What are the acceptable reaction times?

What are the acceptable reaction times?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Q:

I’ve notice that people are saying they are being one shotted by mesmers, and this is indicative of OPness, but the full mesmer burst happens between 1-2 seconds, can people not react to this?

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
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Posted by: echo.2053

echo.2053

Because since game launch players got accustomed to making several mistakes back to back with little fear of dying. Now that interrupt is actually a rather big threat, they can’t just blindly spam skills, thus their reaction time increases.

Bender the offender – Proud violator of 17 safe spaces –

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

i think average reaction time is like around .3s, so someone bursting you in 2 seconds is plenty of time to react. people just don’t like when their egos get hurt and would rather blame other players or classes or builds or w/e, and this happens in basically every pvp game ever.

it’s quite literally just “l2p”.

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: dank.3680

dank.3680

Whelp it’s not hard to see mirror blade bouncing around and know its time to blink dodge or invuln b4 the shatter lands.. But people just cannot manage I guess, personally I avoid that burst constantly playing mesmer with unusual builds vs these cookie cutters all day.

#MAGSWAG: All class player. XOXO

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Posted by: DaShi.1368

DaShi.1368

A lot of people are exaggerating. I’m sure Anet is looking into mesmer damage, but not seeing much near what people are complaining about. There was one thread that complained about a 9k attack from iWarlock. There’s no honesty in the complaints.

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Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

It’s not a question of a single shot. It’s a question of multiple bursts within a short period of time. All you need is to be out of escapes for a single immobilize and it’s over. Now that the CDs for MW and CF have been dramatically lowered, this is making itself felt.

Oh, and of course this happening from stealth only makes it worse. I’ve been mesmering for 3 years, and I know how bad it feels to be preyed on by a thief from stealth with repeated bursts not being allowed to make a single mistake while the other guy stealths again and again.

I don’t want my favorite class to play that way and be cheap.

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Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

Truly point blank mirror blade from stealth has no travel time, and is effectively instant. Combining that with a dodge and shatter and MoD to proc CS at the same time will often 1shot a zerker build.

That combo can absolutely be executed in under half a second.

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Posted by: Photoloss.4817

Photoloss.4817

Truly point blank mirror blade from stealth has no travel time, and is effectively instant. Combining that with a dodge and shatter and MoD to proc CS at the same time will often 1shot a zerker build.

That combo can absolutely be executed in under half a second.

But how would you prevent that? It doesn’t rely on PU and the individual skills are pretty balanced (except maybe CS, but a high ICD would do nothing here)

In sPvP you can obviously fiddle with the amulet stats until it’s unable to oneshot anything, but that affects all other builds and playstyles as well.

Actually, what if stealth worked like in Starcraft, so you can still see the silhouette of the enemy? Ofc you still can’t target them directly, but at least you see their rough position. Could obviously be tweaked to show only a blurred cloud (where you can’t even make out the number of stealthed players standing next to each other), a blurred silhouette (where you can’t make out specific skill animations, but see they’re doing something), or the full model like we already get for allies.

If the mesmer isn’t stealthed you can at least see the mirror blade animation before they blink to you.

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Posted by: Pepsi.8907

Pepsi.8907

Truly point blank mirror blade from stealth has no travel time, and is effectively instant. Combining that with a dodge and shatter and MoD to proc CS at the same time will often 1shot a zerker build.

That combo can absolutely be executed in under half a second.

But how would you prevent that? It doesn’t rely on PU and the individual skills are pretty balanced (except maybe CS, but a high ICD would do nothing here)

In sPvP you can obviously fiddle with the amulet stats until it’s unable to oneshot anything, but that affects all other builds and playstyles as well.

Actually, what if stealth worked like in Starcraft, so you can still see the silhouette of the enemy? Ofc you still can’t target them directly, but at least you see their rough position. Could obviously be tweaked to show only a blurred cloud (where you can’t even make out the number of stealthed players standing next to each other), a blurred silhouette (where you can’t make out specific skill animations, but see they’re doing something), or the full model like we already get for allies.

If the mesmer isn’t stealthed you can at least see the mirror blade animation before they blink to you.

Yes I wondered about that too… Why not completely invisible when immobile and only seeing a faint untargetable blur when moving.
It’s not overly apparent, doesn’t break the mechanic tand at least it gives a chance for the target to react if they pat attention to their surrounding… As it is there is no sound, no visual, no indication that something is approaching.

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

I’m a hardcore newb, scrub, terribad Mesmer as dubbed by the truly hardcore metabattle fanatics as seen in any thread/discussion I posted a gameplay vid in pre-patch. So if I can catch and dodge an incoming burst from a Mesmer, anyone can.

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Posted by: Mak.2657

Mak.2657

Actually, what if stealth worked like in Starcraft, so you can still see the silhouette of the enemy? Ofc you still can’t target them directly, but at least you see their rough position. Could obviously be tweaked to show only a blurred cloud (where you can’t even make out the number of stealthed players standing next to each other), a blurred silhouette (where you can’t make out specific skill animations, but see they’re doing something), or the full model like we already get for allies.

This destroys stealth pretty much. There are no need to target enemy to inflict damage. Even ranged auto attack still culd be used to hits non-target enemies, with some exceptions like mesmer spartial surge.

Yes, mesmer can do big burst from stealth, but they blows multiple CD’s for it. Stealth, blink, dodge, gs2, shatters, MoD. More damage then thief, but less rate of applcations.
If you have problems with such burst – treat it like thief burst, be predictive.
If you don’t play with ‘cheap’ class – just don’t play such way.

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Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

I’ve notice that people are saying they are being one shotted by mesmers, and this is indicative of OPness, but the full mesmer burst happens between 1-2 seconds, can people not react to this?

What do people react with when being stunned and burst, when they can be stunned for 1.25 seconds, instantly, from 1200 range, even from stealth, any time they use skill with a cast time, multiple times per minute that far exceeds stunbreakers/invurns (and that is in a 1v1, let alone that in a teamfight these stunbreakers will get used up by against other opponents), bad, broken game design is… bad and broken.

I used to have to bait dodges on my mesmer, now I just roll my face across the keyboard.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

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Posted by: Photoloss.4817

Photoloss.4817

This destroys stealth pretty much. There are no need to target enemy to inflict damage. Even ranged auto attack still culd be used to hits non-target enemies, with some exceptions like mesmer spartial surge.

Yes, mesmer can do big burst from stealth, but they blows multiple CD’s for it. Stealth, blink, dodge, gs2, shatters, MoD. More damage then thief, but less rate of applcations.
If you have problems with such burst – treat it like thief burst, be predictive.
If you don’t play with ‘cheap’ class – just don’t play such way.

The problem with “predicting” it is that even without traits you can initiate this from 1200 range with no advance warning. And you can still have BF+block/curtain, meaning you’re not “guaranteed” to die yourself.

I’m not claiming it’s unbeatable, but it’s a very gimmicky, very safe “1+ for 1” tactic that only takes raw mechanics practice to execute.

Also care to elaborate how stealth would be “destroyed”? Good luck manually aiming autoattacks, as you can’t do it in top-down view. AoE isn’t always available, and many gapclosers require a target to cast, so melee cleave will also be severely limited. And as I said the exact animation could be adjusted, for example random “distortion” pulses within 180+ radius, enjoy figuring out the center-of-mass on that before the stealth ends anway.

(edited by Photoloss.4817)

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Posted by: Esplen.3940

Esplen.3940

I’ve notice that people are saying they are being one shotted by mesmers, and this is indicative of OPness, but the full mesmer burst happens between 1-2 seconds, can people not react to this?

What do people react with when being stunned and burst, when they can be stunned for 1.25 seconds, instantly, from 1200 range, even from stealth, any time they use skill with a cast time, multiple times per minute that far exceeds stunbreakers/invurns (and that is in a 1v1, let alone that in a teamfight these stunbreakers will get used up by against other opponents), bad, broken game design is… bad and broken.

I used to have to bait dodges on my mesmer, now I just roll my face across the keyboard.

They get stunned from 1200 range, that means something is about to happen to them, so they should use their stunbreak and probably roll or use a blocking-like ability.

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Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

I’ve notice that people are saying they are being one shotted by mesmers, and this is indicative of OPness, but the full mesmer burst happens between 1-2 seconds, can people not react to this?

What do people react with when being stunned and burst, when they can be stunned for 1.25 seconds, instantly, from 1200 range, even from stealth, any time they use skill with a cast time, multiple times per minute that far exceeds stunbreakers/invurns (and that is in a 1v1, let alone that in a teamfight these stunbreakers will get used up by against other opponents), bad, broken game design is… bad and broken.

I used to have to bait dodges on my mesmer, now I just roll my face across the keyboard.

They get stunned from 1200 range, that means something is about to happen to them, so they should use their stunbreak and probably roll or use a blocking-like ability.

Do you even read what you reply to? You can trigger CS multiple times per minute between MoD & Diversion, far more times than the number of stunbreaks / instant blocks & invurns than most builds have, there is no counterplay, and that is 1v1, add in most fights are not that, and stun breaks and the few instant invurns/blocks get used up far mroe quickly in teamfights, it is even more of a joke, it is skilless and terrible game design.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

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Posted by: Mak.2657

Mak.2657

The problem with “predicting” it is that even without traits you can initiate this from 1200 range with no advance warning.

Thef can do the same thing. With less damage though.

I’m not claiming it’s unbeatable, but it’s a very gimmicky, very safe “1+ for 1” tactic that only takes raw mechanics practice to execute.

Idk. I have problems with thieves and shatter mesmers, but can handle them most of the time. I usually still can react to such burst even from invis. + it is still very predictive. MB not ‘raw mechanics practice to execute’.

Also care to elaborate how stealth would be “destroyed”? Good luck manually aiming autoattacks, as you can’t do it in top-down view. AoE isn’t always available, and many gapclosers require a target to cast, so melee cleave will also be severely limited. And as I said the exact animation could be adjusted, for example random “distortion” pulses within 180+ radius, enjoy figuring out the center-of-mass on that before the stealth ends anway.

Emm?..
Ranged skills just as an example of worst case, but… Do you remember that Helseth gs2 thief oneshot without any ‘blurred stealth’. Right use of positioning and camera makes it much easier. Melee attacks (e.g. axe warr, etc), aoe spammers (e.g staff ele, grenade eng,) just would wreck such type of stealth. I had many easy kills when there was a time with only visible damage numbers from invisible opponents.
Such type of stealth loose most of offensive and devensive capabilities.
Good luck with escapes from zergs.

I l

(edited by Mak.2657)

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Posted by: Esplen.3940

Esplen.3940

I’ve notice that people are saying they are being one shotted by mesmers, and this is indicative of OPness, but the full mesmer burst happens between 1-2 seconds, can people not react to this?

What do people react with when being stunned and burst, when they can be stunned for 1.25 seconds, instantly, from 1200 range, even from stealth, any time they use skill with a cast time, multiple times per minute that far exceeds stunbreakers/invurns (and that is in a 1v1, let alone that in a teamfight these stunbreakers will get used up by against other opponents), bad, broken game design is… bad and broken.

I used to have to bait dodges on my mesmer, now I just roll my face across the keyboard.

They get stunned from 1200 range, that means something is about to happen to them, so they should use their stunbreak and probably roll or use a blocking-like ability.

Do you even read what you reply to? You can trigger CS multiple times per minute between MoD & Diversion, far more times than the number of stunbreaks / instant blocks & invurns than most builds have, there is no counterplay, and that is 1v1, add in most fights are not that, and stun breaks and the few instant invurns/blocks get used up far mroe quickly in teamfights, it is even more of a joke, it is skilless and terrible game design.

CS has a 5 second cooldown, yes you can activate it multiple times per minute, but with a 5 second delay between the stuns, you’ve already given up your intent and position allowing your opponent to know what is going to come. Sure you can mindlessly spam stuns, but if they don’t interrupt, you don’t get the bonuses (and they can be dodged, although MoD might need a cast time now).

There is counterplay and simply spamming interrupts isn’t going to do the job, even if they do stun (remember fighting Hambow Warriors? They had a lot of CC, too and the CC was somewhat manageable as long as you had at least one escape ready because you knew what was coming next).

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Posted by: Photoloss.4817

Photoloss.4817

Idk. I have problems with thieves and shatter mesmers, but can handle them most of the time. I usually still can react to such burst even from invis. + it is still very predictive. MB not ‘raw mechanics practice to execute’.

How do you “react”? You can stealth before entering the line of sight of your opponent!

Emm?..
Ranged skills just as an example of worst case, but… Do you remember that Helseth gs2 thief oneshot without any ‘blurred stealth’. Right use of positioning and camera makes it much easier. Melee attacks (e.g. axe warr, etc), aoe spammers (e.g staff ele, grenade eng,) just would wreck such type of stealth. I had many easy kills when there was a time with only visible damage numbers from invisible opponents.
Such type of stealth loose most of offensive and devensive capabilities.
Good luck with escapes from zergs.

I l

Melee you can walk away from, assuming everything was balanced before the stealth change disengage abilities on thief/mesmer would need to get buffed obviously. AoE spam still has a chance to miss (depending on the chosen silhouette effect ofc) and only engi autos don’t suffer cooldown from failed attempts.
Escaping an entire zerg when you’re already in combat (if not just wp out) doesn’t have to be a thing.
If you’re concerned with stealth viability in the thick of an ongoing battle, the distortion effect should be subtle enough to get drowned out, or uninformative enough that you can’t pinpoint the stealthed character while following the rest of the fight.
It’s meant to be a warning that something is up. That somewhere around you, an enemy is using stealth. Not a free “point your staff here” marker.

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Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

I’ve notice that people are saying they are being one shotted by mesmers, and this is indicative of OPness, but the full mesmer burst happens between 1-2 seconds, can people not react to this?

What do people react with when being stunned and burst, when they can be stunned for 1.25 seconds, instantly, from 1200 range, even from stealth, any time they use skill with a cast time, multiple times per minute that far exceeds stunbreakers/invurns (and that is in a 1v1, let alone that in a teamfight these stunbreakers will get used up by against other opponents), bad, broken game design is… bad and broken.

I used to have to bait dodges on my mesmer, now I just roll my face across the keyboard.

They get stunned from 1200 range, that means something is about to happen to them, so they should use their stunbreak and probably roll or use a blocking-like ability.

Do you even read what you reply to? You can trigger CS multiple times per minute between MoD & Diversion, far more times than the number of stunbreaks / instant blocks & invurns than most builds have, there is no counterplay, and that is 1v1, add in most fights are not that, and stun breaks and the few instant invurns/blocks get used up far mroe quickly in teamfights, it is even more of a joke, it is skilless and terrible game design.

CS has a 5 second cooldown, yes you can activate it multiple times per minute, but with a 5 second delay between the stuns, you’ve already given up your intent and position allowing your opponent to know what is going to come. Sure you can mindlessly spam stuns, but if they don’t interrupt, you don’t get the bonuses (and they can be dodged, although MoD might need a cast time now).

There is counterplay and simply spamming interrupts isn’t going to do the job, even if they do stun (remember fighting Hambow Warriors? They had a lot of CC, too and the CC was somewhat manageable as long as you had at least one escape ready because you knew what was coming next).

“but if they don’t interrupt, you don’t get the bonuses”

But you get the stun – which is all the window necessary for landing the combo.

The power of CS is only partly for interrupts. 5 second intervals for 6 stuns (with harmonious mantras + recharge) is more than enough to burn through any evades, invulns, or blocks you can throw up.

One other thing – I don’t think merely landing the stun by itself breaks stealth. According to the wiki “Abilities that do not deal direct damage (like Caltrops, or the Traps which do not deal direct damage) will not break stealth”

Mantra of distraction by itself with confounding suggestions deals no damage, so the statement “you’ve already given up your intent and position” is false. You can’t know the mesmer’s position even if they stun you.

Unless I’m wrong about MoD not breaking stealth – can anyone confirm/deny?

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Posted by: Mak.2657

Mak.2657

How do you “react”? You can stealth before entering the line of sight of your opponent!

From my experience I usually have ~0.5s till whole burst lands on me. It’ enough most of the time. If I haven’t this time – usully not oneshoted (mesm with maradeur amu). Defensive traits helps. Now when I am aware of mesmer it is another game.

It’s meant to be a warning that something is up. That somewhere around you, an enemy is using stealth. Not a free “point your staff here” marker.

Even this can be abused.
“Warning that something is up”. This thing for me is map awarness. In pvp minimap helps much.

Unless I’m wrong about MoD not breaking stealth – can anyone confirm/deny?

If you are not using Power Block trait and do not interrupt enemy it does not break stealth.
MoD whithout intterupt is a bad play in most cases imho.

(edited by Mak.2657)

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Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

There is counterplay and simply spamming interrupts isn’t going to do the job, even if they do stun (remember fighting Hambow Warriors? They had a lot of CC, too and the CC was somewhat manageable as long as you had at least one escape ready because you knew what was coming next).

No the CC of hambow warriors was manageable, because it had counterplay, because it had animations and cast times, so you could react and for example dodge a pin down, where as a 1200 range instant stun (let’s not even go into the stealth thing) is unavoidable unless your idea of “counterplay” is to not to use skills, it is pitifully bad design.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

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Posted by: Scapper.4236

Scapper.4236

I find seeing a mesmer coming, it’s easy to predict and if you see a mesmer in spvp at the beginning just keep in mind that their is potential to be instagibed. They are generally easy to predict as many new mesmers are joining the profession and repeat the same combination on players who haven’t ever played the class and don’t know the skill rotations.

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Posted by: Exciton.8942

Exciton.8942

The upgrade of daze to stun for MoD is simply too powerful.

When a good player gets dazed, he immediately dodges. But if you get stunned, you need to first use a stunbreaker and then try to mitigate damage. Against a well-executed burst, this is asking a bit too much to do. In addition, the same chain can be executed in 5 seconds again.

It doesn’t require interruption to lock down your opponent with this. Power block and chaotic interruption are also strong, but both of them requires the ability to read opponent’s animation and execute your skill at the right moment. This one does not, you just need to rapidly press down a series of buttons.

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Posted by: Pepsi.8907

Pepsi.8907

I’m a hardcore newb, scrub, terribad Mesmer as dubbed by the truly hardcore metabattle fanatics as seen in any thread/discussion I posted a gameplay vid in pre-patch. So if I can catch and dodge an incoming burst from a Mesmer, anyone can.

LOL Ross. We know your worth, don’t worry.

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Posted by: Aomine.5012

Aomine.5012

i think average reaction time is like around .3s, so someone bursting you in 2 seconds is plenty of time to react. people just don’t like when their egos get hurt and would rather blame other players or classes or builds or w/e, and this happens in basically every pvp game ever.

it’s quite literally just “l2p”.

People have .3 reaction time when THEY’RE PREPARED and THEY KNOW IT’S COMING.

If it’s out of surprise, like from stealth, usually people will have a SLOWER reaction time due to emotionally shocked. This is proven by real life example, when people in shock or panic, they’d actually stop their action in the process and makes them vulnerable. The best example is during a car accident, which under normal circumstances, human should have the reaction speed to avoid the car. But when in panic, you actually stop your action when you see a car’s coming instead of dodging it.

I’d say against a stealth Mesmer that you do not forsee, it takes at least 1 second before you can react when you’re half prepared, and about 2 seconds if you truly do not see it coming.

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

if you’re playing pvp game modes and not expecting there to be players around that can instantly spike you im pretty sure that’s your fault

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: Necrotize.2974

Necrotize.2974

i think average reaction time is like around .3s, so someone bursting you in 2 seconds is plenty of time to react. people just don’t like when their egos get hurt and would rather blame other players or classes or builds or w/e, and this happens in basically every pvp game ever.

it’s quite literally just “l2p”.

People have .3 reaction time when THEY’RE PREPARED and THEY KNOW IT’S COMING.

If it’s out of surprise, like from stealth, usually people will have a SLOWER reaction time due to emotionally shocked. This is proven by real life example, when people in shock or panic, they’d actually stop their action in the process and makes them vulnerable. The best example is during a car accident, which under normal circumstances, human should have the reaction speed to avoid the car. But when in panic, you actually stop your action when you see a car’s coming instead of dodging it.

I’d say against a stealth Mesmer that you do not forsee, it takes at least 1 second before you can react when you’re half prepared, and about 2 seconds if you truly do not see it coming.

This is actually not true. At least not entirely from the articles I’ve found. I’ve got a traffic safety and driving manual from a while ago(and I found it online as well) that set people up in a moving based driving simulator that would be subject to sudden onset of powerful winds, thus requiring them to turn the wheel quickly. I felt this was the most applicable comparison as it involves reflexes and muscle control in your hands as opposed to your feet(as the reaction time for breaking when surprised was almost twice that of the one for steering, probably due to not having your foot already on the pedal). Anyway, in this wind simulator, the average reaction time for steering to counter sudden heavy winds was about .39 to .5 seconds. The wind was sudden and occurred in random directions and intervals, which I feel makes it very applicable to this situation.

Just a quick google search for articles on this also shows other sites that claim anywhere from .4 to .7 seconds as well for drivers, although they don’t go so far into their method.

I mean, thieves have always been able to stealth long enough to approach and surprise you, does that mean whenever a thief stealths you just give them a free hit? I’ve seen plenty of people react to my burst, even from stealth. Newer players? Probably not so much unless they just get lucky, but especially in big maps with long walks to the point(like Foefire ), it not that hard to see someone coming and then disappear into stealth. If the mesmer stealthed before coming into view, that usually means they either blew mass invis(which also has a big tell and an after effect) or they’re chaining stealths and blink to get to you in time. Plus Immobilize is a huge obvious tell when playing against mesmer, not even one you can do reliable now as the Sword 3 move is so slow and messed up now. So the only time you’re gonna get that Immob is off CI, whih means your enemy is already aware of you or someone else’s presence, or they’re just flailing around on point for some reason.

(edited by Necrotize.2974)

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Posted by: Chorazin.4107

Chorazin.4107

Mesmer burst is wayyy over the top atm, dmg in game in general needs to be scaled back, it’s all well and good to talk about reaction times in FPS’s, but this is an MMO. With people playing from all over the world. It’s great that you have snappy reaction time with a ping of 20 to the server. Doesnt matter your reaction time if your ping is 400, you’d need to travel back in time to have a chance. You want people new to the game to not get burst down in about 1.5 seconds, go lololololol(because this sort of play is kittened for any game) and leave.

Not only that but it pretty much voids any sort of support trait lines/gear and turns the game into a burst fest. There is no point in throwing all these points into healing and picking up support traits when ur 2.5k group support heal goes off every 20 seconds to get bursted again for 11k on a faster rotation. You are much better off just ditching any and all healing/support traits and going down the burst route yourself.

When a 3k+ armour guard with 22k health can get bursted to under 4k in a second you have issues. The fights need to be play and counterplay not just ‘o, i landed my burst first i win’. Especially from stealth, other big bursts like churning earth and killshot have a visible wind up, which is absolutely fine. It’s why i always thought backstab was way too much reward vs risk/setup.

Having massive burst in a game is doable with targeted healing, youve got that Cleric watching your back ready to top ur health up. This game has nothing of the sort, the healing requires generally setting up and then executing in the case of blasts or wind up animations in the case of personal healing.

Chorazin
[lion]~ riperonis
[tRex]

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Posted by: Necrotize.2974

Necrotize.2974

I suppose 11 stacks of burning in 1-2 seconds is fine though right? Saying we should nerf bursts because some people have low ping and some people how slow reaction times is just catering to the lowest denominator, and since Anet appears to want Gw2 to go in the Esport direction, I doubt they’ll nerf it nearly as much as everyone is hoping, because on the competitive scene most of these things are non-issues. There you have Guards specced specifically to keep everyone alive and they do a hell of a job at it too, whereas in solo-que or hotjoin, you’ll probably join a match full of zerkers so it isn’t surprising when everyone goes down in under 30 seconds.

Guess you forgot to mention that with Churning Earth and Killshot’s big wind up, they’re almost never worth using unless you’re outnumbering a fight or somehow catch someone off guard. As soon as I see an ele 1v1ing me on point start to channel Churning Earth, I know they probably have no idea what they’re doing and are just using things off cd, back up just out of range to force them to blow lightning flash, and then I burst them. Killshot is pretty much the same way, maybe worse because adrenaline dissipates when not in combat. If I see a warrior trying to killshot me, blink towards them, get mirror, throw out mirror blade. Majority of the time they just downed themselves because they weren’t smart enough to cancel killshot. Good warriors will use Killshot to bait dodges and once they know you’re out, only then do they actually land it. Sadly, a majority of them just use it to fill in time between cds and get punished for it.

This game doesn’t have a devoted “Cleric” class because they want to avoid exactly what you stated. People make stupid decisions and play with much less risk when there’s someone sitting right behind them topping them off after every single mistake. You’re not supposed to face tank things in this game, even if you’re the tankiest warrior or a 3k armor guardian. Dodging/evading is and always should be superior to tanking hits.

(edited by Necrotize.2974)

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Posted by: Mak.2657

Mak.2657

Yup, I appreciate this direction (dmg) much more then previous boring bruiser meta. Even now full zerk should spend much time against good(not just sitting on cleric and eating damage) at dodging\blocking\invuln tanky guard.

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Posted by: ASP.8093

ASP.8093

Having massive burst in a game is doable with targeted healing, youve got that Cleric watching your back ready to top ur health up. This game has nothing of the sort, the healing requires generally setting up and then executing in the case of blasts or wind up animations in the case of personal healing.

GW1’s solution to this was pre-prot: your monks needed to anticipate bursts and put relevant protections on you to reduce damage or soak attacks. This was way more fun than just having red bars go up and down.

GW2’s solution to this is dodging, evasion, blocking, invuln, and stun breaks. Some are preemptive, some are reactive. It’s very different from GW1 in execution but has a lot of the same underlying philosophy.

Nemain The Eyeless · [JOY] · Tarnished Coast · http://tcwvw.com

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Posted by: mikelevins.4639

mikelevins.4639

I’m a hardcore newb, scrub, terribad Mesmer as dubbed by the truly hardcore metabattle fanatics as seen in any thread/discussion I posted a gameplay vid in pre-patch. So if I can catch and dodge an incoming burst from a Mesmer, anyone can.

Well, that’s overstating things a little.

The average age of players in my guild is 55. We’ve been playing various games together for almost forty years, so it’s not like we’re new to gaming. On the other hand, we don’t all have really quick reaction times (or good vision or hearing or…) anymore, either.

Yes, average reaction time is somewhere around 0.3 second. Yes, it can be a lot faster than that in some people, especially if they are athletes. A couple of us used to do full-contact fighting as hobbies, and our reaction times were pretty quick when we were doing that. But time takes its toll. Some of us can still keep up with pretty quick players; others not so much.

That doesn’t mean GW2 has to make allowances, of course. Not every game has to be for every player. On the other hand, if a game’s designers want to make a place for older, slower players, there are ways to do that without penalizing younger, faster players. That’s one of the things you can use class design for.

Fast twitch speed isn’t identical with skill. There’s more than one kind of skill. If GW2 doesn’t want to make a place for slower players in its class design, that’s fine. As I said, not every game has to be for every player. If the designers want to do that, on the other hand, there’s nothing wrong with it, either.

But saying “anyone can” catch and dodge an incoming burst is overstating things a little. Just wait. You’ll get older and slower, too. :-)

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Posted by: Chorazin.4107

Chorazin.4107

I suppose 11 stacks of burning in 1-2 seconds is fine though right?

Nope, this will definitely get a nerf, when my engi can load 12 stacks of burn on someone in 5 seconds that are ticking for 4k there is an issue, it should be capped at say 5.

Saying we should nerf bursts because some people have low ping and some people how slow reaction times is just catering to the lowest denominator, and since Anet appears to want Gw2 to go in the Esport direction, I doubt they’ll nerf it nearly as much as everyone is hoping, because on the competitive scene most of these things are non-issues.

Thats why theres a thread with 80 replies about mesmers being OP in the sPvP forum? Because those pro sPvP players are having no problems dealing with them? Of course a company will cater to the lowest denominator, they have done this from the games inception with making it more casual friendly. Look at the stupid rally/downed state mechanics that favours zerging, those players for me should just be dead. It’s probably because these players are their biggest cash cow, casuals buying up stuff on the gem store so it makes sense to look after them.

There you have Guards specced specifically to keep everyone alive and they do a hell of a job at it too, whereas in solo-que or hotjoin, you’ll probably join a match full of zerkers so it isn’t surprising when everyone goes down in under 30 seconds.

This is all well and good for sPvP which is just 1 form of this game, what is the point of these healing/support guards in PvE? WvW they are useful but that is totally a different format again, you may be fine keeping someone up under the fire of 1 or 2 players in sPvP, scale that increase in DPS/burst up to WvW and large numbers of players and things auto die.

Guess you forgot to mention that with Churning Earth and Killshot’s big wind up, they’re almost never worth using unless you’re outnumbering a fight or somehow catch someone off guard. As soon as I see an ele 1v1ing me on point start to channel Churning Earth, I know they probably have no idea what they’re doing and are just using things off cd, back up just out of range to force them to blow lightning flash, and then I burst them. Killshot is pretty much the same way, maybe worse because adrenaline dissipates when not in combat. If I see a warrior trying to killshot me, blink towards them, get mirror, throw out mirror blade. Majority of the time they just downed themselves because they weren’t smart enough to cancel killshot. Good warriors will use Killshot to bait dodges and once they know you’re out, only then do they actually land it. Sadly, a majority of them just use it to fill in time between cds and get punished for it.

Again you are looking at it from a simply sPvP perspective, there is PvE and WvW to consider.

This game doesn’t have a devoted “Cleric” class because they want to avoid exactly what you stated. People make stupid decisions and play with much less risk when there’s someone sitting right behind them topping them off after every single mistake. You’re not supposed to face tank things in this game, even if you’re the tankiest warrior or a 3k armor guardian. Dodging/evading is and always should be superior to tanking hits.

Because getting bursted from stealth is a mistake, especially when said class could be in stealth for 20+ seconds? You might not even know he is there, probably dont see him at all until the burst comes in. In any event it becomes a prediction not a skill, overall im not convinced having this sort of burst in game is good for the game as a whole. Sure in the microcosm that is sPvP with a cap of 5 players and no power creep it is probably fine. But for the more casual players out there in WvW im not convinced.

Chorazin
[lion]~ riperonis
[tRex]

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Posted by: Necrotize.2974

Necrotize.2974

Not really gonna discuss PvE because windup, stealth bursts and pretty much everything else mean very little there. In PvE, dps is king but you could get by on anything really if you play well enough or have a good enough party.

As for WvW, the reason I skipped over this is because once its brought up, most people jump straight to their roaming experience, which should have nothing to do with balance as 1v1 and small group roaming are not a supported game mode. As for zerg v zerg, it doesn’t really matter much what everyone is running, so long as you have enough people, you move as a group and your commander knows how to call out for what they need and the people that have it provide it in time. I don’t know a whole lot about zerg v zerg tactics, but I’d imagine individual player builds and stealth bursts have little to do with it unless you’re talking Veil chaining and stealthing the whole group.

SPvP is the easiest place to look at it as there is a set pool of runes/sigils, stats are equalized and there are only so many stat combinations you can take. And with Anet trying to move in the Esport direction, its pretty clear they want SPvP to be a big attraction factor for new players and potentially competitive players.

As for the “mesmers are OP” thread in the SPvP forums, there are mixed replies in there and some people are obviously just whining. Everytime something changes, there’s always someone complaining because they feel they got the short stick. And nothing baits a stampede of posts like calling someone’s class OP/skill-less. Some people make good points and are logical on both sides, others are obviously just kitten/blindly defending things.

As for getting bursted from stealth in WvW. Casual players trying to roam is their first mistake. When you leave the amulets and stats being handed to you in SPvP for WvW, you can’t expect to do nearly as well as someone decked out in full ascended or exotics when you’re sporting rares. Casual players are probably more suited for what WvW was intended for, moving as a large group and working as a team, not roaming around by themselves and looking around.

In PvE it doesn’t really matter as stealth is primarily used for skipping enemies, not getting a “surprise attack” on an NPC.

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Posted by: Chorazin.4107

Chorazin.4107

PvE is a windup? I pointed to PvE for certain arguments, your argument that killshot and churning are useless is just a view from sPvP. These burst abilities do just fine in PvE where as you stated DPS is king. They also do fine in WvW where you could be getting pressured by multiple characters, yeah in a duel you are going to notice the killshot/Churning, not always the case in WvW. If warriors had a long uptime on stealth and you could execute 12k killshot bursts from stealth would you have an issue with the ability?

Of course there are multiple people complaining in the mesmers are OP thread, there will always be people whining. But a part of the complaints are burst coupled with long stealth uptime. How many Engineers are OP threads are there now grenade barrage burst has been fixed? How about Rangers?

You are right casual players should not be roaming but they have to get to the tag somehow, especially if the port is contested, which means running across open ground. But to think people are running out in WvW in rares is like welcome to 2 years ago. 80s will have exotics.

How is it clear that they want sPvP to be a big Esport attraction? Seems GvG generates more interest no?

I dont think any argument anyone puts forward would make me rethink the fact this sort of burst from stealth is good for the game as a whole. Especially when you take into account players from all over the world and a very large casual pool of players. What was wrong with mesmer shatter burst before the patch? The problem and complaints i saw on threads was thieves hard countering mesmers. Not mesmers complaining that their DPS was low.

Chorazin
[lion]~ riperonis
[tRex]

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Posted by: DaShi.1368

DaShi.1368

I agree that the burst from stealth is a problem, but not the stealth up time. Is it advantageous? Yes, of course. Is it OP? Without the ability to summon and proc Power Block without losing stealth, no.

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Posted by: MailMail.6534

MailMail.6534

I’ve notice that people are saying they are being one shotted by mesmers, and this is indicative of OPness, but the full mesmer burst happens between 1-2 seconds, can people not react to this?

Because unless you have Blink+Distortion off CD, it’s hard to avoid if the Mesmer is doing their burst out of stealth and simultaneously CC-ing you.

Several ways that I have mitigated a Mesmer shatter burst:

  • Scepter 2 block + Distortion
  • Multiple shatters = multiple blinds
  • Signet of Midnight stunbreaks their CC while also giving an unblockable AOE blind. Yea, I’m one of those Mesmers that run S. Midnight very often. haha
  • Blinking far away.
  • Anticipating the burst with Distortion alone. Works even if you don’t have any clones up, as you’ll still mitigate a ton of dmg.

I don’t tend to get one shot often being that I’m running a rabid Temporal Condi Shatter build. Like I mentioned previously, it only happens against a Pee Eww zerker when Blink and Distortion are simultaneously on CD.

https://www.twitch.tv/thatcho
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”

(edited by MailMail.6534)