Guild Wars 2

quercus.9261:

I only play WvW on my mesmer. Thieves are getting out of hand. On my server we are seeing stealth teams assigned to various objectives. They are basically unkillable. The map chat is full of complaints about unseen killers. This is as bad as DAOC archers at release (and I had a scout).
I love it how the thieves think that it is all bads with issues. Unless you devote your entire spec to surviving thieves yur gonna die from a thief. If you do go full bunker congratz you made him run away. Now go try and kill something. I suppose we can all stand together in one spot with our bunker builds and cast AoE heals while thieves run off and play the game?

Since when mesmers start to complain about thieves stealth?
Does mesmers belive that thief’s stealth can be nerfed and yours stay untouched ?
You belive that thieves are stronger that mesmers in WvW ?

/ discuss

Thieves are ridiculous. They can take you from 100 to 0 in LESS than 3 seconds. There have been times where I just look away from the monitor for like a second and then I hear that “clink” sound. Before I can even react I’m dead. However OP people might think Mesmers are, multiply it by 3 and that’s a thief. Can a mesmer beat a thief? Yes, but there is like ZERO room for error, and when you do survive his cooldowns and begin whipping his kitten he’ll stealth and run away until his cooldowns are back up.

I main a Thief, if I meet a good Mesmer, I get destroyed.

Mek.2947:

Thieves are ridiculous. They can take you from 100 to 0 in LESS than 3 seconds. There have been times where I just look away from the monitor for like a second and then I hear that “clink” sound. Before I can even react I’m dead. However OP people might think Mesmers are, multiply it by 3 and that’s a thief. Can a mesmer beat a thief? Yes, but there is like ZERO room for error, and when you do survive his cooldowns and begin whipping his kitten he’ll stealth and run away until his cooldowns are back up.

can thief touch bunker builds ?
warrior , guardian, elementarists ( no he get eated)
mesmer just destroy them
Can mesmer beat thief ? 1 vs 1 . yes all he need is to stealth on initial burst and moa the poor thief for 10 seconds.
Hope will get nerfed before x-mas

There’s a big difference between mesmer stealth and thief stealth.

Thieves can stack stealth abilities for extended durations, and shadow refuge which is basically like a 14 second stealth on 60 cd can be kepted up indefinitely with a stealth team of thieves. Even mass invisibility is an elite on 90 cd for 5 seconds of stealth; so the thieves “stealth problem” doesn’t really exist for mesmers.

Plus, mesmers don’t have backstab.

Mesmer’s can’t “eated” bunker classes. Moa is an elite skill with a large cooldown and the only people who get owned by moa are dummies who stand there and think they’ve been sheeped in WoW. Oh and here’s a hint for you about moa. It has a cast time and can be avoided!! It’s only OP against morons, and honestly they could take the skill away and I wouldn’t care. All a thief has to do is hit his F & 1-5 keys and it’s GG.

Poaches.1967:

There’s a big difference between mesmer stealth and thief stealth.
Plus, mesmers don’t have backstab.

thieves got no portal
thieves don’t make clones on hit .
thieves don’t hit from 2000 range
and we miss the moa.
I trade backstab for moa at any second .

Mek.2947:

Mesmer’s can’t “eated” bunker classes. Moa is an elite skill with a large cooldown and the only people who get owned by moa are dummies who stand there and think they’ve been sheeped in WoW. Oh and here’s a hint for you about moa. It has a cast time and can be avoided!! It’s only OP against morons, and honestly they could take the skill away and I wouldn’t care. All a thief has to do is hit his F & 1-5 keys and it’s GG.

So only dummies and morrons can be morphed intro moa, but no pro can do an V to dodge thief’s combo
ok i understand your point

Rayya.2591:

Poaches.1967:

There’s a big difference between mesmer stealth and thief stealth.
Plus, mesmers don’t have backstab.

thieves got no portal
thieves don’t make clones on hit .
thieves don’t hit from 2000 range
and we miss the moa.
I trade backstab for moa at any second .

fyi, mesmers don’t have anything over 1200.

The problem with theives atm is by the time they actually render youre boned unless you hit distortion/blink/etc

Why exactly are stuns even a problem? Mesmers have some AMAZING stun-breakers. If you aren’t running decoy or mirror images, you need to rethink your build. And not only that, but we have several teleports (phase retreat, blink) that work even while stunned or knocked down. This isn’t even an issue for a half decent mesmer.

I’m not talking specifically about mesmers. I’m talking about classes in general. Mesmers are one of the few classes in the game that can kill a thief and even then they have to work at it. I don’t think Mesmers should be equated to thiefs when determining whether they get nerfed or not.

Rayya.2591:

Poaches.1967:

There’s a big difference between mesmer stealth and thief stealth.
Plus, mesmers don’t have backstab.

thieves got no portal
thieves don’t make clones on hit .
thieves don’t hit from 2000 range
and we miss the moa.
I trade backstab for moa at any second .

Mesmers don’t have shadow step. What’s your point?

Mesmers don’t make a clone on hit except for the 3rd attack in the scepter chain. Other ways to generate clones are spread on various abilities, and through dodging if you are traited for it. Even if your claim were accurate, it doesn’t seem relevant.

Maximum range on the longest range mesmer attack is 1200, or 1500 on the pistol if trained.

Moa morph is an elite skill. Hence trading backstab for it would make no sense. I’m all for it, however. If you wanted a more appropriate trade, it would be for Basilisk Venom. Both are 10 point elites that are control oriented.

Birdrock.1697:

Rayya.2591:

Poaches.1967:

There’s a big difference between mesmer stealth and thief stealth.
Plus, mesmers don’t have backstab.

thieves got no portal
thieves don’t make clones on hit .
thieves don’t hit from 2000 range
and we miss the moa.
I trade backstab for moa at any second .

Mesmers don’t have shadow step. What’s your point?

Mesmers don’t make a clone on hit except for the 3rd attack in the scepter chain. Other ways to generate clones are spread on various abilities, and through dodging if you are traited for it. Even if your claim were accurate, it doesn’t seem relevant.

Maximum range on the longest range mesmer attack is 1200, or 1500 on the pistol if trained.

Moa morph is an elite skill. Hence trading backstab for it would make no sense. I’m all for it, however. If you wanted a more appropriate trade, it would be for Basilisk Venom. Both are 10 point elites that are control oriented.

my point was an quote to your fellow mesmer who told : mesmers don’t have
backstab.
and regarding what you told basilisk is 1.5 seconds and moa 10 seconds. Basilisk don’t destroy necro’s minnions, basilisk doesen’t take your utility bar off, basilisk don’t negate all your pasives /boons.
and yes i would trade basilisk for moa at any second.

Rayya.2591:

Birdrock.1697:

Rayya.2591:

Poaches.1967:

There’s a big difference between mesmer stealth and thief stealth.
Plus, mesmers don’t have backstab.

thieves got no portal
thieves don’t make clones on hit .
thieves don’t hit from 2000 range
and we miss the moa.
I trade backstab for moa at any second .

Mesmers don’t have shadow step. What’s your point?

Mesmers don’t make a clone on hit except for the 3rd attack in the scepter chain. Other ways to generate clones are spread on various abilities, and through dodging if you are traited for it. Even if your claim were accurate, it doesn’t seem relevant.

Maximum range on the longest range mesmer attack is 1200, or 1500 on the pistol if trained.

Moa morph is an elite skill. Hence trading backstab for it would make no sense. I’m all for it, however. If you wanted a more appropriate trade, it would be for Basilisk Venom. Both are 10 point elites that are control oriented.

my point was an quote to your fellow mesmer who told : mesmers don’t have
backstab.
and regarding what you told basilisk is 1.5 seconds and moa 10 seconds. Basilisk don’t destroy necro’s minnions, basilisk doesen’t take your utility bar off, basilisk don’t negate all your pasives /boons.
and yes i would trade basilisk for moa at any second.

Moa morph has a 180 second cool down. Basilisk Venom has a 45 second cool down. Moa morph does not remove control of the character. You can still move, attack, and sprint away. Basilisk Venom is the opposite. Moa morph can be blocked with aegis and dodged. Basilisk Venom? Not so much.

The mesmer is immobile while casting moa morph. Try using any of your escape abilities or dodging.

Here’s why an exchange of the two won’t work: thieves can burst people down really quickly. Mesmers can spec for some burst, but it requires buildup and doesn’t approach that of a thief. The only way it would work would be if it took your entire pool of initiative.

Just let anet fix the render out of stealth delay. I don’t think thieves need to be touched at all nerf wise until we see how fixing the rendering bug changes the dynamics.

@Rayya: Let’s be clear, thieves stealth is not the issue. The issue is with the renderer so that an unstealthed thief while technically targettable and vulnerable, remains invisible on your screen for several seconds after uncloaking.

The same applies for mesmers – their stealth has the exact same bug, it’s just mesmer’s have fewer stealth skills, also people tend to fail to notice because they’re too busy watching clones and not realising the real mesmer isn’t even on the screen.

Should either sets of stealth skills be nerfed? – No.
Should the engine bug be fixed – HELL YES.

Arguing about anything beyond this is comparing chalk and cheese.

Seriously, its depends on build, sure sometimes thiefs gets inta destroyed by thiefs but im kinda sire same thing in the other way aroud. I would lie if I said I never die to thiefs, but I dont have special problems with em. Last weeks I even fould that fight a realy good thief In wvwvw can both be along but same time extremly fun fight.

Yes they have backstab but we got mindwrack who can close to insta kill a thief aswell. Even in sPvP 4xmw can hit a glascannon thief for around 10k +. In wvwvw a mw alone can kill them, highest I had was 4x 34xx.

I agree on rendering thu is a prob in wvwvw, that need to be fixed.

I play a mesemer and a thief and i can say they are equally powerful and equally annoying, but in different ways. Of all the classes mesmer should complain the least about thieves, especially when it comes to stealth. Both classes suffer (or benefit) from the rendering/culling bug.

And you talk about groups of thieves using stealth coordinated. But think about this, what would you prefer to face against: 5 coordinated thieves or 5 coordinated mesmers? Think of what other classes could do when faced with such a team. It’s not pretty either way.

The stealth implementation of GW2 has some major flaws.

First of all, stealth = invisibility in GW2. A thief can disappear right in front of you and you have no chance whatsoever to see him in stealth, even if you know where he is.

Example: When you are downed and the stealthed thief stands next to you, stomping you, it’s impossible to see him.

In other games you’d see stealthed enemies at close distance, and to enter stealth you need some distance to enemies or stealth doesn’t work. GW2 stealth has none of these limitations.

Stealth in other games wouldn’t work while you have DoTs (bleedings) ticking on you. Or at least it would instantly reveal you.

Also in other games, there is usually no way to re-enter stealth during a combat. GW2 doesn’t have limitations here, thieves literally step into and out of the shadows every second. Combined with the stealth rendering bug in the graphic engine, this is VERY bad.

Last but not least, GW2 stealth lacks a counter mechanism. Remember “True Sight” in DAoC? Again, it’s a different game, but when in DAoC the stealth classes became too strong and too many, they invented an ability to ruin their day: “True Sight” revealed all stealthed chars at once. This wouldn’t work for GW2 because stealth is not a perma-stealth ability here, but imagine some way to make it impossible for a thief to re-enter stealth. That would truly mess them up.

Right now the best we can do is stack Confusion on the thief and hope he hurts himself when he enters stealth, but I was thinking more of a specific stealth counter, some “anti-stealth” ability or debuff.

I say we have a all mesmer/thief raid in wvw and really make the forums qq lol. In all seriousness, from what I can tell there are counters to just about every class and build out there, does not mean your build will have the answer to every build type nor should it, but the options are there to stop a class cold. There is always a bit of a balancing act in mmo’s in regards to defense/offense just seems to me that most everyone chooses to go glass cannon then complains when they get blown up.

@snoxx
You talk about thieves like they’re the only ones with stealth. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t like for the thieves (or other classes) to have “True sight” when you use decoy…

Snoxx.7943:

The stealth implementation of GW2 has some major flaws.

First of all, stealth = invisibility in GW2. A thief can disappear right in front of you and you have no chance whatsoever to see him in stealth, even if you know where he is.

Example: When you are downed and the stealthed thief stands next to you, stomping you, it’s impossible to see him.

In other games you’d see stealthed enemies at close distance, and to enter stealth you need some distance to enemies or stealth doesn’t work. GW2 stealth has none of these limitations.

Stealth in other games wouldn’t work while you have DoTs (bleedings) ticking on you. Or at least it would instantly reveal you.

Also in other games, there is usually no way to re-enter stealth during a combat. GW2 doesn’t have limitations here, thieves literally step into and out of the shadows every second. Combined with the stealth rendering bug in the graphic engine, this is VERY bad.

Last but not least, GW2 stealth lacks a counter mechanism. Remember “True Sight” in DAoC? Again, it’s a different game, but when in DAoC the stealth classes became too strong and too many, they invented an ability to ruin their day: “True Sight” revealed all stealthed chars at once. This wouldn’t work for GW2 because stealth is not a perma-stealth ability here, but imagine some way to make it impossible for a thief to re-enter stealth. That would truly mess them up.

Right now the best we can do is stack Confusion on the thief and hope he hurts himself when he enters stealth, but I was thinking more of a specific stealth counter, some “anti-stealth” ability or debuff.

Most of the time when a thief enters stealth they are using some skill. I don’t have a problem with the stealth in GW2 its not a implementation flaw if you don’t compare it to DOAC. Its GW2’s implementation of it not another game. I am pretty sure Anet employee’s have played said other games you mentioned and chose to implement stealth in not other games way.

@supergica:
My main is a mesmer and I use decoy all the time. It’s a great tool, I use it for distraction, to drop enemy target and make them wonder which clone is the real me. I use stealth about once per fight. A good thief on the other hand is literally invisible during the entire fight. I’m often completely unable to attack them because, you know, I can’t even cast a Phantasm without a target.

If a thief fix or stealth nerf will make my beloved Decoy useless – fine with me. This would be a small sacrifice for a better overall game balance.

@oZii:
I am fully aware that the stealth implementation in GW2 is a different approach than in other games. What I am trying to explain here is that other games made mistakes there and had a lot of trouble fixing/balancing it later. GW2 is repeating some of the same mistakes, and having a different approach on stealth doesn’t turn these mistakes into something good.

At least they should fix the stealth rendering flaw in the graphics engine. This makes things even worse.

Yeah that was my post in Thieves forum that started this. Yes when I am playing my 20 20 0 0 30 IP shatter build with all crit/power gear I can kill a thief if I can stun him out of stealth. How many thieves are you going to catch this way? Only the bad ones. The good ones only come out of stealth after they have stomped you.

Lately I have been seeing the new breed of D/D cond thieves out there. No mesmer build has a chance against this. No class of any kind has enough cond removal for this (not even a healing mantra mesmer with null field).

quercus.9261:

Yeah that was my post in Thieves forum that started this. Yes when I am playing my 20 20 0 0 30 IP shatter build with all crit/power gear I can kill a thief if I can stun him out of stealth. How many thieves are you going to catch this way? Only the bad ones. The good ones only come out of stealth after they have stomped you.

Lately I have been seeing the new breed of D/D cond thieves out there. No mesmer build has a chance against this. No class of any kind has enough cond removal for this (not even a healing mantra mesmer with null field).

To be able to kill a condition thief is to cure all of his conditions , right o.o …good strategy !