Guild Wars 2

There seem to be lots of crying for nerfs for mesmers, but what is it that makes mesmers too strong? Is it a certain weapon combo, and if so is it greatsword/sword pistol or staff/sword pistol? We dont see many spvp mesmers having any other weapon combos than that, and I guess we see more greatswords than staffs. Or is it the moa bird? Or something else? What is the main issue?

Where ? After reading this post i looked through the first 2 pages of this forum and found nothing about mesmers being OP . What are you talking about ?

Many people call a class OP when they don’t know how to counter it and for Mesmers they are a hard class to counter. Put a daze/snare on a Mesmer and they’re pretty much screwed unless they have a few clones/phantasms out to daze back.

Check in spvp forum, there are posts everywhere about mesmers being superstrongest ever… I just wonder what is the problem really?

:/ i wish my mesmer was really super OP

Just a bunch of badies, thinking they’re actually good but aren’t, whining because they have no clue what they’re actually doing.

Moa bird is stupid, but a lot of us don’t use it anyway.

Mesmers also have a harder time in PVE and because of this we often have a better experience with how to stay alive. We don’t outdamage our opponents, we outlast them most of the time.

I’ve been playing a Mesmer in tPvP for a bit now after making the switch from the Necromancer, let me tell you why they’re a notch above most classes.

The underlining thing is, there is no true counter to a good Mesmer. 100b Warriors aren’t much of a threat once you know their combo, if you can survive the Thief’s initial burst, he’s going to melt under conditions/pressure easily. All of Elementalist’s big moves are easy to dodge and move out of. Mesmers? Not so much.

If you’re a Phantasm build, they need to get those down ASAP or your phantasms will kill them. If they’re spending time LoSing your iDuelist or popping him, they’re not hitting you giving the Mesmer a lead.

If you’re a condition clone spamming build, it’s extremely easy to have a huge uptime on clones and ergo bleeds(Dodge clone has no ICD), builds that pick up Debilitating Dissipation don’t mind their clones getting popped as that will hinder them too. Staff Auto-attack is your rotation and gives you Might/Fury while throwing Burns far better than an Engineer or Guardian (33% on crits or 1/5 Hits with Justice).

Even if they don’t go for your clones and illusions, you kite better than any scholar for the matter. The only class that has you beat in mobility is the thief. It’s also impossible to fully lock down a Mesmer. You pack the most stun breaks under a minute cool down. Blink is the lowest cd ground target teleport in the game. Even IF your stun breaks are on CD, just Phase retreat away from that bulls charge. If it connected, you’d still be on the ground but the warrior is now flaying his Hundred Blades in the air. With good timing, Sword distortion and shatter distortion can reflect nasty things while leaving you scott free. And yes, you can still shatter even stun/kd’d.

This is all not even considering the instant AoE boon/condition strip that is Null Field. The usefulness of Arcane Thievery, or the presence Portal can give you. Aside from Kyhlo, it’s also a useful way to get pressure on Keep lord’s door while still being able to flash back to defend the node closest to said keep.

You’re packing the only ranged AoE pull that has no limit (Temportal Curtain) and iWarden is a gem not everyone is abusing just yet. Moa Morph is the best lock out in the game while Time Warp is the best and only AoE Quickness in the game.

Lastly, their downed state along with Thief’s have the most potential to delay and self bandage. The amount of time you can waste the opposing team with your downed state is a lot higher relative to other professions.

Mesmers cannot be truly countered like any other class, they also pack the best iterations of the utilities out there in the lowest cool downs. That is why they’re pretty much the best class right now in PvP.

Posts in the sPvP forum <— that statement alone explains it.

PvP tends to have people who will run straight to the forums to complain OPness when they get their behind handed to them by anyone – if you searched you would probably find them calling any class OP (quite often with a long winded and entirely inaccurate description of abilities that don’t exist as to why said class is OP)

quick browse of the sPvP forum it’s all guardian this, guardian that, guardian op etc – looks like they are the anti-flavour of the week

This prompted me to read the sPvP forums. There’s some pretty funny stuff in there all right.

Moa’s OP 1v1. Time Warp’s OP for group fights. Portal’s OP for Treb repairs in sPvP. Portal’s OP for WvW everything. Curtain’s OP for WvW. iBerserker’s OP for WvW. Clone x Stealth is OP for everything. Troll downed state OP. Phantasm damage is OP for PvP. Bleed damage OP. Infinite Clone Works OP. Bonus invulns with BF and Distortion are OP. Blink is OP. Infinite regen + prot + Phantasm damage is OP. Feedback is OP.

Mesmer OP. Represent.

Dancing Mad.

Lumines.3916:

I’ve been playing a Mesmer in tPvP for a bit now after making the switch from the Necromancer, let me tell you why they’re a notch above most classes.

The underlining thing is, there is no true counter to a good Mesmer. 100b Warriors aren’t much of a threat once you know their combo, if you can survive the Thief’s initial burst, he’s going to melt under conditions/pressure easily. All of Elementalist’s big moves are easy to dodge and move out of. Mesmers? Not so much.

A good gaurdian, heavy boon, defense specced will outlast a mesmer.
A haste spamming thief who knows what he’s doing will burst down a mesmer
Ctrl+T and you can keep a mesmer in sight for the entire fight
A dodge rolling mesmer is a clear give-away.

If you’re a Phantasm build, they need to get those down ASAP or your phantasms will kill them. If they’re spending time LoSing your iDuelist or popping him, they’re not hitting you giving the Mesmer a lead.

Or if they are not using any type of AoE’s to make phantams’s and clones pop like ballons

If you’re a condition clone spamming build, it’s extremely easy to have a huge uptime on clones and ergo bleeds(Dodge clone has no ICD), builds that pick up Debilitating Dissipation don’t mind their clones getting popped as that will hinder them too. Staff Auto-attack is your rotation and gives you Might/Fury while throwing Burns far better than an Engineer or Guardian (33% on crits or 1/5 Hits with Justice).

Easy yes, but that doesnt make you less obvious for targeting because you will be dodge rolling left and right to keep that large uptime of clones, secondly high vit, heavy boon characters like guardians, or condition immune necro’s, or heavy boon, condition immune engineers will be a stalemate for condition heavy mesmers.

Even if they don’t go for your clones and illusions, you kite better than any scholar for the matter. The only class that has you beat in mobility is the thief. It’s also impossible to fully lock down a Mesmer. You pack the most stun breaks under a minute cool down. Blink is the lowest cd ground target teleport in the game. Even IF your stun breaks are on CD, just Phase retreat away from that bulls charge. If it connected, you’d still be on the ground but the warrior is now flaying his Hundred Blades in the air. With good timing, Sword distortion and shatter distortion can reflect nasty things while leaving you scott free. And yes, you can still shatter even stun/kd’d.

Actually I dont think its possible to lock down anything 1 v 1 unless you build specifically for it, but like everything else your giving something up.
I do agree with mesmers being hard to lock down, but for a class that has no burst combo’s outside of phantasm’s I see this as a none issue. Like you stated earlier, its their uptime that is what makes mesmers hated, because we have ways to avoid death.

This is all not even considering the instant AoE boon/condition strip that is Null Field. The usefulness of Arcane Thievery, or the presence Portal can give you. Aside from Kyhlo, it’s also a useful way to get pressure on Keep lord’s door while still being able to flash back to defend the node closest to said keep.

Null field AFAIK isnt instant boon stripping. Arcane thievery is great in 1 v 1’s against something that stacks conditions very slowly, not that great vs a condition spec necro that sneezes conditions.

You’re packing the only ranged AoE pull that has no limit (Temportal Curtain) and iWarden is a gem not everyone is abusing just yet. Moa Morph is the best lock out in the game while Time Warp is the best and only AoE Quickness in the game.

I wil give you the aoe pull, because I have not used the focus outside of the speed buff, Warden is crap unless your fighting a zerg group that sits on top of eachother, or unless you specced specifically for the focus. ( which imho pistol or sword are better as off-hands)
Moa Morph has been a subject of QQ since the first BW, I honestly do hope they nerf the duration and CD, because I think its way to strong of a CC.
Time Warp I have mixed feelings about, for the CD it has I would justify its effect, especially since other classes can get this effect once every 15-60 seconds

Lastly, their downed state along with Thief’s have the most potential to delay and self bandage. The amount of time you can waste the opposing team with your downed state is a lot higher relative to other professions.

This really isnt an issue unless your trying to down a mesmer in an already losing team battle.
The mesmer is the SECOND one to appear, not the first. I thought people realized this

Moa morph, time warp and confusion.
I don’t know of any way to stack confusion, except underwater and downed.

A good gaurdian, heavy boon, defense specced will outlast a mesmer.

This is not true. My 1v1 condition shatter build can take out a bunker guardian. Too much boon stripping, too many clones, too much stealth. And it’s not a spec “built” to kill guardians — it’s just a 1v1 spec. And hell, I can’t even play the spec properly yet.

A haste spamming thief who knows what he’s doing will burst down a mesmer

Never. Blink almost completely negates Thief haste openers, nevermind Distortion. It’s still a high risk of course, but haste Thieves always are.

Ctrl+T and you can keep a mesmer in sight for the entire fight

Basically, this is 100% incorrect.

A dodge rolling mesmer is a clear give-away.

Mesmer should time dodges and non-dodge events. E.g. no need to dodge until the opponent can already identify the real Mesmer. This is an l2p issue.

high vit, heavy boon characters like guardians, or condition immune necro’s, or heavy boon, condition immune engineers will be a stalemate for condition heavy mesmers.

Only for Sharper Image stackers. Confusion is highly spammable and relatively short duration. Also, Mesmers are not exclusive condition -OR- power.

I do agree with mesmers being hard to lock down, but for a class that has no burst combo’s outside of phantasm’s I see this as a none issue.

Mesmers have sufficient burst if you spec for it — and phantasm specs are NOT it.

Sidenote: Into the Void only pulls 5 IIRC. It is the pull that has the longest reach, although it does not pull the furthest distance.

This is not true. My 1v1 condition shatter build can take out a bunker guardian. Too much boon stripping, too many clones, too much stealth. And it’s not a spec “built” to kill guardians — it’s just a 1v1 spec. And hell, I can’t even play the spec properly yet.

You will have to post me your build, in every Tpvp scenerio I have been in, its always a stalemate, and by the time Im in a position where its going good for me to kill the guardian his teammate shows up.

Never. Blink almost completely negates Thief haste openers, nevermind Distortion. It’s still a high risk of course, but haste Thieves always are.

Haste openers?
Maybe the thieves I fight are oddballs, because I havent fought one that opened with haste, but usually popped it mid fight for the kill.
( of course you have the ones that get lucky and get haste right off from the start with that trait, then its a hit and miss kinda :I)

Mesmer should time dodges and non-dodge events. E.g. no need to dodge until the opponent can already identify the real Mesmer. This is an l2p issue.

I agree but the way I interpreted what lumines wrote was that the mesmer had infinite clone generation and no down time, while this can be true it would mean the mesmer is spamming dodge, which is never a viable way to play in any pvp.

Only for Sharper Image stackers. Confusion is highly spammable and relatively short duration. Also, Mesmers are not exclusive condition -OR- power.

The mesmers I have run into are usually condit/crit, because of the ease of stacking bleeds from sharper images ( its literally a fire and forget ) or power/crit/critdam.
I have seen the occasional tanky mesmers but I have always been able to shatter burst them down

Mesmers have sufficient burst if you spec for it — and phantasm specs are NOT it.

I halfway disagree with you here.
A phantasm being able to hit for 2-3k before a shatter to me is much more useful than a phantasm hitting for 1-2k before a shatter, going as a glass cannon and speccing for both high crit/critdamage and power and grabbing the trait empowered illusions, to me seems like a better gain than to not spec for anything phantasm wise, especially when phantasms recharge just as fast as your shatters.

.

Untouch.2541:

Moa morph, time warp and confusion.
I don’t know of any way to stack confusion, except underwater and downed.

For confusion stacking we have-
Illusionary Retribution, Cry of Frustration, Scepter, Chaos Armor, Blinding Beffudlement, and Confusing Enchantments.

P.S. and the Illusionary Mage

i dont get it, i feel like mesmer dmg is the lowest how can they be OP. if you destroy mesmer illusions they basically have crap for dmg.

It wasn’t my meaning to say you should spend dodges just for clones, it’s to show that Mesmers have an easy time dropping clones. Between Phase Retreat (5s when traited), Clone on Dodge, Mirror Image if you’re bringing it, it’s extremely easy to flood the screen of clones. However I usually go for 2 clones + 1 phantasm.

Sharper Images is possibly the best Bleed on Crit trait among all classes!

The exaggerations are crazy to say the least. At least we know the Mesmer class pisses people off in PvP, which is to be expected.

EasymodeX.4062:

This is not true. My 1v1 condition shatter build can take out a bunker guardian. Too much boon stripping, too many clones, too much stealth. And it’s not a spec “built” to kill guardians — it’s just a 1v1 spec. And hell, I can’t even play the spec properly yet.

I find that quote amusing to the least as well. "Oh my build that just happens to be fully equipped at dealing with a typical bunker Guardian build… well it was just a 1v1 spec it wasn’t intended on dealing with a Guardian. But it can kill one, and that means it’s OP. " Of course boon stripping and condition damage is going to work against a build that is vulnerable to it.

EasymodeX, a lot of what you say is actually in my opinion valid. The way you put it though, it makes you very easy to dismiss as someone who pretends to play a Mesmer and iskitten off at losing to them.

The Mesmer has issues that need to be dealt with, yes. However when you basically claim the entire thing is broken and everything needs to be nerfed, it doesn’t get anyone anywhere.

Lumines.3916:

Sharper Images is possibly the best Bleed on Crit trait among all classes!

I’d agree with that, if condition duration ever applied to it.

People call OP when they can’t handle it. In a 1v1 situation, a Mesmer with the right build (a.k.a. staff) will almost always win and this because they are very versatile. The fact is most of us (forum users) play public games where you can be stomped.

Now in a competitive situation when you play against an organized team, you can’t really call Mesmers OP as they are in public games. You don’t even play the same spells.

I think Lumines.3916 said it all. Every word was true.

You have many ways to play a Mesmer, just today I changed my spec in PvE for Mantra Restoration that gives my team 2500hp every few secs while my phantasms do the job.
But concerning sPvP, after playing lot of games, I think there is no subtitute to a staff. Just chain your chaos armors with Blinding Befuddlement (Illusions IX) and either or even both Duelling 25 or Chaos V which will GREATLY enhance graphical effects when your illus get destroyed and all of a sudden you will not die no more, giving you time to do lot of things.
Well I can’t develop here too much, and that would take a whole night and a good Mesmer is a lot of meta.

The Mesmer has issues that need to be dealt with, yes. However when you basically claim the entire thing is broken and everything needs to be nerfed, it doesn’t get anyone anywhere.

Checks thread title. Checks the first post I added.

Oh yeah, humor’s a lost art.

To be completely honest, I’m more concerned about Mesmers getting nerfed by ANet than any buffs or absurd redesigns people are suggesting on this forum.

Cry of frustration is on a long CD, it lasts for a fairly short time.

iMage is terrible.

No point in making your case in the “mesmer” forum. Mostly everyone here will disagree with you because they don’t want their OP class getting nerfed. You’re better off posting in the SPVP section to see the real consensus of what the community is thinking.

Has anyone noticed a trend going on? The first few weeks everyone has been kittening about GS Warriors being OP. Then Guardians. Then Heartseeking Thieves. Then Cooldown/Backstab Thieves. Now Mesmers. I can’t wait for the wave of criers that claim Engineer’s Juggernaut is overpowered, or better yet, supply drop. Bad players will be bad I suppose. I can’t wait for the 25th. No, I’m not going to touch the abomination, I just can’t wait for a decent sized chunk of the GW2 populace to mass exodus. (Provided they can pay for the thing with their allowance.) It’ll be a great day when /map isn’t loaded with trolls and whiners.

P.S. I’ve reached the point where I just type out kitten… and I’m okay with it.

What makes a mesmer Op?
Everything.

Bloodtau.4672:

What makes a mesmer Op?
Idiots.

Fixed!

Mesmer has a generally solid set of builds which excel at 1v1 while dropping off in 2v2/3v3 and up. In HJ you are basically always 1v1 even in larger scale battles and people are to stupid to know how to fight the mesmer. I’ve had fight’s where ppl spent 100% of the time killing my illusions which spawn on dodge meaning I killed them and took 0 damage……

Mesmer has pretty much every other class’ tools, only better. Thus, OP.

I play a Mesmer and I feel OP in PvP, and there really is only one big reason for this.

I use greatsword/sword+sword, 30 trait points in power tree, 30 points in precision tree, and 10 in toughness. This allows for some ridiculous burst…my phantasmal berserker (which often can be summoned through obstructive barriers) by itself can often take somebody down to less than 50% health. I use divinity rune in armor and berserker pendant. I have 50%+ crit and almost 70% crit damage. So why is it OP?

Because even though I’m a pure glass cannon build, my survivability is still higher most other classes, even when their gear and traits are set up in a way that gives them maximum survivability.

And don’t get me started on Moa. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been guarding a point when a skilled opponent comes a long and gets me down to a few HP, completely outplaying me in everyway, only to be turned into a Moa at the last second and get killed in 3 hits.

^^^^^^^ Nice to see honest mesmer players

my rangers barrage does over 14k damage in an aoe if people are too dumb to move out it.

don’t worry. rangers will be called op next. especially if they ever allow melee pets to hit a moving target

Stop feeding everyone this notion that Mesmers suck at team fights or any engagement larger than 1v1, seriously where is that coming from? I find mine invaluable in team fights .

I know for a fact our elites can change the tide easily. Moa can turn a 3v3 into a 3v2, and AoE quickness is in a league of its own. You’re one of the classes that can routinely do a mass cleanse for your team, a lot of AoE cleanses on other professions simply do not match up to Null Field.

But but, my illusions can only target one guy! I usually summon two clones on the kill target (so bleeds go on him) while getting a Duelist out on another. This is an easy way to keep pressure on multiple targets. With the extra bouncing trait, your Winds of Chaos is also making its rounds especially in clusterkitten like Foefire mid.

OMFG I get instantly gibbed in teamfights because Mesmers are squishy! This happens to everyone if the opposing team focus fires, it’s not an inherent Mesmer issue. Mesmers however, still pack the most escapes. I get that people can Ctrl + T you, it’s obvious when you see them ignore your clones and come right at you. It just means you work harder, because you kite better thankittenwell most classes. Plus if you’re in a team setting, you can still count on your buddies for peels. Work together as a team if its a team fight..

Lets get some stuff straight here.

Incredibly bad players are qqing because they can’t kill mesmers due to their lack of understanding of how the class works and lack of understanding of how their own class works. So now, they’ve hit the forums hoping anet takes notice of the qq and makes drastic changes which could potentially screw over the class entirely. No thanks.

If Moa morph is still landing on you then its time to uninstall the game. If you still can’t tell the difference between the mesmer and his/her clones/phantasms right away then you need to L2p. If your still losing to a mesmer period on all classes then you really need to L2p. Its been what? 1 month+ now? Seriously L2p.

I’m surprised people aren’t qqing about time warp, the far superior skill which allows a mesmer and his/her group to dominate. Oh, what’s that? Moa morph landed on you again?! Well then, off to the control panel for you and right to the uninstall button because you clearly can’t handle fast paced pvp and have the reaction time equivalent to the speed of a snail.

It really is absurd how people are throwing things left and right about mesmer. You’d think sin would be qqed about more.

Cheyenne.1085:

Because even though I’m a pure glass cannon build, my survivability is still higher most other classes, even when their gear and traits are set up in a way that gives them maximum survivability.

That’s not survivability you’re talking about. Its mobility and no, its not better than “most” classes. You also do not have “maximum survivability” on a glass cannon build. Try taking a few hits and see what happens.

Most of the complaints definitely come from not understanding what the mesmer is doing. Its a hard class to play, its odd in its mechanics, and so people who have never played one don’t really know what the mesmer is up to. I don’t do tons of DPS, the best thing I have going for me is the clones. But when someone comes after me who is smart about avoiding clones its always a tough fight.

I usually destory the other mesmers I meet, I know what they can do. I dont chase their clones, I know when they get low on health they more than likely will stealth and run and hide. So I go where I would go if I were close to dead. They are most likely there. And easy to kill. In any case, the only class right now I don’t really fear too much are necros…but I think I have not come across a well played one. Also Guardians, they are usually defensive built so they don’t worry me too much.

The worst are warriors, and rangers, if they are really offensive speced. If they are stupid and kill my clones, they are not really a bother. I don’t feel terribly overpowered I feel like mesmers are terribly not understood. Once mesmers tricks become old hat, things will change pretty quickly. Right now mesmers are a good noob killer.

They are certainly stronger vs player who doesnt know how Mesmer mechanics works, yet they are still very powerful vs experienced players.
They are immortal and invicible? nobody said that, ofcourse you can kill em. but is the hardest class you can face in 1v1.

I’d argue that if you see a lone enemy (independent of class) in sPvP, and then you move in – alone – to engage (again, independent of class), then you’re making a tactical mistake already.
You are fighting a “fair” fight. One big mistake to make, you never want to fight fair. You need to have won the fight the moment it starts.

Sure, sometimes there are “special” situations. You get the jump on a retreating enemy with his CDs down, and you’re fully prepared. But then you have already won pretty much, so it’s not a fair fight. So all is well.

Anyhow, I can agree that when it comes to a 1v1 situations, we can be extremely strong. I’d push off rebalancing of this (or group combat, much more importantly) until our class mechanics and trait-mess is sorted, however. Especially the latter.

But again, complaining about 1v1 strength seems nearly pointless to me.
You don’t want to fight 1v1, assuming you want to win. I know many people will argue about this, but read the Art of War. The key to winning is to be certain of one’s victory before the fight starts.
Whether you achieve this by logistical, strategical or deceptive measures is irrelevant, but either way you want to make sure that when the fight starts, the enemy is the one fighting the impossible uphill battle.

I don’t really see how anyone can say “Only noobs get hit by Moa” when you can turn invisible and cast it o_O

Some people, when confronted with a problem, use stealth.
Now they have two problems.

Sorry, but arguing that I can use Stealth to cast Moa is a bit redundant, for two reasons:

1. Why is no one countering my stealth?
2. What’s the point? If I am going to shoot both a Stealth and an Elite, that Elite better be Time Warp because otherwise I’m wasting 2 out of 9 CDs on my hotbar for a marginal gain.

Winning is not a marginal gain.

Actually it is, quite so.
I’m trying to win a round of sPvP here. Or a material gain in WvW.

Given the scale of that, I need to make sure that whatever I disable via Moa is an absolute key lynchpin which gets knocked down as a result of this.
I mean, compare our alternatives:

• Mass Invisibility is an – albeit brief – 1200 radius PBAE target lock break. This is quite big, even if people give it so little credit, due to the short CD. In a say, 50v50 standoff in WvW this easily makes you win, even though it’s difficult to see how it did. But just following it, every enemy has to find his target again, leading to a very uneven exchange of damage for a 10+ seconds time.
• Time Warp is an absolute beast in any small~medium standoff (including 1v1). It tilts the combat so massively in one’s favour that it’s absurd we’re even discussing Moa, I mean it. If any of our Elites is overpowered, it would be Time Warp, against which Moa is a drop in the bucket at best.

There are no situations I can think of – beyond making people rage on the forum :P – where I would consider Moa a better tool than TW, and in virtually all situations I’d give MI the upper hand, too.

So I can secure a 1v1 kill?
Three problems with that:

1. Chances are I could kill you 1v1 just the same, unless you’re another Mesmer.
2. You don’t fight fair. Only people who aren’t playing to win do that, and we’re playing to win, as implied by the goal of Moa apparently being to win the fight. Fighting fair is intentionally losing, on a strategic scope. You simply don’t fight fair, period. Meaning that if I were to engage you 1v1… I don’t. Simple as that. Unless you just came out of another fight retreating with 20% HP and all CDs blown, and you don’t see me coming up to you, then I might actually consider it. Because again, I’m not playing fair, I’m playing to win.
3. And most importantly: So what? I secure 1 kill every 3 minutes, out of 50 kills every 3 minutes. Good work, now I showed them! :P

Correction:
There is one edge case. We could be running up to a defended spot in sPvP or a bridge or so in WvW, in a small team, against an enemy small team. Let’s say we’re in the losing position (meaning we have to fight fair, say, we’re being pursued by the zerg – in sPvP I’d argue you simply don’t attack the spot or you’re losing intentionally).
There might be situations, say, 3v3, where turning the fight into 3v2 for 10 seconds can be a substantial gain.

Even given that, I will argue that it’s extremely unlikely that this was a bigger gain than giving 2-3 people of my team Quickness for 10 seconds. Or even just a simple target break via MI.

There are cases were I would say Moa can cause serious damage to the enemy power. But not in a strategically important manner, given the duration and scope of the entire map conflict. And again, even then the damage caused by TW is always going to be higher, especially since TW cannot truly be cancelled by Moa itself outside of 1v1 (and we’re trying to fight only winning fights, so no 1v1 :P ).

Dude give it up, Moa is strong and sooner or later it will land even if you are the best player out there. There’s no animation telling you clearly that he’s casting it instead of something else, expecially when there are 3 other illusion around and you’r still trying to figure out where is the real one (even with the marker). Is it the best elite for tPvP? prolly not, but it sure is strong and makes 1v1 fights a joke.

Anyone who thinks a Mesmer is OP has obviously not played one PvE.

PvP they are good, not OP but good. PvE they struggle compared to most other classes.

Kedrith.6724:

Dude give it up, Moa is strong and sooner or later it will land even if you are the best player out there. There’s no animation telling you clearly that he’s casting it instead of something else, expecially when there are 3 other illusion around and you’r still trying to figure out where is the real one (even with the marker). Is it the best elite for tPvP? prolly not, but it sure is strong and makes 1v1 fights a joke.

Which is my point exactly.
It is strong for something meaningless which you should avoid in the first place.
It is strong when we are already having the upper hand (without it).
It is strong where it’s pointless, and inferior to the other two elites when it’s important.

I would argue Moa is too weak.
Yes it trolls other people’s elites, very much a source of giggles for a while, but as a way of improving my power… why? Why would I use this? I use it in PvE, where it can give a full 10s of regrouping against many targets, which are individually far more powerful than a PvP-target, so disabling the biggest one is a serious gain if a few people are on the ground already.

But in PvP? A single kill on a single target is so… meaningless, what’s the point of having something to secure it? Especially since it mostly excels in situations you either want to avoid or – better – have already won before using Moa?

If Moa were as strong in PvP as it is in PvE, then yes, we would have reason for complaints.

…

A single kill on a single target is hardly meaningless if that target is trying to kill you.

Cheyenne.1085:

A single kill on a single target is hardly meaningless if that target is trying to kill you.

To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.
(Sun Tzu, The Art of War)

The point is, you don’t win a fight by a single kill on one enemy every 3 minutes.
And again, how often would you have won without Moa or with a different Elite, making the whole comparison pointless?

You win a fight by not fighting fair. By never engaging where you might lose.
Moa is aggravating to the enemy due to it being so overpowering, but on a strategic level it is virtually unnoticeable.

For sPvP specifically, you attack points which you can run over in seconds, and you defend points which are only being heckled. You don’t fight on even ground. You don’t “engage”, you stomp, win, and abandon the point as soon as resistance shows up because it means there are easier targets.
This was one thing many players in WoW never understood, that playing merry-go-round with an enemy simply avoiding the direct conflict makes you lose, rage, and then most players apparently also never learn from it.
Smart enemies will not seek the conflict. They want to win, not score kills. Playing to win means focusing on what’s important, and most of the time players are prone to think kills are, making them easy prey for a simple strategy of evasion.

In WvW, likewise, why bind your zerg for 60 minutes defending a keep you just took. Leave a handful of defenders manning some artillery to drag it out, leave, and take a few more spots while the leaders are unable to yell their zerg down to abandon the current attack. If you’re really lucky they genuinely split up, THEN you return and crush the attackers, only to leave again when the second half tries to reinforce.

I think part of Moa’s rage-inducing nature is because there’s the prevalent thought that PvP in GW2 is about players fighting/killing players.

“Buff Mesmers” – Sun Tzu

Haha.
I would say that we definitely don’t need buffs. Not even for PvE. I’m more than happy with our total power.

I would however argue we suffer from a combination of pretty much every mechanical or design problem in the game right now:

• Our trait-layout is a really bad mess, unlike most other classes (we’re not the only one suffering from this!) the lines don’t seem to have a clear goal, and even the one which does (Inspiration) lacks focus onto that goal. Neither do the trait-lines mesh well with their stats, a few things like Sharper Images excepted.
• Our skills are all over the place, a result of how late some were added/changed. Many classes have a very clear distinction into 5 “types” of skills, we in theory do (Mantra, Manipulation, Glamour, Signet, Illusions), but these types never really materialize outside of the Signets and maybe Mantras.
• Our comparable types of abilities (say, Mantras), suffer from a mix of bugs and power difference so great that they’re not really comparable any more. Mantras especially are all over the place, a result of how much they got juggled in the final days of beta.
• Our core class mechanic doesn’t integrate well with many of our skills, and isn’t really well-integrated into the lines either (some more or less prohibit use of it).

Each individual problem is a tiny thing. Together they’re… not annoying, I’m having a blast, but reason for concern is a better way to describe it.
We seem extremely unfinished.

Tell you what, take Moa away entirely, but gimme something Illusion-based in turn.
Summon 9 Clones or something (only 3 get used for each Shatter).

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/64943-i-really-would-like-to-challenge-all-those-players-that-say-mesmer-is-so-easy-to-beat-if-you-know-the-class/

My main is a mesmer, I lost two 1v1 since release against two very good backstab/stealth thieves. I really would like to have duels, well across server duels in this game because I bet I would roflstomp most of those people that brag that they can beat mesmers because they played the class. Imo its just random internet bragging or you faced only low skill mesmers.

You win the fight if you know whos the real mesmer: Not true good mesmers always asume that you know the real one.

You will win the fight if you kill the phantasms, well my shatter and conditions do enough damage to kill you while my phantasms still hit like a truck.

You need to los to avoid damage, ok granted thats a good strategy but it allows the mesmer to reset the fight and send some phantasms after you around the corner.

I had 10 min fights in WvW against good bunker guardians but in the end they died, I had fights against very good death blossom thieves, but in the end null field + phantasm that hit at the milisec they unstealth wins the fight.

I bet if you challenge any good mesmer in 1v1 you will lose 99% of the matches.

This is not a post about balance, its about people that think its easy to win against a mesmer in 1v1.

Edit:

Do you know what people do if im (for example) on treb duty in tPvP?
They send another mesmer to fight me, a guardian to stall or 2 people to kill me. I dont even think that im a really super awesome skilled mesmer but thats just how it is. People that think you can kill a mesmer by just finding the real one or knowing the class mechanics dont have a clue, sorry but from my experience its just like that.

I have to say, sending 2 is what I’d always do (independent of the target class).
Sending 1 is just risking defeat. Not worth it.

I can’t speak much on the subject of sPvP. That said… I’m more in line with thinking like other Mesmers here. Our class is good, very well-rounded and requires thought to take down. It’s not so much that we’re OP as it is people still don’t know how to deal with us.

Half our community still doesn’t even know how to -play- us, and most people still complain that our class is too confusing or too weak to get into. So they expect that in PvP and get rolled, and they blame it on one mechanic or another.

Phantasms need to be killed. Period. I do it whenever I see another Mesmer in WvW. Why? Because an iDuelist on the field is more dangerous than anything else the Mesmer can do. Period.

Moa Morph needs to be blocked. But if it isn’t blocked, that’s fine. We mostly only ever use it to counter your ultimate. Which means you either popped your ult to abuse us, in which case… Nullified. Or you were about to die, in which case we had already won and you were wasting our time.

Other than that… it’s just a matter of nullifying our dangerous skills and killing us while we’re doing sub-par weapon damage, which is all of the time. MOST people still look at PvP as a DPS race, and they try to focus the Mesmer down rather than strategically whittle us down.

If you leave all our Phantasms and Clones up, if you don’t cleanse conditions, and if you try to just burst us down hoping we don’t Moa you… you’re going to lose. Our class is peculiar. Get used to that concept.