Guild Wars 2

Aim: Promote shatter build diversity.

Method: Either make illusionary persona a master talent or deceptive evasion an adept talent.

Expected outcome: Shatter builds can take GM traits from other lines while reataining DE and IP. This would allow better shatter + lockdown or shatter + boon creation or shatter + sustain builds.

This would hopefully make shatter more viable in sPvP and small scale WvW. It would have no effect on lvl 80 PvE and limited effect on zerg combat. Deceptive evasion as an adept talent would make the sub 40 leveling expierence more palatable.

Thoughts?

Deceptive evasion was a minor adept talent when the game started. It got moved up because it was too good. While I personally hate the nerf, I agree with it being moved. It was just too good to be an adept trait.

For that very reason, I also have to insist that Illusionary Persona stays as a grandmaster. Not only is it good on its own but, because it treats the mesmer as an illusion, any trait that procs off of a shatter won’t need any illusions to work. That makes it highly adaptable for builds that don’t even focus on shatters for damage. It’s just too good to be placed any lower than where it is.

I thought about a change on DE before and i agree that it should become a adept tier. It should be basic, because it is a basic for shatter mesmer. Move swordtraining to master to bring it in line with other weapon traits, I haven’t seen any build going 10 in this line only to take the training and i expect this would actually change nothing but bring diversed shatterbuilds that are viable.

Another way would be to get more shatter traits that are not grand master or make some other weak traits interesting so we can have shatterhybrids with a different skillset (signets, manipulation (not just blink))

Edit: My bad, you’re right.

The only “problem” I could see here, is that bumping down IP (let alone IP and DE) would then allow for some right nasty condishatter or shatter/interrupt specs. IP with BI/ID, or IP with the new Illusions GM Trait. It’d take all of one fight where a Mesmer wins with that kinda trick, and I’d put money on it getting nerfed-via-GW2-player-whinging. We all know, ANet listens to the loudest whinger … WvW Confusion, anyone?

DE was not bumped up to master major tier because it was too good. It was bumped up because people running phantasm builds kept getting their phantasms overwritten when they dodge.

The only option would be to move it to major adept. This would be amazing.

I still think that DE has to go.

It seems too required a trait for anyone who isn’t doing Phantasms.

I’d rather see an improved base ability to spawn clones + a dodge-trait which is less strictly required.

Moving down IP to Master

Besides IP being too strong for a Master trait, this won’t promote build diversity. People will still always take IP. The only difference is that they now can add ID (CC) or MtD (Condi) ontop of it making shatter builds in general stronger.

As it is right now, Illusion will have IP (Damage), ID (CC) and MtD (Condi) as GM. You will have to make a decision what to play. It actually is a very good set up for build diversity. The real culprit is DE because it is needed for Clone generation.

Moving down DE to Adept

Again, DE is too powerful to be Adept. It will also not increase build diversity. Most shatter Mesmers will go 30/10/0/0/30. Some might go 20/10/0/10/30 for more Vigor instead of more CC power. But where is the diversity here?

If you want diversity among shatter Mesmers then ANet has to reduce the impact of mandatory traits or remove them. As Carighan said, DE would have to go. Right now, regardless of what kind of shatter Mesmer you are, you will want to go for DE. Even non shatter Mesmers benefit a lot when picking this trait. Its impact on the overall performance of Mesmers is way too high. If DE was removed all Clone skills could have their cooldowns adjusted if needed.

However, there will also be a downside to this. DE actually offers a very interesting mechanic which opens up combat tactics we would lose. I’m not sure if many Mesmers would like that.

I think DE is fine where it is. I think DE is a crutch that our community has used for far too long and was VERY happy to see it nerfed. We’re limiting ourselves. Traiting into illusions is great because it automatically gives a CD for illusion creation. You should also probs be running Double Illusions and or Decoy.

You can get as low as 6sec CDs for some (staff 2 sword 3 GS 2) illusions.

Come on Mesmers. We’re the best class with the most skilled players. Get rid of your crutches and run with the butterflies!

Carighan.6758:

I still think that DE has to go.

It seems too required a trait for anyone who isn’t doing Phantasms.

I’d rather see an improved base ability to spawn clones + a dodge-trait which is less strictly required.

Yes. I dislike the fact it’s needed, but it seems too much of a stretch for them to remove it at this stage of the game’s life.

I have tried quite a lot of builds without DE, and for lockdown or phantasm builds you can kind of get away without it. Shatter builds really need DE because clones are fragile and there’s often quite a lot of random aoe.

I wasn’t aware of the early balance changes, I guess that makes it very unlikely the sort of tinkering I suggested will be done.

Somewhat related: it seems like the adept minor was actually the correct place for illusionists celerity. I disagree that clones and DE are a crutch; rather, clone production is the the meat of nearly all mesmer builds.

I would like to see more methods of clone generation that doesn’t depend on dodge.

Something like a new master domination trait:

Whenever you interrupt a foe, summon an illusion at your location.

It would allow mesmers a way out from having to spend 20 points in dueling in order to be shatter-viable without breaking the current shatter specs or making them useless.

I have been suggesting a way to generate clones tied with mantras.
This would bring mantra more into the limelight at the same time solving the DE crutch we currently have.

yeah ip is such an important trait for mesmers. in wvw if u dont have ip, your shatters and most of the traits are quiet useless. when i think of a build im always like, aw but i cant, because i need 30 in illusions to do that..
putting these traits down a little further could def help mes build diversity..especially in wvw.

With vigor and crit dmg nerf, removing or nerfing DE would be the idea of the century !
If you think DE is a crutch, don’t use it. But removing it… lol. Seriously?

I believe the idea is to give mesmers something innate to compensate for the loss of DE. Depending on what it was this something I could would support.

Nausicca.6038:

With vigor and crit dmg nerf, removing or nerfing DE would be the idea of the century !
If you think DE is a crutch, don’t use it. But removing it… lol. Seriously?

Why do you assume though that it’d be a nerf?
No one is talking about nerfing Mesmers, I think? It’s about removing or trivializing DE, because in its current incarnation it’s Bad Design.

I can’t call Deceptive Evasion bad design because it opens up a mindgame possibility that I absolutely love. When I dodge, I do so to avoid something that is likely to kill the clone I leave behind which, in turn, will trigger all of my on-death traits. The only time I dodge just to generate a clone is when I’m using a staff with high precision, condition damage and Sharper Images. I don’t see how either of these are bad game design.

People make the mistake of thinking they “need” these traits, but you only need them if you have a shatter heavy build. Even then, I’ve run a shatter build without DE with pretty good success.

actually if u wanna be successful at shattering in wvw raids, u will need ip as none of your illusions will make it even close to the zerg. this limits my build diversity greatly. i would love to have ip, but i cant as i need other traits for survival in wvw zergplay…

I had this talk with Pyro the other day and I agree with Carighan completely. DE is too valuable in any build but at the same time, It kinda makes you have the feeling of being “forced” into getting it.

It is also the same with Blink and Decoy.

Try running with a build without DE or the two latter, or all 3 of them.

I wouldn’t see you fair so well against “skilled” players.

skilled= maybe try fighting someone without blink and decoy anyone of the popular players in OMFG. or just use decoy without DE. (PUs are excluded of course)

I am saying this because, instead of having the freedom of putting anything into the traits or Utility Slots, you are quite have the feeling of “you have to slot it in”.

Raunchy.6891:

People make the mistake of thinking they “need” these traits, but you only need them if you have a shatter heavy build. Even then, I’ve run a shatter build without DE with pretty good success.

Not entirely true. Having clones out is important for all mesmer trait/features that increase in power per illusion (ether fest being a major one). A single solo melee guardian can outkill your clone production without DE no trouble. Then, of course, there’s the added conditions on clone death, the rate of application and stacks of which would be dramatically effected. Shatters isnt the half of it.

StickerHappy.8052:

I had this talk with Pyro the other day and I agree with Carighan completely. DE is too valuable in any build but at the same time, It kinda makes you have the feeling of being “forced” into getting it.

It is also the same with Blink and Decoy.

Try running with a build without DE or the two latter, or all 3 of them.

I wouldn’t see you fair so well against “skilled” players.

skilled= maybe try fighting someone without blink and decoy anyone of the popular players in OMFG. or just use decoy without DE. (PUs are excluded of course)

I am saying this because, instead of having the freedom of putting anything into the traits or Utility Slots, you are quite have the feeling of “you have to slot it in”.

The ONLY thing I swap decoy out for is Mimic (4s blocking/reflects in placed of 3s/4s stealth), and I’ll be using torch for that stealth/target break. I also wouldn’t do this while roaming. Decoy all the way.

^Exactly.

I would really hope DE to be part of the Mesmer Mechanic or even reincarnated on a different form. If nothing was tied to clones except of the sharper images trait then it would be okay.

But in reality every build utilizes clones, Even not running a shatter build, having DE produces the on-demand shatters for interrupts and invuln too.

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

I had this talk with Pyro the other day and I agree with Carighan completely. DE is too valuable in any build but at the same time, It kinda makes you have the feeling of being “forced” into getting it.

It is also the same with Blink and Decoy.

Try running with a build without DE or the two latter, or all 3 of them.

I wouldn’t see you fair so well against “skilled” players.

skilled= maybe try fighting someone without blink and decoy anyone of the popular players in OMFG. or just use decoy without DE. (PUs are excluded of course)

I am saying this because, instead of having the freedom of putting anything into the traits or Utility Slots, you are quite have the feeling of “you have to slot it in”.

The ONLY thing I swap decoy out for is Mimic, and I’ll be using torch for that stealth/target break. I also wouldn’t do this while roaming.

Have you ever tried dueling or just going against somebody without those utils or DE?

Carighan.6758:

Nausicca.6038:

With vigor and crit dmg nerf, removing or nerfing DE would be the idea of the century !
If you think DE is a crutch, don’t use it. But removing it… lol. Seriously?

Why do you assume though that it’d be a nerf?
No one is talking about nerfing Mesmers, I think? It’s about removing or trivializing DE, because in its current incarnation it’s Bad Design.

I think it works pretty well for a “bad design”. Removing or adding an ICD ( seen this on balance sub forum) or whatever you want to do to DE would be a nerf.
Sorry if I don’t have the “elitist attitude” requiered to be a mesmer. I just don’t understand the “nerf everything good in mesmer” attitude that seems to be common nowadays in our forums. PU, now DE. What’s next? IP ?

Mesmers are already uncommon in wvw, and from what I’ve read, almost inexistant in competitive pvp. Why wanting to make us even weaker is beyond me…

Nausicca.6038:

Carighan.6758:

Nausicca.6038:

With vigor and crit dmg nerf, removing or nerfing DE would be the idea of the century !
If you think DE is a crutch, don’t use it. But removing it… lol. Seriously?

Why do you assume though that it’d be a nerf?
No one is talking about nerfing Mesmers, I think? It’s about removing or trivializing DE, because in its current incarnation it’s Bad Design.

I think it works pretty well for a “bad design”. Removing or adding an ICD ( seen this on balance sub forum) or whatever you want to do to DE would be a nerf.
Sorry if I don’t have the “elitist attitude” requiered to be a mesmer. I just don’t understand the “nerf everything good in mesmer” attitude that seems to be common nowadays in our forums. PU, now DE. What’s next? IP ?

Mesmers are already uncommon in wvw, and from what I’ve read, almost inexistant in competitive pvp. Why wanting to make us even weaker is beyond me…

No one’s asking for a nerf. Rather, a lot of mesmer players are just noting a lack of build variety, which is highlighted by the fact that 20 in dueling for DE is basically required in almost all PvP builds, whereas 20 in dueling and 30 in illusions are required for all shatter builds. That blink and decoy almost never leave my bar except when I’m running with a zerg (decoy generally being replaced with mantra of concentration) just adds to the problem.

So many builds rely on constant, on demand clone generation, and our options for this are more limited than it seems, especially if facing away from a target. Thus DE being near mandatory.

We in the same boat as thiefs and their mug trait, except mug is a adept trait so it doesn’t limit their build diversity. If mug can be a adept trait then i don’t see why DE can’t be.

I expect the concern is an adept DE would make PU or clone death builds even stronger.

A shatterlock 30/10/0/0/30 build would be rather nice and may get some QQ but the skill cap is way higher than PU so I expect the actual impact would be limited.

As many other have said, DE should just be removed and replaced with other clone generation mechanism’s or cd reductions on current clone skills. Any new traits for clone generation should be in illusions.

IP is arguable the best trait in the game for mesmers, moving it down would be totally OP imo.

Could you please name an OP build enabled by either lower DE or IP?

PS I agree DE should not exist.

MSFone.3026:

As many other have said, DE should just be removed and replaced with other clone generation mechanism’s or cd reductions on current clone skills. Any new traits for clone generation should be in illusions.

IP is arguable the best trait in the game for mesmers, moving it down would be totally OP imo.

The only thing with removing it entirely is, what would you replace it with that’s intuitive and wouldn’t cause potential problems? Reductions on our current clone skills would be too powerful, so to me the best solution would be moving it down so it opens up more builds. It might make a couple builds a bit too powerful, but you can adjust that as it happens I guess.

Neurophen.9738:

Could you please name an OP build enabled by either lower DE or IP?

PU builds would be tankier than ever because you could invest 10 into Inspiration and get Mender’s Purity to deal with condition classes a lot better. IP is too good of a trait to get moved down. It would just make every build that uses a shatter have a big increase in damage, without investing that much for it. That just doesn’t seem balanced to me imo.

The way I see illusions for shatter is as a resource (that makes me cringe having the opinion it’s more expensive than thieves initiative)… I wouldn’t remove DE unless it was built into the class.

That being said what if instead of bumping the tier why not change the location of DE to master in the illusions tree where you have to go 30 into it anyways? And tbh DE fits in a tree called “illusions” 40 trait points to spend where you please tho personally I’d still be going 20 into domination xD

But does open up the walls for diversity… Could even grab the illusive 30 traits in inspiration, maybe even justify their location? A “proper” support shatter!!! It can be real!

IP should not be moved.

The underlying concept of grandmaster traits was supposed to be that they are build defining traits. As it happens, very few traits actually fit this description, but IP is one of the few that does. Taking IP defines your build. That is why it is a grandmaster.

Power lock, confounding suggestions, PU, even shattered conditions and restorative illusions are all great grandmasters in theory because they are build defining. As it turns out, those last two only define horrible builds, but it’s the concept that counts for this discussion.

Weaker grandmasters are things like the dueling traits. No build is defined by a boring % boost or a random quickness proc.

So, IP is fine where it is. It fits the concept of the line that it’s in, it fits the concept of a grandmaster trait.

@ Ruanchy: I understand what you’re saying. What about a trait that made clone generating skills have a chance to generate 2 clones instead of 1? Or maybe auto attacks have a chance to spawn a clone. Maybe ppl won’t like the random nature of those. Maybe criticals spawn a clone with some icd. Maybe every third auto attack spawns a clone with an icd. Those are just off the top of my head and aren’t totally beyond reason.

I get that it’s lame to ask for a skills removal without concrete suggestions for replacement. However I think that the community can figure out good alternatives, and that it is possible for DE to be replaced with something that is an improvement for the class overall.

The problem with DE is that ANY build benefits from increased clone generation, and DE is automatic, constant clone generation. Much like heal sig is automatic, constant healing for a warrior. No skill or trait can pump out as many clones as consistently without any real input needed from the player, and because of that it becomes a must-have for almost everyone.

So how bout this. Since Majors are build defining traits.. why not put DE as a minor?

StickerHappy.8052:

So how bout this. Since Majors are build defining traits.. why not put DE as a minor?

How would that solve the issue of DE being too mandatory for Mesmers? You would still have to get it. It will also cause problems for Phantasm builds depending on where you put it (5 or 15 Duelling). Or it would cause problems for Shatter Mesmers because of the increased trait investment (25 Duelling).

Hmm didnt think of it that way. So i think mesmer has to have something in regards of deception or clones that is on the class mechanic, like shatters.

Its really a lot of time i think that DE is way too much needed for 80% of mesmer builds.
There shouldnt be any trait so indispensable. Imo the trait should be deleted and mesmer mechanics should be reworked so to not need that trait.

Still have to figure out a decent way to do that, but i think mesmers really need it to open up some more build diversity.

Since I was extremly bored I did some math to provide numbers for the discussion. While it probably is impossible to calculate the real value of DE in numbers we can at least look at the benefit it provides as a form of resource generation (Illusions). I picked two weapon sets with either the highest (Sc+Sw/GS) or the lowest (Sw+T/Staff) Illusion generation. I looked at how many Illusions those builds can create per minute with and without IC. I didn’t take into account: skill delays or cast times, mechanics of weapon skills, weapon swap, weapon traits or efficiency of certain trait combinations. I also didn’t account for the Scepter AA or utilities. I then calculated the percental increase in Illusion generation when adding DE in two scenarios.

No guarantee for accuracy.

Illusion generation per minute
The numbers when taking IC are in brackets.

Maximum generation weapon combination
Sc2: 6 (7.5)
Sw4: 4 (5)
Sw5: 3 (3.75)
GS2: 7.5 (9.23)
GS4: 3 (3.75)
Total: 23.5 (29.23)

Increase in Illusion generation when adding DE (without Vigor)

(23.5+6)/23.5 = +25% (20%). DE accounts for 20.3% (17%) of the Illusion generation.

Increase in Illusion generation when adding DE (perma Vigor)

(23.5+12)/23.5 = +50% (41%)

Increase in Illusion generation from IC when -not- using DE.

29.23/23.5 = +24.4%.

IC would account for 19.6% of the Illusion generation.

Illusion generation per minute
The numbers when taking IC are in brackets.

Minimum generation weapon combination

Sw3: 5 (6.3)
T5: 2 (2.5)
St2: 6 (7.5)
St3: 3.3 (4.14)
Total: 17.3 (20.44)

Increase in Illusion generation when adding DE (without Vigor)

(17.3+6)/17.3 = +35% (29.4%)

Increase in Illusion generation when adding DE (perma Vigor)

(17.3+12)/17.3 = +70% (58.7%). DE accounts for 41% (37%) of the Illusion generation.

Increase in Illusion generation from IC when -not- using DE.

20.44/17.3 = +18.2%

IC would account for 10.7% of the Illusion generation with perma Vigor and DE.

What to take from this?

• DE is superior to IC in almost every scenario when it comes to Illusion generation
• DE is almost two to three times more efficient than IC in certain scenarios
• DE can account for 17% to 41% of the total Illusion generation
• IC can account for 10.7% to 19.6% of the total Illusion generation.
• DE also provides tactical advantages which are not considered here

[Edit]: More numbers.
[Edit2]: Graphs. Because I can. (Might help visualizing the effects/relations)

phantasmal haste replaces deceptive evasion

deceptive evasion replaces phantasmal haste

means 20 illusion for DE

20 dueling for phantasmal haste

problem solved :p

and i think PH fits better in dueling while DE fits better in illusions in my opinion

Wyrden.4713:

…

Potential issues:

• Insane buff for shatter Mesmers
• Screws with almost any other non-Phantasm builds
• PH would compete with Phantasmal Fury and the weapon traits

Xaylin.1860:

….

• DE also provides tactical advantages which are not considered here

Excellent analysis Xaylin. I just wanted to build a bit on your last point. DE provides so much utility in addition to clone production that is unmatched by any weapon set. For example, it lets you

• drop a clone behind you when running away
• drop a clone when you don’t have an enemy targeted but are in combat
• drop a clone when facing away from enemy or greater than 600 distance
• dodge into an enemy and shatter without waiting for weapon skill
• produce a clone in stealth
• produce enough clones for an f3 —> full f1 shatter
• produce clones at all in zergs (more or less, esp. with appropriate sigils)

And so forth. In short, it is so crucial to almost any non-phantasm build, and it is quite useful in many phantasm builds as well (summon two phantasms and then use clone deaths for control).

And this is why it needs to be changed, because there should be no near-mandatory traits, especially at the master level.

Any chance we can get a dev’s perspective/input on this? Are they happy with mesmers sinking 20 points into a virtually priceless trait?

Well DE is getting nerfed both directly and indirectly next patch, though the direct nerf is only to heavy clone-death builds… I’m not sure I even want them to fiddle anymore with it, I don’t think they realize that too much could potentially break every mesmer build.

Pyroathiest.4168:

IP should not be moved.

The underlying concept of grandmaster traits was supposed to be that they are build defining traits. As it happens, very few traits actually fit this description, but IP is one of the few that does. Taking IP defines your build. That is why it is a grandmaster.

Power lock, confounding suggestions, PU, even shattered conditions and restorative illusions are all great grandmasters in theory because they are build defining. As it turns out, those last two only define horrible builds, but it’s the concept that counts for this discussion.

Weaker grandmasters are things like the dueling traits. No build is defined by a boring % boost or a random quickness proc.

So, IP is fine where it is. It fits the concept of the line that it’s in, it fits the concept of a grandmaster trait.

well i see your points, but in a zerg situation our shatters are only useful if we got ip with it. in wvw a mesmers problems are that our illusions dont last at all. if u wanna shatter u are lucky if the shatter works which makes a lot of our traits useless in wvw without ip, same with illusion traits and all that. so yeah it does limit our build diversity in wvw greatly. in spvp however , u are right ip is at the right spot. now if shatters were made more viable, so our illusions actually reach a atarget a little more often, ip would not be required in wvw….

I’ve skipped to the bottom so I’m not late for work so sorry if some one has already said this…

What if Deceptive Evasion was in “Illusions”? In my mind it is an illusionary skill and therefore belongs in that trait line. Thoughts?

calavel.6249:

Well DE is getting nerfed both directly and indirectly next patch, though the direct nerf is only to heavy clone-death builds… I’m not sure I even want them to fiddle anymore with it, I don’t think they realize that too much could potentially break every mesmer build.

The DE ‘nerf’ was canceled and there hasn’t been any news since then.

saxmachine.6024:

I’ve skipped to the bottom so I’m not late for work so sorry if some one has already said this…

What if Deceptive Evasion was in “Illusions”? In my mind it is an illusionary skill and therefore belongs in that trait line. Thoughts?

It was suggested earlier. I personally think it would mess with too many existing non-shatter builds and it would also be an insane boost to solely shatter Mesmers. I don’t like the idea. But people might disagree with me.

So, since DE is a trait that can be usefull in 95% of mesmer builds, and those 5% remaining builds could still deal with it. Why not put a nerfed version of DE as a part of class mechanic ? For example with an ICD of 5 or 10s ?
This way we will have a slightly less good tool, but it will open up many other different builds that doesnt require 20 points in dueling but still needs a good clone generation.

I’m mainly thinking about support builds using shattered conditions, but a support build doesnt need crit chance and crit dmg, yet, if u want to effectively use SC u need DE for sure.
This way mesmers might have other viable options other then zerk or rabid.

cuge.5398:

So, since DE is a trait that can be usefull in 95% of mesmer builds, and those 5% remaining builds could still deal with it. Why not put a nerfed version of DE as a part of class mechanic ? For example with an ICD of 5 or 10s ?

That is the solution I personally would prefer and also suggested in the balance forum. However, besides the impact on class balance due to changing a whole mechanic, the biggest issue might be the actual (programming) effort it takes to change the class mechanic (see Ranger pet issues). Therefore, the more important question probably is if ANet shares our concerns regarding the impact of DE on the overall performance of Mesmers and is willing to commit themselves to such a drastic change.