Guild Wars 2

With the recent Unload buff, do Illusionary Duelists now hit harder?

Gav.1425:

With the recent Unload buff, do Illusionary Duelists now hit harder?

You win the award for good questions. However it wasn’t in the patch notes so I assume they erroneously did not do this.

Do Illusionary Duelists use Unload or Illusory Unload?

Ghotistyx.6942:

Do Illusionary Duelists use Unload or Illusory Unload?

They use illusionary unload, but that is irrelevant because all the damage associated with the phantasms is modeled after their counterparts.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unload
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Attack
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Defense
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mariner%27s_Frenzy
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deluge
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Backfire (the phantasm version originally applied confusion, now it applies burning that at gives at least a 131 tick per second. When you add in the 244 damage of the projectile you get around 171 damage pers second. This is compared to the 140 damage per spell that backfire would give. And like most phantasms vs reality, the damage is comparable but the non phantasm version is better. The only benefit comes when you use more than one phantasm.)

Even skills they don’t directly model but resemble are objectively better
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast_of_Corruption makes a better staff

The only exception is with sword where it outperforms the skills it resembles, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Savage_Leap and this is probably because it would be too strong on such a low cd on a profession that hadn’t sacrificed half its dps to have phantasms fill in the rest.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Savage_Leap

We need some science here.

@Kent:

The skills are modeled after their counterparts, but if it’s illusionary unload instead of just unload, then it should occupy a separate database entry and probably wouldn’t be accidentally changed. I don’t know for sure though, haven’t tested.

Gav.1425:

We need some science here.

I can try to show math? Not so sure about science.

zerker attacks every 7 seconds and hits 5 targets

4 attacks in whirl each dealing 196(0.55)(power)

whirlwind attack can be performed every 10 seconds and hits 3 targets

4 attacks in whirl each dealing 240(0.67)(power)

with base power of 1000 and a heavies base armor being 2167
4*196*.55*1000 / 2167 / 7 seconds When you adjust for the 3v5 hitting the damage is almost the same.

Fay.2357:

@Kent:

The skills are modeled after their counterparts, but if it’s illusionary unload instead of just unload, then it should occupy a separate database entry and probably wouldn’t be accidentally changed. I don’t know for sure though, haven’t tested.

I know this.

The point I am try to make this that they MUST buff the damage on the duelist, or else they are going against the very logic by which they buffed unload. It the damage doesn’t cut in on the skills we model then our skills must too be changed.

Daniel Handler.4816:

they [Anet] … logic

lol.

But actually…hehe.

Gav.1425:

We need some science here.

Science was done. Nothing changed. Coefficients are still the same.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

they [Anet] … logic

lol.

But actually…hehe.

Fine they are a going against the same paint flung at wall divination.

Don’t bet on mesmer DPS ever being fixed. PvP supremacy at the expense of PvE is here to stay.

They didn’t bother fixing aoe/cleave gutting our illusions and by extension our performance. They didn’t fix shatters being a mechanic that gimps your sustained output, in fact tied a half way solution to a grandmaster instead (chronophantasma).

They gave a pitiful 10% to sword auto while Blurred Frenzy got no change and is just a crappier, immobile version of Unrelenting Assault, and even a weaker version of pistol whip.

The entirety of the class, the fact that no meaningful changes have been made to the garbage that is Cry of Frustration (and confusion for PvE, in fact), is based around considerations of damage against 12-20k hp targets is going to keep mesmer in the gutter of PvE.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I know this.

The point I am try to make this that they MUST buff the damage on the duelist, or else they are going against the very logic by which they buffed unload. It the damage doesn’t cut in on the skills we model then our skills must too be changed.

That’s not how it works. Fay made the point I was trying to make. Even traits that proc an ability technically use a separate skill from what they’re trying to mimic. Phantasms might model their skills from another profession, but Unload and Illusory Unload are very different and separate skills. Changes to original skills don’t affect phantasms and vice versa.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

@Kent:

The skills are modeled after their counterparts, but if it’s illusionary unload instead of just unload, then it should occupy a separate database entry and probably wouldn’t be accidentally changed. I don’t know for sure though, haven’t tested.

I know this.

The point I am try to make this that they MUST buff the damage on the duelist, or else they are going against the very logic by which they buffed unload. It the damage doesn’t cut in on the skills we model then our skills must too be changed.

No they don’t. This is ridiculous logic. Some of the Phantasms may use skills very similar to other professions but they aren’t linked to them.

They balance the Mesmer’s offense based on what the Mesmer can bring to the table. The same for thieves. Thieves got their pistol skills buffed because the pistol set was under performing and they wanted to make it a more attractive option. The Duelist is already an excellent Phantasm and performs well. Any buffs it would require would be because it’s under performing in the Mesmer kit.

Even if by some miracle they increased the iDuelist damage, they’d just nerf it even lower than it was pre-buff a few hours later, so for the love of god stop asking for buffs.

The unload they were talking about was specifically to do with thieves. That was why it was under the thief’s patch notes. Why would anyone think this relates to Mes?

Vague Memory.2817:

The unload they were talking about was specifically to do with thieves. That was why it was under the thief’s patch notes. Why would anyone think this relates to Mes?

Because when the phantasm skills were initially created they modeled the damage after their counterparts. One would think that if the counterparts are ineffective then the skills themselves are also ineffective.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Because when the phantasm skills were initially created they modeled the damage after their counterparts.

Is that a fact?

frifox.5283:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Because when the phantasm skills were initially created they modeled the damage after their counterparts.

Is that a fact?

In a one to one comparison it would seem so. All of the phantasms deal damage roughly equivalent but slightly under their counterparts. If my math is wrong feel free to correct me.

Zenith.7301:

Don’t bet on mesmer DPS ever being fixed. PvP supremacy at the expense of PvE is here to stay.

They didn’t bother fixing aoe/cleave gutting our illusions and by extension our performance. They didn’t fix shatters being a mechanic that gimps your sustained output, in fact tied a half way solution to a grandmaster instead (chronophantasma).

They gave a pitiful 10% to sword auto while Blurred Frenzy got no change and is just a crappier, immobile version of Unrelenting Assault, and even a weaker version of pistol whip.

The entirety of the class, the fact that no meaningful changes have been made to the garbage that is Cry of Frustration (and confusion for PvE, in fact), is based around considerations of damage against 12-20k hp targets is going to keep mesmer in the gutter of PvE.

Yeah I can agree with phantasms needing some way to stay alive longer in pve, but I don’t think sword really needs a buff. Chronomancer is just fine already. Buffing it to give it good damage also would just be a little over the top.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Vague Memory.2817:

The unload they were talking about was specifically to do with thieves. That was why it was under the thief’s patch notes. Why would anyone think this relates to Mes?

Because when the phantasm skills were initially created they modeled the damage after their counterparts. One would think that if the counterparts are ineffective then the skills themselves are also ineffective.

A skill being modeled after another skill doesn’t mean that have to be balanced in tandem. That’s a logical fallacy. You don’t balance skills in a vacuum like that. Thief skills have a whole different recharge mechanic (Initiative) than Mesmer skills do so each kit of skills has to be considered in how it affects the whole profession. The IDuelist can attack every few seconds, you can summon up to 3 of him, you only need equip the pistol as an offhand, etc. Meanwhile the Thief version requires you dual wield pistols and is restricted by the initiative mechanic.

Just because they reused existing animations on Mesmer Phantasms doesn’t equate to them being the same skill.

Dastion.3106:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Vague Memory.2817:

The unload they were talking about was specifically to do with thieves. That was why it was under the thief’s patch notes. Why would anyone think this relates to Mes?

Because when the phantasm skills were initially created they modeled the damage after their counterparts. One would think that if the counterparts are ineffective then the skills themselves are also ineffective.

A skill being modeled after another skill doesn’t mean that have to be balanced in tandem. That’s a logical fallacy. You don’t balance skills in a vacuum like that. Thief skills have a whole different recharge mechanic (Initiative) than Mesmer skills do so each kit of skills has to be considered in how it affects the whole profession. The IDuelist can attack every few seconds, you can summon up to 3 of him, you only need equip the pistol as an offhand, etc. Meanwhile the Thief version requires you dual wield pistols and is restricted by the initiative mechanic.

Just because they reused existing animations on Mesmer Phantasms doesn’t equate to them being the same skill.

T. T but but the damage is so similar for these “animation” counterparts. True I suppose with thief though the cd limit can no longer be used to insure common behavior. I