Guild Wars 2

(First off, sorry for any grammatical errors, Started to nod off in the middle of typing this, narcolepsy sucks, Second of all, to sum most of this up vaguely, Cleansing Conflagration currently being a 20 skill point skill is an issue and iMage needs a major buff)

I love the concept of the torch in general for mesmers, and I really want to go for my legendary torch (since I already have the precursor) but it is almost useless in many aspects of PvE.

Lets first look at the 2 skills it gives us, The Prestige and Phantasmal Mage.
Now, since the last patch, they did ‘fix’ the prestige a bit when it came to the channel time, but it is still not really useful in pve at all, only under certain circumstances.

Now my big issue is with phantasmal mage, not only is it useless in dungeons, but also in pvp/wvw. At times when I spawn the mage, it can’t get a single attack off before it dies! Not only that, but it is so weak compared to the other phantasms.

The iWarden not only can block projectiles, but it also dishes out a HUGE amount of damage to bosses.

The iDuelist, again, dishes out a huge amount of damage

And I do not have to keep going on with the phantasms that are weapon-associated, because it is all the same! They all dish out a TON of damage, but the torch only applies 3 seconds of confusion (and retaliation, but that isn’t really a big thing compared to the damage these give off).

And now lets move onto confusion! Confusion is useless against SO many bosses in the game! The reason being is that almost NONE of the bosses attack nearly fast enough for confusion to even effect them! So now, the Mage is only useful for the retaliation! BUT WAIT, many bosses aren’t hitting you constantly (like I already stated), so that retaliation is useless too!

All of this wrong with the torch, could there be any more? YEP.

Cleansing Conflagration is the only thing that makes torch remotely plausible for use in pve at the moment. BUT, as many of you know, most Mesmers run 20/20/0/0/30 or 10/30/0/0/30 in dungeons (simply because confusion is not viable against bosses). Now, you ask me ‘How is this a problem?’ well, if you are running a berzerkers build, your going to want to use a Greatsword for ranged attacks. But when you spec 20 points into Domination, you unlock the ability to choose Cleansing Conflagration and Greatsword Training. So no problems, right? WRONG.

If you spec into what is considered a ‘Viable’ pve build, your not going to put 30 points into domination, your going to put 20 or even 10 (and 20 is considered a Greatsword build) into domination, so you can only choose either Cleansing Conflagration or Greatsword Training, and of course Greatsword Training is what your going to choose, it is the most relevant choice.

Now that my little ‘rant’ is over, I would like you guys to input your feelings on the torch, and how it could be improved.

2 things that could be a possibility: add Cleansing Conflagration to the 10 skill point area, and/or to make the phantasmal mage apply an aoe confusion/retaliation.

I agree that Torch could use a buff for PvE, but, then again, it really is a PvP focused weapon. So how to make it better without being a lil overpowered in WvW?

Because really, torch is pretty good in PvP.

While I also agree that Confusion is problematic in PvE, keep in mind that this is not a Torch-problem. There’s an underlying, greater-than-the-Torch issue with Confusion, and they’d not be doing our balance a favour by fixing it on a Torch level.

Once confusion is fixed… the Torch would be in a much better position. Which in turn solves the Trait issue because then the GS-Trait isn’t naturally superior no more.

If you want a viable Dungeon build where you can spec into Torch try Mantra GS 30/30/0/0/10, one trait in Dom is kinda optional and you could switch it whenever you need the condition removal from torch.

Confusion being bad in pve is only half the problem. The Mage is completely worthless, in pve, pvp, wvw, and anything else that didn’t cover. It’s the worst skill on the entire game, and until it is fixed, the torch will simply be half a weapon.

shimmerless.4560:

Yeah, it’s always been a bit of a shame about PvE confusion (and it’s weird that your starting weap is a scepter when you take it into consideration). Then again, even with confusion’s own issues I’m of the opinion that (other than stuff like vulnerability) cond builds are very lackluster in PvE, so it’s really part of a broader problem.

Starting weapon used to be the Sword. In beta we pointed out to them that it was sort if silly to have a mechanic that couldn’t be used until you unlocked all 3 Skills, and even then it was hard to build up.

Their response was to make the Scepter our primary weapon, thereby giving us good clone production at the start.

Carighan.6758:

keep in mind that this is not a Torch-problem.

Once confusion is fixed… the Torch would be in a much better position. Which in turn solves the Trait issue because then the GS-Trait isn’t naturally superior no more."

I have to disagree with torch being fixed if confusion in PvE is fixed. The mage is so under powered compared to the other phantasms, even if they did fix PvE confusion mage still would be under powered as it is now.

Indeed, even a guardian running a burning condition damage build knows this. It seems torch just doesn’t work well in PVE, but it is very good to have in PVP.

I’m sorry to tell you… but all mesmer weapons suck in PvE Dungeons.
Mesmers deal crap damage, thats why. 2 warriors are dealing way more damage than 5 Mesmers. Mesmers are good for portal, timewarp and feedback – nothing else.

Akio.3849:

I have to disagree with torch being fixed if confusion in PvE is fixed. The mage is so under powered compared to the other phantasms, even if they did fix PvE confusion mage still would be under powered as it is now.

Well he applies 3 stacks of Confusion (we’re assuming it’s fixed to be fully viable) and also grants a nearby friendly player Retaliation.

How would that be a weak Phantasm? It is weak because Confusion is so weak.

Carighan.6758:

Akio.3849:

I have to disagree with torch being fixed if confusion in PvE is fixed. The mage is so under powered compared to the other phantasms, even if they did fix PvE confusion mage still would be under powered as it is now.

Well he applies 3 stacks of Confusion (we’re assuming it’s fixed to be fully viable) and also grants a nearby friendly player Retaliation.

How would that be a weak Phantasm? It is weak because Confusion is so weak.

Just for you, I’ve dug out the massively long explanation that I wrote up a while ago with regards to the iMage. Note that this analysis is dealing with pvp, where confusion is significantly more viable, and in a good place, compared to pve.

For those who don’t want to read this explanation, I’ll put the tl;dr at the top.

TL;DR: The iMage is objectively the worst skill for any weapon for any class in the entire game.

The iMage does 2 things, apply 3 seconds of 3 stacks of confusion and possibly 3 seconds of retaliation. As per my testing, its projectile will hit a maximum of 2 targets, not affected by illusionary elasticity. Additionally, the boons/conditions are not affected by condition/boon duration, and so are locked at those numbers. The base cooldown is 30 seconds, but effectively 24 seconds due to illusions 5.

I will assume the iMage is being used in a condition damage build, because it has 0 utility in any build outside of this type of build. I will assume condition damage of around 1500, producing a total of 355 damage per skill use per stack of confusion, 3 stacks doing slightly over 1k damage per skill use. In 3 seconds, with very rare exceptions (hasted skill-spamming thieves) a target will use a maximum of 2 skills that will produce confusion hits, and very often 1 or 0, if they use or are using a longer channeling skill. Based on this, I will give a maximum damage value of 2000 to the iMage per skill use.

In a condition damage build with negligible power, the possible retaliation it can apply will do negligible, if any, damage, and I will ignore that in this analysis.

Being a phantasm, the damage is subject to normal problems such as obstruction/blind/invulnerability. The projectile is slow and can be LoS blocked or dodged. The phantasm also has low hp, and is unlikely to survive to cast a second attack. However given the possibility that it will do so combined with the additional chances of the attack not working, I will put the total damage per phantasm cast at 3000.

The phantasm has a cooldown of 24 seconds. The cd trait for torch is in a very strange place in the mesmer trait trees, making it difficult to take for any condition damage focused build. Additionally, without that trait, the phantasm has absolutely 0 utility, purely damage. With that trait, it now picks up a bit of utility, but not tied to the phantasm itself, just to the skill use. Due to these, I will assume the phantasm has 0 utility, and 3000 damage per summon is the sum total of its use.

Additionally, the 3000 damage is subject to normal issues that conditions face, including removal, being immune to conditions, or -condition duration (on my tank build, the 3s of confusion would only last 1.05 seconds).
Added all together, the phantasm is a 24 second cooldown skill with 0 utility and 3000 damage in the best of cases, with most situations producing significantly less than that damage, if any damage at all.

All the long cooldown skills in the game either have large amounts of utility (iWarden/static field/etc) or large amounts of damage (meteor shower/whirling axes/churning earth). The iMage has neither high potent damage or utility. Now, I don’t know every single skill in the game, but I do know most of them, and none of them have the massive cooldown that the iMage does with mediocre and fragile damage combined with 0 utility. Based on all of this, I say that the iMage is the worst weapon skill in for any class on any weapon in this game.

torch is kinda bad no matter what

Pyroatheist.9031:

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Just for you, I’ve dug out the massively long explanation that I wrote up a while ago with regards to the iMage. Note that this analysis is dealing with pvp, where confusion is significantly more viable, and in a good place, compared to pve.

For those who don’t want to read this explanation, I’ll put the tl;dr at the top.

TL;DR: The iMage is objectively the worst skill for any weapon for any class in the entire game.

The iMage does 2 things, apply 3 seconds of 3 stacks of confusion and possibly 3 seconds of retaliation. As per my testing, its projectile will hit a maximum of 2 targets, not affected by illusionary elasticity. Additionally, the boons/conditions are not affected by condition/boon duration, and so are locked at those numbers. The base cooldown is 30 seconds, but effectively 24 seconds due to illusions 5.

I will assume the iMage is being used in a condition damage build, because it has 0 utility in any build outside of this type of build. I will assume condition damage of around 1500, producing a total of 355 damage per skill use per stack of confusion, 3 stacks doing slightly over 1k damage per skill use. In 3 seconds, with very rare exceptions (hasted skill-spamming thieves) a target will use a maximum of 2 skills that will produce confusion hits, and very often 1 or 0, if they use or are using a longer channeling skill. Based on this, I will give a maximum damage value of 2000 to the iMage per skill use.

In a condition damage build with negligible power, the possible retaliation it can apply will do negligible, if any, damage, and I will ignore that in this analysis.

Being a phantasm, the damage is subject to normal problems such as obstruction/blind/invulnerability. The projectile is slow and can be LoS blocked or dodged. The phantasm also has low hp, and is unlikely to survive to cast a second attack. However given the possibility that it will do so combined with the additional chances of the attack not working, I will put the total damage per phantasm cast at 3000.

The phantasm has a cooldown of 24 seconds. The cd trait for torch is in a very strange place in the mesmer trait trees, making it difficult to take for any condition damage focused build. Additionally, without that trait, the phantasm has absolutely 0 utility, purely damage. With that trait, it now picks up a bit of utility, but not tied to the phantasm itself, just to the skill use. Due to these, I will assume the phantasm has 0 utility, and 3000 damage per summon is the sum total of its use.

Additionally, the 3000 damage is subject to normal issues that conditions face, including removal, being immune to conditions, or -condition duration (on my tank build, the 3s of confusion would only last 1.05 seconds).
Added all together, the phantasm is a 24 second cooldown skill with 0 utility and 3000 damage in the best of cases, with most situations producing significantly less than that damage, if any damage at all.

All the long cooldown skills in the game either have large amounts of utility (iWarden/static field/etc) or large amounts of damage (meteor shower/whirling axes/churning earth). The iMage has neither high potent damage or utility. Now, I don’t know every single skill in the game, but I do know most of them, and none of them have the massive cooldown that the iMage does with mediocre and fragile damage combined with 0 utility. Based on all of this, I say that the iMage is the worst weapon skill in for any class on any weapon in this game.

Wow, thank you for posting this, it was an interesting read!. I really do hope they plan on reworking the torch. I did decide to work on Rodgort in hopes that it will be improved, but either way I like the legendary so I will be fine with it haha.

Maybe the scaling between confusion and attack speed/swing timer on champions/boss mobs could be a viable fix?