Guild Wars 2

So I just logged on and noticed that underwater, the trident now applies bleeds, and the clones no longer apply confusion.

I am getting really sick of them not actually announcing these changes.

Wutttt? They nerfed that and didn’t announce it? LAME! Hopefully nothing else got ninja nerfed.

Also illusionary whaler now apples 4 stacks of confusion, not bleeds.

Just discovered this and came to post it. I was expecting them to remove confusion at some point and do nothing to replace it so getting bleed is nice.

Should be in patch notes though.

Yeah I am not really upset about the change personally because I knew it was coming eventually. And as long as we have some viable condition damage underwater I am happy. But I really wish they would put things in the notes. It is very annoying to hunt for unknown changes and it happens a lot.

Maybe you should make a post in the general discussion thread “What changes did they make to your class not in the update notes?” See if we aren’t they only ones.

It appears Illusion of Drowning no longer reflects your projectiles back at you which is nice.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the PvP forums start complaining about our underwater bleed stacking ability now though. Mesmers can’t have nice things.

I just came to post about this as well… Trident was epic underwater due to confusion. Bummer for this nerf.

As much as I liked ridiculous confusion stacks, Trident was a weapon that honestly felt extremely buggy. Didn’t help that the autoattack was entirely useless. From what I saw doing the aquatic daily, it feels a lot more coherent now, albeit less powerful.

Eh … the phant slaps confusion stacks. This works, I expected the confuser-clones to go bye-bye. And more bleed puts it more in line with its trait-bro, Staff.

Yea just noticed this too. Honestly we all knew it was coming, at least now the Trident is a better condition weapon innately. The Whaler doing confusion is interesting, but a neat change.

I miss blizzard. I wish blizzard would buy GW2 from ncsoft and then actually clean up and balance this sneaky and sloppy mess. Make it the amazing game it deserves to be.

Ah well I can dream.

While I’ll miss being able to insta-kill people in WvW because of stacking ten stacks of confusion on them with little effort, I welcome this change.

First, being able to stack that much confusion was very much overpowered. There’s no denying that. Secondly, since we are now able to stack bleeds instead of confusion, a) people can’t run away underwater since they’ll be bleeding, whereas before they could just ignore the confusion and swim away and b) in PvE (assuming the bleed cap isn’t being hit) it is a much more reliable source of damage. Now I’m writing this from the perspective of a condition mesmer, but hopefully this change will help the spear see a bit more usage amongst power builds. Also, being able to stack 15 bleeds on a target and a bit of confusion with the whaler is still very powerful, at least for someone specced into conditions.

It’s possible that some stuff that weren’t supposed to go live yet (hence not in the patch notes) slipped through like that star icon on the upper right corner of the screen.

Elementalist had their Dagger 3 changed in a way and that ain’t in the patch notes. So…

I can live with the current Mesmer Trident changes. In fact, I actually like them in PvE.

The two things I don’t like though, is the fact that there is a 25 stack cap on Bleeding … something that comes up a lot once you start getting in larger groups and that the Mesmer Trident Clones are currently LACKING the buffs of the Trident skill.

Oh Ele’s had an unannounced change as well? Interesting. At any rate though, having played with the new Trident’s functionality a fair amount tonight I think it’s honestly MORE powerful than it was, being able to apply a bleed directly and from clones is great and when they kill my clones I can just make phantasms to apply confusion and discourage them from attacking while I make more clones or blind them. Honestly this might very well be a buff to Trident over all, I hated enemies getting away because they simply swam away ignoring confusion and forcing me to utilize spear to catch up and detain them hoping to get that last auto on them to down them.

Confusion has potential to do more damage, but Bleed is MUCH more consistent, makes solo’ing underwater champs easier too.

In PvE the bleeds are more powerful — except in a large group where the fights already generate 25 bleed stacks. Nobody else generates confusion under water except the memser (and then mostly with the trident).

In WvW confusion is 2x as powerful (compared to PvP), so you can’t use WvW as a basis to balance any skill that creates confusion. Otherwise every confusion skill would get nerfed.

In PvP, I could hold an underwater point against multiple opponents by myself simply with the trident and clones. In that regard it was too powerful. It was so powerful that I would never shatter my clones because that would remove a lot of my confusion generation.

For a non-condition build, it’s a big nerf. However considering I could keep 12-20 stacks of confusion on someone solo with the trident, anything that dared attacked me was toast. Soloing champs in less than a minute? A veteran dying instantly if it has a rapid attack (poor spinning jellyfish)? It was an expected nerf, though I wish it was posted.

Now with clones having standard trident attack (weak attack + bleed), my trident has been regulated to Whaler. My shatter combos and standard spear attacks do more than my bleed stacks ever could (which is why I never bothered with trident attack unless nothing was touching my clones), but I’m glad the whaler was changed from bleed to confuse. I now have a reason to use him instead of just spear phantasms beyond the swimming up to a fight move.

Drawing Guy.3701:

For a non-condition build, it’s a big nerf. However considering I could keep 12-20 stacks of confusion on someone solo with the trident, anything that dared attacked me was toast. Soloing champs in less than a minute? A veteran dying instantly if it has a rapid attack (poor spinning jellyfish)? It was an expected nerf, though I wish it was posted.

Now with clones having standard trident attack (weak attack + bleed), my trident has been regulated to Whaler. My shatter combos and standard spear attacks do more than my bleed stacks ever could (which is why I never bothered with trident attack unless nothing was touching my clones), but I’m glad the whaler was changed from bleed to confuse. I now have a reason to use him instead of just spear phantasms beyond the swimming up to a fight move.

I don’t see how its a nerf to a non-condition build. Even non condition builds benefit from bleed stacking, and it takes the autoattacks of the scepter from something completely useless to something that actually has an effect. Obviously condition builds will benefit more from this change than power builds, but power builds were already in a horrible place with the scepter because the damage was so abysmal on it.

It should be mentioned that the whaler still does a quite appreciable amount of damage, on top of adding confusion stacks.

I did some tests with the new Trident and so far I love the changes. I was afraid ANet would just remove the confusion from clones and leave the rest as it is, turning the Trident into a total crap weapon. But fortunately they did it right.

The situation before the patch:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/The-Trident-and-The-Clones/first#post1219065

The situation after the patch:

1. autoattack: 2 seconds bleed
2. blind: unchanged
3. clone: now causes bleed just like the #1 autoattack
4. phantasm: now 4x confusion (instead of 4x bleed), but now with full (doubled in PvE & WvW) damage, so 4x confusion from Phantasm now are as good as 8x confusion from clones before. Confusions are active about half the time (duration 4 sec, Phantasm attacks every 7 sec)
5. sink: didn’t test it yet, probably unchanged

Now here comes the kicker: After the changes I’m able to stack 25 bleedings on a target (no Timewarp included, just three clones, Sharper Images trait and autoattack). My bleeds tick with 120 damage, so this is a HUGE load of damage. Mobs die much faster now than with the old confusion stacking.

In WvW I had trouble killing players who just swim away instead of attacking me, rendering the 10+ confusions completely useless. Now with 20+ bleeds ticking instead, swimming away is no longer a valid option.

Conclusion:
Trident is still strong but much more reliable now.

Thanks ANet, you did it right!

Drawing Guy.3701:

For a non-condition build, it’s a big nerf.

Before or after patch, why would a non-condition build ever use Trident, except maybe to produce a clone + phantasm as pure shatter fodder.

In a power build, Spear was and still is much better.

In my pure-condition build (with no power at all) the Spear is worthless, deals lousy damage. I use it only as an escape tool (#2, #4 and #5 are good for that) but never for damage (except when fighting non-bleed objects under water, which takes forever in my build).

Snoxx.7943:

Before or after patch, why would a non-condition build ever use Trident, except maybe to produce a clone + phantasm as pure shatter fodder.

Quite a few reasons:

1. It’s the only ranged option for when you need range
2. It creates boons as well as conditions
3. It still does direct damage so it benefits from power
4. Confusion is a shutdown mechanic in PvP and the trident was superb at it

The trident in PvP/WvW was much better off with confusion instead of bleeds. You’re now limited to whaler and shatters for confusion with this weapon. Not as reliable as before (but on par with our other weapons).

@juno:

The trident clones are at least equally strong as staff clones. They create a bleed every second with a chance of another one if you have the Sharper Images trait. Staff clones are considered as being very strong. In a condition build they are even stronger than the staff phantasm.

And the direct damage from trident attack (especially autoattack) was so low, even with 2000 power it must have been lousy. Sure it’s the only ranged autoattack, but it was worthless since it barely scratched the enemy. It did 80 damage per hit in my build, no kidding.

As for reliability, confusion is completely unreliable since you can nullify it by simply swimming away. Believe me, there are a lot players who just swim away once getting attacked under water. They react like: “omgosh, someone attacks me and I have no clue how my aquatic skills work, I need to get outta water quick”. Ironically it was impossible to kill them, whereas they should have been the easiest kills because they are absolutely clueless about how to play their char. Now after the changes they die – just as they deserve.

Its an okay change but why it applies bleeding for 3sec? Should be 5sec to compensate confusion. Mesmer is still great underwater but i feel like its much much weaker 1v1 now.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Its an okay change but why it applies bleeding for 3sec? Should be 5sec to compensate confusion. Mesmer is still great underwater but i feel like its much much weaker 1v1 now.

Bleeding is generally shorter stacks when it is massively stackable, this follows with the pattern that most skills applying bleeds use.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Its an okay change but why it applies bleeding for 3sec? Should be 5sec to compensate confusion. Mesmer is still great underwater but i feel like its much much weaker 1v1 now.

Bleeding is generally shorter stacks when it is massively stackable, this follows with the pattern that most skills applying bleeds use.

Yeah i got it but clones attack slower than we’re and base damage from trident autos is kitten poor. Five sec is what i should be me think

Nuka Cola.8520:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Its an okay change but why it applies bleeding for 3sec? Should be 5sec to compensate confusion. Mesmer is still great underwater but i feel like its much much weaker 1v1 now.

Bleeding is generally shorter stacks when it is massively stackable, this follows with the pattern that most skills applying bleeds use.

Yeah i got it but clones attack slower than we’re and base damage from trident autos is kitten poor. Five sec is what i should be me think

It seems to me that you haven’t actually gone and tested this out yet. Underwater clones, like everything else, attack a far sight faster than land clones. Due to this effect, 2 clones and yourself autoattacking a target will stack up 13+ bleeds in just a couple seconds. That is not underpowered by any stretch of the imagination, especially given the ease with which we can maintain clones at all times.

Not a fan. The confusion on Trident was the only decent confusion playstyle. All the effort and work to run a confusion playstyle in land combat is often not worth the payoff. If you can’t keep confusion up then the conditions based Mesmer falls apart. Trident could keep confusion up, making condition damage matter.

Just compare it to a condition build for about any other class. Many have multiple conditions they can cycle through while also having a reliable way to apply bleeds. All the Mesmer reliably does is bleed now. You can stack vulnerability, but that works better in direct damage builds. Otherwise it’s a intermittent confusion and bleeds.

The other thing is that if you weren’t condition based, the confusion stacks from Trident still mattered. This made Trident useful to power based Mesmers in the same way harpoon is useful to condition Mesmers due to stacking bleeds. Now Trident is very lackluster because bleed stacks are only a very minor part of power-based Mesmer damage.

Snoxx.7943:

As for reliability, confusion is completely unreliable since you can nullify it by simply swimming away. Believe me, there are a lot players who just swim away once getting attacked under water. They react like: “omgosh, someone attacks me and I have no clue how my aquatic skills work, I need to get outta water quick”. Ironically it was impossible to kill them, whereas they should have been the easiest kills because they are absolutely clueless about how to play their char. Now after the changes they die – just as they deserve.

Yeah that Cry of Frustration is totally unreliable since you can nullify it by simply running away. rolls eyes

I wonder how confusion nuke builds work so well, considering how “completely unreliable” confusion is.

ExZee.8109:

Yeah that Cry of Frustration is totally unreliable since you can nullify it by simply running away. rolls eyes

I wonder how confusion nuke builds work so well, considering how “completely unreliable” confusion is.

Not sure if I’m fully understanding the tone of this post – seems sarcastic, though, so I’m going to go with that. :-)

Against a savvy opponent, all confusion does is control their actions for a period of time (not a bad thing, but definitely NOT killing them). A confusion nuke build works really well when you have a button-masher – against someone who understands confusion, all it does is lengthen the fight.

And yes, the confusion damage from Cry of Frustration is completely nullified by running away – if you’re counting on confusion to always do tons of damage, you’re likely in for a rude awakening or two, my friend. ;-)

Back on topic – I’ve seen it posted a few times, but the bleed change to the trident appears to be a good thing to me. Having consistent dmg output (rather than waiting for an opponent/mob to nuke themselves) makes trident work better IMHO. Still, would be nice if the changes would make it into patch notes somewhere…. Bueller? Bueller?

Dhampyr.2104:

ExZee.8109:

Yeah that Cry of Frustration is totally unreliable since you can nullify it by simply running away. rolls eyes

I wonder how confusion nuke builds work so well, considering how “completely unreliable” confusion is.

Not sure if I’m fully understanding the tone of this post – seems sarcastic, though, so I’m going to go with that. :-)

Against a savvy opponent, all confusion does is control their actions for a period of time (not a bad thing, but definitely NOT killing them). A confusion nuke build works really well when you have a button-masher – against someone who understands confusion, all it does is lengthen the fight.

Yeah, against competent players, confusion makes them stop attacking for a few seconds, that’s all. The effect is somewhat similar to Moa Morph. They’ll run away and do a dodge roll or two, until the effect wears off, then back to business.

And no, confusion nuke builds don’t work well. Anyone who think different should go out there and try it. Works only if you’re fighting idiots, and even with the incredible amount of idiots running around in WvW, I wouldn’t call this “reliable”.

PS: I even saw some confusion mesmers (mostly with traited glamour fields) blow itself up after I send them a Cry of Frustration F2 shatter. They should’ve known better, but nooo …

To the poster above me, maybe you should go play a glamour build and see how well it works in all situations, it’s fairly simple to keep confusion on someone to varying degrees almost 100%. Scepter 3 lasts for 8 seconds, with cof lasting 5 seconds. I have been using a glamour build for almost a month now and yes it does blow up people who don’t pay attention, but it also takes out players who know how to play their class as well, it takes longer to kill them but they either die, or run away.

I mainly roam, but imagine defending a keep, throwing down null field, feedback, and veil at a zerg and see the bags rain at your feet while on the wall.

It’s very viable spec and you would be surprised how many people really do blow themselves without paying attention

To the poster above me, I mainly roam and fight glamour builds almost every day. I just counter them by running away until they have blown all their glamour cooldowns for nothing, then I turn around to blow them up.

We are playing Mesmer here, any half decent Mesmer should never get blown up by another Mesmer, we know each others play book. Glam fields are what gives the build a name but just because they are on cool down doesn’t mean you can’t rack on condition/confusion or just play defensively.

Tbh I haven’t ever encountered a condition Mesmer 1v1 in wvw, but i know they are powerful, my duo partner is a condition build Mesmer.

You may know the tricks of how to avoid death, or even kill a glam Mesmer but I promise you that people who haven’t played Mesmer, let alone condition mesmers don’t know how to counter, and don’t stand a chance.

Just saying, don’t count out a build that can massacre most of the game, just because you are good at countering it.

Xelnok.2397:

We are playing Mesmer here, any half decent Mesmer should never get blown up by another Mesmer, we know each others play book. Glam fields are what gives the build a name but just because they are on cool down doesn’t mean you can’t rack on condition/confusion or just play defensively.

Tbh I haven’t ever encountered a condition Mesmer 1v1 in wvw, but i know they are powerful, my duo partner is a condition build Mesmer.

You may know the tricks of how to avoid death, or even kill a glam Mesmer but I promise you that people who haven’t played Mesmer, let alone condition mesmers don’t know how to counter, and don’t stand a chance.

Just saying, don’t count out a build that can massacre most of the game, just because you are good at countering it.

And the ones that don’t know how to counter condition mesmers will call us OP and beg for the nerf bat! I knew this patch was too good to be true! Its coming get ready! Jk. But seriously in a zergy situation being a glam Mesmer is prolly great. But keep in mind we only have a few glamour skills.