Guild Wars 2

I main a Ele and i very much have fun with it. I do however like to play my Mesmer from time to time. The problem i have is defense. Sure we have Stealth, PU and Disoration but that is pretty much it.

When on my ele, i can take hits better (due to having very high Toughness) though that is countered by my lower health and i have plenty of access to mobility skills in combat as well as plenty of ways to heal in combat.

On my mesmer it seems seems i am rather weak. I know the big difference in Toughness accounts for some of it but it seems once i take damage i don’t really have any ways of regaining health without using my heal.

To me, it just seems Stealth and PU aren’t really enough to counter that. On my ele i have heals, i have boons, i have defensive skills and it just seems i can last that little bit longer in a fight. How do you guys go about building for defense?

i use staff… lol

k for serious now..

tell what build u r running, including gears and weapons etc, can help u out after that

Exotic knight’s gear combined with healing mantra and blurred frenzy (sword 2), and well timed dodges of course. For conditions I have the condition removal mantra.

Mesmer has tons of active defense. Sword 2 is a several second evade. Sword 4 is a great block that also hits like a truck. Scepter 2 or 3 (I forget which) is another nice block. Perma-vigor is easy to obtain with 5 points in dueling. All of these are great forms of defense.

Scepter 2 is the block. That does remind me I forgot to mention my pistol 5 for part of my defenses.

Lately I’ve been running this build in WvW and PvP which provides good active defense in both weapon sets (without using PU):
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Build-Vid-Chaotic-Perdition-WvW-PvP

Wyrden.4713:

k for serious now..

tell what build u r running, including gears and weapons etc, can help u out after that

I am currently running Greatsword and Sword/Pistol. I know the Sword has Blurred Frenzy but the fact you can’t move or anything makes it a little bit weaker and now that its a Evade rather than Invul means that i can still be damaged through it.

Gear wise a bit of everything. I have 1,700 Power, just under 1,600 Toughness, 18.6k Health, 693 Condition Damage 35% Crit Chance and 69% Crit Damage.

Traits wise i am:

Domination(0) :
Dueling(25) : II, X
Chaos(30) : IV, V, XII
Inspiration(0)
Illusions(15) : II

Not quite sure what the idea of this build was when i actually first started making it.

Staff alone is great defense
Staff #2, Blink, and perma-vigor from minor Dueling trait
Decoy is my fav

Seras.5702:

Staff alone is great defense
Staff #2, Blink, and perma-vigor from minor Dueling trait
Decoy is my fav

Not really a fan of the staff. Decoy is nice but i am talking about defense after you have taken a 6k back stab. With my ele i would go Water and be pretty much full health in seconds. Mesmer doesnt seem to have any of that. Even the new Heal they got is kinda weak seeing as its every 3 seconds.

That’s why I started going 0/10/0/30/30 with Restorative Illusions and IP. I was amazed how eles can recover from a burst such easily. I heal +2000 with every shatter, also Mantra of Recovery gives instant healing.
The problem is you give up a lot of pressure, so its much harder to kill well-rounded builds…

I’ll wait to new critical damage change and see how it will affect.

If you’re looking for healing, mantras are my favorite. You get two charges per cast and you can use them at any time, even during stuns or skill animations without interrupting the skills. So I don’t really have to stop attacking to heal or cure conditions.

Kill them faster than they can kill you. And kite…a lot.

Looking more towards Regen and such. It just seems because Mesmer have Stealth and PU that they have been rather shafted when it comes to recovering health.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Seras.5702:

Staff alone is great defense
Staff #2, Blink, and perma-vigor from minor Dueling trait
Decoy is my fav

Not really a fan of the staff. Decoy is nice but i am talking about defense after you have taken a 6k back stab. With my ele i would go Water and be pretty much full health in seconds. Mesmer doesnt seem to have any of that. Even the new Heal they got is kinda weak seeing as its every 3 seconds.

In my opinion, the best defense is avoiding the damage. But that can’t happen all the time obviously. In my experience, Ele is better suited to eating a hit and healing, while Mesmer is better suited to avoid the damage in the first place.

Restorative Mantras is nice, giving you an available heal almost all the time. And Restorative Illusions keeps a shatter mesmer topped off constantly.

Also, I find that being able to stealth, blink, and heal while my illusions continue to pound on my enemy is helpful. I disappear and they have to decide to abandon me and take out my phantasms (giving me time to heal) or ignore them and chase me (allowing my phantasms to whittle him down).

Yeah i looked at Restorative Mantras. Shame that its only on the charge that grants the health. Though guess having it on the Charge and usage could be a little too strong. Restorative Illusions seems solid as well, Just a shame that i can’t go 30 into Inspiration without being hit hard elsewhere and the Healing isn’t that amazing. 1.2k Health isn’t that great for a 30point trait.

Also a shame that IM has a 15seocnd cool down, combined with Phantasmal Healing it would have been VERY good.

My main is Mesmer and recently I put a lot of time in my Elementalist. I also put points along the Water line to get health regen and heal while use trinkets to gain Power and Precision. However, in my Mesmer I have nothing on Inspiration. Instead, I have points in Chaos to get Metaphysical Rejuvenation and use trinkets to gain vitality and healing power. I prefer Mantra of Recovery and use stealth to cover the channeling.

Does Illuionary Persona work with Restorative Illusions? I mean if i had 3 our would i get extra healing seeing as the shatter effect happens on me as well?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Does Illuionary Persona work with Restorative Illusions? I mean if i had 3 our would i get extra healing seeing as the shatter effect happens on me as well?

Yes, you get 4x heals rather than 3. Actually, according to the wiki, there’s a bug that doubles your healing when both RI and IP are traited.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vgAQNAR8al0npRtdqxENcrNSYqQwP9I5O/5oeodv/dA-zUCBoeAYLRmgAI7ZIrZRRsMsIas6ZRWhET7SIFA-w

This is the build i am currently looking at. Though kind of a worry not having PU or DE in the build. Now if that bug is correct i would get like 2,600 every shatter. That would be rather nice.

Not sure about the food or other Sigils.
What would you guys change?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Seras.5702:

Staff alone is great defense
Staff #2, Blink, and perma-vigor from minor Dueling trait
Decoy is my fav

Not really a fan of the staff. Decoy is nice but i am talking about defense after you have taken a 6k back stab. With my ele i would go Water and be pretty much full health in seconds. Mesmer doesnt seem to have any of that. Even the new Heal they got is kinda weak seeing as its every 3 seconds.

Firstly, you’re not talking about actual defense, you’re talking about recovery. Defense prevents you from taking the hits, recovery allows you to keep going after taking them. Mesmer has both.

On mesmer, you shouldn’t be taking that 6k backstab. You should dodge it with blurred frenzy, block it with the sword or scepter block, aegis it with chaos storm, let a clone eat it with deceptive evasion, etc.

However, in the event that you do take the backstab, you’ve got a lot of options for recovery. First, mesmers have a ton of access to the regeneration boon, so that’s just sorta a static ticking that will heal you. Additionally, the mesmer main heal ether feast will heal for 7500 health with 3 illusions, scaling 1.3 with healing power. This is a huge chunk of health, even for a class with medium hp. On top of that, if you so choose, you can trait to do aoe heals of 2600 every time you charge a mantra.

Looking at ele skills, ether renewal heals for 5000. However, that’s over a long, easily interruptable 4s channel. You can also trait to heal for about 1.2k when you attune to water, can trait to heal for 1.2k when you dodge in water, can use skills that heal you for between 800 and 1.2k (trident, cone of cold, cleansing wave, geyser). However, when you do this you sacrifice all offensive capability, burn multiple long cooldowns, and are potentially forced into several specific traits and traitlines. Mesmer just needs to press their main heal.

Pyroathiest.4168:

Firstly, you’re not talking about actual defense, you’re talking about recovery. Defense prevents you from taking the hits, recovery allows you to keep going after taking them. Mesmer has both.

On mesmer, you shouldn’t be taking that 6k backstab. You should dodge it with blurred frenzy, block it with the sword or scepter block, aegis it with chaos storm, let a clone eat it with deceptive evasion, etc.

Sorry, yeah meant more in the recovery. It’s not as easy as “dodge” or “blurred Frenzy” it, you have to KNOW its coming first. IF you know its coming you do have a few options. However if you don’t know that it is coming and you take the damage which can be done when they have such access to stealth. It is after that that i am having issues with.

Pyroathiest.4168:

However, in the event that you do take the backstab, you’ve got a lot of options for recovery. First, mesmers have a ton of access to the regeneration boon, so that’s just sorta a static ticking that will heal you. Additionally, the mesmer main heal ether feast will heal for 7500 health with 3 illusions, scaling 1.3 with healing power. This is a huge chunk of health, even for a class with medium hp. On top of that, if you so choose, you can trait to do aoe heals of 2600 every time you charge a mantra.

Ton of regeneration? I am guessing you are talking about PU and the trait for granting Regen from Phantasms. Yeah so you take 6k Backstab, Heal back up after using the heal – then what? This is my problem. I can survive the first BS but after that is where it becomes a bit tougher to recover.

Pyroathiest.4168:

Looking at ele skills, ether renewal heals for 5000. However, that’s over a long, easily interruptable 4s channel. You can also trait to heal for about 1.2k when you attune to water, can trait to heal for 1.2k when you dodge in water, can use skills that heal you for between 800 and 1.2k (trident, cone of cold, cleansing wave, geyser). However, when you do this you sacrifice all offensive capability, burn multiple long cooldowns, and are potentially forced into several specific traits and traitlines. Mesmer just needs to press their main heal.

My Ether Renewal heals for around 6,500 in total but i only use that when i know i am going to be fighting Condition builds. outside of that i have heals from going into water, heals from rolling in water, 2 heal skills in water as well. of course i run awith around 800Healing Power so its a bit higher. Going into water and Dodging in Water can be upwards of 5k healing. Ignoring the Regen that i get which is about 1.5k as well.

Pyroathiest.4168:

On mesmer, you shouldn’t be taking that 6k backstab. You should dodge it with blurred frenzy, block it with the sword or scepter block, aegis it with chaos storm, let a clone eat it with deceptive evasion, etc.

Pretty much this. You shouldn’t be thinking about what to do after taking a backstab. You should be thinking about how to avoid a backstab in the first place, since that’s where mesmers excel. Abuse your blocks, distortion, daze, evades, blinks, aegis, and stealth. That should be more than enough defensive maneuvers to avoid backstabs.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Pyroathiest.4168:

Firstly, you’re not talking about actual defense, you’re talking about recovery. Defense prevents you from taking the hits, recovery allows you to keep going after taking them. Mesmer has both.

On mesmer, you shouldn’t be taking that 6k backstab. You should dodge it with blurred frenzy, block it with the sword or scepter block, aegis it with chaos storm, let a clone eat it with deceptive evasion, etc.

Sorry, yeah meant more in the recovery. It’s not as easy as “dodge” or “blurred Frenzy” it, you have to KNOW its coming first. IF you know its coming you do have a few options. However if you don’t know that it is coming and you take the damage which can be done when they have such access to stealth. It is after that that i am having issues with.

Even if they catch you by surprise, decoy, dodge (assuming you have deceptive evasion), and ether feast. Now you’ve recovered most of the damage and you know it’s coming again, so you can abuse all your evades/distortions/blocks/dazes, etc., and you really shouldn’t be hit again.

mango.9267:

Pretty much this. You shouldn’t be thinking about what to do after taking a backstab. You should be thinking about how to avoid a backstab in the first place, since that’s where mesmers excel. Abuse your blocks, distortion, daze, evades, blinks, aegis, and stealth. That should be more than enough defensive maneuvers to avoid backstabs.

As i have already stated. That only works if you see them coming. If you have no idea they are there then you stand little chance of avoiding it. I have noticed some that will go right for backstab and save Bask venom for later in the fight.

+1 for dodging and not worrying so much about how to combat their stabs with defense. I know this may seem easier to say than execute in practice, but it’s the best advice.

Thieves have tells, for example most of the backstabs come from cloak and dagger, and they can only be in stealth for 3 seconds. So when you see them stealth, it’s a generally good idea to count to 3 then dodge/BF, etc. Some thieves will try to bait that cooldown out, but most I’d say go for it.

At the very least, dodge is your friend so I’d be most concerned with your endurance output in your build if you have trouble with thieves.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vgAQNAR8al0npRtdqxENcrNSYqQwP9I5O/5oeodv/dA-zUCBoeAYLRmgAI7ZIrZRRsMsIas6ZRWhET7SIFA-w

This is the build i am currently looking at. Though kind of a worry not having PU or DE in the build. Now if that bug is correct i would get like 2,600 every shatter. That would be rather nice.

Not sure about the food or other Sigils.
What would you guys change?

Any views on this build? Terrible? Decent?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vgAQNAR8al0npRtdqxENcrNSYqQwP9I5O/5oeodv/dA-zUCBoeAYLRmgAI7ZIrZRRsMsIas6ZRWhET7SIFA-w

This is the build i am currently looking at. Though kind of a worry not having PU or DE in the build. Now if that bug is correct i would get like 2,600 every shatter. That would be rather nice.

Not sure about the food or other Sigils.
What would you guys change?

Any views on this build? Terrible? Decent?

Some interesting choices, but overall I have no idea what you’re trying to do. I’ll start off by saying 10 in chaos there is a waste – better off putting 10 in duelling or domination (mental torment).

A few other things:
- you’ve take precise wrack, but your crit chance and damage is incredibly low.
- phantasmal haste, when two of your GM traits, and vigorous revelation revolve around shatters.
-pretty much zero condition removal – you need some way to remove dangerous conditions at a key moment in a fight, fast, or you’ll melt.
- Healing power gear – negligable difference to traited heals – eg mantras, and overall the least useful stat for any mesmer build.
- mediocre condition damage, and powers to apply them.
- very low power and direct damage in general.
- there’s more, but I’ll leave it at that…

What it seems to me is that you’re going for some sort of support shatter hybrid? Please correct me if I’m wrong. Unfortunately you’ve crippled all your damage output sources, while not gaining much in the form of survivability.

Maybe when the patch hits, a condition shatter/support could be viable and work for you?

skcamow.3527:

+1 for dodging and not worrying so much about how to combat their stabs with defense. I know this may seem easier to say than execute in practice, but it’s the best advice.

Thieves have tells, for example most of the backstabs come from cloak and dagger, and they can only be in stealth for 3 seconds. So when you see them stealth, it’s a generally good idea to count to 3 then dodge/BF, etc. Some thieves will try to bait that cooldown out, but most I’d say go for it.

At the very least, dodge is your friend so I’d be most concerned with your endurance output in your build if you have trouble with thieves.

count 2, it works 90% of the time, 3 is alrdy too late, i always go backwards when thief in cloak and dagger stealth, use blurred frenzy when i am between 1-2

Three things to learn from this thread:

1) A mesmer’s best defense is a good offense.
2) A mesmer’s second-best defense is prevention-before-cure.
3) A mesmer must be capable of predicting what their enemy will do.

In fewer words, this means that mesmer doesn’t have as much active defense as other professions and we have to learn to deal with that. ArenaNet feels this is fair (apparently) because we have a higher amount of passive defense. Once you learn how to predict, you no longer have to react.

While this is kittened, it does mean that playing mesmer will make you better at every other profession.

Charging that mantra is like using ether renewal against a thief: free backstabbing and you will lose more health than you gain. Without DE, you will also have pretty low clone generation so shatters/heals won’t happen often nor will your phantasm DPS. Overall, this build will accomplish nothing but slowly bleeding out (not actual bleeding condition but this also has no condition removal) without doing any damage.

If you can’t avoid the first backstab, decoy and ether feast. From there it’s about active damage avoidance since now you know another backstab will be coming soon enough. Everyone’s mentioned some form of this because mesmers don’t have recovery like a 0/10/0/30/30 DD ele. If you need a crutch, PU with aegis/protection is to prevent further damage from happening. Regen is just icing.

Curunen.8729:

Some interesting choices, but overall I have no idea what you’re trying to do. I’ll start off by saying 10 in chaos there is a waste – better off putting 10 in duelling or domination (mental torment).

Taking the 10 in Choas for the little added Boon Duration, Toughness and Debilitating Dissipation. The added conditions can be pretty decent and help a little bit as well. Though Mental Torment seems like a decent alternative though.

Curunen.8729:

A few other things:
- you’ve take precise wrack, but your crit chance and damage is incredibly low.
- phantasmal haste, when two of your GM traits, and vigorous revelation revolve around shatters.

I wouldn’t really call 44% Crit damage incredibly low, the Crit Chance is rather low i can agree with that. I could swap it out for the Shatter Recharge trait though. I could also grab Confusing Cry maybe to replace Precise Wrack?

Curunen.8729:

-pretty much zero condition removal – you need some way to remove dangerous conditions at a key moment in a fight, fast, or you’ll melt.
- Healing power gear – negligable difference to traited heals – eg mantras, and overall the least useful stat for any mesmer build.

Yeah conditions are a serious worry. Not quite sure how i could really get around that. Any tips would be much welcome. Yeah i do agree their, it seems that 101 Healing Power is like 20 added to the healing of Restorative Illusions. Removing the healing Power from Armor and accessories still means i would heal for 1,300 from Restorative Illusions so i could replace that gear with Solider Armor and Bers+Valk accessories that would increase my Precision to 22% and my Critical damage to 60% or maybe replace the rings with Dire+Rapid seeing as i would be shattering a lot and the Confusion from them would be decent damage.

Curunen.8729:

- mediocre condition damage, and powers to apply them.
- very low power and direct damage in general.
- there’s more, but I’ll leave it at that…

Yeah the Condition damage is a bit low but would be primarily used for the Confusion from Shatters. Though i wouldn’t really call nearly 2,000Power (with sigil) Plus i would have 3 other sigils and both types of food to decide on. 3,000Attack Power and 44% crit Damage doesnt seem that bad.

Curunen.8729:

What it seems to me is that you’re going for some sort of support shatter hybrid? Please correct me if I’m wrong. Unfortunately you’ve crippled all your damage output sources, while not gaining much in the form of survivability.

Maybe when the patch hits, a condition shatter/support could be viable and work for you?

crippled my damage output sources? The Phantasms would still be doing solid damage, the Shatters when combined with the healing, the Might and the Confusion would be quite strong as well.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vgAQNAR8al0npRtdqxENcrNSc6Ryd+zR9Y7g/7kK0aA-zECBoeAYLRmgAI7pIaslhFRjVJLyKkYaXCpAA-w

How about this? Moved the 10 points from Chaos into Domination for the increased Mind Wrack damage. swapped the Illusions traits to Confusing Cry (for now) and Illusionary Invigoration.

Removed the Cleric armor and replaced with soldiers and replaced the Apothecary accessories with Dire+Rabid

Compared to the other build it would be a Increase to Power, Attack Power, Precision, Vitality, Health, Condition Damage, Condition Duration, at the cost of a loss in Toughness, Healing Power, Boon Duration. I would still have Both sets of food and 3 sigils to decide on as well.

Wyrden.4713:

skcamow.3527:

+1 for dodging and not worrying so much about how to combat their stabs with defense. I know this may seem easier to say than execute in practice, but it’s the best advice.

Thieves have tells, for example most of the backstabs come from cloak and dagger, and they can only be in stealth for 3 seconds. So when you see them stealth, it’s a generally good idea to count to 3 then dodge/BF, etc. Some thieves will try to bait that cooldown out, but most I’d say go for it.

At the very least, dodge is your friend so I’d be most concerned with your endurance output in your build if you have trouble with thieves.

count 2, it works 90% of the time, 3 is alrdy too late, i always go backwards when thief in cloak and dagger stealth, use blurred frenzy when i am between 1-2

hehe, it’s that “3 and” or “on 3” thingy … I guess I find most wait out the full stealth.
ofc this only works if it’s a d/d thief.

In my condi build I consider my main defence outside of my endurance is my fully traited Phase Retreat (6 seconds). It creates distance between me and my foe and acts as a sort of stun breaker, allowing me to actively avoid damage whilst my Duellists pummel the baddies.

In my shatter build, it’s a combination of Blurred Frenzy, on-demand cloneless Distortion/Diversion and The prestige. It’s all about active damage avoidance.

When fighting Thieves I find the effectiveness of my active damage mitigation as a Mesmer it often dependent on the patience of the Thief. Many Thieves will go for a backstab, seemingly panic when you’ve dodged the first attempt and then go into a ridiculous auto-attack spam allowing your illusions to eat away at them. However, a half decent Thief that has missed their initial backstab window will simply CnD (off of you or an illusion) or BP + HS as soon as they’re stealth ends and try again. Then it becomes a case of preserving and intelligently pacing your damage avoidance.

Or you could just go full rabid PU and then you don’t really have to worry about Thieves (unless they’re P/D).

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vgAQNAR8al0npRtdqxENcrNSYqQwP9I5O/5oeodv/dA-zUCBoeAYLRmgAI7ZIrZRRsMsIas6ZRWhET7SIFA-w

This is the build i am currently looking at. Though kind of a worry not having PU or DE in the build. Now if that bug is correct i would get like 2,600 every shatter. That would be rather nice.

Not sure about the food or other Sigils.
What would you guys change?

Any views on this build? Terrible? Decent?

It’s pretty bad, honestly.

First off, you’ve got quite literally 0 access to condition removal. Some highly offensive shatter builds will run this way fully understanding that they need to kill things really fast in order to survive. Your build doesn’t have this self-awareness, and it seems to be an oversight.

Secondly, how exactly do you intend on doing damage at all? You’ve got phantasmal haste, as if your phantasms are supposed to do damage. You’ve got precise wrack and illusionary persona, as if your shatters are supposed to do damage. However, your stats don’t even begin to approach something that is offensive (17% crit chance, 1650 power), and you have incredibly low illusion generation due to a lack of DE. Unfortunately, you also have a highly offensive weaponset of GS+s/p. This means that your options for active defense are limited.

So lets recap. You have almost no offense to speak of. Your phantasms won’t hurt. Your shatters won’t hurt, and you won’t be able to shatter often. You have very little active defense, so it’ll be hard for you to avoid damage. You have 0 access to condition removal. Pretty much the only thing your build does effectively is heal. Unfortunately, since you have no offensive pressure and very few ways to actually avoid damage, any decent player will kill you anyway, it’ll just take longer.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Taking the 10 in Choas for the little added Boon Duration, Toughness and Debilitating Dissipation. The added conditions can be pretty decent and help a little bit as well. Though Mental Torment seems like a decent alternative though.

Because you have ipersona and two other on-shatter traits, and the trait allocation is heavily focused towards frequent shattering, putting points specificallt towards using a trait that only works on clone death is a waste.

I wouldn’t really call 44% Crit damage incredibly low, the Crit Chance is rather low i can agree with that. I could swap it out for the Shatter Recharge trait though. I could also grab Confusing Cry maybe to replace Precise Wrack?

You’ve got to think what each shatter skill does: #1 direct damage, #2 condition (mediocre), #3 interrupts/daze, #4 panic button/secure stomp/etc…
For #1 to be effective, and especially if it is the focus of the build, you need high precision first (at least 40%), and to capitalise on burst you would be well off with at least 60% crit damage, though I’d push higher for at least 70 or 80%.

Anything you take away from that and it loses it’s edge, especially if traited around – sure this can work with multiple sources of damage, but usually turns out to be less effective. Yes you’ve got the confusion on shatter trait, but it’s not significant.

For #2 you can do with any way of buffing conditions – but overall it is a lackluster shatter and mainly to supplement #1. You can build around retaliation, where the trait that gives retal on #2 comes in handy, but this is no longer as effective. After the patch, condition shatter looks like it might be an interesting spec so potentially you might get more mileage from this again.

Yeah conditions are a serious worry. Not quite sure how i could really get around that. Any tips would be much welcome. Yeah i do agree their, it seems that 101 Healing Power is like 20 added to the healing of Restorative Illusions. Removing the healing Power from Armor and accessories still means i would heal for 1,300 from Restorative Illusions so i could replace that gear with Solider Armor and Bers+Valk accessories that would increase my Precision to 22% and my Critical damage to 60% or maybe replace the rings with Dire+Rapid seeing as i would be shattering a lot and the Confusion from them would be decent damage.

I would drop vitality down – use what you get from that to boost power and other damage output, as well as toughness if you like. 23k is pretty high, but not really worth going that high in vitality at the moment.
Grab some condition removal utility – such as mantra of resolve, arcane thievery or null field. I would avoid disenchanter if you’re frequently shattering, unless you can time it perfectly to get one or two attacks off before shatter.
Failing that, take mender’s purity.

Yeah the Condition damage is a bit low but would be primarily used for the Confusion from Shatters. Though i wouldn’t really call nearly 2,000Power (with sigil) Plus i would have 3 other sigils and both types of food to decide on. 3,000Attack Power and 44% crit Damage doesnt seem that bad.

You need to think how you will execute attacks – taking advantage of openings and how you can maximise damage when the opportunity arises. Just having a mix of condition and direct damage stats (when both are at mediocre levels) is not necessarily going to work out, unless you have a specific game plan.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

crippled my damage output sources? The Phantasms would still be doing solid damage, the Shatters when combined with the healing, the Might and the Confusion would be quite strong as well.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vgAQNAR8al0npRtdqxENcrNSc6Ryd+zR9Y7g/7kK0aA-zECBoeAYLRmgAI7pIaslhFRjVJLyKkYaXCpAA-w

How about this? Moved the 10 points from Chaos into Domination for the increased Mind Wrack damage. swapped the Illusions traits to Confusing Cry (for now) and Illusionary Invigoration.

Removed the Cleric armor and replaced with soldiers and replaced the Apothecary accessories with Dire+Rabid

Compared to the other build it would be a Increase to Power, Attack Power, Precision, Vitality, Health, Condition Damage, Condition Duration, at the cost of a loss in Toughness, Healing Power, Boon Duration. I would still have Both sets of food and 3 sigils to decide on as well.

While it looks a little better than the previous link, I still think it is trying to juggle too many things at once while being below average at each.

Your phantasms will do reasonable damage, but for one attack maybe before shatter?

You’re trying to mix:
- direct damage shatter (burst – high damage in short time interval)
- condition damage through shatter/phantasm (mostly sustained damage)
- phantasm damage (mix of both, but counter productive with shatter),
while maintaining some group support through aoe heals.

There’s a reason entire builds are dedicated to specialising in one or two aspects, because otherwise each aspect suffers.
In order to balance such a hybrid, you need to be absolutely clear on your gameplan, skill usage and timing.

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

Three things to learn from this thread:

1) A mesmer’s best defense is a good offense.
2) A mesmer’s second-best defense is prevention-before-cure.
3) A mesmer must be capable of predicting what their enemy will do.

In fewer words, this means that mesmer doesn’t have as much active defense as other professions and we have to learn to deal with that. ArenaNet feels this is fair (apparently) because we have a higher amount of passive defense. Once you learn how to predict, you no longer have to react.

While this is kittened, it does mean that playing mesmer will make you better at every other profession.

Hm. I’m not sure I just read the same thread as you did. I read a thread that was full of suggestions to use the unbelievably abundant active defense that mesmer has available to avoid damage.

Curunen.8729:

You’ve got to think what each shatter skill does: #1 direct damage, #2 condition (mediocre), #3 interrupts/daze, #4 panic button/secure stomp/etc…

For #1 to be effective, and especially if it is the focus of the build, you need high precision first (at least 40%), and to capitalise on burst you would be well off with at least 60% crit damage, though I’d push higher for at least 70 or 80%.

That is true. Though CoF can be pretty decent when taking the 5point trait so that it inflicts 6 stacks of Confusion. While not insane on its own, could work well when combined with the damage, Might and Confusion from Mind Wrack.

With all shatters inflicting Confusion. Granting Health and Might it could be pretty decent. Is the Torment trait going to be in Illusions? depending on the stacks i would say at least 2 stacks per a shattered illusion and that could be pretty solid option as well.

I do have Food and Sigils to use as well, so i could go with the Power and Crit Damage food as a starting point. Maybe swap a bit of stuff out, As 23k health isn’t really needed I could go with either some Cavalier or Knight Armor stats, keep the Toughness but swap the Vitality for Critical Damage could be worth it.

Curunen.8729:

Anything you take away from that and it loses it’s edge, especially if traited around – sure this can work with multiple sources of damage, but usually turns out to be less effective. Yes you’ve got the confusion on shatter trait, but it’s not significant.

For #2 you can do with any way of buffing conditions – but overall it is a lackluster shatter and mainly to supplement #1. You can build around retaliation, where the trait that gives retal on #2 comes in handy, but this is no longer as effective. After the patch, condition shatter looks like it might be an interesting spec so potentially you might get more mileage from this again.

Thinking about swapping precise Wrack out for Confusing Cry, for now at least. The Confusion and decent Retal up time would be nice. Would be about 15seconds of Retal if i shatter 3 illusions, combine that with the Might and the Healing.

Curunen.8729:

I would drop vitality down – use what you get from that to boost power and other damage output, as well as toughness if you like. 23k is pretty high, but not really worth going that high in vitality at the moment.

Grab some condition removal utility – such as mantra of resolve, arcane thievery or null field. I would avoid disenchanter if you’re frequently shattering, unless you can time it perfectly to get one or two attacks off before shatter.
Failing that, take mender’s purity.

yeah already thought about that, if changed the armor to Cavalier, I would have 1700 Power, just under 1500 Toughness, just under 21k health and my Critical damage would be increased to 60%. This could be further increased with Food adding another 10%

As for Condition removal i am split between taking Mantra of Resolve or changing Restorative Mantras out for Menders Purity. Would Mender’s Purity proc on the Charge and usage of the heal Mantra?

Because if its on the charge and use of Mantras that would be 6 conditions cured every 10 seconds. Though good, would it be worth the loss of the heal on charge of Mantras?

Curunen.8729:

You need to think how you will execute attacks – taking advantage of openings and how you can maximise damage when the opportunity arises. Just having a mix of condition and direct damage stats (when both are at mediocre levels) is not necessarily going to work out, unless you have a specific game plan.

Yeah just need to find the right balance. I mean with the Killing stacks and the crit damage i would have 3,100 Attack Power and 70% Crit Damage with just over 600Condition damage.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vgAQNAR8al0npRtdqxINcrNSc6RyBwzR9Y7g/7kK0aA-zECBoeAYLRmgAIVtIaslhFRjVJLyKkYaXCpiCIiA-w

Another little bit of tweaking. I could go with Condition Crystal that would increase my Condition damage to just over 750 and would still have 3 Sigils to decide what to use.

The Inspiration 20 trait i am not sure about, i could go with the remove Conditions on heal but lose the Heal on Mantra charge or grab the Mantra charge heal and use Mantra of resolve.

Have you tried watching some vids?

Here’s a 1v1 with a thief you might draw from.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmfdj4KucfE

There are tons of examples of predicting/countering the thiefs gameplay.

Here’s general gameplay vs a bunch of different classes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmfdj4KucfE

I think you’re making a mistake ignoring precision and Dueling. Dueling X increases clone generation dramatically and precision is secondary stat in most mesmer builds. Condition needs it for bleed stacks and power needs it to for crits. You’re not really getting either and I think your build will suffer because of it. You’re sturdy sure, but you are lacking both sustained condition damage and reliable burst.

Honestly, your build is kind of horrible. If your going to go shatter, you’d be better off going full glass and trying to burst them down quickly and survive on just your decoy/blink/distortion/blurred frenzy/interrupts.
Shatter builds by their nature are kind of high skill cap, and while you can survive with so little, it’s difficult and takes a lot of practice.

Against Thieves, you either want to blow them to pieces before they get a chance to react, ie go full burst. (they are fragile after all)
Or you want to try and counter what they are doing and punish them for making mistakes.

For the latter, I find that condi PU builds work quite well, Thieves condition removal isn’t that great, and some can really screw them up. Aigis is your best friend to counter backstabs. So either going into stealth, or better yet standing in Chaos Storm after Phase Retreating thru it for Chaos armor as well is a great way to kill that backstab.
The counter attack skill on either the scepter or offhand sword works great, as does a well timed Blurred Frenzy or Distortion.
Prestige on the torch can doubly screw them, first with the blind, and further more from Aigis with PU.

Unfortunately, our AOE options are limited without a visible target, but we do have a couple. Chaos Storm, naturally, but also the on clone death traits.
I find that they are very effective a ruining a thieves day. Esp Cripple and Confusion.
Thieves need their mobility or they are dead in the water, and confusion/retaliation eats them alive because they attack so quickly.

So if you get all three on clone death traits, you can overload them with conditions so keeping up high pressure on you just isn’t feasible without killing themselves.
Only problem is that without burst or high mobility yourself, it’s pretty difficult to stop the thief from just running away.
But surviving them is definitely possible with the right build.

I do understand your pain. I’ve had many past encounters where I’ve been roaming around, thinking everything is all fine and dandy, when suddenly a backstab thief with 3200k+ attack, 100%+ crit damage and 25 bloodlust stacks comes along and hits me with a backstab that I just cannot recover from (This was especially true if they were running mug and daze on steal). Or, I will recover using methods outlined above, but I find out that thief is good and knows how to be patient and force me to use my cds.

My solution to this was simple: get more armor. My armor with the builds I run ranges from 2500-2600 when playing shatter or zerker power PU and 2800-3100k when playing various phantasm builds (10/30/0/30/0, 10/20/0/25/15, 10/30/20/10). Now I just don’t even worry about it at all. And if i’m running staff, then i really don’t worry about it. A good amount of armor combined with knowing exactly what to do when a thief opens on you (other people outlined this above) is all the defense you need. At this point, a thief is going to have to outplay me to beat me. The downing me with one backstab and jumping on my body for 2mins while spamming /laugh days are over lol!

OP-
Having read through this thread, my thoughts are that you’d do well to spell out:
1. Where are you playing? WvW, Dungeons/Fractals, sPvP, open world?
Then-
2. Choose an appropriate play style for that environment. Shatter/Phantasm, Power/Condition/Lockdown, Roaming/Back or front line/Support/Pure DPS.
Finally-
3. Choose your weapons/traits/equipment that best fit #2. This should be as single-minded as possible, not “do everything.”

Osicat (see his stickied thread in this forum) discusses building for a purpose with great clarity.
Reading the Mesmer forum topic titles immediately reveals we have to focus on extremely specialized builds for success. “Chillruption, Blackwater, Shatter Cat,” etc. People have invested many playing hours to refine these specific-role builds- you’d profit by choosing and playing one. Then tweak to fit your button-pressing style.

Your original questions will be answered by having gone through the above process. Each build will address direct damage and condition damage as fits the environment and role you will be playing in.

Hope this helps.

@OP: Who mentions what to do after taking a 6k backstab:

You shouldn’t be hit with a 6k backstab in the first place. You shouldn’t be hit with a backstab; your best pro-active defences are going to come from you watching movement in the battlefield.
If you do see a backstab pop up, immediately dodge and pop decoy.

That’s my general rule of thumb. You should be able to work out where a theif is from there, and this is easier if you don’t have deceptive evasion up for a thief to cloak-and-dagger off of. Deceptive evasion is a trait that can really hurt you if you’re not set up specifically for the clones to be beneficial both alive and dead.

I run two builds, rotating regularly. They’re both very strong on the defensive aspects.

The first is one I’d been running for over a year which is:

Staff (hydromancy sigil) \ Sword (Bloodlust) +Pistol (Energy)

10 Domination (Crippling Dissipation as soft CC is invaluable)
30 Duelling (Phantasmal Fury, Duellist Discipline, Deceptive Evasion)
15 Chaos (Debilitating Dissipation, weakness being the major beneficial condition that procs here)
15 Illusion (for Illusionists Celerity)

Hybrid condition and critical damage build which is going to burn out an enemy at a steady rate. Being able to stun an incoming assault from 1200 range is fantastic, as is summoning a duellist from 1200 effectively sets up a solid passive offense against heavy stealth users due to the tracking, and they stay far away enough for them to be a real chore to take out.
8 second phase retreat coupled with the chill on the hydromancy sigil means getting out of an ugly situation. ALWAYS phase retreat through your chaos storm for chaos armor. This build is incredibly slippery in terms of in-combat and mid range mobility.

The second one is a power based PU build which is very much about stacking might, that I’ve been using more and more lately to great success:

Sword (Sigil of Bloodlust)+Torch (Sigil of Battle, important to this setup) \ Greatsword (Sigil of Battle, important again)

20 Domination (Empowered Illusions and Cleansing Conflagration)
20 Duelling (Far Reaching Manipulations which is a MUST and Phantasmal Fury, who even needs DE in a non-condition build? Really?)
30 Chaos (Illusionary Defence, Bountiful Interruption which bolsters your power if you time your interrupts right and Prismatic Understanding)

The first two utilities in each build never change for the most part. Blink and Decoy are musts. The third slot, depends. WvW? Veil or Portal. sPvP/tPvP? Arcane Thievery, or even Signet of Inspiration if you manage to accumulate some nice might stacks and want to share them around, in particular your massive amounts of protection and aegis from prismatic.

The 1200 range blink is the game changer. Any player is going to have difficult dealing with you being in one place in front of them, then 1100 points away from them and behind them dealing the max damage you can with your spatial surge. Also an incredibly important defensive tool is being aware of and learning about the areas in which you can blink to different altitudes. It’s the best way to play like a Mesmer and frustrate an opponent without even having to rely on clones.

As for the elite, Mass Invisibility for WvW, Polymorph Moa for sPvP/tPvP.

Personally I’m holding onto my Assassins armor set, and working my way towards a soldiers ascended trinket set. Celestial for a hybrid will generally not change for me.

Posting these because I feel they might be useful for the OP in terms of laying out a variety of defense examples, using different weapon sets, particular in the contrast between staff and greatsword. I can say honestly that I would not be able to use greatsword without using a long range traited blink in conjunction.

If you want to go Restorative Illusions + IP, best options are 10/0/0/30/30 or 0/10/0/30/30. First has better burst and second has better survivability. Stack quite a lot of toughness and focus on direct damage, those builds have very few ways to apply conditions.

for me i have found if i am just after surviving i will equip

set1
sword main hand + torch.
sword for the evasion from 2 and 3 cripples if anyone tries to chase me
torch applies blind as well as the invis which is nice and if you put down a field you apply chaos armour to everything in the area

set2
scepter + focus
scepter can block and spam clones which can distract (i also have trait to cripple when clones die) and focus i can run away with 4 and/or use it to knock down people/creeps

and for the other skills i usually use null field, feedback and decoy

ive tried other things but this has seemed best so far for pure survivability

Also don’t overlook the fact that ele’s lower health pool makes all heals look bigger on them. Ether Feast is an extremely strong heal, coupled with the regeneration from PU mesmers don’t have it too bad in PvP/WvW. If you do get caught out by a thief, you can always reset with stealth. If your cooldowns are not up, juke away from him with whatever stealth you have available. If you manage get caught out with absolutely no cooldowns up, well you die. Such is life in GW2 with thieves.