Guild Wars 2

This thing don’t make any sense whatsoever. If condition damage doesn’t increase from Vulnerability why is this thing on Winds of Chaos? This trash should be completely removed (let bleeding/burning alone and since staff is extremely slow it isn’t OP at all that way), changed for 3-5sec poison or 3-5sec confusion. Any1 else thinks this need a change? Or if they keep it, make it so condition damage increases on targets with vulnerability.

Staff always seemed like a support weapon to me. So Vulnerability is good to have for your allies, it also increases your Warlock’s damage.

Vulnerability increases damage the target takes. So while it doesn’t cause direct damage in and of itself, it is increasing the damage of your phantasms, your teammates, and even your auto-attack.

Why is this bad?

Hee Haw.7164:

Vulnerability increases damage the target takes. So while it doesn’t cause direct damage in and of itself, it is increasing the damage of your phantasms, your teammates, and even your auto-attack.

Why is this bad?

Because if i’m running a condition build, staff is my main. Condition builds rely on condition damage and that is what i want my illusions to give, DAMAGE (bleed/burning). Vulnerability does nothing to condition mez and since staff is so slow i feel like 1% of damage increase (not even condition damage) is a waste, complete waste when you could be stacking bleeding/burning with your clones.

I dislike it on the staff auto attack because the whole damage of the attack comes from the conditions, so 33% of the time you get 0 damage.

With regards to OP’s suggestions, confusion on auto attacks is OP, although the 33% factor may help to correct that, but then clones reverse it. Still, I want my auto attack to deal consistent damage. Confusion puts control of the damage in my opponents’ hands.

Poison is a very powerful condition – there’s a reason it’s on Chaos Storm. Off the top of my head only one auto attack in the entire game has it, Putrid Curse, which is 2 seconds and attack 3 of the chain. Again, the 33% balancing factor is reversed by clones.

Just remove the vulnerability and leave it. It technically buffs the skill outside of support builds anyway. The only question is where do you put it? I don’t really want to see it on Chaos Storm either, and it makes zero sense on Chaos Armor…. Make iWarlock apply it before its damage is calculated?

ChaosStar.3162:

I dislike it on the staff auto attack because the whole damage of the attack comes from the conditions, so 33% of the time you get 0 damage.

With regards to OP’s suggestions, confusion on auto attacks is OP, although the 33% factor may help to correct that, but then clones reverse it. Still, I want my auto attack to deal consistent damage. Confusion puts control of the damage in my opponents’ hands.

Poison is a very powerful condition – there’s a reason it’s on Chaos Storm. Off the top of my head only one auto attack in the entire game has it, Putrid Curse, which is 2 seconds and attack 3 of the chain. Again, the 33% balancing factor is reversed by clones.

Just remove the vulnerability and leave it. It technically buffs the skill outside of support builds anyway. The only question is where do you put it? I don’t really want to see it on Chaos Storm either, and it makes zero sense on Chaos Armor…. Make iWarlock apply it before its damage is calculated?

Completely remove it would be as nice as adding confusion. It doesn’t matter to me i just want useless vulnerability to go away from Staff.

Lol it’s not useless, and I’m almost 100% sure it’s there for party support and for the iWarlock.

How about the vulnerability is only applied when the attack bounces? Then the first hit will always give you a consistent source of damage and, unless you’re bouncing it off yourself, the vulnerability would only be applied if another ally were present to make use of it.

Staff is powerful as is. Raising its damage would make it more powerful. Other weapons would become less attractive in comparison, making builds less diverse. This isn’t the sort of change you can expect outside of a bigger scope profession rebalance.

I think the only buff the Staff needs is with regards to Staff Clones: increase the duration of their Bleeding to 7s (right now it’s 5s) like the player version, make it a real projectile instead of a ground-hugger, make conditions/boons inflicted by Illusions be affected by +condition/boon duration, etc.

Voodoo Tina.4180:

Staff is powerful as is. Raising its damage would make it more powerful. Other weapons would become less attractive in comparison, making builds less diverse. This isn’t the sort of change you can expect outside of a bigger scope profession rebalance.

It won’t change anything. GS will be as used because its good. Sword will be used until they nerf blurred frenzy. scepter was and always will be the most useless weapon mesmer can wield. Auto attack on the staff should ALWAYS deal condition damage because 1. Its slow. 2. its base damage is pathetic.

When talking about Winds of Chaos you should always take into account that Clones use Winds of Chaos too (although it’s ground-hugging and its Bleeding is weaker). Also remember that Illusionary Elasticity, an essential trait for Staff builds, allows you to hit the same target twice.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Because if i’m running a condition build, staff is my main. Condition builds rely on condition damage and that is what i want my illusions to give, DAMAGE (bleed/burning). Vulnerability does nothing to condition mez and since staff is so slow i feel like 1% of damage increase (not even condition damage) is a waste, complete waste when you could be stacking bleeding/burning with your clones.

So, have you considered that there might be non-condition builds running a staff? Specifically builds retaining high Domination (and hence the +X% on Vulnerability duration)?

How would they benefit if you cut out one more condition fully supported by their spec for one not supported by it?

Weapons should not be strictly tied to specific trait lines!
They already are to a degree, and it’s causing issues (it’d be far better to have a Ranger-like setup where we get mixed weapon bonuses). Do we really want this? Do we really want the trait-lines to be renamed “Weapon spec lines”?

Because you’re playing the only build in the game that uses a staff, right?
Because your teammates/guildies/WvW group don’t benefit from it, right?
Because you apply no direct damage at all, right? iWarlock, and so on.

Seriously OP, you’re complaining for the sake of complaining. There are many, many builds that use the staff, and many people use it for support too. With that in mind, it’s fine.

Staff != Condition Mesmer.

It’s a weapon, you fill in the use.

Embolism.8106:

I think the only buff the Staff needs is with regards to Staff Clones: increase the duration of their Bleeding to 7s (right now it’s 5s) like the player version, make it a real projectile instead of a ground-hugger, make conditions/boons inflicted by Illusions be affected by +condition/boon duration, etc.

The player version of bleed only has 7 sec. duration if you have increased bleed/condition duration from somewhere (usually that comes from spec points in the Domination line).

Nevertheless, I agree the conditions/boons inflicted by Illusions should be affected by +condition/boon duration. (which currently does not)

Nuka Cola.8520:

Hee Haw.7164:

Vulnerability increases damage the target takes. So while it doesn’t cause direct damage in and of itself, it is increasing the damage of your phantasms, your teammates, and even your auto-attack.

Why is this bad?

Because if i’m running a condition build, staff is my main. Condition builds rely on condition damage and that is what i want my illusions to give, DAMAGE (bleed/burning). Vulnerability does nothing to condition mez and since staff is so slow i feel like 1% of damage increase (not even condition damage) is a waste, complete waste when you could be stacking bleeding/burning with your clones.

I always just thought of the condition damage as supplemental.

MUST remove is a bit strong. But I do agree vulnerability is already applied in abundance and better used on the sword class weapons.

I would prefer it to apply another type of damage condition such as poison or confusion as well.

As a side note, with all the nerf beatings staff has took over the last few patches, I’d expect a change like this is low on their list of priorities.

Snoxx.7943:

Embolism.8106:

I think the only buff the Staff needs is with regards to Staff Clones: increase the duration of their Bleeding to 7s (right now it’s 5s) like the player version, make it a real projectile instead of a ground-hugger, make conditions/boons inflicted by Illusions be affected by +condition/boon duration, etc.

The player version of bleed only has 7 sec. duration if you have increased bleed/condition duration from somewhere (usually that comes from spec points in the Domination line).

Nevertheless, I agree the conditions/boons inflicted by Illusions should be affected by +condition/boon duration. (which currently does not)

My WoC Bleeding lasts for 7s despite having no +condition duration. Note that there is a bug with Chaotic Dampening that makes WoC’s tooltip show the wrong duration for Bleeding (it will say 5s but it really still lasts 7s).

Embolism.8106:

My WoC Bleeding lasts for 7s despite having no +condition duration. Note that there is a bug with Chaotic Dampening that makes WoC’s tooltip show the wrong duration for Bleeding (it will say 5s but it really still lasts 7s).

My mistake, I was unspecific.

To clarify this:
- the bleed from WoC lasts 7 seconds
- the bleed from a crit (with Sigil of Earth in weapon) lasts 5 seconds

I do a single hit with staff (hitting ESC key after) and if I’m lucky I get 2 bleeds on the target. One ticks for 5 seconds and the other ticks 7 seconds.

edit:
Further testing tells me that both the WoC bleed and the Sigil of Earth bleed are affected by increased condition duration.

You have problems dealing damage with your staff?

Try: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Elasticity

Also remember, that your clones hit with wind of chaos too.
So, lets say, you have 2 clones up + your own attack with Illussionary Elasticity:
so every 45ms you get:
4*0,33% Chance to proc bleeding
4*0,33% Chance to proc burning
4*0,33% Chance to proc vulnerability
So staff 1 is atm powerfull enough.

BTW: Please wait with until 15th for posting more “pls balance this”-posts, because we don’t know, what the 15th is changing.

Staff Clones attack much slower than you do, so it isn’t exactly 5x Winds of Chaos when you have three Clones and IE. Also take into account Sharper Images (5s Bleeding) and the fact that Staff Clone WoC Bleeding lasts 5s instead of 7s.

In practice I find that while the Staff can deal a respectable amount of condition damage, it is slightly sub-par to condition damage specs of other professions. On the other hand, it also supports the team with Might, Fury and Vulnerability; and Staff Clones can provide a nice bit of cover for you.

Staff is already an incredible powerful weapon. It already has access to plenty of great offensive conditions that stack menacingly and some of the most extreme boons. Maximizing the condition damage of the auto-attack would make it way too strong, especially in light of its considerable defensive buffs.

Vulnerability, a debuff that actually provides indirect offensive party support without being too powerful for an auto-attack, is a good, balanced selection.

all they need to do to compensate all the nerfs the staff has taken every time they touch the staff in their revisions is…. speed up the auto attack, it is too slow in comparison to most if not all the weapons in the game. Also for iWarlock since he was nerfed in the last patch then give his attack the “projectile” property so he can combo since mesner is the only class that lacks in combos finishers since the few are only applied by his illusions wich means you can always time then how you want in compare to other classes. Vulnerability is fine butif they are going to change then change it to cripple or chill since the staff attack is so slow that other ptofessions literally can out run you and your WoC.

Embolism.8106:

When talking about Winds of Chaos you should always take into account that Clones use Winds of Chaos too (although it’s ground-hugging and its Bleeding is weaker). Also remember that Illusionary Elasticity, an essential trait for Staff builds, allows you to hit the same target twice.

I know all that but then again, illusianry elasticity don’t work on illusions and clones deal no damage by themselves… if you aren’t running a condition mez your clones spamming bleeding and burning (if they remove vuln) won’t be doing much and only on a condition build it’ll make a difference because right now a crit build outdamage condtion builds by a lot.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Embolism.8106:

When talking about Winds of Chaos you should always take into account that Clones use Winds of Chaos too (although it’s ground-hugging and its Bleeding is weaker). Also remember that Illusionary Elasticity, an essential trait for Staff builds, allows you to hit the same target twice.

I know all that but then again, illusianry elasticity don’t work on illusions and clones deal no damage by themselves… if you aren’t running a condition mez your clones spamming bleeding and burning (if they remove vuln) won’t be doing much and only on a condition build it’ll make a difference because right now a crit build outdamage condtion builds by a lot.

IE is 2x DPS from yourself which is powerful enough already, it doesn’t need to affect Clones. Staff Clones still deal the most damage out of all Clones, condition build or not; and I see no problem with them only out DPSing Phantasms if you’re specced for condition damage (it is a primarily condition-based weapon after all). DPS isn’t everything, Staff condition builds are much stronger defensively (Staff Clones themselves provide excellent cover for you, especially if you make good use of stealth) than Power-Crit builds; plus Confusion can drop unsuspecting Guardians/Thieves/Eles very quickly.

For me it’s not about a balance issue, it’s about the simple fact your auto attack has its damage cut by ~80% on an RNG. That is bad design. It doesn’t matter whether the attack usually deals 15,000 damage. Your auto attack is supposed to be a consistent form of damage, not one which completely randomly decides it’s going to be a support tool today.

I have nothing wrong with the sword applying vulnerability because that is a secondary effect (the primary is damage). Similarly, the staff’s boons are a secondary effect (the primary should be damage). The problem, IMO, is that the vulnerability from Winds of Chaos is applied in place of the primary effect of the skill.

ChaosStar.3162:

For me it’s not about a balance issue, it’s about the simple fact your auto attack has its damage cut by ~80% on an RNG. That is bad design. It doesn’t matter whether the attack usually deals 15,000 damage. Your auto attack is supposed to be a consistent form of damage, not one which completely randomly decides it’s going to be a support tool today.

Your autoattack is supposed to be a consistent form of damage?
This is news to me.
Any weapon which has a #1 chain usually doesn’t feature this, especially once you factor in weapon switching.
Sword #1? Cleave, Cleave, Single, two with Vulnerability, one with Boon Shear?
Ranger Shortbow #1 hits with a Bleed if the enemy is positioned right, and you don’t know how fast they’re spinning while jumping in place, either. WLOG, this is a RNG-mechanism.
Or Guardian Greatsword #1. The third hit gives Might depending on # of closeby target, how is that reliable damage output? You can’t control the positioning of enemy targets the moment you want to do the third hit.

Sorry, but the idea of a “reliable” baseline attack isn’t one the #1 skills reflect in GW2. Some do, yes. But they have other quirks added to them, like Ranger Longbow / Mesmer Greatsword ranged scaling, Guardian Scepter projectile speed or well, Mesmer Staff random condition.
Plus the staff is the chaos weapon. It’d be thematically unfitting for it to be so stable.

Perhaps consistent is a poor choice of wording. What I’m trying to say is the staff’s damage is actually replaced by the vulnerability. None of your examples feature this.

The mesmer sword damage is the same for swing 1 and 2, and increases in swing 3. The primary effect is damage, damage, damage. This is merely supplemented with vulnerability and boon removal.

And the guardian’s greatsword is similar to the mesmer sword. Damage, damage, damage on each skill. The secondary effect from the final part of the chain is offensive support, but the final hit doesn’t deal any less damage for the privilege; it merely supplements the main effect.

The ranger shortbow 1 is the best of your examples because the figure I’m reading from a build tool shows marginally higher base damage than the mesmer staff. Here, the bleeding is arguably supposed to be the primary effect, but your branding of it as an RNG is very questionable. I don’t have much experience with this skill, so I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert and discuss it :p

Both ranger longbow and mesmer greatsword deal respectable damage at their lowest range., and both deal more than the mesmer staff’s base damage. The mesmer staff is supposed to be making up this deficit through its conditions.

Instead, when the mesmer staff applies vulnerability, the damage from the skill is actually reduced. The offensive support is not being applied as a supplementary secondary effect; it is actually replacing the damage. I used the word “consistent” because, I don’t know about you, but when I’m chasing a foe with 3% HP the last thing I want is a weapon which has its damage cut by 80% on a random factor that is completely out of my hands. In all of the examples you gave (except possibly shortbow), I can press 1 in confidence that I will be dealing a good punch regardless of the “quirks” of the skill. That is good implementation of the support effects.

It’s damage isn’t cut by 80%. It’s damage is 100% of what it is designed to be. You don’t like that design, but changing it would raise the damage past what is intended, and that would lead to unforeseen consequences.

Also, why on earth are you chasing down an opponent with 3% health with a staff? To quote my Mesmer, “You’re already dead, you just don’t know it.” If you burned them down with a staff they are so covered with conditions let them run. It won’t help.

Voodoo Tina.4180:

It’s damage isn’t cut by 80%. It’s damage is 100% of what it is designed to be. You don’t like that design, but changing it would raise the damage past what is intended, and that would lead to unforeseen consequences.

Also, why on earth are you chasing down an opponent with 3% health with a staff? To quote my Mesmer, “You’re already dead, you just don’t know it.” If you burned them down with a staff they are so covered with conditions let them run. It won’t help.

You cannot compare shortbows Skill 1 to Staff skill 1. Shortbow auto’s are like 200% faster spam AND travel time… Winds of Chaos need a change, fact. Its far from being the only skill that needs to be rebalanced tho, but, Vulnerability has no place on this weapon auto’s, none. I would take 2sec or even 1sec of poison over support crap vulnerability is. I have chaos armor/chaos storm/phase retreat combo field for chaos armor as support, no need useless vulnerability when its on GS and sword anyways. If vulnerability was increasing condition damage i would’ve never made this thread but it doesn’t (poor choice to make condition builds weaker than they should)

Nuka Cola.8520:

Voodoo Tina.4180:

It’s damage isn’t cut by 80%. It’s damage is 100% of what it is designed to be. You don’t like that design, but changing it would raise the damage past what is intended, and that would lead to unforeseen consequences.

Also, why on earth are you chasing down an opponent with 3% health with a staff? To quote my Mesmer, “You’re already dead, you just don’t know it.” If you burned them down with a staff they are so covered with conditions let them run. It won’t help.

You cannot compare shortbows Skill 1 to Staff skill 1. Shortbow auto’s are like 200% faster spam AND travel time… Winds of Chaos need a change, fact. Its far from being the only skill that needs to be rebalanced tho, but, Vulnerability has no place on this weapon auto’s, none. I would take 2sec or even 1sec of poison over support crap vulnerability is. I have chaos armor/chaos storm/phase retreat combo field for chaos armor as support, no need useless vulnerability when its on GS and sword anyways. If vulnerability was increasing condition damage i would’ve never made this thread but it doesn’t (poor choice to make condition builds weaker than they should)

I’m sorry, I’m pretty sure mesmer’s can’t use shortbows….
Oh wait. you’re comparing a RANGER weapon set to a MESMER weapon set. Not thinking at all that class traits, functioning and other skills could at ALL be other balancing factors in the game. Like the fact that Ranger’s shortbow has an even weaker base damage, absolutely no buffing ability on it and Rangers completely lack the utility mesmers have when it comes to slot skills.
If you’re so concerned about condition damage, go precision with a GS mainhand and get a sigil of earth. You’ll stack bleeds far beyond that of a staff, which actually /stack/ unlike burning and do more damage that way.
Please leave Vulnerability on my support-staff build. I don’t stack any of the damage stats, just there to buff, daze, and survive fights, and it’s done wonders for my dungeon groups, but the vulnerability debuff is the only really useful one I have on that auto attack without any condition damage in my build. And don’t BS me with “GS and Sword” use it. Go make a sword “support” build. Tell me how much help that is too your group.

Personally I could agree with the “damage only” idea in a way, but only if I had more free reign.

1. Remove the secondary effect of Clones (this step + it’s rebalancing would help Scepter and Spear quite a bit, since they currently falter due to lacking Clone utility).
2. Ramp up Staff #1 damage by 75%-100%.
3. Change conditions to:

• Burning
• 3 stacks of Bleeding
• 3 stacks of Confusion

Voodoo Tina.4180:

It’s damage isn’t cut by 80%. It’s damage is 100% of what it is designed to be. You don’t like that design, but changing it would raise the damage past what is intended, and that would lead to unforeseen consequences.

As I said above, this isn’t a balance issue IMO. It is a fundamental flaw in the very concept behind the skill’s design. If Anet deem the removal of vulnerability overpowered, they can adjust the other numbers accordingly.

Voodoo Tina.4180:

Also, why on earth are you chasing down an opponent with 3% health with a staff? To quote my Mesmer, “You’re already dead, you just don’t know it.” If you burned them down with a staff they are so covered with conditions let them run. It won’t help.

You completely missed the point of the analogy

Sarelm.8317:

I’m sorry, I’m pretty sure mesmer’s can’t use shortbows….

Nuka wasn’t the person who brought up rangers, (s)he merely misquoted.

Sarelm.8317:

And don’t BS me with “GS and Sword” use it. Go make a sword “support” build. Tell me how much help that is too your group.

Slightly off topic here, but GS support is actually quite good. Staff 1 and 5 are your only real support skills, 4 at a stretch, whilst the GS supports with 2, 3, 4 and 5 and an appropriate sigil choice will give you a clean sweep of support skills. Anyway, this isn’t the thread for that discussion

Here’s how anet balanced things in gw – they watch the meta. Players are very smart in large numbers. Some might use something that sucks. By the thousands, they won’t. Look at the staff as it is. It is a very, VERY popular choice. Anet will conclude nothing is wrong with it, and its very unlikely they will buff it.

I do expect clones will be looked at just because of the differences in what they do. If that happens the weapons would need to be looked at as well, since clones are linked to them so closely.

completely 100% totally absolutely agree. aNet please do it.

This has to be a troll thread. Remove the condition… why, exactly? Because it doesn’t benefit a certain build? Maybe if you were asking to have it replaced with something else, sure, but to remove it completely? No thanks. You can be kitten well certain that whoever is in your group appreciates that vulnerability you just applied.

ChaosStar.3162:

Sarelm.8317:

And don’t BS me with “GS and Sword” use it. Go make a sword “support” build. Tell me how much help that is too your group.

Slightly off topic here, but GS support is actually quite good. Staff 1 and 5 are your only real support skills, 4 at a stretch, whilst the GS supports with 2, 3, 4 and 5 and an appropriate sigil choice will give you a clean sweep of support skills. Anyway, this isn’t the thread for that discussion

I think you’re mistaking “Support” with “Control”. 5 isn’t a support skill in any way, but it is excellent control. 2 indeed gives a buff, and 3 gives vulnerability, yes. But I can’t see how it compares with Staff 1 & 5’s buffing/debuffing capabilities. GS applies absolutely no fields either, and while Staff 5 is a short field, it’s a great way to apply chaos armor to allies, which is one of the better auras in the game… And I don’t see 4. It isn’t even a whirl finisher anymore so.. It’s just aoe damage from what I can tell. If I didn’t love the blast finisher on torch so much I might take GS as a second set but when it comes to surviving, buffing and debuffing, I can’t find anything that compares to mesmer staff. Not even my elementalist or guardian seems to apply buffs and debuffs at constant rate my mesmer can, at least yet. I’ve only played either to about lvl 50 now, given.