Guild Wars 2

Been testing Torment from a mesmer perspective and as much as I love them adding something new to scepter, I’m decidedly underwelmed. They REALLY need to increase the damage boost when targets are moving. People who get Torment on them should be terrified to move around. Instead, it’s like the slightest uptick from a super weak bleed. This won’t be stopping anyone from doing anything. Not even worth a condition cleanse. It’s the GW2 equivalent of getting a small pebble in your shoe.

How do you guys feel about Torment?

Nothing wrong with it as a bit of additional damage. If, however, it was meant to actually provide a real choice between moving and taking more damage, it fails miserably.

Pyroatheist.9031:

If, however, it was meant to actually provide a real choice between moving and taking more damage, it fails miserably.

Yeah, I agree strongly. It certainly doesn’t make me afraid in any way of moving with the numbers where they were at. Perhaps instead of .5 vs 1.5 bleeds Anet could change it to 0 vs 2 at the very least. People know they will be taking a very small amount of damage in both cases, the motivation isn’t there to consider standing still.

Hmm, with 1530 condi damage it’kittenting for about 4500, and a additional 4500 if they run.

I feel it hits pretty hard all things considered. I am really liking it I got to say, but I need a couple more days with it to really have a valid opinion.

It does seem to scale very well with condi damage almost so much so I think scepter now requires condi gear to be worth while

Yes, with high Condition Damage it’s up to 9k damage. I don’t see what people are complaining about.

You non-CondDmg players shouldn’t expect to deal a lot of damage with Conditions if you don’t invest in them. The fact that Mesmers fart out Bleeds and Confusion from Illusions and Shattering has spoiled many Shatter/Phantasm Mesmers, I feel.

Godmoney.2048:

Hmm, with 1530 condi damage it’kittenting for about 4500, and a additional 4500 if they run.

I feel it hits pretty hard all things considered. I am really liking it I got to say, but I need a couple more days with it to really have a valid opinion.

It does seem to scale very well with condi damage almost so much so I think scepter now requires condi gear to be worth while

What mesmer runs 1530 condition damage these days? Completely impractical after the confusion nerf. And I hate to break it to you, but no one’s gonna buy all condition gear for one torment application off a block on scepter.

Entropy.4732:

Godmoney.2048:

Hmm, with 1530 condi damage it’kittenting for about 4500, and a additional 4500 if they run.

I feel it hits pretty hard all things considered. I am really liking it I got to say, but I need a couple more days with it to really have a valid opinion.

It does seem to scale very well with condi damage almost so much so I think scepter now requires condi gear to be worth while

What mesmer runs 1530 condition damage these days? Completely impractical after the confusion nerf. And I hate to break it to you, but no one’s gonna buy all condition gear for one torment application off a block on scepter.

What mesmer runs 1530 condition damage these days? Mesmers that use torment, clearly. Is it so strange that someone doesn’t run the FotM build that theorycrafters made?

Entropy.4732:

What mesmer runs 1530 condition damage these days? Completely impractical after the confusion nerf. And I hate to break it to you, but no one’s gonna buy all condition gear for one torment application off a block on scepter.

The fact you think Confusion is a Condition Mesmer’s primary source of damage shows how much you know, really.

Even before Confusion in WvW was nerfed there were plenty of Mesmers that ran non-Glamour (i.e. non-Confusion focused) Condition builds.

Entropy.4732:

What mesmer runs 1530 condition damage these days? Completely impractical after the confusion nerf. And I hate to break it to you, but no one’s gonna buy all condition gear for one torment application off a block on scepter.

Yes, because certainly that person has no other conditions he applies, especially not Bleed and Confusion stacks. You are right ofc, he built his entire character around that single 5Torment stack.

Really?

It’s a nice boost. It’s not ooooverly powerful, but it’s cool. I mean this is the “Necro-Condition” (they have the skill which applies it easily :P ), I’m happy we got one skill applying it, giving us another condition which needs another use of a condition remover.
Plus, it hurts a fair amount. It’s not enough to make someone freeze dead in their tracks (Immobilize already exists for that purpose, anyhow), but it’s enough to make them feel the damage.

Entropy.4732:

Godmoney.2048:

Hmm, with 1530 condi damage it’kittenting for about 4500, and a additional 4500 if they run.

I feel it hits pretty hard all things considered. I am really liking it I got to say, but I need a couple more days with it to really have a valid opinion.

It does seem to scale very well with condi damage almost so much so I think scepter now requires condi gear to be worth while

What mesmer runs 1530 condition damage these days? Completely impractical after the confusion nerf. And I hate to break it to you, but no one’s gonna buy all condition gear for one torment application off a block on scepter.

Hmm, I don’t know? I have been all day. I have every stat set in the game though on my mesmer with the best runes and sigils so for me to pop on condi damage for a week to test things isn’t a big deal.

I mean I have the gear just sitting there Rampager, Rabid, Carrion with full ascended Rabid so it’s no skin off my back to roll a less than ideal power crit build I usually run.

I mean if I’m going to bust my butt getting over half dozen sets I might as well use them when we get patched don’t ya think?

I haven’t fought any particularly good people today but I have won every 1v1 this evening. Most of the opponents weren’t particularly good though I will admit. Honestly my biggest problem with running cond is the lack of Runes of air I usually run. I feel slow after 2 months of solid air runes.

Again, there’s nothing wrong with the damage torment provides. The issue is that from the mechanics, it appears to be designed to provide a meaningful choice between not moving or taking higher damage. However, the damage increase is not significant enough for anyone to even consider not moving to decrease the damage taken.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Again, there’s nothing wrong with the damage torment provides. The issue is that from the mechanics, it appears to be designed to provide a meaningful choice between not moving or taking higher damage. However, the damage increase is not significant enough for anyone to even consider not moving to decrease the damage taken.

Yes, in Daoc or WAR or Rift barb affects did zero damage if you hold still and tons if you move. I’m not sure why they went with this middle ground?

In Warhammer a shaman putting a barb on you really really hurt if you didn’t stand still. Torment is really much more of a bleed than a actual BARB effect.

Its really good if they buff it then it will becom OP for sure.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Again, there’s nothing wrong with the damage torment provides. The issue is that from the mechanics, it appears to be designed to provide a meaningful choice between not moving or taking higher damage. However, the damage increase is not significant enough for anyone to even consider not moving to decrease the damage taken.

Agree.

Atm torment is like confusion.

They both are designed to put target in front of a choice: move/use skills and take dmg or stand still/wait confusion expire without acting to avoid it.

Issue is, this kind of mechanics works when they have meaningful drawback if target decide to ignore them – see confusion pre nerf, it had meaningful dmg thus making his job.

Now confusion dmg is nerfed. Thus ppl straight up ignore it because the drawback is very little, and this defeats the whole concept of the condition.

Well, same issue with torment. The dmg should scale MUCH higher when moving (admitting it works, yday evening the “extra dmg while moving” was not working at all).

+1 for the thread title, Torment isn’t worth the effort

Pyroatheist.9031:

Again, there’s nothing wrong with the damage torment provides. The issue is that from the mechanics, it appears to be designed to provide a meaningful choice between not moving or taking higher damage. However, the damage increase is not significant enough for anyone to even consider not moving to decrease the damage taken.

I don’t understand it as such.
It’s not meant to be like Confusion or Retaliation where the design goal was to “not” attack.

I understand it as a counterbalance to how in general, standing still incurs you more damage than running around like mad. This is because you stand in more AEs and fields, incurring more conditions and damage.

Torment sort-of does a mini-counterbalance here. Here’s one situation which deals more damage when moving. It’s still better to move in 99% of cases, but the damage difference is slightly reduced when Torment comes into play.

My thoughts on torment:

My first thought on torment before release was, that it would be a cool tool to prevent people from fleeing in wvw which happens way to often in this game. While roaming solo or in small groups you will really often encounter those ultra mobile roamers mainly thiefs and elementalists(playing both classes myself, no hating) which can choose to leave any fight without consequence. On the other hand you simple can’t flee from certain builds of those professions, you choose to fight or to die while fleeing. And that aspect is just great it should apply to every profession in wvw. If you choose to fight you shouldn’t be able to leave the fight. I hoped torment would bring this aspect to mesmer and necro gameplay.

Problems on torment itself:

- it should not inflict damage while you don’t move
- it should tick at rare intervals but for more damage
- it should drain endurance while moving or apply cripple with each hit from the condition while moving.

Why this? When you have the torment condition on yourself you basically have 2 options:

1. Stop running and get dmg from torment condition + your enemy.
2. Continue running and get double damage from the condition.

Ask yourself which does more damage. Of course option 1 does a lot more damage. Nobody will stop fleeing just because of torment. They continue to flee, some will cleanse conditions, some maybe not, it makes no difference.

So why should it tick at rare intervals but for higher damage(but with the axact same DOT)? In my opinion this makes the debuff itself more unremarkable and it rewards watchful players. You will stop fleeing and start fighting because you can work around those intervals in which you can move and in which you shouldnt. Perhaps one tick every 3 seconds.

- it should drain endurance while moving or apply cripple with each hit from the condition while moving.

just because crowd control is cool, and just a DOT is boring. perhaps tune down the damage a bit.

Problems on mesmers torment:

- Application

Srsly… illusionary counter is just a bad option for this condition to trigger. I mean how am i supposed to punish a fleeing enemy when i need a block event for this kitten to happen. even a melee skill would be fine, but seriously a block? It should be applied by a utility skill, perhaps a mantra or a signet. Every weaponset with exception of the gs is pure bs at stopping fleeing enemies, why tie torment to a specific weapon i dont get it.
Devs should really try to play conditionmesmer in wvw and see how funny it is when any enemy just presses W for one minute and will escape.

actually, i found torment quite strong because its another condition that the enemy is force to remove

torment can be reapplied to prevent woese condition like burning from being removed

I Like it; however, I think it should be moved over to Scepter Skill 3 “Confusing Images”.

Also adding it to Staff Skill 5 “Chaos Storm”

Carighan.6758:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Again, there’s nothing wrong with the damage torment provides. The issue is that from the mechanics, it appears to be designed to provide a meaningful choice between not moving or taking higher damage. However, the damage increase is not significant enough for anyone to even consider not moving to decrease the damage taken.

I don’t understand it as such.
It’s not meant to be like Confusion or Retaliation where the design goal was to “not” attack.

I understand it as a counterbalance to how in general, standing still incurs you more damage than running around like mad. This is because you stand in more AEs and fields, incurring more conditions and damage.

Torment sort-of does a mini-counterbalance here. Here’s one situation which deals more damage when moving. It’s still better to move in 99% of cases, but the damage difference is slightly reduced when Torment comes into play.

That’s definitely possible. It all depends on what the devs intended it as, and I can’t answer that question.

Put Torment on Counterspell. Put AoE Blind on iCounter.

Fixed Torment and Scepter for you Anet.

Krispera.5087:

Put Torment on Counterspell. Put AoE Blind on iCounter.

Fixed Torment and Scepter for you Anet.

+1 QFT. It makes complete sense. Someone attacks you, you defend by block and blind. Someone runs away from you, you throw Torment.

Krispera.5087:

Put Torment on Counterspell. Put AoE Blind on iCounter.

Fixed Torment and Scepter for you Anet.

Dear Lord no. Counterspell is so easy to avoid even unintentionally. IIRC it is as slow as WoC but doesn’t home.

I like it just fine on Block. Instead of thinking of it as punishing enemies for running away, think of it as punishing enemies for chasing after you.

Embolism.8106:

Krispera.5087:

Put Torment on Counterspell. Put AoE Blind on iCounter.

Fixed Torment and Scepter for you Anet.

Dear Lord no. Counterspell is so easy to avoid even unintentionally. IIRC it is as slow as WoC but doesn’t home.

I like it just fine on Block. Instead of thinking of it as punishing enemies for running away, think of it as punishing enemies for chasing after you.

I ran a 1850 condi spec tonight and Torment would take a thief from 100-25 before they knew what was what. It scales very very well with condi.

If you’re not going rabid or carrion though I would not use scepter. Scepter IS torment now. The confusion on it is still only ok because of it’s slow charge up time. The double clone proccing I’m sure will be patched away soon.

I run 2.2k condi dmg at my max… 7k dmg standing still, 7k moving; if the stars align, this will couple with 20 stacks of confusion [250 dmg per stack].

Now I don’t know if it’s still sub-optimal but full condi mes surely becomes more powerful.

Godmoney.2048:

Embolism.8106:

Krispera.5087:

Put Torment on Counterspell. Put AoE Blind on iCounter.

Fixed Torment and Scepter for you Anet.

Dear Lord no. Counterspell is so easy to avoid even unintentionally. IIRC it is as slow as WoC but doesn’t home.

I like it just fine on Block. Instead of thinking of it as punishing enemies for running away, think of it as punishing enemies for chasing after you.

I ran a 1850 condi spec tonight and Torment would take a thief from 100-25 before they knew what was what. It scales very very well with condi.

If you’re not going rabid or carrion though I would not use scepter. Scepter IS torment now. The confusion on it is still only ok because of it’s slow charge up time. The double clone proccing I’m sure will be patched away soon.

It’s useless anyway, that double clone bug. In a decent fight it’s still not worth it to waste time on the otherwise utterly useless scepter autoattack. Why can’t scepter have decent #1 like necro scepter? Why does it has to be this illogical piece of crap from the alpha build of the game?
Even speeding it up by 100% is not going to make it useful. It should be reworked from the ground.

Krispera.5087:

Put Torment on Counterspell. Put AoE Blind on iCounter.

Fixed Torment and Scepter for you Anet.

I love you.

aNet will NEVER increase the damage on Torment, because the same people who cried about confusion would cry about torment. aNet seems to cater for those lazy players who rather than not attacking (confusion) or not moving (Torment) would rather keep the ability to press 222222 until their fingers bleed.

The continual dumbing down of anything that requires any kind of thought to use or gives a penalty to a player is being removed from this game to cater for casual, lazy players. A shame really.

Loco.4561:

aNet will NEVER increase the damage on Torment, because the same people who cried about confusion would cry about torment. aNet seems to cater for those lazy players who rather than not attacking (confusion) or not moving (Torment) would rather keep the ability to press 222222 until their fingers bleed.

The continual dumbing down of anything that requires any kind of thought to use or gives a penalty to a player is being removed from this game to cater for casual, lazy players. A shame really.

Agreed. Once again I’m reminded of the absurdity of that 50% confusion nerf. The confusion symbol is LITERALLY the Mesmer symbol on the forums. It was designed to be a core condition of our class, not an after thought no one pays attention to. The problem with Anet is that they are so terrified of Mesmers that they never want to give us any kind of real buff without a severe nerf or disadvantage to go with it. They’re like an insanely strict parent who says “Okay Johnny, you can have a slice of carrot cake, but you must clean the toilet while you eat it.” They dangled torment in front of our faces before this patch, then gave it to us on ONE weapon skill that’s not even a direct application. And only 5 stacks. No way to get that stack up AT ALL unless you reapply the same block.

Loco.4561:

aNet will NEVER increase the damage on Torment, because the same people who cried about confusion would cry about torment. aNet seems to cater for those lazy players who rather than not attacking (confusion) or not moving (Torment) would rather keep the ability to press 222222 until their fingers bleed.

The continual dumbing down of anything that requires any kind of thought to use or gives a penalty to a player is being removed from this game to cater for casual, lazy players. A shame really.

Are you kitten kidding me? You want it to hit harder than 11k? WTF.

I got to say some of your peoples whining is just silly. I would go so far as to say you’re bad and you should feel bad for being so bad, but I’ll stop short and say you should practice more.

Serious, if these changes really keep you from owning face then that’s your problem not Anet’s.

Buff Torments damage even more? That’s insane that you would even ask that. My torment takes people to below half health already.

I’m starting to lose patience with this complaining. It’s obvious that people haven’t even tried torment yet. There is no way a rational person could be asking for a damage buff on it unless they are completely clueless.

Godmoney.2048:

Loco.4561:

aNet will NEVER increase the damage on Torment, because the same people who cried about confusion would cry about torment. aNet seems to cater for those lazy players who rather than not attacking (confusion) or not moving (Torment) would rather keep the ability to press 222222 until their fingers bleed.

The continual dumbing down of anything that requires any kind of thought to use or gives a penalty to a player is being removed from this game to cater for casual, lazy players. A shame really.

Are you kitten kidding me? You want it to hit harder than 11k? WTF.

I got to say some of your peoples whining is just silly. I would go so far as to say you’re bad and you should feel bad for being so bad, but I’ll stop short and say you should practice more.

Serious, if these changes really keep you from owning face then that’s your problem not Anet’s.

Buff Torments damage even more? That’s insane that you would even ask that. My torment takes people to below half health already.

I’m starting to lose patience with this complaining. It’s obvious that people haven’t even tried torment yet. There is no way a rational person could be asking for a damage buff on it unless they are completely clueless.

“Your people’s whining”… Guessing you’re a necro or thief. Despite the uncivil, belligerent tone, you do have a point. Other classes would become OP if Torment went up because of their unbridled access to stacking ability. What would work though is giving the mesmer more ways of applying Torment instead of one skill on a block at only 5 stacks. Sorry, but it’s just not enough damage at 5 stacks for a Mesmer to be worth it. That, OR have it work like confusion where the damage is increased if you’re moving, but goes to zero if you stand still. I like the concept of Torment, but right now it just feels like another bleed for Mesmers. I’m sure Necros and thieves are rocking it hard.

Thieves torment source blows, hard. For all purposes, consider that they don’t get torment at all.

So the problem isn’t that torment is really more like muscle ache it’s that mesmers have too little access to it to make it worthwhile.

There is no basic problem with the condition itself, or the mode of application. The problem is that it’s on the scepter. You have the worthless autoattack, and you have confusing images, which is slow, clunky, and applies a worthless condition. As much as the block is now fantastic for condition specs, the scepter is still so bad that it’s painful to use.

stof.9341:

Thieves torment source blows, hard. For all purposes, consider that they don’t get torment at all.

Yeah, the whole group of the thief applying torment stacks is such a limited access to it…

Torment, in principle, is far worse than confusion. FAR worse. In application, it’s just a nice little boost.

I think when they came up with the concept for Torment, it probably started out much like how Havana described – huge damage if you moved and practically nothing if you did not.

Quickly playtesting would reveal this doesn’t work well. It makes the people feel rather useless and would actually make the gameplay all the poorer for it.

I suspect they realized this and tweaked it to be less punishing for movement. Eventually they realized they basically had to balance the DoT around the idea that a person would be moving with this condition on them. This is something I conjectured when reading the patch notes.

Pyroatheist.9031:

There is no basic problem with the condition itself, or the mode of application. The problem is that it’s on the scepter. You have the worthless autoattack, and you have confusing images, which is slow, clunky, and applies a worthless condition. As much as the block is now fantastic for condition specs, the scepter is still so bad that it’s painful to use.

To be fair, this is really more commentary on the scepter than Torment.

If I had my druthers, I’d change the scepter auto-attack to apply a random condition (burning for 1 second, bleeding or poison for 3 seconds) on chain #2, and chain #3 should spawn a clone that does damage and applies 2 stacks of confusion for 1 second.

I find the addition of torment on scepter to be really good. You cant build around everything there are no torment runes, torment food.

I’m sure many mesmers have rabid gear.

I usually build around duration with condition but I get 11 secs of torment just with food doing 6k masked behind confusion burnsetc from staff.

Mesmers torment >thief torment.

You have to give up a utitilty slot for it and spider venom is still the king venom imo if you have to take one.

I’m running 25 chaos 20 insp 25 illusions so far it’s pretty good. 1.9k condi damage with no stacks.

Thedenofsin.7340:

If I had my druthers, I’d change the scepter auto-attack to apply a random condition (burning for 1 second, bleeding or poison for 3 seconds) on chain #2, and chain #3 should spawn a clone that does damage and applies 2 stacks of confusion for 1 second.

I don’t know what they were thinking with scepter really… It’s skills now even more say condition weapon, but it’s #1 is still a split between power based (but with bad scaling) and the gimmicky clone generation that only happens when you don’t dodge or use a skill until the animation is done; it just doesn’t fit.

Embolism.8106:

Krispera.5087:

Put Torment on Counterspell. Put AoE Blind on iCounter.

Fixed Torment and Scepter for you Anet.

Dear Lord no. Counterspell is so easy to avoid even unintentionally. IIRC it is as slow as WoC but doesn’t home.

I like it just fine on Block. Instead of thinking of it as punishing enemies for running away, think of it as punishing enemies for chasing after you.

Turn around and face the enemy. Block their skill, then backwalk (yes backwalk, I know) while using Confusing Images. They won’t even notice the Torment, but they’ll get hit by the conditions since they’re moving after you.

Godmoney.2048:

Hmm, with 1530 condi damage it’kittenting for about 4500, and a additional 4500 if they run.

I feel it hits pretty hard all things considered. I am really liking it I got to say, but I need a couple more days with it to really have a valid opinion.

It does seem to scale very well with condi damage almost so much so I think scepter now requires condi gear to be worth while

As a thief this frightens me. A glass thief will have 13k hp. A thief that doesn’t move equals dead thief. This condition probably hit thieves hardest (not complaining!) because we rely 90% on evading damage. If you were to hit me whit that condition you would take about 50% of my health, glad I have some condition removal! :p

It’s not weak, nor is it strong enough to make me revisit my mesmer as a condition class longer than the 20 mins I tinkered around with it.

It’s a nice lil plus… but more work/improvements need to be done for condition mesmers.

put confusion on scepter 1 and make the attack work like necro’s (like Carighan said in several posts), put torment on scepter 3. fixed the scepter -.-

seriously the idiocty of putting torment on scepter 2 is over 9000 -.-

I think Scepter 3 confusion is fine. And torment on scepter 2 is fine.

that’s fine . . .

The torment on scepter 2 gives 5 stacks, and obviously scepter is a condition weapon. With a lot of condition damage, you could be dealing 4 to 5k each tick, not to mention moving ticks.
It would be too easy to cast torment on scepter 3.
They need to buff scepter #1 with something though.

Edit: 4-5k initial damage from block. Ticks are about 1-2k with high condition damage.

torch is fine btw

Guys hear me out: Please stop thinking about Torment and Confusion as direct dmg condition. They’re not like Bleed, Burning, or Poison. You need to bait your foe to fall for these two conditions. They require planning and setting up for maximum effectiveness.

Xephiare has been experimenting a build that I come up with and while it’s still early to say it’s viable or not. I think this is one way to make Torment and Confusion work.

Please check it out and discusss: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/condition-build-The-Clone-Spammer/first#post2307256

Geiir.7603:

Godmoney.2048:

Hmm, with 1530 condi damage it’kittenting for about 4500, and a additional 4500 if they run.

I feel it hits pretty hard all things considered. I am really liking it I got to say, but I need a couple more days with it to really have a valid opinion.

It does seem to scale very well with condi damage almost so much so I think scepter now requires condi gear to be worth while

As a thief this frightens me. A glass thief will have 13k hp. A thief that doesn’t move equals dead thief. This condition probably hit thieves hardest (not complaining!) because we rely 90% on evading damage. If you were to hit me whit that condition you would take about 50% of my health, glad I have some condition removal! :p

I took a thief earlier tonight from 100-25% with a single application of torment.

Xephiare.4793:

The torment on scepter 2 gives 5 stacks, and obviously scepter is a condition weapon. With a lot of condition damage, you could be dealing 4 to 5k each tick, not to mention moving ticks.

Cough 40-100 each tick, not 4-5k each tick.