What base power (wvw roamers)?

What base power (wvw roamers)?

in Mesmer

Posted by: eldenbri.1059

eldenbri.1059

I’m curious what power roaming wvw mesmers typically have (for power roaming builds – either shatter or phantasm).

I’m around 2100 base plus 100 from the guard killer stacks and then whatever I get in might stacking. In most cases, this seems to produce plenty of damage.

I’m wondering what most people are running – trying to make some risk-reward decisions. Thx!

What base power (wvw roamers)?

in Mesmer

Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

Powers fine but crits and ferocity are where the damage is.

I seem to be running 2200 with 50-60 crit chance (70-80 with ferocity from runes/boon steal) and 220% critical damage.

Watch numbers risk/reward here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9zUSHO0HQo&feature=youtu.be

What base power (wvw roamers)?

in Mesmer

Posted by: Greyalis.2309

Greyalis.2309

also, any Mesmer use Superior Rune of Air, the ferocity and swiftness look like they may be good for wvw. ..

Self Is The Emblem All

What base power (wvw roamers)?

in Mesmer

Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

also, any Mesmer use Superior Rune of Air, the ferocity and swiftness look like they may be good for wvw. ..

It was a classic favorite back in the day, but Mesmers generally moved away from it back when the lightning strike was toned down.

What base power (wvw roamers)?

in Mesmer

Posted by: eldenbri.1059

eldenbri.1059

Thx. I’m at a similar crit chance, but lower crit damage.

Pondering swapping out a bit of defense for more offense…

What base power (wvw roamers)?

in Mesmer

Posted by: Hot Boy.7138

Hot Boy.7138

I moved away from superior rune of air after i noticed it was breaking my stealth quite often. Those lightning strikes were awesome though.

What base power (wvw roamers)?

in Mesmer

Posted by: Celeras.4980

Celeras.4980

Powers fine but crits and ferocity are where the damage is.

I seem to be running 2200 with 50-60 crit chance (70-80 with ferocity from runes/boon steal) and 220% critical damage.

Watch numbers risk/reward here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9zUSHO0HQo&feature=youtu.be

This is wrong. If you’re not softcapped (which you wont be), Power scales considerably better than Precision/Ferocity. It’s simple math, the damage formula = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor), and the DPS formula = Base damage * [ 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage + 0.5) ]

Since this thread is about WvW roamers, we’re talking either shatter or phantasm. Swordsman modifier is 1.925, Duelist is 0.275 (8 hits, total 2.2), and Mind Wrack is a weapon attack.

Lets use swordsman as an example since it’s the best DPS Phantasm. And lets assume an even 1000 weapon damage (max damage for a 1H exotic sword, and a nice round number), 2200 Power, 50% crit, and 200% crit damage as I think those are decent starting numbers. Lets also assume you’re fighting a target with 2000 armor, which should be about average since most WvW players will build with at least some survivability.

1000 * 2200 * 1.925 / 2000 = 2117.5 base damage. Now lets factor the crit rate with that number:
2117.5 * (1 + 0.5 * ( 0.5 + 0.5)) = 3176.25 DPS with the above stats on the above target.

Now increase power by 100.
1000 * 2300 * 1.925 / 2000 = 2213.75 base damage. With crit:
2213.5 * (1 + 0.5 * ( 0.5 + 0.5)) = 3320.25 DPS, or a 4.533% DPS increase from +100 power.

Now, increase precision by 100 instead of power (every 21 points of precision adds 1% to crit chance):
1000 * 2200 * 1.925 / 2000 = 2117.5 base damage.
2117.5 * (1 + 0.5476 * ( 0.5 + 0.5)) = 3277.043 DPS, or a 3.173% DPS increase from 100 precision.

Now for Ferocity (15 points of ferocity adds 1% crit damage).
1000 * 2200 * 1.925 / 2000 = 2117.5 base damage.
2117.5 * (1 + 0.5 * ( 0.5667 + 0.5)) = 3246.869 DPS, or a 2.223% DPS increase from 100 ferocity.

I’m not going to do every skill in the game for you, but that’s the comparison for our best DPS phantasm. And I promise you using different skills won’t change the results very much.

TLDR: Power > Precision > Ferocity. The only rare instances where increased crit stats will outweigh power is in PVT builds… and thats because your crit stats are at a super low starting point and you may be approaching a softcap on Power. And even THAT only applies to your food choice in very specialized situations (ie: crit food may be better than power food if you’re built full PVT with bloodlust stacks and might).

Thus concludes today’s lesson. You’re welcome.

[edit] By the way, when I said DPS above I didn’t actually mean damage-per-second.. but rather the average damage per strike. You would obviously have to multiply that number by the attack interval to get the actual damage-per-second for that ability. Doing so is insignificant for the purposes of this comparison though, and the percentages would remain identical.

(edited by Celeras.4980)

What base power (wvw roamers)?

in Mesmer

Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

Thus concludes today’s lesson. You’re welcome.

Mmm, but my class is still in session. Let’s look again, shall we?

First of all, there’s no such thing as a ‘soft-cap’ in GW2. What you do have is something called ‘math based diminishing returns’, where adding flat numbers to a larger number produces a smaller and smaller % change.

So let’s start with power. Power is pretty simple, as it’s not dependent on anything else. Damage goes up nice and linearly with power, but it is subject to math based diminishing returns. Starting with 2000 power, in order to get a 10% increase in damage, you need to add 200 power.

Precision and ferocity are less simple. Precision affects crit rate, and crit rate effectiveness is impacted by critical damage. This means that higher precision synergizes with higher ferocity, and then the total of that synergizes with higher power.

Now, the nice thing about all of this is that you can completely ignore things like damage coefficients, since this whole relationship is multiplicative. This means that your actual amount of damage increase on each skill will be different, but the % change will remain the same.

So the overall issue here is that relative effectiveness of precision and ferocity depends on how much precision and ferocity you already have, and it’s a positive correlation. This in particular means that a phantasm build with phantasmal fury gets a massive boost to critical chance, making crit power more effective. With power there’s also a relationship…but it’s negative. The more power you have, the less an equal amount more will increase your damage.

There’s a couple more things to consider as well. Critical hits are not purely extra damage. Crits can proc sigils, provide sharper images bleeds and proc critical infusion vigor, and your crit chance can be significantly boosted through fury, and that doesn’t obey the nice linear progressions of stats.

What’s the conclusion you can draw from this? Well, if you want to do damage, all 3 stats are important. Using berserker gear you essentially max out all of those stats in a way that provides theoretical maximum damage. However, when lowering those stats to add more defense to a build, prioritize lowering critical damage and power. Those two stats only lower damage itself, while lowering critical chance has other significant impacts on a build.

(edited by Fay.2357)

What base power (wvw roamers)?

in Mesmer

Posted by: Celeras.4980

Celeras.4980

Yes, that’s what I meant by soft cap. And yes, I feel all that was adequately covered by what I said.. though you went into far more detail than I was willing after showing the calculations

The conclusion itself does not change, however. Obviously all three stats are important.. but if you begin at a reasonable starting point you should never intentionally prioritize anything over Power.

It’s nice to say “but sigils! but traits!” however it simply doesn’t matter when you do the math. They don’t magically go away just because you built for +Power, and it’s not enough to close to gap. Go ahead and crunch the numbers for Sigil of Fire with multiple targets and Sharper Images if you’d like to see how far behind Precision will remain (phantasmal fury only increases the value of Ferocity.. which is the weakest of the bunch. Even with 100% crit rate, Ferocity is still worse than power). Again, this is assuming a reasonable starting point and not abnormally low critical stats like you would see in a PVT build as I described in my original reply.

And when you start talking about things like Critical Infusion, then you’re no longer talking about DPS and would have to start calculating effective health with active dodges. Good luck with that one!

(edited by Celeras.4980)

What base power (wvw roamers)?

in Mesmer

Posted by: eldenbri.1059

eldenbri.1059

Thx much for the help.

In my particular case, the crit chance does matter a lot as I’m using the crit for several things;
- Life steal food
- Sigils of generosity as part of condi handling strategy
- Proccing bleeds (especially with iDuelist)

So right now, the build I’m using is 2050 to 2100 power with a 59% crit chance for me and 79% for the phantasms. The damage on a critical hit is only %194 since ferocity is hard to stack up.

What I’m considering is giving up a bit more defense and swapping out one of my sentinel pieces for an assassins piece or possibly swapping out an earring / ring. Pretty small adjustments really, but I like to continuously tweak. And it’s nice to know what others are running.

This is the current build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhQQNAR7ansISZa2oGupB3aGJ1IM996LJHCK5XIA-TliIABkt/QPKp+6KA4n6DFqCjOKT2RpAAPEgt0NQnSwAAIA7cnpz6MwKfuwFuw1ZhAMvAA-w

What base power (wvw roamers)?

in Mesmer

Posted by: EnderzShadow.2506

EnderzShadow.2506

I think you need to do some math on attention span and its relation to ‘length of posts’.

I’m just being mean, but seriously, I didn’t even try to read that wall of math text.

and Pyro, your too kitten smart but you have a great way of explaining technical subjects.

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