfedel claims he wins more than 50% of his duels versus thieves, there is no problem here. Im not saying it is smart to try duel the thieves on normal conditions or anything like it, i just had to explain why this “role” thing doesn’t apply to a case where morfedel wins.

What bothers me is this superiority mentality being expressed: if you don’t play my way, you’re playing wrong, period. It’s arrogant and not even justified.

Every tournament ever. snort. It’s not all tournaments.

I play unranked mostly. Why? Because I love the chaos. i love not knowing what kind of team make up I’m going to end up with, and against. I love dealing with a mixed bag, where I can end up with great or crappy players on my team with the same on the other side. Heck, the most fun I ever had was when we logged on and 8 of the 10 people on both teams combined were mesmers. We all had a good laugh at that.

For the same reason, I prefer solo or small team roaming in WVW over zerg play.

So, yes, I’m well aware it isnt as hypercompetitive as tournament play is, but again, I don’t care. I have two builds that does very well against thieves. Not 100%, and obviously skill of the player also comes involved, but I’ve done very well.

Sadly, in wvw most thieves end up running, and my builds can’t prevent them from doing so, but I usually count that as a win in that case. In pvp its another matter, what with the importance of point capture and all, and many thieves will stay on target.

If we were talking strictly tournament play I might have agreed, but we never once mentioned that as the sole item we were discussing. As a matter of fact, the OP SPECIFICALLY mentioned PUG play, so Fay here went completely off the reservation with the whole “Every tournament ever” crap…

Cutting the crap and talking constructive for bit here:

To be honest with you Photinous power shatter works. It’s all about waiting for the right MB opening which spells the thief’s doom so I would suggest practising with a friend or other thieves. I don’t think asking thieves to get worse is an option but just improve your game play, as mesmers I would say we have the highest skill cap in the game, so it is really easy to f-up and look bad while the thief hits steal and “2’s” you to death then /laughs because he thinks it was skilfully played. Counters to thieves, they exist in the form of lockdown and condi, but I don’t like condi because I would not do to someone which I don’t want unto myself and lockdown, well… it’s solid but I prefer power shatter as I know where the damage is coming from

I was also in the same predicament as you sometime back, I watched some youtubers such as My Face Is Pi (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc4K1jcAgShsKwniX-dTD8g) if you shuffle through some of his/her videos you will find a good video where he/she vs’s thieves and shows you some useful tips as a shatter mesmer in wvw using GS + sw/t which is also viable in spvp in my opinion. I have learnt a lot from these videos and I would personally like to thank My Face Is Pi for them and every day I learn something different about my profession and that is why I enjoy it so much.

To sum it up with thieves you have up to three cases:

• Thief sees you first (stealth) > Mesmer unaware
• Thief sees Mesmer = Mesmer sees thief (usually the case in spvp)
• Thief unaware < Mesmer sees thief first (stealth)

Generally the fight will go the thief’s way but it can be easily turned because thieves tend to be careless against mesmer and will have fun killing you :P. Punish them for it, as it is most satisfactory landing a successful mirrorblade+F1 on a thief and having them downed in one go. Remember they have a low health trait (WvW) which throws down smoke and they are safe, follow the mirrorblade if they go down that fast to see their position and mindstab in proximity, then take out sw/t (have sigil of fire on) Helps find the darn bug, and voila. This is an ideal situation but the odds are always in the thief’s favour and will be forever. Just practise some openers similar to this and you should have it sewn up.

I don’t discount condi or lockdown which are two extremely powerful builds vs thieves situationally, but I find that knowing what thieves do, almost every single one of them, is the key to beating them because some of their combo+finishers are just too strong and can be beaten. I am not going to rant about how unfair the match up is but mesmers have good odds at winning and I think it will change in the upcoming patch with an almost “Next Gen-Shatter/Lockdown” which looks sweet so I sit here with bated breath!