Guild Wars 2

“We would like to get more build diversity for the Mesmer out there.”

You know, it would be a lot easier to balance build diversity if we could customize our shatter bar.

It’s a lot more difficult to try to balance a single bar working well for every single situation and playstyle than it is to provide a choice of different skills for different situations. Trying to make Mind Wrack viable as both an AoE attack and a single target burst can easily tip towards either side of unbalanced, and making Mind Wrack/Cry of Frustration function for condition builds and power builds is simply inefficient design.

It’s also potentially harmful for us to have our eggs in a single basket. Part of the big concern brought up by the video is the way shatters can do a little bit too much, removing boons/inflicting vulnerability/granting healing/inflicting confusion/AoE damage, all in one ability depending on traits. But we need that level of customization to those abilities, since every Mesmer in every situation is expected to make use of them. Approaching mesmer balance with the simple method of Buff Shatter/Nerf Shatter is extremely dangerous for our profession, since it can lead to a nerfbat taking us out of the competition with one swing.

There are a lot of builds on the site that are extremely well crafted that have found nifty niches within the Mesmer’s utilities and trait system, and it would be excellent if the class mechanic showed them some well deserved tender love and care. If we had ways to customize the class mechanic directly rather than depending entirely on the trait system, it could end being far easier to balance AND provide more love for the different Mesmer playstyles in one fell swoop.

Shriketalon.1937:

“We would like to get more build diversity for the Mesmer out there.”

You know, it would be a lot easier to balance build diversity if we could customize our shatter bar.

It’s a lot more difficult to try to balance a single bar working well for every single situation and playstyle than it is to provide a choice of different skills for different situations. Trying to make Mind Wrack viable as both an AoE attack and a single target burst can easily tip towards either side of unbalanced, and making Mind Wrack/Cry of Frustration function for condition builds and power builds is simply inefficient design.

It’s also potentially harmful for us to have our eggs in a single basket. Part of the big concern brought up by the video is the way shatters can do a little bit too much, removing boons/inflicting vulnerability/granting healing/inflicting confusion/AoE damage, all in one ability depending on traits. But we need that level of customization to those abilities, since every Mesmer in every situation is expected to make use of them. Approaching mesmer balance with the simple method of Buff Shatter/Nerf Shatter is extremely dangerous for our profession, since it can lead to a nerfbat taking us out of the competition with one swing.

There are a lot of builds on the site that are extremely well crafted that have found nifty niches within the Mesmer’s utilities and trait system, and it would be excellent if the class mechanic showed them some well deserved tender love and care. If we had ways to customize the class mechanic directly rather than depending entirely on the trait system, it could end being far easier to balance AND provide more love for the different Mesmer playstyles in one fell swoop.

Your rational arguments have no place on the forums!

Even if it is a good one and makes a lot of sense.

Of course they might just not want to, despite how good of an idea it might be.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Shriketalon.1937:

“We would like to get more build diversity for the Mesmer out there.”

You know, it would be a lot easier to balance build diversity if we could customize our shatter bar.

It’s a lot more difficult to try to balance a single bar working well for every single situation and playstyle than it is to provide a choice of different skills for different situations. Trying to make Mind Wrack viable as both an AoE attack and a single target burst can easily tip towards either side of unbalanced, and making Mind Wrack/Cry of Frustration function for condition builds and power builds is simply inefficient design.

It’s also potentially harmful for us to have our eggs in a single basket. Part of the big concern brought up by the video is the way shatters can do a little bit too much, removing boons/inflicting vulnerability/granting healing/inflicting confusion/AoE damage, all in one ability depending on traits. But we need that level of customization to those abilities, since every Mesmer in every situation is expected to make use of them. Approaching mesmer balance with the simple method of Buff Shatter/Nerf Shatter is extremely dangerous for our profession, since it can lead to a nerfbat taking us out of the competition with one swing.

There are a lot of builds on the site that are extremely well crafted that have found nifty niches within the Mesmer’s utilities and trait system, and it would be excellent if the class mechanic showed them some well deserved tender love and care. If we had ways to customize the class mechanic directly rather than depending entirely on the trait system, it could end being far easier to balance AND provide more love for the different Mesmer playstyles in one fell swoop.

Your rational arguments have no place on the forums!

Even if it is a good one and makes a lot of sense.

Of course they might just not want to, despite how good of an idea it might be.

They hire people to make those decisions, and perhaps have their own solutions. I have heard that companies are loath to take player suggestions for fear of royalty demands.

Agreed
don’t Break what isn’t broken and at the moment mesmer is far from broken
Just fix our known bugs And then look at making the other professions as good as this one. Theres a lot of anti mesmerism out there because the other proffessions are broken – not because mesmers are op
sorry for my cynicism, more a g.d. got owned by a player mesmer in pvp/wvw and decided the only way to beat mesmer is to nerf

Edit: Having played and lvled mesmer makes it a lot easier to know how to deal with them – but not every profession has a good set of tools for the job

Mere Image.8376:

I saw this coming months ago. Started leveling a warrior, because apparently 20k hits with one skill isn’t OP in PvE while the nerf everything else.

So did i LoL.

Grounder.7381:

jportell.2197:

Grounder.7381:

30% dmg nerf on mindwrack!!
i called it!!

Oh god I hope not.. But if that happens everyone and their mom that still plays Mesmer isn’t even touching the GS anymore and we are all going for the immortal build lol.

hahaha.. yeah! that might just happen to all the mesmer “survivor” of the SoTG.
behind the roundbout things bout beam and all.. i think they are trying to nerf shatter!
if i recall correct ,mesmer shatter has the “deal 100% more dmg” bug.. that’s been undetected since beta,..
so maybe were looking at, nerf 50% all shatter dmg.. as in, “fix the bug that let shatter deals extra dmg” or “shatter dmg has now follow the tooltip”.
from my opinion though, shatter are the only burst dmg we have. all others are just summons.. and its dmg aren’t that OP…
we might be hit with the nerf hammer the hardest out of all classes after SoTG.
i think piercing beams are the compensations for it….

That’s a bug? I have not seen anyone say anything about that bug anywhere… And if I’m not traited full shatter then the damage from shatters kinda sucks… The nicest way to get a good burst in is to hit diversion first then mindwrack… Really helpful in a 20/20/0/0/30 build. And the piercing beams is a lame compensation and depends on mesmers using those two weapons which not all of them do…

jportell.2197:

And the piercing beams is a lame compensation and depends on mesmers using those two weapons which not all of them do…

I think that is the point though… They are still trying for build diversity. If they make GS and Scepter more appealing, more people will use them.

Vyce.2014:

jportell.2197:

And the piercing beams is a lame compensation and depends on mesmers using those two weapons which not all of them do…

I think that is the point though… They are still trying for build diversity. If they make GS and Scepter more appealing, more people will use them.

Yes but the wind up on confusing images is insane and the strangest things interrupt it. And the GS beam while cool… Is still dependent on people standing in a straight line between you and your target and in pvp ha yeah right. So the buffs to these weapons will still be meh at best.

jportell.2197:

Vyce.2014:

jportell.2197:

And the piercing beams is a lame compensation and depends on mesmers using those two weapons which not all of them do…

I think that is the point though… They are still trying for build diversity. If they make GS and Scepter more appealing, more people will use them.

Yes but the wind up on confusing images is insane and the strangest things interrupt it. And the GS beam while cool… Is still dependent on people standing in a straight line between you and your target and in pvp ha yeah right. So the buffs to these weapons will still be meh at best.

And in a month or so, they’ll rip that ability away. Why, you ask? Because by then, they’ll have seen what happens when someone uses GS with either Nevhie’s MSS Build, or a 30/30/0/0/10 GC Mantra/DPS spread. Let alone a Glamourbombing Condi-mes and Confusing Images. If anything, they really need to see what shatter
damage is up against, and figure out a middle-of-the-road response.
Then again, for all we know, they could shave shatter by -say- 10-20% and we’d
still get by with a majority of what we used to toss out on folks, shatter-wise.
Honestly, the shatter busines is why I wish they’d stuck more with the original design
of Mesmers. Then, it’d be more about how we can cancel someone else’s damage
potential, instead of trying to be DPS ourselves.

I dont think Anet will nerf shatter for only 5-10%… cause when they nerf something the usually break it like 50% damage reduction……….
i hope im wrong.

Having actually listened to the interview now, I have some comments.

1) Xeph broached the question poorly. Any good Mesmer should know to differentiate IP Shattering with non-IP Shattering, they are too different in damage/utility potential to just lump into a basic “Shatter is too powerful” comment.

2) Xeph backed them into a corner where they had only one logical answer. That being that the Mesmer, who is heavily reliant on Shattering for AoE damage, is receiving more AoE on their weapons. Therefore, Shatter may need to be tweaked for balance… Nothing was said one way or the other, it’s simply a logical vague response that can be attributed to just about any change. You add somewhere, you may need to take away elsewhere.

3) Did anyone else notice that just as the Mesmer portion began Karl seemed to be asking Jon for permission to talk about something and was told emphatically “No.” ? I can’t help but wonder what kind of changes are on the horizon.

All in all, IF they do nerf Shattering.. Hopefully they do it to the build and not the base mechanic. Nerfing Mental Torment or adjusting it to reduce it’s effect on MW while having it also boost COF might be a better route.

@Dastion:
There is only one critical overstep and flaw in your summation that renders your argument completely invalid: It prevents brilliant posts on the forums such as “they are going to destroy my shatter build!” and “now that they are nerfing shatters to the ground” from having any merit. Therefore, you, as I was, must be wrong or cynicism and unproven certainty would not prevail.

I think it would be stupid to nerf our most reliable AoE damage (or one of) for a less appealing line aoe damage. The gains wouldn’t be enough to justify the losses. Lining peopple up like that will only be useful in ZvZ in my opinion. Shatters are fine. If anything, other builds should be raised to that level, because they need the attention much more. :/

Xeph has a point, Shattering does too much, while everything else does too little.

The benefit of putting 30 points in Illusions boosts our class mechanic by an immense amount, that far outweigh any other option from a pure min/max balance standpoint.

Let’s assume 0 points in Illusion, and look at Cry of Frustration. It is immensely weak.
3 Stacks of Confusion, Minor damage, assuming all land.

(Yes, I know, Why would you use it without specializing in the tree that gives +Condi Damage as well, besides the point…)

How about 15 points in Illusion?
Mind Wrack , and Diversion is now as potent at stacking Confusion as the 0 Point Cry of Frustration.

Cry of Frustration now has a 100% increase in potency, that’s a fairly small investment for a massive increase to one of our class mechanic abilities.

I’ll not even touch IP, or how impactful that skill is.

I feel if anything, Our class mechanic abilities, Mind Wrack, Cry of Frustration in particular should be buffed. Now now, Don’t get me wrong. I’m not suggesting buffing our already highly dominant Illusion trait tree.

The core mechanics of it should be increased, promoting the mechanics outside of builds revolving around 30 points in Illusions.

While the Illusion traits themselves are reduced in potency an equal amount (So we break even for those investing 30 points.)

thetarot.8246:

Xeph has a point, Shattering does too much, while everything else does too little.

The benefit of putting 30 points in Illusions boosts our class mechanic by an immense amount, that far outweigh any other option from a pure min/max balance standpoint.

Let’s assume 0 points in Illusion, and look at Cry of Frustration. It is immensely weak.
3 Stacks of Confusion, Minor damage, assuming all land.

(Yes, I know, Why would you use it without specializing in the tree that gives +Condi Damage as well, besides the point…)

How about 15 points in Illusion?
Mind Wrack , and Diversion is now as potent at stacking Confusion as the 0 Point Cry of Frustration.

Cry of Frustration now has a 100% increase in potency, that’s a fairly small investment for a massive increase to one of our class mechanic abilities.

I’ll not even touch IP, or how impactful that skill is.

I feel if anything, Our class mechanic abilities, Mind Wrack, Cry of Frustration in particular should be buffed. Now now, Don’t get me wrong. I’m not suggesting buffing our already highly dominant Illusion trait tree.

The core mechanics of it should be increased, promoting the mechanics outside of builds revolving around 30 points in Illusions.

While the Illusion traits themselves are reduced in potency an equal amount (So we break even for those investing 30 points.)

This is the point everyone is getting at, nerf the build – not the base mechanic – hell, bring up the base mechanic a bit. The problem most people have is that Xeph asked the question from a typical outsider view point of “Shatter is too powerful it does everything, you should nerf it if you’re allowing the Greatsword to pierce enemies otherwise Mesmers will destroy everyone from a million miles away” (Paraphrased, but that’s the gist of it). As a proclaimed Mesmer player I’d expect the question to have been asked properly rather than sounding like your typical “It’s OP!” forum post.

The base Mesmer mechanic is rather weak and unreliable. Once you spec into Illusions and gain Illusionary Persona the mechanic becomes incredibly more reliable since you’re always getting that 1 Illusion effect no matter what, it’s especially helpful with Distortion and Diversion. If you’re in a melee range (and you really should be if you’re trying to Mind Wrack burst) then IP with a single lllusion does nearly as much damage (within a few percent) as a 3 Illusion Mind Wrack does without the trait.

On top of that, we have Mental Torment adding 20% bonus to Mind Wrack and Illusionary Retribution which essentially gives CoF’s effect to Mind Wrack and further increases upon COF’s effect by 100% (as you said).

Iruwen.3164:

Aberrant.6749:

As far as people needing to “line up” just pew pew into a crowd and you’ll do massive damage.

5 Stacks of confusion on 5 people isn’t actually “massive”, even at the 1800 condition damage I’m currently at. Plus it’s channeled and only 900 range. If the enemies aren’t stupid or aoe cleansed, it’ll do pretty much nothing and will only work in WvW zergs. It’s a nice addition, but it doesn’t really improve the scepter in general.

Confusion does much more damage than it should in some areas… it was buffed a long time ago to accommodate how much less frequently the mobs attack vs. a player… but in WvW it does the PvE (buffed) damage to everything regardless.

Here is the math behind confusion damage:

PvE and WvW: 10 + (1.5 * Level) + (0.15 * Condition Damage) per stack
sPvP: 65 + (0.075 * Condition Damage) per stack

In WvW @ 1,800 cond dmg that’s 400 per stack per attack… so 2k per every single attack with 5 stacks… and then it can hit up to 5 targets…

In sPvP it’s far more toned down. @ 1,800 it would be 200 per attack… 1k with 5 stacks… so it’s half what it is in WvW…

Confusion in PvE almost always sucks though (other than when the mob has haste and starts spamming etc.)… I’ll agree with that if that’s what you’re trying to say.

Scepter auto and block still suck as well… 100% agreed. Scepter needs some love, but this is the wrong kind of love for scepter.

IMO confusion could really use some tweaking to be a little bit more potent in PvE but less in WvW… it seems about right in sPvP to me.

This just seems like a bad way to try to buff scepter all around.

Unless you’re a PvE only player… still a ton of condition damage…

The chance it’ll get cleared is part of the price you pay for having it ignore toughness… like with all conditions.

Aberrant.6749:

Iruwen.3164:

Aberrant.6749:

As far as people needing to “line up” just pew pew into a crowd and you’ll do massive damage.

5 Stacks of confusion on 5 people isn’t actually “massive”, even at the 1800 condition damage I’m currently at. Plus it’s channeled and only 900 range. If the enemies aren’t stupid or aoe cleansed, it’ll do pretty much nothing and will only work in WvW zergs. It’s a nice addition, but it doesn’t really improve the scepter in general.

Confusion does much more damage than it should in some areas… it was buffed a long time ago to accommodate how much less frequently the mobs attack vs. a player… but in WvW it does the PvE (buffed) damage to everything regardless.

Here is the math behind confusion damage:

PvE and WvW: 10 + (1.5 * Level) + (0.15 * Condition Damage) per stack
sPvP: 65 + (0.075 * Condition Damage) per stack

In WvW @ 1,800 cond dmg that’s 400 per stack per attack… so 2k per every single attack with 5 stacks… and then it can hit up to 5 targets…

In sPvP it’s far more toned down. @ 1,800 it would be 200 per attack… 1k with 5 stacks… so it’s half what it is in WvW…

Confusion in PvE almost always sucks though (other than when the mob has haste and starts spamming etc.)… I’ll agree with that if that’s what you’re trying to say.

Scepter auto and block still suck as well… 100% agreed. Scepter needs some love, but this is the wrong kind of love for scepter.

IMO confusion could really use some tweaking to be a little bit more potent in PvE but less in WvW… it seems about right in sPvP to me.

This just seems like a bad way to try to buff scepter all around.

Unless you’re a PvE only player… still a ton of condition damage…

The chance it’ll get cleared is part of the price you pay for having it ignore toughness… like with all conditions.

Confusion dmg getting doubled in WVW makes sense because you also have to consider the fact that in WVW there’s a much much greater “diversifying” effect when it comes to dealing with confusion. There’s a greater number of people there; thus, greater possibility of getting “cleansed” by some random allies. And since the attack itself has a very short duration, it is rational to boost up its damage to compensate for the risk full confusion mesmers have to bare.

As a person who has been rolling with full confusion build for months, getting someone killed solely by my confusion in a non-zerg situation is rare. And usually, once my enemies got attacked by confusion and didn’t die in the first attempt, they would run away, put condition cleaners in their slots and come back for me. This immediately made almost every class unkillable.

So yeah, I think confusion is right at where it’s supposed to be. Not talking about PVE, of course.

TLDR -> Iirc none of the other conditions get buffed up 2x in WvW and they have that same drawback (please feel free tell me if there is another one… I don’t PvE much)

I really see no issues with how the rest are… having plaid many condition builds on many classes (the ones I haven’t plaid extensively may have issues I’m just ignorant of).

Downing a player with just one condition is hard regardless of the condition…. try killing some one with a p/d thief when they even have something that cleanses 1 condition >.<

I’m very thankfully that my mes doesn’t have that issue because of the number of conditions she can apply. Even the vuln on staff auto attack is useful in that way. It helps sort of protect the others from things like that (despite being kinda wimpy in a condition damage build).

The duration isn’t shorter than what some other classes can apply… it can be a bit harder to re-apply, but imo that’s made up for by how it heavily punishes people by putting them in a much harder position than just a bleed by forcing them to take fewer/no actions. It’s very much a kittened if you do kittened if you don’t situation… and that’s the beauty of confusion and why it’s great and I love it on my mes and it totally works with the good for me bad for you theme.

But those buffed numbers are meant for the rate in which PvE mobs attack and are too high for PvP… as shown by how it wasn’t increased in sPvP.

I don’t think the difference between sPvP and WvW as far as conditions go is that large. You have more/fewer conditions being applied and more/fewer being cleansed (WvW/sPvP respectively) so it evens out fairly well.

So I really don’t see why only confusion should do twice the damage in an area in which it excels (again if there is another feel free to tell me).

IMO it’s just something that came along with WvW having PvE rules and really should be looked at for balance (inb4 balance in WvW = ahahaha… no). I wouldn’t mind if they made my mes do less confusion damage than it does now to players… so that it would be on part with the reasoning of why it’s like that in the other player vs. player parts of the game. To me it just seems more balanced that way… but we’re starting to get off topic now lol.

My main point of the other post was that increasing the potential damage of a skill 5x is too much… and doesn’t address any of the other problems with that weapon. It’s very much like how shatters are good… but other areas of mesmer are lacking. This seems to be a very common problem across all classes and most weapons.

I don’t feel that changes like this are going to help fix scepter. Buffs like this really shouldn’t happen all at once (same thing with large nerfs). It should be done bit by bit… and not taking one part of something from 1-10 and ignoring the rest. It should have gotten smaller buffs to all 3 until it was a solid all around weapon.

Confusion Damage isn’t “doubled” in WvW, It’s unchanged. It’s only in sPvP that it’s changed, and I have not seen a confusion build in sPvP in a long while. Likely being Condition Damage from a mesmer, via staff is highly unreliable. An Engineer does everything they can do, better. (Pry Bar, Pistol 3) and no, I’m not saying Engineer is in a good spot because of it. They could use some buffs.

Confusion isn’t the only thing unchanged either. All runes, Lyssa for example, are not nerfed like they are in sPvP. (Hello all buffs instead of just 3 at half duration) You also have things like Sigil of Generosity (On Crit, transfer condition) which is amazing.

Confusion built mesmers also have to contend with (aside more AoE cleanses) – Food buffs. Lemongrass Poultry can reduce all condition duration by 40%.

In a group WvW situation that’s meaningless, but in a small skirmish, or 1v1 it’s massive. Sure the mesmer can run Rare Veggie Pizza to counteract, and probably is, as it’s the only way to give Confusion a decent duration, but all his other outgoing conditions are obliterated. As they mostly come from clones.

Staff clones, Bleeds now last 3 seconds (From 5), Burning lasts 0.6 seconds (Not enough time to actually deal damage)

When you see a zerg running 5 Glamour Confusion mesmers and Immediately stacking 20 Stacks of Confusion on people, via Null Field, Feedback, and Temporal Curtain (for pulling them back into the effect to put more stacks) is when Confusion gets out of hand.

Aberrant.6749:

TLDR -> Iirc none of the other conditions get buffed up 2x in WvW and they have that same drawback (please feel free tell me if there is another one… I don’t PvE much)

I really see no issues with how the rest are… having plaid many condition builds on many classes (the ones I haven’t plaid extensively may have issues I’m just ignorant of).

Downing a player with just one condition is hard regardless of the condition…. try killing some one with a p/d thief when they even have something that cleanses 1 condition >.<

I’m very thankfully that my mes doesn’t have that issue because of the number of conditions she can apply. Even the vuln on staff auto attack is useful in that way. It helps sort of protect the others from things like that (despite being kinda wimpy in a condition damage build).

The duration isn’t shorter than what some other classes can apply… it can be a bit harder to re-apply, but imo that’s made up for by how it heavily punishes people by putting them in a much harder position than just a bleed by forcing them to take fewer/no actions. It’s very much a kittened if you do kittened if you don’t situation… and that’s the beauty of confusion and why it’s great and I love it on my mes and it totally works with the good for me bad for you theme.

But those buffed numbers are meant for the rate in which PvE mobs attack and are too high for PvP… as shown by how it wasn’t increased in sPvP.

I don’t think the difference between sPvP and WvW as far as conditions go is that large. You have more/fewer conditions being applied and more/fewer being cleansed (WvW/sPvP respectively) so it evens out fairly well.

So I really don’t see why only confusion should do twice the damage in an area in which it excels (again if there is another feel free to tell me).

IMO it’s just something that came along with WvW having PvE rules and really should be looked at for balance (inb4 balance in WvW = ahahaha… no). I wouldn’t mind if they made my mes do less confusion damage than it does now to players… so that it would be on part with the reasoning of why it’s like that in the other player vs. player parts of the game. To me it just seems more balanced that way… but we’re starting to get off topic now lol.

My main point of the other post was that increasing the potential damage of a skill 5x is too much… and doesn’t address any of the other problems with that weapon. It’s very much like how shatters are good… but other areas of mesmer are lacking. This seems to be a very common problem across all classes and most weapons.

I don’t feel that changes like this are going to help fix scepter. Buffs like this really shouldn’t happen all at once (same thing with large nerfs). It should be done bit by bit… and not taking one part of something from 1-10 and ignoring the rest. It should have gotten smaller buffs to all 3 until it was a solid all around weapon.

Confusion is a burst, you kaboom your enemies with 8 stacks and you have to wait for 30-40 seconds until you can do that again. The stacks last very short for such CD. Other conditions are much more easily applied and at a much higher rate.

thetarot.8246:

Confusion Damage isn’t “doubled” in WvW, It’s unchanged. It’s only in sPvP that it’s changed, and I have not seen a confusion build in sPvP in a long while. Likely being Condition Damage from a mesmer, via staff is highly unreliable. An Engineer does everything they can do, better. (Pry Bar, Pistol 3) and no, I’m not saying Engineer is in a good spot because of it. They could use some buffs.

Confusion isn’t the only thing unchanged either. All runes, Lyssa for example, are not nerfed like they are in sPvP. (Hello all buffs instead of just 3 at half duration) You also have things like Sigil of Generosity (On Crit, transfer condition) which is amazing.

Confusion built mesmers also have to contend with (aside more AoE cleanses) – Food buffs. Lemongrass Poultry can reduce all condition duration by 40%.

In a group WvW situation that’s meaningless, but in a small skirmish, or 1v1 it’s massive. Sure the mesmer can run Rare Veggie Pizza to counteract, and probably is, as it’s the only way to give Confusion a decent duration, but all his other outgoing conditions are obliterated. As they mostly come from clones.

Staff clones, Bleeds now last 3 seconds (From 5), Burning lasts 0.6 seconds (Not enough time to actually deal damage)

When you see a zerg running 5 Glamour Confusion mesmers and Immediately stacking 20 Stacks of Confusion on people, via Null Field, Feedback, and Temporal Curtain (for pulling them back into the effect to put more stacks) is when Confusion gets out of hand.

And again, confusion dmg in pve/wvw got doubled. Read patch note.

On top of that…
1. Never seen 5 glamour mesmers running together. And pretty sure it’s not gonna happen. No one is dedicated enough to devote their build for highly cooperated team play like that and give up their entire solo capability. How many full confusion mesmers have you seen in a random zerg so far? Let alone being glamour build.

2. Again, diversification effect.

thetarot.8246:

Confusion Damage isn’t “doubled” in WvW, It’s unchanged. It’s only in sPvP that it’s changed, and I have not seen a confusion build in sPvP in a long while.

Technically, it was changed for PVE/WVW. Confusion used to do the same damage it does in sPVP through all game modes, but was buffed for PVE content to roughly double its former damage. Doesn’t change the current situation, I know, but there seemed to be some confusion in Anet’s logic for how the condition is balanced. TBH, it’s just… not.

And I don’t think it’s a major issue with the condition itself (I like how it works), but more of how mobs react in PVE. Good luck getting that changed, so we’ll probably see some kind of band aid fix if we see anything at all.

Confusion just needs a general re-thinking. I really like the idea of a self-extending short-duration discharge-limited condition. This would allow an opponent to select between incoming damage vs short-duration silence for themselves. At the same time it’s duration would extend massively in PvE, making it much more useful there.

DavyMcB.1603:

thetarot.8246:

Confusion Damage isn’t “doubled” in WvW, It’s unchanged. It’s only in sPvP that it’s changed, and I have not seen a confusion build in sPvP in a long while. Likely being Condition Damage from a mesmer, via staff is highly unreliable. An Engineer does everything they can do, better. (Pry Bar, Pistol 3) and no, I’m not saying Engineer is in a good spot because of it. They could use some buffs.

Confusion isn’t the only thing unchanged either. All runes, Lyssa for example, are not nerfed like they are in sPvP. (Hello all buffs instead of just 3 at half duration) You also have things like Sigil of Generosity (On Crit, transfer condition) which is amazing.

Confusion built mesmers also have to contend with (aside more AoE cleanses) – Food buffs. Lemongrass Poultry can reduce all condition duration by 40%.

In a group WvW situation that’s meaningless, but in a small skirmish, or 1v1 it’s massive. Sure the mesmer can run Rare Veggie Pizza to counteract, and probably is, as it’s the only way to give Confusion a decent duration, but all his other outgoing conditions are obliterated. As they mostly come from clones.

Staff clones, Bleeds now last 3 seconds (From 5), Burning lasts 0.6 seconds (Not enough time to actually deal damage)

When you see a zerg running 5 Glamour Confusion mesmers and Immediately stacking 20 Stacks of Confusion on people, via Null Field, Feedback, and Temporal Curtain (for pulling them back into the effect to put more stacks) is when Confusion gets out of hand.

And again, confusion dmg in pve/wvw got doubled. Read patch note.

On top of that…
1. Never seen 5 glamour mesmers running together. And pretty sure it’s not gonna happen. No one is dedicated enough to devote their build for highly cooperated team play like that and give up their entire solo capability. How many full confusion mesmers have you seen in a random zerg so far? Let alone being glamour build.

2. Again, diversification effect.

I run a full glamour confusion mesmer in WvW, have for a while. I win solo a lot more than I lose…people forget that builds in this game do offer some bonuses but you can have what is considered the “best” build for your class…and still be a kitten player and lose. ex. 100b warriors who mash the keys while someone stun breaks and laughs at them.(not saying 100b is the best just an ex)

On the note of the shatter damage, I say nerf it more but let my clones insta teleport to the enemy and shatter and have a tell on the mesmer(some form of an animation) that give people the time to dodge it, set up blocks, etc.

TBH I find it insulting how you bashed glamour/conf mesmer..if you cant run it or have beaten it that doesn’t mean its lost all of its solo capability and when i run with a zerg seeing those 4k damage ticks on just putting glamour into a fight(with no coordination on my part just spamming it) is great..so in a 1vs1 or where im actually giving a crap where my glamour goes makes it deadly…

What xeph talked about was how shatters can do damage, remove boons, and heal the Mesmer, He made it sound like all mesmers get this at once… Which is just not true… you have go 30 points into the grand master tree and people only go into that tree to get the phantasmal strength minor trait. I don’t think I have seen a build/guide/ or had a friend that goes 30 points into inspiration… And the removing a boon on hit is nice… But if the person is running GS or torch then chances are they aren’t running the remove boon on hit shatter. Or they could be running crippling dissipation to help catch runners… In all honesty I say completely remove the shattered concentration trait.. Bring harmonious mantras down from grand master and replace it with whatever the hell they want that will likely never get used. This would do two things… It would be the slight nerf to shatters they had discussed without completely nuking the builds and would make mantra’s a more viable option to people and it would allow us to have better condition cleansing (mantra of resolve used 3 times not 2)

how about something that speeds us up.

right now condition mesmer = switfness on heal runes.
shatter mesmer = swiftness on heal runes.
whatever…. swifness on heal runes

you took one whole aspect of the game and gearing away from us by giving us no options in rune choice.

nerfing shatter with no fix to i leap is garbage. you are going to take away our damage before you fix our damage? i agree shatter builds are good on a flat surface. if you want to nerf a shatter build all you need to do is put more hills in the game because that completely breaks i leap.

if you nerf shatter before you fix izerker that is garbage also. take responsibility for your mistakes and fix them.

the speed that you fixed prestiege + the lack of speed to fix izerker leads me to think you are catering to people who complain about a class more then you are to the people who actually play the class.

zaxon.6819:

how about something that speeds us up.

right now condition mesmer = switfness on heal runes.
shatter mesmer = swiftness on heal runes.
whatever…. swifness on heal runes

you took one whole aspect of the game and gearing away from us by giving us no options in rune choice.

nerfing shatter with no fix to i leap is garbage. you are going to take away our damage before you fix our damage? i agree shatter builds are good on a flat surface. if you want to nerf a shatter build all you need to do is put more hills in the game because that completely breaks i leap.

if you nerf shatter before you fix izerker that is garbage also. take responsibility for your mistakes and fix them.

the speed that you fixed prestiege + the lack of speed to fix izerker leads me to think you are catering to people who complain about a class more then you are to the people who actually play the class.

^pretty much this post this in the izerker bug report thread in the bug forums too Hopefully that gets read by the powers that be more than here.

Geikamir.6329:

I am personally pretty excited about the GS skill change. I think it’s gonna be awesome. But I’m majnly thinking of sPvP.

you won’t be very happy when you’ll see a significant damage decrease just because now Spatial Surge is aoe.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Geikamir.6329:

I am personally pretty excited about the GS skill change. I think it’s gonna be awesome. But I’m majnly thinking of sPvP.

you won’t be very happy when you’ll see a significant damage decrease just because now Spatial Surge is aoe.

This is a poorly thought out statement, just like Xeph’s reactions. It is entirely possible, and likely, for a profession to have adequate single target damage but be lacking in area damage potential. In that case, adding more AoE damage to the profession doesn’t increase their single target damage, so why would that aspect now need to be nerfed? Such a nerf would be illogical.

That’s kind of like deciding your sweater isn’t warm enough for the cold so you go get a jacket, and to ‘balance’ out adding the jacket you take your pants off too.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Geikamir.6329:

I am personally pretty excited about the GS skill change. I think it’s gonna be awesome. But I’m majnly thinking of sPvP.

you won’t be very happy when you’ll see a significant damage decrease just because now Spatial Surge is aoe.

They didn’t say they would be nerfing shatter damage this patch.

They said (in responce to Xeph) “We might have to shave a little bit off of the shatter damage. So we’re going to watch for that.”

That doesn’t sound like it’ll be in this patch (at the least) from the wording that they used.

It’s @ 49m in if you want to go and listen to it again.

Seriously… idk how everyone heard a player suggestion and took a “idk maybe” type of answer from the team as saying it’ll certainly happen.

I’ve seen people worried about it in map/guild chats. So relax for now and just wait and see everything they do but mesmer should be safe….

For now….

Muwahahahahahahahahaha <- evil genius laugh

that same kid(xefp) said that the only spec people play is shattercat build..

how was he sent there to represent mesmers thinking like that.

out of any class i would think mesmers have a good amount of specs to chose from,

I also don’t understand why Spatial Surge on gs is getting buffed when it’s mind stab on gs that needs the love… I seriously can’t remember the last time I was in a situation where I had a use for that skill…

Dastion.3106:

Having actually listened to the interview now, I have some comments.

1) Xeph broached the question poorly. Any good Mesmer should know to differentiate IP Shattering with non-IP Shattering, they are too different in damage/utility potential to just lump into a basic “Shatter is too powerful” comment.

2) Xeph backed them into a corner where they had only one logical answer. That being that the Mesmer, who is heavily reliant on Shattering for AoE damage, is receiving more AoE on their weapons. Therefore, Shatter may need to be tweaked for balance… Nothing was said one way or the other, it’s simply a logical vague response that can be attributed to just about any change. You add somewhere, you may need to take away elsewhere.

3) Did anyone else notice that just as the Mesmer portion began Karl seemed to be asking Jon for permission to talk about something and was told emphatically “No.” ? I can’t help but wonder what kind of changes are on the horizon.

All in all, IF they do nerf Shattering.. Hopefully they do it to the build and not the base mechanic. Nerfing Mental Torment or adjusting it to reduce it’s effect on MW while having it also boost COF might be a better route.

Finally watched the whole interview. Xeph’s approach in general seemed “buff me, nerf everyone else”—or just seemed that way because he gets a little excited when he talks about profession mechanics he finds OP. So you’re right. It seems like they’re defending mesmer gameplay in context.

I’m a little discouraged that none of the interviewers played or prepared for Necro. That’s for another forum.

Dastion.3106:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Geikamir.6329:

I am personally pretty excited about the GS skill change. I think it’s gonna be awesome. But I’m majnly thinking of sPvP.

you won’t be very happy when you’ll see a significant damage decrease just because now Spatial Surge is aoe.

This is a poorly thought out statement, just like Xeph’s reactions. It is entirely possible, and likely, for a profession to have adequate single target damage but be lacking in area damage potential. In that case, adding more AoE damage to the profession doesn’t increase their single target damage, so why would that aspect now need to be nerfed? Such a nerf would be illogical.

That’s kind of like deciding your sweater isn’t warm enough for the cold so you go get a jacket, and to ‘balance’ out adding the jacket you take your pants off too.

how many people have you seen wanting Spatial Surge to be updated? None. For months (since game was launched) everyone wants Mind Stab to be changed but they change a skill no asked to. Its a ‘nerf’ to Spatial Surge, wait and see.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Dastion.3106:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Geikamir.6329:

I am personally pretty excited about the GS skill change. I think it’s gonna be awesome. But I’m majnly thinking of sPvP.

you won’t be very happy when you’ll see a significant damage decrease just because now Spatial Surge is aoe.

This is a poorly thought out statement, just like Xeph’s reactions. It is entirely possible, and likely, for a profession to have adequate single target damage but be lacking in area damage potential. In that case, adding more AoE damage to the profession doesn’t increase their single target damage, so why would that aspect now need to be nerfed? Such a nerf would be illogical.

That’s kind of like deciding your sweater isn’t warm enough for the cold so you go get a jacket, and to ‘balance’ out adding the jacket you take your pants off too.

how many people have you seen wanting Spatial Surge to be updated? None. For months (since game was launched) everyone wants Mind Stab to be changed but they change a skill no asked to. Its a ‘nerf’ to Spatial Surge, wait and see.

Apples to Oranges. Just because they make an unexpected change doesn’t mean it will result in a nerf. This isn’t even a Mesmer specific change, it’s a change to all ray skills.

Developers often make changes in unsuspected ways. Mind Stab (which we know is at least getting renamed) still needs some usability fixes. Maybe with AoE added to Spatial Surge they’ll make Mind Stab into it’s older single target version. Who knows.

If you pay attention to the video, when Mesmers came up there was an obvious brief edit done that skips a part of the interview, Karl had just asked Jon a question that the skip caused us to miss but we hear the emphatic ‘No’. So odds are there are other changes that were not ready to be revealed.

P.S. And I’ve personally always wanted Spatial Surge changed. I once suggested they change it into a chain attack with the first two attacks being a sword slash that sends out an arc of energy at your target while also striking enemies in front of the Mesmer with the physical sword slash, with the third attack being spatial surge. That idea kept is as a ranged attack that dealt more single target damage from range, but added the bonus of AoE damage when in close proximity.

There is something to be said about builds in the top most tiers of tPvP, and since the entire SoTG was based about the sPvP aspects of the game that is where they will focus their thoughts. For tPvP play in the highest levels it’s true, you will almost never see a non Shatter centric build being played, it’ll have 30 points in Illusions and the rest where ever (but probably 20 Dom, 20 Duel).

This is what the developers want to change, but to do so they would need to buff other areas. From what I could glean from the way the developers were responding in the interview, it would appear that they are fairly content with where Shatter based builds are right now, the real question would be how to bring the other builds up to that level.

They shifted their focus to Mantras and making those more playable, leaning towards the traits that affect them and perhaps the cast times of them too. This is not a bad idea by any means and something that could open more doors, making the 30 point traits stronger could also help direct players a bit more. There are many options, and much they could do to fix these issues.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Dastion.3106:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Geikamir.6329:

I am personally pretty excited about the GS skill change. I think it’s gonna be awesome. But I’m majnly thinking of sPvP.

you won’t be very happy when you’ll see a significant damage decrease just because now Spatial Surge is aoe.

This is a poorly thought out statement, just like Xeph’s reactions. It is entirely possible, and likely, for a profession to have adequate single target damage but be lacking in area damage potential. In that case, adding more AoE damage to the profession doesn’t increase their single target damage, so why would that aspect now need to be nerfed? Such a nerf would be illogical.

That’s kind of like deciding your sweater isn’t warm enough for the cold so you go get a jacket, and to ‘balance’ out adding the jacket you take your pants off too.

how many people have you seen wanting Spatial Surge to be updated? None. For months (since game was launched) everyone wants Mind Stab to be changed but they change a skill no asked to. Its a ‘nerf’ to Spatial Surge, wait and see.

Mind Stab, or whatever they change it to, is already slated for an update this patch.

Gaiawolf.8261:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Dastion.3106:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Geikamir.6329:

I am personally pretty excited about the GS skill change. I think it’s gonna be awesome. But I’m majnly thinking of sPvP.

you won’t be very happy when you’ll see a significant damage decrease just because now Spatial Surge is aoe.

This is a poorly thought out statement, just like Xeph’s reactions. It is entirely possible, and likely, for a profession to have adequate single target damage but be lacking in area damage potential. In that case, adding more AoE damage to the profession doesn’t increase their single target damage, so why would that aspect now need to be nerfed? Such a nerf would be illogical.

That’s kind of like deciding your sweater isn’t warm enough for the cold so you go get a jacket, and to ‘balance’ out adding the jacket you take your pants off too.

how many people have you seen wanting Spatial Surge to be updated? None. For months (since game was launched) everyone wants Mind Stab to be changed but they change a skill no asked to. Its a ‘nerf’ to Spatial Surge, wait and see.

Mind Stab, or whatever they change it to, is already slated for an update this patch.

Probably change its name but not the skill itself

How do you figure that?

Jon Peters told us last month that one of our Mind Stabs would be getting renamed in March. Since the MH Sword’s Mind Stab fits too well with the rest of the attack chain’s name theme it seems obvious that the GS version will get the rename.

However, nothing says for sure that any other aspect will change… Though I’d hope that when taking the time to review the name of an underperforming skill they’d look into tweaking it’s effectiveness.

My vote is to either revert it to single target or widen the AoE and make multiple swords stab up from the ground.

I don’t quite understand the hate on GS mindstab.
What do you people want? A skill that removes up to 5 boons, slightly increases the GS damage output (dont be fooled by the number that pops up, keep in mind that GS auto needs more time to complete its attack than mindstab) and have it hit up to 5 targets on a big AoE?
Are you kittening me?

Agony.3542:

I don’t quite understand the hate on GS mindstab.
What do you people want? A skill that removes up to 5 boons, slightly increases the GS damage output (dont be fooled by the number that pops up, keep in mind that GS auto needs more time to complete its attack than mindstab) and have it hit up to 5 targets on a big AoE?
Are you kittening me?

It’s not as horrible as some would make out, I use it in my rotation all the time. Everything you say is true, except the last bit.. It’s a ridiculously small AoE, which makes aiming it cumbersome – especially in the very mobile PvP where you are also rooting yourself.

Hello;
Firstly I would like to make one thing clear, I never said that shatter damage was over the top, I merely stated that I think that as it is right now shatter does too much, and in conjuction with the new saptial surge buffs it could very well push things over the edge.

I also want to clarify that I understand a lot about the mesmer 20 20 0 0 30 build; I have played the build since beta weekends.

The thing is if the saptial surge changes go in, as karl explained it to be, then it would be very “OP”, firstly the beam would be cleaving all 3 targets for the same amount of damage, in addition to the greatswords ability to spawn illusions ontop of the target, this could create immense cleaving potential. (Mind you I am only talking about Spvp here and nothing to do with wvw or pve)
These changes would force every Spvp team to focus the mesmer first, because rezzing with a gs mesmer standing around would not be an option anymore. Simply spamming GS 1, Mirror blade, berserker and Mindwrack means that people will be taking immense damage, having their boons ripped off and taking confusion damage, including the constant damage they would be taking from the mesmer who will be standing at 1000-900 range.

This is why I believe in order for those changes to go through then shatter should be looked at, at least moving the shatter removes boons into the grandmaster tree. Otherwise things will get stupid very very fast.

Also I am sorry if people are upset about how we articulate our questions, but we are also under heavy time constraints during the show, and don’t have the time to express ourselves aswell as we would like.

Thank you.

Xeph, I understand you felt rushed, I noticed you try to get a word in many times and get spoken over. You said how Mesmer shatter can remove boons, apply vuln, stack confusion, and deal ‘massive’ AoE “for little [cost?]”. Though you may not have meant it, that comes across as a typical nerf herder comment of over generalizing. Though I appreciate your willingness to readily admit when you think a change may be overpowered, especially when it’s to your own profession, there are costs/choices involved due to limited trait options and illusion resources.

In a typical 20/20/0/0/30 Build in order to make your Mind Wrack remove boons and apply Vuln you’d have to use both of your Major Dom traits, giving up 20% MW damage and GS cool down reduction. So there is already balancing measures in place that reduce our “massive damage” and GS effectiveness if we take that route. You can stack Vuln better with Diversion though, but if you decide to go that route you’ll get to pick up Mental Torment, but are reliant on spending clones on non-damaging Diversion to stack Vuln.

Furthermore, Shatter’s effects at range aren’t devastating – if anything they are underwhelming and unreliable. It’s when you combine it with IP that it gets nasty, since a single Illusion Mind Wrack with IP deals nearly as much as a 3 Illusion shatter without it – the Melee requirement of IP meaning that your Illusions are less likely to die before they shatter.

So, if you’re trying to get the most out of a Shatter then you aren’t getting the most out of GS due to it’s range requirements. If you think about it, giving Spatial Surge – which requires range – AoE was the best place for them to make this change since we can’t simultaneously benefit from that change and get the most out of our potent IP Shatter build.

Dastion.3106:

Agony.3542:

I don’t quite understand the hate on GS mindstab.
What do you people want? A skill that removes up to 5 boons, slightly increases the GS damage output (dont be fooled by the number that pops up, keep in mind that GS auto needs more time to complete its attack than mindstab) and have it hit up to 5 targets on a big AoE?
Are you kittening me?

It’s not as horrible as some would make out, I use it in my rotation all the time. Everything you say is true, except the last bit.. It’s a ridiculously small AoE, which makes aiming it cumbersome – especially in the very mobile PvP where you are also rooting yourself.

I completely agree on the rooting yourself part. The skill description says it takes 1/4 of a second to cast, but the actual time you spend immoblie feels far more. In general i would aprreciate removing this stand still while casting it all together.

Dastion.3106:

Xeph, I understand you felt rushed, I noticed you try to get a word in many times and get spoken over. You said how Mesmer shatter can remove boons, apply vuln, stack confusion, and deal ‘massive’ AoE “for little [cost?]”. Though you may not have meant it, that comes across as a typical nerf herder comment of over generalizing. Though I appreciate your willingness to readily admit when you think a change may be overpowered, especially when it’s to your own profession, there are costs/choices involved due to limited trait options and illusion resources.

In a typical 20/20/0/0/30 Build in order to make your Mind Wrack remove boons and apply Vuln you’d have to use both of your Major Dom traits, giving up 20% MW damage and GS cool down reduction. So there is already balancing measures in place that reduce our “massive damage” and GS effectiveness if we take that route. You can stack Vuln better with Diversion though, but if you decide to go that route you’ll get to pick up Mental Torment, but are reliant on spending clones on non-damaging Diversion to stack Vuln.

Furthermore, Shatter’s effects at range aren’t devastating – if anything they are underwhelming and unreliable. It’s when you combine it with IP that it gets nasty, since a single Illusion Mind Wrack with IP deals nearly as much as a 3 Illusion shatter without it – the Melee requirement of IP meaning that your Illusions are less likely to die before they shatter.

So, if you’re trying to get the most out of a Shatter then you aren’t getting the most out of GS due to it’s range requirements. If you think about it, giving Spatial Surge – which requires range – AoE was the best place for them to make this change since we can’t simultaneously benefit from that change and get the most out of our potent IP Shatter build.

I am sorry, then in this case we have to disagree, shatter damage in conjunction with your GS skills on range are very devastating, mesmers are only second to thieves at dealing damage from range, and even then they provide more utility then a thief does with their GS kit. 3 shatters on range each deal 1.8k , saying that it is best case scenario and each shatter crits then that would be 5.4k (Tested on a light dummy) at the safety of 1,200 range, that is not counting in other GS skills that can be used to achieve in higher numbers.
If the GS changes goes through then you can be sure that damage would reach ridiculous levels.

In Spvp, the amount of times cleave is required is actually quit often, and this change would simply break mesmer, it’s either no aoe spatial surge or a nerf to shatter.

they can reduce shatter damage if they give it a blast combo finisher. :p

i dont think buffing 2 weapons and then reducing the global mechanic’s damage is a good solution to whatever the pvp crybabies are crying about this week (said because mesmers seem to be disproportionately targeted for pvp QQing, maybe because we are more annoying to deal with but not necessarily more powerful than other professions)

Schroedingercat.7065:

they can reduce shatter damage if they give it a blast combo finisher. :p

i dont think buffing 2 weapons and then reducing the global mechanic’s damage is a good solution to whatever the pvp crybabies are crying about this week (said because mesmers seem to be disproportionately targeted for pvp QQing, maybe because we are more annoying to deal with but not necessarily more powerful than other professions)

I agree, but there is no reason to buff mesmers atm; especially the aoe because as it is we do have very devastating aoe in pvp without it being buffed; anymore and we will be tipped over the edge of being OP (in the regard of aoe).

Xeph.4513:

Dastion.3106:

Xeph, I understand you felt rushed, I noticed you try to get a word in many times and get spoken over. You said how Mesmer shatter can remove boons, apply vuln, stack confusion, and deal ‘massive’ AoE “for little [cost?]”. Though you may not have meant it, that comes across as a typical nerf herder comment of over generalizing. Though I appreciate your willingness to readily admit when you think a change may be overpowered, especially when it’s to your own profession, there are costs/choices involved due to limited trait options and illusion resources.

In a typical 20/20/0/0/30 Build in order to make your Mind Wrack remove boons and apply Vuln you’d have to use both of your Major Dom traits, giving up 20% MW damage and GS cool down reduction. So there is already balancing measures in place that reduce our “massive damage” and GS effectiveness if we take that route. You can stack Vuln better with Diversion though, but if you decide to go that route you’ll get to pick up Mental Torment, but are reliant on spending clones on non-damaging Diversion to stack Vuln.

Furthermore, Shatter’s effects at range aren’t devastating – if anything they are underwhelming and unreliable. It’s when you combine it with IP that it gets nasty, since a single Illusion Mind Wrack with IP deals nearly as much as a 3 Illusion shatter without it – the Melee requirement of IP meaning that your Illusions are less likely to die before they shatter.

So, if you’re trying to get the most out of a Shatter then you aren’t getting the most out of GS due to it’s range requirements. If you think about it, giving Spatial Surge – which requires range – AoE was the best place for them to make this change since we can’t simultaneously benefit from that change and get the most out of our potent IP Shatter build.

I am sorry, then in this case we have to disagree, shatter damage in conjunction with your GS skills on range are very devastating, mesmers are only second to thieves at dealing damage from range, and even then they provide more utility then a thief does with their GS kit. 3 shatters on range each deal 1.8k , saying that it is best case scenario and each shatter crits then that would be 5.4k (Tested on a light dummy) at the safety of 1,200 range, that is not counting in other GS skills that can be used to achieve in higher numbers.
If the GS changes goes through then you can be sure that damage would reach ridiculous levels.

In Spvp, the amount of times cleave is required is actually quit often, and this change would simply break mesmer, it’s either no aoe spatial surge or a nerf to shatter.

There is a difference between cleave, pierce, and especially bouncing attacks. Thief gets to hit multiple enemies regardless of their position, comparing Trick Shot to a piercing attack is ridiculous. By that logic Rifle Engineers and Bow Rangers should be up there too. But they’re not because it’s the most easily avoided AoE type in the game.

If someone moves 90 degrees from an ally (beside them instead of in front of them) it takes only a second to do so. To counter that movement you would have to move 1,350-1,800 units to realign them both and maintain your range and damage. In fact, by all accounts this change is actually worse than normal piercing akin to what rangers and engineers can do since it only affects enemies between you and your target rather than automatically piercing out behind them (that bit remains to be seen).

The Shatter build is far from weak, but adding a rather limited AoE option to a weapon that may or may not be used along with the build (Osi uses staff) does not necessitate a nerf, it may – but brashly declaring within a minute of hearing that ‘shatter needs to be nerfed’ is illogical – as the devs tried to tactfully point out to you.

I am in full agreement that the shatter build could do with some toning down, but I think the base mechanic could use a boost. The whole reason the build works is that it’s a giant band-aid on our mechanic issues. We give up traits, dodges, and utilities to make up for clone production and even then still need IP so we can further increase the effect by a massive 33% boost (at least, it benefits you more the less illusions you have).

If Shattering was more worthwhile at it’s base and got less from traits it would encourage more diverse builds.

Dastion.3106:

Xeph.4513:

Dastion.3106:

Xeph, I understand you felt rushed, I noticed you try to get a word in many times and get spoken over. You said how Mesmer shatter can remove boons, apply vuln, stack confusion, and deal ‘massive’ AoE “for little [cost?]”. Though you may not have meant it, that comes across as a typical nerf herder comment of over generalizing. Though I appreciate your willingness to readily admit when you think a change may be overpowered, especially when it’s to your own profession, there are costs/choices involved due to limited trait options and illusion resources.

In a typical 20/20/0/0/30 Build in order to make your Mind Wrack remove boons and apply Vuln you’d have to use both of your Major Dom traits, giving up 20% MW damage and GS cool down reduction. So there is already balancing measures in place that reduce our “massive damage” and GS effectiveness if we take that route. You can stack Vuln better with Diversion though, but if you decide to go that route you’ll get to pick up Mental Torment, but are reliant on spending clones on non-damaging Diversion to stack Vuln.

Furthermore, Shatter’s effects at range aren’t devastating – if anything they are underwhelming and unreliable. It’s when you combine it with IP that it gets nasty, since a single Illusion Mind Wrack with IP deals nearly as much as a 3 Illusion shatter without it – the Melee requirement of IP meaning that your Illusions are less likely to die before they shatter.

So, if you’re trying to get the most out of a Shatter then you aren’t getting the most out of GS due to it’s range requirements. If you think about it, giving Spatial Surge – which requires range – AoE was the best place for them to make this change since we can’t simultaneously benefit from that change and get the most out of our potent IP Shatter build.

I am sorry, then in this case we have to disagree, shatter damage in conjunction with your GS skills on range are very devastating, mesmers are only second to thieves at dealing damage from range, and even then they provide more utility then a thief does with their GS kit. 3 shatters on range each deal 1.8k , saying that it is best case scenario and each shatter crits then that would be 5.4k (Tested on a light dummy) at the safety of 1,200 range, that is not counting in other GS skills that can be used to achieve in higher numbers.
If the GS changes goes through then you can be sure that damage would reach ridiculous levels.

In Spvp, the amount of times cleave is required is actually quit often, and this change would simply break mesmer, it’s either no aoe spatial surge or a nerf to shatter.

There is a difference between cleave, pierce, and especially bouncing attacks. Thief gets to hit multiple enemies regardless of their position, comparing Trick Shot to a piercing attack is ridiculous. By that logic Rifle Engineers and Bow Rangers should be up there too. But they’re not because it’s the most easily avoided AoE type in the game.

If someone moves 90 degrees from an ally (beside them instead of in front of them) it takes only a second to do so. To counter that movement you would have to move 1,350-1,800 units to realign them both and maintain your range and damage. In fact, by all accounts this change is actually worse than normal piercing akin to what rangers and engineers can do since it only affects enemies between you and your target rather than automatically piercing out behind them (that bit remains to be seen).

The Shatter build is far from weak, but adding a rather limited AoE option to a weapon that may or may not be used along with the build (Osi uses staff) does not necessitate a nerf, it may – but brashly declaring within a minute of hearing that ‘shatter needs to be nerfed’ is illogical – as the devs tried to tactfully point out to you.

I am in full agreement that the shatter build could do with some toning down, but I think the base mechanic could use a boost. The whole reason the build works is that it’s a giant band-aid on our mechanic issues. We give up traits, dodges, and utilities to make up for clone production and even then still need IP so we can further increase the effect by a massive 33% boost (at least, it benefits you more the less illusions you have).

If Shattering was more worthwhile at it’s base and got less from traits it would encourage more diverse builds.

Yet again; Ranger and Engi use projectiles and that’s why their aoe cleaves can be countered easily, mesmers are using a beam attack which goes through any anti projectile abilities etc.