Guild Wars 2

Halcyon.7352:

I’m not sure if it’s been mentioned, but Critical Infusion is apparently slated to be nerfed, as mentioned in a livestream some time ago. That will possibly result in a hit to the PU build’s vigor and dodging uptime, depending on what’s changed.

They’re probably going to move it up to either master or grandmaster.

They’re increasing the cooldown to 10 seconds, that’s the change. As far as things go, that nerf will hit PU builds less hard than others, such as ‘s’ h a t t e r , since they have access to other defenses.

Edit: Bloody hell, the hoops I have to jump through to write normal words on this forum is mind-boggling.

Pyro, No one other than you have trolled the longest and been the most condescending to those of a differing opinion. I should actually be flattered that you took the time to compile the 5 most critical posts that I take pride in. You have so happily decided to put up there as a monument to negativity but if anyone would take time to read them they will see that I defended each one because the Mesmer community needed to hear it. You have failed once again to give a balanced portrayal of a person’s perspective, point of view and knowledge because you believe it doesn’t measure up to your own.

I’m not going to crawl down to your level by going through your post history to see how toxic you have been to this community. Sure you play Mesmer like the rest of us and you have obtained your knowledge and skill like the rest of us. You have also shared that with the community that knowledge but it is laced with the most caustic vitriol you can provide if someone dares dissent against it.

You are not the “god” of this Mesmer forum like people believe you are to be or your ego dictates to yourself. Good Day!

Revelations.3154:

Pyro, No one other than you have trolled the longest and been the most condescending to those of a differing opinion. I should actually be flattered that you took the time to compile the 5 most critical posts that I take pride in. You have so happily decided to put up there as a negative totem but as anybody who will read them will see, I defended each one because the Mesmer community needed to hear it. You have failed once again to give a balanced portrayal of a person’s perspective, point of view and knowledge because you believe it doesn’t measure up to your own.

I’m not going to crawl down to your level by going through your post history to see how toxic you have been to this community. Sure you play Mesmer like the rest of us and you have obtained your knowledge and skill like the rest of us. You have also shared that with the community that knowledge but it is laced with the most caustic vitriol you can provide if someone dares dissent against it.

You are not the “god” of this Mesmer forum like people believe you are to be or your ego dictates to yourself. Good Day!

no pyro in fact tests every single thing and combination and skill and trait out there. i was with him for a few of those tests. if pyro says something, its because he really does know and has gained that knowledge through hours of testing. i roamed with him while he tested out new builds and he is very helpful. but yes he is harsh when it comes down to false statements, he will tell u the harsh truth in your face. u cant handle it, well thats too bad.

To be fair, PU needs a nerf. But as I said on page 1, there’s always specs which are imbalanced for 1v1 (a result of this game’s genre, if you don’t like that, better play something else – smallscale cannot be balanced in RPGs).

Nerf PU, I’ll just play another spec which punishes players wanting to throw their lives away. Really, if people aren’t smart enough to play in teams, I’ll be happy to oblige their death wish.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Revelations.3154:

As a Mesmer who’s been playing since beta and has played every style. My achievements my skill that I have gained is getting glory hogged by one trait!? That’s where my ire comes from… I’m not trying to pick on players who use it…

You’ve trolled the forums since beta, and you get laughed out of them every time you show your face again….are those the achievements you’re talking about? You’re not doing any better this time.

See: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-Theory-of-Everything/first#post2837815

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-A-Matter-of-Perspective/first#post2828003

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Discussion-Comparing-Between-Sword-Scepter/first#post2343997

Edit: Ooh this one too: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/PSA-A-Scepter-s-Message-to-Mesmers/first#post2364061

Sigh… No one said his information was inaccurate. If you bother to read what I wrote instead of blind devotion to defend him. You could blatantly see vitriol laced posts. He has a following/subscribers that are willing and ready to defend him. I get that but it does not make him the de facto authority on the Mesmer profession.

Lest we forget: I was talking strictly about PU/DE and he goes to personally attack me derailing this thread by calling me a troll…

there are alot of very egotistical elitist trolls in this forum. (you know who you are, or you will after this post.)
i have a education for you.

before we start let me educate you that this is a thread about “balance” (we will get back to this.)

you seem to all have a incorrect idea of balance due to your philosophy of “winning is all that matters”. you will call anyone that tries to educate you on balance or a philosophy on what is right and wrong in regards to winning or fair combat a scrub. how is this not elitist and egotistical?

here is the actual mindset you need to have when determining if something is balanced or not in this game.

1) the purpose of this game:
the purpose of this game is to have fun (duh!). but not as a individual. in actuality all are supposed to have fun on both sides of a confrontation.
the purpose of this game is not winning as you seem to think.

2) the purpose of balance:
the purpose of balance in this game is to keep the game fun for both sides. if there is a imbalance then it causes aggravation for one side or the other and destroys the point of the game.

3) there are still TONS of imbalances in this game ranging from many class’s, builds, skills, and stat types.
it is not perfect as you trolls seem to think. its funny how you hold yourself up in high esteem because you think this way, AND will troll other people who object this idea by calling them scrubs*. HA

the philosophy of “winning no matter what is used” is not a philosophy that belongs in the discussion of balance. its simply a way for egotistical trolls to alienate themselves and those around them in to winners and scrubs.
there is no point to it that will help this community or really anything really besides feeding their own ego.

you are a embarrassment to the Mesmer community and don’t belong here

Partially what Chaos said, but I’d add a few important points:

• It’s entirely irrelevant what the numerical balance is. If the players, all of them, think Thief and Warrior is balanced in PvE, WvW and sPvP, then so be it. Doesn’t matter that the polled server data quite significantly disagrees with this, because that’s not what the players are seeing. Balance is as much smoke&mirrors as it is numerical changes. Make people think the game is balanced.
• We all suffer Red Traffic Light syndrome, heavily so. As such, we don’t actually want a balanced game. If we were to lose exactly 50% of our fights we’d think – subjectively – that we lose too often. Starcraft II did a lot of important experimental science in this regard, because players were all in agreement that say, Zergs are underpowered versus Terran. Blizzard pulls out numbers, 49/51. Yeah, right. Thing is, that’s the point. You need to win ~70% of the time to think you win half your matches. So before anyone complains about a lack of balance, keep in mind that your brain isn’t actually perceiving balance as balanced.
• Role-playing games cannot have balanced smallscale PvP. Or more specifically, they cannot balance engagements with less players per side than the total amount of effective classes. WoW for example used to have ~30 classes for this purpose (10 classes of 3 specs each, players campaigned for their specs, not their classes). GW1 had more like 8 as players were happily switching out skills a lot. WoW later achieved ok balance by making so many classes so generic that they effectively have 3 classes for PvE and 5-6 for PvP purposes. This is the basis of their balance system. GW2 currently has ~16-20 classes judging from the forums. In other words, sPvP and roaming cannot be balanced in the current stat of basic combat design. Should it change? Do we want more homogenized classes?

you do not balance mechanics around game types that don’t exist…

you do not balance mechanics in a vacuum…

1)1v1 is not an official game mode, it only comes up through players using specific tactics to create such situations. Changing PU based on 1v1 results is short sighted at best and bad design at worst.

2)you have to take into account the affect of what your changing on everything else thats happening with the class. You cant continually weaken or introduce bugs to one area while strengthening and removing bugs from others. Mesmers need a fix all around, just changing PU doesnt do enough.

@Chaos
the purpose of balance isnt to make the game fun… its to make the game fair. Not necessarily equal, but fair. Imbalances are what make a game a game. Without them two players of equal skill would fight to a draw every time, If you want perfect “balance” play tic tac toe.

I play PU burst, I kill a lot of people…I play several toons in WvW I kill a lot of PU mesmers….

The long and short of it is that:
-PU is a nice trait that justifies spending 30 points in a tree.
-It buffs (defensively) a class that wears light armor and gives them some sustainability.
-A lot of people that ask for Mesmer nerfs play thief.
-A lot of Mesmer’s that think it should be nerfed either play a thief or have been influenced by thieves.
-A lot of Mesmer’s won’t trait this out of fear of being labeled “bad”, I kill those Mesmers daily.
-It is no more over-powered than several other Defensive traits in this game (in no particular order of importance): Shadows Embrace, Shadows Rejuvenation, Dogged March (when combined with associated runes), Last Stand, Cleansing Ire, Defy Pain, Diamond Skin, Protective Shield, Stabilized Armor, Cloaking Device, Power Shoes, Altruistic Healing, Hide In Plain Sight, Empathetic Bond,….I could go on, and these are just those in the Defensive Trees….

Well I still think the problem is the torch, not PU.

Thieves can stealth spam and also gain benifits form doing it (cleansing, healing, inititive) but people tolerate it because it can be countered by interupting BP+HS or evading CnD. Perma-stealth thieves are annoying, and if they are out to just troll instead of fight then theres not much you can do, but for the most part there is coutnerplay to thieves.

Mesmers, on the other hand, stealth without warning or possibility to prevent it, and from any range (unlike CnD). That is the problem. If Prestige worked like the rangers LB stealth or thieves CnD, with a cast time/requirement to hit the target I think a lot of the frustration of fighting PU mesmers would disappear, because through good play you could actually do something to counter them.

@Cufufalating: but that change would make Torch with its weak phantasm extremly weak for any no PU build. Cant baance a wep aroun a trait that not al build use. A shatter build with torch atm is perfectly fine (even if I not agree with al this doom talk about PU eather).

/Osicat

Osicat.4139:

@Cufufalating: but that change would make Torch with its weak phantasm extremly weak for any no PU build. Cant baance a wep aroun a trait that not al build use. A shatter build with torch atm is perfectly fine (even if I not agree with al this doom talk about PU eather).

/Osicat

Except Arenanet does exactly that routinely.

Despite the given track record, I still agree though – they likely won’t change Torch too much, or probably at all. I could definitely see them giving the Prestige a cast time and a visual tell eventually though.

Halcyon.7352:

@Chaos
the purpose of balance isnt to make the game fun… its to make the game fair. Not necessarily equal, but fair. Imbalances are what make a game a game. Without them two players of equal skill would fight to a draw every time, If you want perfect “balance” play tic tac toe.

i could have given you a huge lecture on what is the point of balance but instead i gave you a simplified one…too simplified apparently
to make the game fair is to make the game fun. if it is unfair then the game is no longer fun for 1 side(or 2 if the OP user notices that the victory is sour).

by balancing the game and making it fair overall you can support the point of the game which is to have fun for all the players.

also you and many others have the idea that what i am only talking about is 1v1 or very small scale balance. in actuality i am lecturing you on the philosophy or the correct mindset or understanding that needs to take place in order to understand balance, and not come to the conclusion that balance does not matter according to other philosophies such as “sun tzu’s art of war”, or “playing to win”. those philosophies are irrelevant when discussing about balance and yet so many use that card.

PU is not only amazing in 1v1 or small scale. it is just as amazing in large group fights and many other aspects of the game. i know this because i have used and tested PU before and after PU.
it is not good in capturing points in conquest as i have mentioned before. but thats not because the trait is week there. instead its simply because of how the stealth mechanic works with capture points.
however everything besides focusing on capturing or defending a point it is very strong in terms of survivability and with the right utility very supportive.

Halcyon.7352:

Osicat.4139:

@Cufufalating: but that change would make Torch with its weak phantasm extremly weak for any no PU build. Cant baance a wep aroun a trait that not al build use. A shatter build with torch atm is perfectly fine (even if I not agree with al this doom talk about PU eather).

/Osicat

Except Arenanet does exactly that routinely.

Despite the given track record, I still agree though – they likely won’t change Torch too much, or probably at all. I could definitely see them giving the Prestige a cast time and a visual tell eventually though.

It actually has both a cast time and a visual tell. You can’t cast it while disabled, so it has some cast time, even if very small.

The visual tell for it is pretty subtle, but it does exist. There is sorta a sudden burp of air distortion, and that’s the activation effect of the prestige. I think there’s a sound effect that goes with it too. I’m not 100% on how to describe it atm, but I know that I can always distinguish it from say, decoy, and be ready to receive the aoe blast in a couple seconds.

Chaos.3579:

PU is not only amazing in 1v1 or small scale. it is just as amazing in large group fights and many other aspects of the game. i know this because i have used and tested PU before and after PU buff

You keep saying this, but everyone else says you’re wrong. What use is PU in a Zerg fight? You’ll stay alive, congrats I guess? You’ll still be useless. Other aspects of the game? Like what? PvE? Lol. The only other place for PU is in solo queue, or maybe lower ranked (less than top 1000) team queue, and it’s not stellar there either. You’re simply wrong.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Chaos.3579:

PU is not only amazing in 1v1 or small scale. it is just as amazing in large group fights and many other aspects of the game. i know this because i have used and tested PU before and after PU buff

You keep saying this, but everyone else says you’re wrong. What use is PU in a Zerg fight? You’ll stay alive, congrats I guess? You’ll still be useless. Other aspects of the game? Like what? PvE? Lol. The only other place for PU is in solo queue, or maybe lower ranked (less than top 1000) team queue, and it’s not stellar there either. You’re simply wrong.

lol i don’t know why you and so many others are coming to the conclusion that PU is ONLY good at defense. with the right set up it can have the majority of attack power that other Mesmer builds have. granted they cant match shatter builds with illusionary persona. however they can match the condition damage and single target phantasm builds to match other Mesmers.
if the PU users illusions don’t work thats only because aoe counters illusions and is in no way a PU weakness more so than the Mesmer class as a whole.

i have used PU. i know how it works in the majority of PVP scenarios.
why i consider it OP is because it can retain the attack power of many Mesmer builds while also giving them a ridiculous amount of survivability in comparison.
whats more is that its a very easy style to pick up and develop with a good starting build.

so the fact that
1) its easy to use
2)has a very good effectiveness to match other top Mesmer builds

results in
3) a new meta build that the majority of Mesmers will/are using then destroying the diversity we see mesmers use,and by extension our viable diversity as some mesmer builds which were average in effectiveness are then less than average in comparison to ths type of build in skill to effectivness ratio

skill to effectiveness ratio being
how easy it is to use in relation to how effective it is.

Revelations.3154:

Sigh… I knew this day would come eventually… where I would have to break my silence.

The Mesmer community has been in denial long enough! Prismatic Understanding IS A CRUTCH! Deceptive Evasion IS A CRUTCH!

Crutch : 1. a long stick with a crosspiece at the top, used as a support under the armpit by a lame person.

These 2 traits have been supporting our increasing reliance on Survivability

With DE being the longest running of the crutches but I digress lets focus on PU.
In the context of WvW roaming, About 6 months ago I remember my first duels with the pioneers of the PU build. They knew back then it was stupid easy to troll 2-4 players trying to play whack-a-clone while the popping in and out of stealth executing and negating attacks at the same time. Whether you tried to get them with brute force or condi they could reset with the application of stealth.

Now here we are 6 months later and many Mesmers are still clinging desperately to this trait amongst others all for the sake of survivability. You think I’m wrong? How many Mesmers continue to wrack their minds over placing 20 in dueling just to gain access to DE? Why? Because it adds a modicum of survivability to the Mesmer by target breaking. Next, PU on top of utility of our stealth mechanic which are mostly defense based, we get defensive boons to further bolster survivability. Even excrement has a modicum of nutritional value but you won’t catch me eating it!

So what happened? As other classes where buffed/defined or just better at hard countering what we offer as a profession. We remained stagnant to the point that we have to rely on cheesey gimmicks to just survive long enough to execute abilities and remain competitive.

We are now in this place for the following reasons; the Mesmer community is stagnating, and now we are choosing to perpetuate ignorance and name calling over dynamic innovation. There are 2 spheres of thought in this thread that can be summed up in a statement: "Is survival and doing anything for the sake of survival skill? Or is executing a strategy based on a balanced set traits and utilities skill?

My personal opinion on PU is that people are willing to defend a lackadaisical approach to Mesmer combat becoming no more than butterfly themed thieves. Having the audacity to laud PU as “strategy” and/or skill is laughable. Call it elitist but I dare you to post video of duel with a competent player without DE or PU let’s see how long you last.

Alas that is the current state of Mesmer call it what you will. I will still call them crutches, A-net gave us these “tools/traits” but they have to do better we have to continue to challenge them to do better even if we do not see immediate results… We need to be unified as a community, we need to be educated as a community and realize that Mesmer is not in a place where we want it.

Patently ridiculous.

Is the heavy armor of a warrior a crutch? Is the thief’s stealth a crutch? Is the necromancer’s Deathly Shroud a crutch?

Every class has features, gear, skills, and traits that have their role; survivability being one of them. Why you think somehow it’s ok for other classes while making ours a crutch just boggles the mind.

Frankly, I don’t always use PU; I don’t always use Deceptive Evasion. I don’t always use condition builds.

But the naysayers are missing the point. Getting mad at thieves for using their stealth skills is like getting mad at warriors for using their adrenaline skills. Come on, get real.

Mesmers were by design supposed to defend themselves with clones and invisibility. That was BY DESIGN, and yet now people are complaining that things like PU and DE are crutches or otherwise cheesy.

Think they are broken? suggest changes to the developers – they have on rare occasions actually implemented suggested changes! As it is, if they think something is too powerful, you can bet they will nerf it in time.

Of course, that requires they agree with you that it’s too powerful. As it is, they are already discussing a change to DE….

Cufufalating.8479:

Well I still think the problem is the torch, not PU.

Thieves can stealth spam and also gain benifits form doing it (cleansing, healing, inititive) but people tolerate it because it can be countered by interupting BP+HS or evading CnD. Perma-stealth thieves are annoying, and if they are out to just troll instead of fight then theres not much you can do, but for the most part there is coutnerplay to thieves.

Mesmers, on the other hand, stealth without warning or possibility to prevent it, and from any range (unlike CnD). That is the problem. If Prestige worked like the rangers LB stealth or thieves CnD, with a cast time/requirement to hit the target I think a lot of the frustration of fighting PU mesmers would disappear, because through good play you could actually do something to counter them.

I don’t think that is exactly true. While your description of the difference is partly correct I fail to see how this is the reason for the current trend of bashing the use of PU while you feel that Thieves are more tolerated.

There are two reasons. First, yes, Mesmers do have instant stealth. But so do Thieves. If being interrupted while attempting to go into stealth was such a big deal more Thieves would run Blinding Powder. It is a nice skill but it apparently is not mandatory. You also got to keep in mind that Veil and MI both got a cast time. MI cast time is almost 2s long and easily interrupted. Veil can be countered in a similar way like Shadow Refuge.

Second, talking about counters for CnD is unrealistic. Yes, it is recognizable as a skill. But that doesn’t mean that it susceptible to counters. The cast time is so short that it can hardly be interrupted reliably. Even by experienced players. Dodging it is almost pointless since the Thief can just hit CnD again. There also is the lovely Steal + CnD or Sw2 + CnD combo which overcomes the close combat issue. Black Powder and Heartseeker is easier to interrupt but your reaction time still has to be very fast. Also, it can be done at any range what you listed as advantage of, for example, Prestige.

The benefit Mesmers have over Thieves is that they are less predictable when stealthing. Thieves will try to land a Backstab in most cases. Mesmers don’t have to do that. However, suggesting that Mesmers can’t be countered or can be countered easier than Thieves because how the skills are designed is wrong in my opinion. There is a chance to predict Thieves but there is almost no way to react to the skills because of their short cast times (exception: Shadow Refuge) making the advantage of instant stealth very small in practice.

While there are fewer chances to interrupt Mesmer stealth (Prestige, Decoy) Thief stealth is far from being susceptible to being interrupted. People, mainly Thieves, also seem to forget that Mesmer stealth is rather limited. The time frames they are exposed and unstealthed is higher making it a lot easier to bring down a Mesmer.

Chaos.3579:

lol i don’t know why you and so many others are coming to the conclusion that PU is ONLY good at defense. with the right set up it can have the majority of attack power that other Mesmer builds have.

How do see PU providing anything but defense?

I got to agree with Pyro that this doesn’t matter when zerging because you will survive but are unable to deal damage while stealthed. Otherwise you would see more Thieves in zergs. It is underhwelming in PvP because your points will decap. PU doesn’t provide any offensive capabilities. That’s also the main reason why you won’t see it in PvE where DPS is king.

You are right that PU brings great survivability but it is far from being as potent in covering weaknesses as it is the case for certain builds on Warriors. Simply because stealth is very situational. You also have to give up a lot of offense. PU builds will never deal the same DPS as builds without PU. Trait-wise, shatter builds require IP and DE which you won’t get with PU. Phantasm builds will have to sacrifice either damage modifications or cooldown reductions. And so on. Utility-wise PU builds are restricted because you need at least Decoy and MI. Weapon-wise you are bound to Torch which provides less DPS than Sword or Pistol. That doesn’t mean that PU builds can’t bring any damage. But the damage will be far from the maximum potential. Simple offense-defense trade-off situation.

Right now, I feel that everyone assumes that a Mesmer runs PU even if he doesn’t. Just because he uses stealth. While PU is strong and probably needs to be toned down a notch, most of the whining is unjustified and fueled by raging people who got killed by a Mesmer. People whine about Thieves a lot, too. However, you can’t pin it down to one culprit on the Thieves. On Mesmers, PU is the obvious target for annoyed players. That probably is the main reason why it got that reputation of being cheesy.

calavel.6249:

A mesmer with a heavy stealth build is constantly pressuring and applying damage even when they play defensively.

I’m so tired of this argument. It is something Thieves brought up but it is far from the truth. A stealth heavy build runs Torch which doesn’t bring any pressure damage-wise. This leaves the Mesmer with potentially one DPS Phantasm which is easily disposed. Casting it from stealth brings almost no benefit for the Mesmer himself.

Mesmers can apply conditions and then stealth but so can Thieves. Mesmers can set up bursts from stealth but so can Thieves. Mesmers do not deal significant damage while stealthed. Get over it already.

I see alot of posts of people arguing that PU is strong because it provides everything in one trait from other traits, you guys need to stop throwing generalizations and state what exactly makes PU strong, here for example is my defense as to why you need to be specific and not throw any argument for the sake of backing up your opinion:

PU by itself is not strong, it really isnt check this out:
Cloaking skills last longer, and you gain a random boon when you are cloaked.

Aegis: 3 s
Protection: 3 s
Regeneration: 3 s (390 health)
Duration Increase: 1
Interval: 1

Ok it has an internal cd of 1 sec per boon and every boon has a low duration (3s) it only adds 1 sec extra of stealth, 1 second not a 10 sec or 20 sec but 1 sec.

Here are the stealths:
Disappear in a cloud of smoke, blinding nearby foes. Reappear three seconds later, burning nearby foes.
The Prestige
Stealth: 3 s
Damage: 151 (1.000)?
Blind: 5 s
Burning: 3 s (984 damage)
Radius: 240
Combo Finisher: Blast

30sec cd unless you apply torch cd trait from domination which is a 20 tp (trait points) into domination, having 20 in domination and 30 in chaos leaves you with only 20 tp left.

Decoy
Gain stealth and summon an illusion to attack your foe.

Duration: 3 s
Breaks stun
Range: 1,200
40 sec cd
Takes up an utility slot

Veil

Create a wall that grants stealth to you and your allies.

Stealth: 2 s [sic]
Curtain duration: 6 s
Combo Field: Light
Range: 900

Ok veil you can use veil 2 times in a row so in a total with PU it goes to 6secs of stealth, by 2x i mean you can walk through it 2x not use veil as a skill itself 2x in a row because it has a 90 sec cd with a short uptime duration.

this is a utility skill

Mass Invis
You and all allies gain stealth for a short time.

Stealth: 5 s
Radius: 1,200
90 sec cd

Our preferred elite most of the time

this leaves us with one utility left which is always Blink (teleport with a 30 sec cd unless traited for cd) and nullfield (40 sec cd condition cleanse etheral field which aside of torch is the only condition cleanse available)

Even if a mesmer decides to go all out stealth he will sacrifice either a stun break or condition cleanse, meaning hard cc , or hard conditions will kill him, and MI and Veil means 2 90s cd will only leave you with only decoy and blink or null field as option once used if not in cd already.

Ok so long cds ranging from 30-40 secs to 90s cds on stealth skills, taking up most of the utilities, and if traiting torch it leaves you with only 20 trait points left: which usually means dueling :

Adept Trait Critical Infusion Gain vigor when delivering a critical hit.
Master Trait Sharper Images Illusions inflict bleeding on critical hits.

meaning this will be your main source of damage along with the domination tier traits:

Adept Trait Illusion of Vulnerability Inflict vulnerability when you interrupt a foe.
Master Trait Dazzling Dazing a foe also applies vulnerability

Hence why Pistol is so used in these set ups, not only does it stacks vulnerability and on top of that the duelist crits = bleeds, the phantasm isn’t just there for raw damage but for condition.

So well doing this you are essentially having little options for shatters because shattering your main source of damage can be a hinder in 1vx fights unless you play a zerk build like osicat but even then its risky.

Condition cleans: Is the fatal flaw here, torch is essentially able to cleanse 1 condition per skill (2 skills), and sacrificing null field for a veil you are left with only lemongrass as the other source of condition clear, but most mesmers will use condition food because of the phant crit stack bleeds and on top of that the 10% condition duration of the chaos master tier trait.

You have no real weapon cds on phantasm and magic bullet or sword or sceptre, essentially running out of skills is gonna happen and then it goes bad in a 1vx.

Cleansing Confragation

Torch skills remove conditions. Reduces recharge on torch skills.

Miscellaneous Conditions Removed: 1
Miscellaneous Recharge Reduced: 20%

1 condition , what happens when you fight a necro, engie , warrior, etc who can apply constant or more then 1 condition (same goes for thieves and mesmers)

The only reason PU is strong at all is not because of it alone, rather the sum of the traits:

Adept Trait Metaphysical Rejuvenation Gain regeneration when your health drops below the threshold. (30 sec cd)

Master Trait Illusionary Membrane Gain protection when you gain regeneration. (15 sec cd)

Paired with

Cloaking skills last longer, and you gain a random boon when you are cloaked.
Aegis: 3 s
Protection: 3 s
Regeneration: 3 s (390 health)
Duration Increase: 1
Interval: 1

It means most of the time losing health to the 75% threshold will proc regen which is due to the master tier trait will also proc protection. Even then the regen protection from those traits have a cd on them, so you won’t stack boons like crazy. Also using a stealth skill gives way to extra protection or regen or aegis, hence sometimes you can see aegis , protection and protection at the same itme, but soon after only 1 or so will proc because of the internal cds.

I am getting tired of everyone jumping on the elite bandwagon of “I play shatter bro, I wont fight a PU build” , if they lose “PU is so broken, shatter takes skill” , heck I had someone tell me that phantasm builds were so underpowered now and needed a fix … I went ahead and beat them with a phantasm build, I went ahead and mirror build fought a shatter mesmer and won.

Every build sacrifices something for another thing. I come from chess and card games, I’ve seen a ton of these playstyles before, burn decks, fast burst decks, sustain playstyle, DoT (damage over time), Instakill (instagib), regenerating decks, etc. Shatter is a playstyle it sacrifices the inspiration tree for active shatter cd but also has an emphasis on phantasm design, of using the phantasm and damage burst to compensate for its lack of true condition clear or sustain. Hence there is a saying: The best defense can be the best offence, and vice, the best offence can be the best defense if used right.

I play whatever I want and whatever I like, i don’t hate or discriminate a playstyle over the other, for example phantasm builds rely on the phantasm as the mechanism, but lack true damage themselves, thus bypassing or destroying their phantasm and focusing the mesmer is the best strategy, also gives way to why phantasm builds have one goal : get 3 phantasms up for the finisher, it is a sustain burst, builds damage until the damage goes big, this is an ideal tool against thieves , because the more stealth a thieves uses the more it gets punished for stealthing.

I main a mesmer and its the most class I play, I don’t know much about the traits of other classes, but everything i have learned is from dueling, from observing openers, burst, sustain types, chaining, juking, where the damage source is coming from, the counter to the damage , and the list goes on. I’ve learned to fight other classes based on how I perceive the player using the build, do they open hard, do they build up, do they rely on hard cc, soft cc.

Alot of the time every build has a counter , the true skill kicks in when it is a player vs player or mob in which each tries to out do the other, but my bane is that some people don’t understand that builds are meant to work one way so they have an adavantage : Shatter is meant to be active and hard hitting, but it can become and any build for this matter a learned pattern, a learned set of skills. Knowing when to do what and how is the skill, but the playstyle is just how the build works.

Chaos.3579:

there are alot of very egotistical elitist trolls in this forum. (you know who you are, or you will after this post.)
i have a education for you.

before we start let me educate you that this is a thread about “balance” (we will get back to this.)

you seem to all have a incorrect idea of balance due to your philosophy of “winning is all that matters”. you will call anyone that tries to educate you on balance or a philosophy on what is right and wrong in regards to winning or fair combat a scrub. how is this not elitist and egotistical?

here is the actual mindset you need to have when determining if something is balanced or not in this game.

1) the purpose of this game:
the purpose of this game is to have fun (duh!). but not as a individual. in actuality all are supposed to have fun on both sides of a confrontation.
the purpose of this game is not winning as you seem to think.

2) the purpose of balance:
the purpose of balance in this game is to keep the game fun for both sides. if there is a imbalance then it causes aggravation for one side or the other and destroys the point of the game.

3) there are still TONS of imbalances in this game ranging from many class’s, builds, skills, and stat types.
it is not perfect as you trolls seem to think. its funny how you hold yourself up in high esteem because you think this way, AND will troll other people who object this idea by calling them scrubs*. HA

the philosophy of “winning no matter what is used” is not a philosophy that belongs in the discussion of balance. its simply a way for egotistical trolls to alienate themselves and those around them in to winners and scrubs.
there is no point to it that will help this community or really anything really besides feeding their own ego.

you are a embarrassment to the Mesmer community and don’t belong here

You’re only showing your ignorance by talking about a concept you clearly do not properly understand. Inform yourself. Maybe then you’d use the proper terms to at least show you’ve read the thesis in which you’re trying to talk about.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

Playing to Win has everything to do with game balance. Just as Fun has everything to do with game balance. Fun has everything to do with playing to win.

tl:dr Whatever you play Shatter , Phant, Hybrid, condition, recognize that all these playstyles have a strength and weakness, not one makes them better then the other, true skill is being able to perfect how you control the fight, but at the same time learning that there is a thing called Meta and Anti-Meta. Like card games and etc, things will be removed and added and the playstyles will suffer or get rewarded more, playing a fast build in a slow paced meta will mean you won’t sustain long enough, 1v1 you could win , but 1vx you will be suffering alot. Playing a slow paced build in a fast paced meta will mean you won’t have the burst to kill your opponent, but you could outsustain his big burst and apply your DoT on them.

Play how you want, but if you want to make an argument of why something is OP or broken, unfair or cheap or etc, make sure to be specific and hold your statement with validation, not just because of opinions on what should be right and what should be wrong. Also learn what the counters are and build around them, you can play Meta or Antimeta, choose one.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Chaos.3579:

there are alot of very egotistical elitist trolls in this forum. (you know who you are, or you will after this post.)
i have a education for you.

before we start let me educate you that this is a thread about “balance” (we will get back to this.)

you seem to all have a incorrect idea of balance due to your philosophy of “winning is all that matters”. you will call anyone that tries to educate you on balance or a philosophy on what is right and wrong in regards to winning or fair combat a scrub. how is this not elitist and egotistical?

here is the actual mindset you need to have when determining if something is balanced or not in this game.

1) the purpose of this game:
the purpose of this game is to have fun (duh!). but not as a individual. in actuality all are supposed to have fun on both sides of a confrontation.
the purpose of this game is not winning as you seem to think.

2) the purpose of balance:
the purpose of balance in this game is to keep the game fun for both sides. if there is a imbalance then it causes aggravation for one side or the other and destroys the point of the game.

3) there are still TONS of imbalances in this game ranging from many class’s, builds, skills, and stat types.
it is not perfect as you trolls seem to think. its funny how you hold yourself up in high esteem because you think this way, AND will troll other people who object this idea by calling them scrubs*. HA

the philosophy of “winning no matter what is used” is not a philosophy that belongs in the discussion of balance. its simply a way for egotistical trolls to alienate themselves and those around them in to winners and scrubs.
there is no point to it that will help this community or really anything really besides feeding their own ego.

you are a embarrassment to the Mesmer community and don’t belong here

You’re only showing your ignorance by talking about a concept you clearly do not properly understand. Inform yourself. Maybe then you’d use the proper terms to at least show you’ve read the thesis in which you’re trying to talk about.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

Playing to Win has everything to do with game balance. Just as Fun has everything to do with game balance. Fun has everything to do with playing to win.

Ross has a point Fun is subjective, people play sports, some for fun, some for competition, same with games, some people want to do everything to be on top, others reach the top enjoying what they do. Trying to force your viewpoint of what fun is on others will make you alienate others, finding people who share the same view as you , will make you grow more.

Xaylin.1860:

Mesmers do not deal significant damage while stealthed. Get over it already.

Uh, with GS/ sw-sw, I can tell you I deal significant dmg with a PU build. It’s not a full shatter burst, but it’s really impressive coming from a build that “sacrifices” 30 points into a defense trait.

Nausicca.6038:

Xaylin.1860:

Mesmers do not deal significant damage while stealthed. Get over it already.

Uh, with GS/ sw-sw, I can tell you I deal significant dmg with a PU build. It’s not a full shatter burst, but it’s really impressive coming from a build that “sacrifices” 30 points into a defense trait.

PU power crit builds are essentially phant but without phant or shatter fully, meaning if you shatter too early or on critical times you are exposed, meaning if people kill your phantasms first, you wont do much damage, on another note, sw/sw GS builds are strong 1v1 like phantasm builds, but lack the phantasm health boost, and are mainly interrupt, so stunbreak and good AoE or condition , or if thief , blinds , retaliation, can be good counters condition cleanse is a must for the bleeds and vulnerability stacking.

Nausicca.6038:

Xaylin.1860:

Mesmers do not deal significant damage while stealthed. Get over it already.

Uh, with GS/ sw-sw, I can tell you I deal significant dmg with a PU build. It’s not a full shatter burst, but it’s really impressive coming from a build that “sacrifices” 30 points into a defense trait.

I didn’t say that PU builds can’t deal damage. But stealth heavy PU builds won’t deal significant damage while stealthed because they run Torch. Of course, your weapon set up is able to deal damage through Phantasms but you sacrificed your most powerful stealth skill for it. You won’t exceed 15s of stealth per minute (traited Decoy, Veil, MI). Not really a stealth heavy build. Neither the maximum amount of Phantasm damage.

Xaylin.1860:

Nausicca.6038:

Xaylin.1860:

Mesmers do not deal significant damage while stealthed. Get over it already.

Uh, with GS/ sw-sw, I can tell you I deal significant dmg with a PU build. It’s not a full shatter burst, but it’s really impressive coming from a build that “sacrifices” 30 points into a defense trait.

I didn’t say that PU builds can’t deal damage. But stealth heavy PU builds won’t deal significant damage while stealthed because they run Torch. Of course, your weapon set up is able to deal damage through Phantasms but you sacrificed your most powerful stealth skill for it. You won’t exceed 15s of stealth per minute (traited Decoy, Veil, MI). Not really a stealth heavy build. Neither the maximum amount of Phantasm damage.

he should refer to my previous posts, I explain why PU means : less stealth more damage, more stealth less damage. You sacrifice one for the other, also explain why PU builds hurt : mainly heavy phant or heavy bleed, or hybrid,heavy conditons, but sometimes I just want to write a guide on what i have learned and share with others how to read opener combos, how chaining works, what juking is, etc, but Pyro does a good job so I always think it should be common sense, half the time it isn’t.. people say they can’t keep track of me even in shatter mode, its a compliment, but really just need to play the class long enough for it to become second nature

Cufufalating.8479:

Well I still think the problem is the torch, not PU.

Thieves can stealth spam and also gain benifits form doing it (cleansing, healing, inititive) but people tolerate it because it can be countered by interupting BP+HS or evading CnD. Perma-stealth thieves are annoying, and if they are out to just troll instead of fight then theres not much you can do, but for the most part there is coutnerplay to thieves.

Mesmers, on the other hand, stealth without warning or possibility to prevent it, and from any range (unlike CnD). That is the problem. If Prestige worked like the rangers LB stealth or thieves CnD, with a cast time/requirement to hit the target I think a lot of the frustration of fighting PU mesmers would disappear, because through good play you could actually do something to counter them.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder

10 second longer recharge granted that, but still pretty much used like a poor-mans stunbreaker by most thieves….and just used as “without warning or possibility to prevent” as torch stealths.

King Amadaeus.8619:

Cufufalating.8479:

Well I still think the problem is the torch, not PU.

Thieves can stealth spam and also gain benifits form doing it (cleansing, healing, inititive) but people tolerate it because it can be countered by interupting BP+HS or evading CnD. Perma-stealth thieves are annoying, and if they are out to just troll instead of fight then theres not much you can do, but for the most part there is coutnerplay to thieves.

Mesmers, on the other hand, stealth without warning or possibility to prevent it, and from any range (unlike CnD). That is the problem. If Prestige worked like the rangers LB stealth or thieves CnD, with a cast time/requirement to hit the target I think a lot of the frustration of fighting PU mesmers would disappear, because through good play you could actually do something to counter them.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder

10 second longer recharge granted that, but still pretty much used like a poor-mans stunbreaker by most thieves….and just used as “without warning or possibility to prevent” as torch stealths.

There nothing wrong with BP, just as theres nothing wrong with decoy. I am not saying all stealth everywhere must have a slow and obvious animation, I am just saying Presitage with its relative low CD and NO coutnerplay is too much.

Skills like SR or MI I think are great because they provide great benifit to the user but also have risks ascosiated with them (long cast time on MI, SR gives away the thief location and its possible to knock him out of it).

Skills like BP and Decoy are both fine because they are short stealths and are really panic buttons, there nothing wrong with that.

Viel is pretty weak, but its intended to be a group support utility so its not surprising or bad that its weak when only used for personal use.

As I already say, CnD is very dodgable (really it is, D/D thieves are the #1 easiest thief to fight when you have got the tactic down) and if it is missed/blocked/dodged it wastes a huge amout of inititive and usually forces a defensive utility out of the thief.

BP/HS is somewhat… questionable. I think we all know these thieves are trolly and a bit too much, but even then it does come at the cost of a lot of inititive and it is at least possible to interupt it (even if in practice its hard to execute).

Prestige, however, has no drawbackws. No counter play, no cost to the mesmer. Nothing. its just a free 4s stealth on a 24s CD (with traits, since this is the sort of mesmer we are discussing here) and IMO that is not right.

WhiteRose.6934:

Malakin.2809:

…

We’re just going in circles at this point and it’s getting exhausting as you keep trying to put words in my mouth in an attempt to make a point. We were talking about roaming, I mentioned that earlier on. So yes, small groups or solo. That’s what people seem to need PU for after all.

And yes, I am being condescending and critical, I’m glad you’re understanding how I view the PU players. Read my post history if you need a refresher. Honestly, the fact that people are so defensive over a single build is proof enough that it has become a crutch.

Yeah there is no point in discussing if you just ignore the parts you don’t like. For example the part I said about criticizing PU is no better than saying “glassy builds are lame because you just burst people down before they can actually fight”.

I’m not defending any build in particular. I’m criticizing the trash talk by some “superior” players towards people using a build they don’t like and then even presenting themselves as victims.

Cufufalating.8479:

Prestige, however, has no drawbackws. No counter play, no cost to the mesmer. Nothing. its just a free 4s stealth on a 24s CD (with traits, since this is the sort of mesmer we are discussing here) and IMO that is not right.

How is a 50 point trait investment ‘free’ or with ‘no cost’?
You also got to keep the Phantasm in mind which is rather weak.

Narsil.6579:

Xaylin.1860:

Nausicca.6038:

Xaylin.1860:

Mesmers do not deal significant damage while stealthed. Get over it already.

Uh, with GS/ sw-sw, I can tell you I deal significant dmg with a PU build. It’s not a full shatter burst, but it’s really impressive coming from a build that “sacrifices” 30 points into a defense trait.

I didn’t say that PU builds can’t deal damage. But stealth heavy PU builds won’t deal significant damage while stealthed because they run Torch. Of course, your weapon set up is able to deal damage through Phantasms but you sacrificed your most powerful stealth skill for it. You won’t exceed 15s of stealth per minute (traited Decoy, Veil, MI). Not really a stealth heavy build. Neither the maximum amount of Phantasm damage.

he should refer to my previous posts, I explain why PU means : less stealth more damage, more stealth less damage. You sacrifice one for the other,

Ha, you made my day guys, thank you. And it’s “she”, not “he”. But I forgive you, you couldn’t know :p

Morfedel.4165:

Revelations.3154:

Sigh… I knew this day would come eventually… where I would have to break my silence.

The Mesmer community has been in denial long enough! Prismatic Understanding IS A CRUTCH! Deceptive Evasion IS A CRUTCH!

Crutch : 1. a long stick with a crosspiece at the top, used as a support under the armpit by a lame person.

These 2 traits have been supporting our increasing reliance on Survivability

Patently ridiculous.

Is the heavy armor of a warrior a crutch? Is the thief’s stealth a crutch? Is the necromancer’s Deathly Shroud a crutch?

Every class has features, gear, skills, and traits that have their role; survivability being one of them. Why you think somehow it’s ok for other classes while making ours a crutch just boggles the mind.

Keep in mind calling something a crutch isnt necessarily a bad thing. Look at it this way. A crutch allows a lame man to walk, and you don’t laugh at a lame man for using one. In fact it’s smart that he does. You could argue that the mesmer class is severely disabled or lame in the current meta. PU is a crutch that allows the Mesmer to walk in the meta. That’s not a bad thing, it’s good. Things like DE, and Mesmer Staff have also been things that have held Mesmers up since the games release. The problem isnt that these crutches exist, rather that there aren’t enough.

If there is a build out there that is not working in the meta, it could very likely be made viable with the introduction of a new change to the class, i.e. the introduction of a “crutch”. It’ll hold the mesmer/build/player up, allowing it to stand where before it was already as good as laying down dead.

Nausicca.6038:

Narsil.6579:

Xaylin.1860:

Nausicca.6038:

Xaylin.1860:

Mesmers do not deal significant damage while stealthed. Get over it already.

Uh, with GS/ sw-sw, I can tell you I deal significant dmg with a PU build. It’s not a full shatter burst, but it’s really impressive coming from a build that “sacrifices” 30 points into a defense trait.

I didn’t say that PU builds can’t deal damage. But stealth heavy PU builds won’t deal significant damage while stealthed because they run Torch. Of course, your weapon set up is able to deal damage through Phantasms but you sacrificed your most powerful stealth skill for it. You won’t exceed 15s of stealth per minute (traited Decoy, Veil, MI). Not really a stealth heavy build. Neither the maximum amount of Phantasm damage.

he should refer to my previous posts, I explain why PU means : less stealth more damage, more stealth less damage. You sacrifice one for the other,

Ha, you made my day guys, thank you. And it’s “she”, not “he”. But I forgive you, you couldn’t know :p

Omg im so sorry but oh yeah about the phantasm in stealth, every other class does it (if they have access to stealth) : example: Thief procs stealth summons thieves guild unstealthed, engie procs stealth : drops crate, ranger procs stealth : pet still visible and does damage while ranger is incognito. its because pets are indirect damage outside the entity itself, therefore they dont count as direct damage, direct damage uncloaks the mesmer or thief or etc.

Narsil.6579:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Chaos.3579:

there are alot of very egotistical elitist trolls in this forum. (you know who you are, or you will after this post.)
i have a education for you.

before we start let me educate you that this is a thread about “balance” (we will get back to this.)

you seem to all have a incorrect idea of balance due to your philosophy of “winning is all that matters”. you will call anyone that tries to educate you on balance or a philosophy on what is right and wrong in regards to winning or fair combat a scrub. how is this not elitist and egotistical?

here is the actual mindset you need to have when determining if something is balanced or not in this game.

1) the purpose of this game:
the purpose of this game is to have fun (duh!). but not as a individual. in actuality all are supposed to have fun on both sides of a confrontation.
the purpose of this game is not winning as you seem to think.

2) the purpose of balance:
the purpose of balance in this game is to keep the game fun for both sides. if there is a imbalance then it causes aggravation for one side or the other and destroys the point of the game.

3) there are still TONS of imbalances in this game ranging from many class’s, builds, skills, and stat types.
it is not perfect as you trolls seem to think. its funny how you hold yourself up in high esteem because you think this way, AND will troll other people who object this idea by calling them scrubs*. HA

the philosophy of “winning no matter what is used” is not a philosophy that belongs in the discussion of balance. its simply a way for egotistical trolls to alienate themselves and those around them in to winners and scrubs.
there is no point to it that will help this community or really anything really besides feeding their own ego.

you are a embarrassment to the Mesmer community and don’t belong here

You’re only showing your ignorance by talking about a concept you clearly do not properly understand. Inform yourself. Maybe then you’d use the proper terms to at least show you’ve read the thesis in which you’re trying to talk about.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

Playing to Win has everything to do with game balance. Just as Fun has everything to do with game balance. Fun has everything to do with playing to win.

Ross has a point Fun is subjective, people play sports, some for fun, some for competition, same with games, some people want to do everything to be on top, others reach the top enjoying what they do. Trying to force your viewpoint of what fun is on others will make you alienate others, finding people who share the same view as you , will make you grow more.

Or make you degenerate more, which I’d argue is the case coming from his point of view.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Narsil.6579:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Chaos.3579:

there are alot of very egotistical elitist trolls in this forum. (you know who you are, or you will after this post.)
i have a education for you.

before we start let me educate you that this is a thread about “balance” (we will get back to this.)

you seem to all have a incorrect idea of balance due to your philosophy of “winning is all that matters”. you will call anyone that tries to educate you on balance or a philosophy on what is right and wrong in regards to winning or fair combat a scrub. how is this not elitist and egotistical?

here is the actual mindset you need to have when determining if something is balanced or not in this game.

1) the purpose of this game:
the purpose of this game is to have fun (duh!). but not as a individual. in actuality all are supposed to have fun on both sides of a confrontation.
the purpose of this game is not winning as you seem to think.

2) the purpose of balance:
the purpose of balance in this game is to keep the game fun for both sides. if there is a imbalance then it causes aggravation for one side or the other and destroys the point of the game.

3) there are still TONS of imbalances in this game ranging from many class’s, builds, skills, and stat types.
it is not perfect as you trolls seem to think. its funny how you hold yourself up in high esteem because you think this way, AND will troll other people who object this idea by calling them scrubs*. HA

the philosophy of “winning no matter what is used” is not a philosophy that belongs in the discussion of balance. its simply a way for egotistical trolls to alienate themselves and those around them in to winners and scrubs.
there is no point to it that will help this community or really anything really besides feeding their own ego.

you are a embarrassment to the Mesmer community and don’t belong here

You’re only showing your ignorance by talking about a concept you clearly do not properly understand. Inform yourself. Maybe then you’d use the proper terms to at least show you’ve read the thesis in which you’re trying to talk about.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

Playing to Win has everything to do with game balance. Just as Fun has everything to do with game balance. Fun has everything to do with playing to win.

Ross has a point Fun is subjective, people play sports, some for fun, some for competition, same with games, some people want to do everything to be on top, others reach the top enjoying what they do. Trying to force your viewpoint of what fun is on others will make you alienate others, finding people who share the same view as you , will make you grow more.

Or make you degenerate more, which I’d argue is the case coming from his point of view.

By this point anyone who brings up the argument PU is easymode or etc is easymode, I ask them to tell me exactly what PU or said build is, to give me the actual description and how it works, turns out most don’t even know what it really does, and most just hate it cus they see PU everywhere…

PU is just too easy, low skill cap, high reward low risk.
But this is a problem of the whole game. Almost every prof got their ’’cheesy’’ build that is really good at something. The only thing mesmer lacks is potential other viable builds in both roaming, as well as in large scale WvW.

I’ve played PU myself a lot and I just notice how easy it is to win almost any 1v1 or 1v2. The spike shatter has isn’t really much higher than pu phantasm got, while shatter got a much lower survivability.

PU got too much in 1. Regen, prot and aegis +1 sec longer stealth is just too much. Wereas thief loses his stealth when attacking, a mesmer can still deal a lot damage while being stealthed.

Something that slipped through my mind was a change to stealth overall. Theres so much qq about perm stealth specs that I thought like, maybe it can be changed to this:
‘’When stealthing within 8(/10) seconds from the previous stealth, your stealth will last 1 second shorter. This goes on till the 10 seconds have passed from your last used stealth, meaning you would get 2 sec shorter stealth if you use a stealth within the 10 seconds of the 2nd used stealth in the chain and 3 sec shorter stealth when you use it within the 10 seconds of the 3rd used stealth in the chain.’’

While applying that, PU’s buffs should also all last 1 sec shorter in duration. While doing this:
- phantasm should get a 5-10% damage nerf
- mind blast should get a blast finisher
- mantra of distraction should become aoe when it’s traited with CS, while it will have a 0.25 sec daze when hitting 5 targets and 0.5 sec daze when it hits 3 targets.
- Scepter #1 needs to be reworked and it’s velocity needs to go higher
- Scepter #2 torment needs to be scaled down to 4 stacks
- Scepter #3 needs to be changed to 2.5sec casting time instead of 3 seconds
- Chaos storm should have 1/2 of it’s ticks be dazes, while applying a condition every tick with it too.
- Chaotic Dampening now also provides Chaos storm to have a 25% extra chance (so 75% chance) to do daze every tick.
- Chaos storm cooldown has been increased to 40 from 35.
- Illusionary leap needs to be fixed or reworked
- Mimic needs a rework
- Time warp needs to become a glamour skill or have it’s cooldown reduced to 180 seconds.
- Moa needs reworked or replaced by another elite based on aoe lockdown
- Chaos armor needs to become an aura, so it can stack in duration. Blast finishers should reward 3 seconds of aura( instead of 2?).
- Blurred frenzy should be reworked to 6x hitting from 8x, but have it’s total damage remain the same and the casting time too.
- Increasing blurred frenzy’s distortion with 0.25sec to match it’s casting time
- On clone death traits have an internal cooldown of 2 seconds, but have it’s duration increased by 25% to compensate.
- Blinding befuddlement got his internal cooldown removed
- Blinding befuddlement moved to grandmaster trait
- Imbued diversion moved to master trait, this trait works in combination with Illusionary persona
- Phantasmal haste bug on specific phantasm to not work must be fixed
- Casting time of all mantra’s has been reduced to 2.25 sec casting time from 2.75
- Arcane thievery cooldown has been reduced to 40 seconds from 45
- Feedback has it’s cooldown reduced to 35 from 40
- Illusionary warden has been fixed to propperly attack when standing close enough to the target.
- Into the void it’s cooldown has been reduced to 0.5 seconds from 1 second.
- Temportal Curtain now gives 3 seconds of swiftness to allies walking through the Curtain who already got swiftness.
- Restorative Illusions now heals aoe radius of 360 up to 5 allies
- Cleansing inscriptions now allows you to remove 2 conditions when using a signet from 1.
- Shattered Strength (25 minor trait illusions) now grants 2 stacks of might for 10 seconds up from 1 stack.
- Cry of frustration has it’s damage increased by 25% and now applies 4 seconds of confusion up from 3 seconds.

Just throwing in my 2 cents.

Chaos.3579:

Pyroatheist.9031:

It’s pretty simple. People don’t like to lose 1v1 fights. PU builds happen to be very strong in 1v1 fights. Therefor, people love to complain about PU.

this is a very mislead argument pyro

PU in terms of survivability is just as strong in dueling as it is in every other PVP apsect of the game that players can participate in. wvw, small scale fights, gvg, 1v?, roaming, ect.

the only place it is week. or rather pointless is conquest were stealth stops point contesting, and thats not at all related to the trait more so than the stealth mechanic.

the trait needs a nerf. it mindless gives a ridiculous amount of survivability on top of the already amazing survivability of stealth.

there are no counters or tactics that even half of the class’s can use to counter PU survivability, no way to counter disengagement potential, and no way to counter sustained dps potential through illusions while remaining undetectable and untargetable through a long and extended chain of stealths

its just too good with no skill investment needed from its user.
thus why would someone use something thats less effective and takes more skill?
this trait destroys viable diversity

so in order to preserve viable diversity among the users of the Mesmer profession this trait needs a nerf/major functionality change or we will watch as the majoirty of mesmer builds are devolved in to a meta based on utilizing the survivability staple that stealth combined with this trait provides….oops seems this has already happened. just like it happened to warrior.

I think you’re exaggerating the survivability a lot… the issue is mesmers dont have access to boons easily outside of using staff, traiting in to interruptions/shatters, or running that silly signet (which I run in dungeons with 70% boon duration). PU is a way for mesmers to get access to boons – where every other class can easily do so, we’re kinda stuck having to give up certain things. The strength is that people just stealth a lot, so it isnt that the boons are helping them survive.. but the stealth is actually where the survivability comes in play. You basically have a thief that can generate clones. What you’re essentially asking for is a nerf to stealth, not PU – PU by itself doesnt change the fact that we wear light armour and even at 2700 armour can get hit with an 8k backstab – the reason it’s so “strong” is because mesmers finally get a chance to play at the same level as the other classes in terms of equal footing survivability.

Dont go on about how our clones “confuse” people – because anyone who gets fooled by a clone or phantasm would lose anyway regardless of PU.

If you want to know about counters, it’s pretty easy. Necros practically ignore it, thieves just apply poison and bleed to counter any regen (protection is hardly up as long as you make it seem), rangers have a few options depending on the builds they run, warriors just tank and dps it anyway, guardians have access to burn dmg… etc. And surprise surpise, anyone with high burst can take you down. Mesmers arent the only ppl with access to those boons lol.

I dont think we should further handicap a class because most people dont bother to l2p. Engis have insane survivability, but no one seems to say they’re op and need to be nerfed. Don’t let silly things fool you. It’s always about the player – I’ve never seen any top level players who roam regularly complain about PU, they just acknowledge that it’s strong and they have ways to counter it.

BlackDevil.9268

Try playing a GS focus sword shatter against PU builds you can thank me later, shatter isn’t about the survivability its about the raw damage, yes I understand it will become harder but you shouldn’t blame one trait as the culprit, I said once and I will say it again PU alone is like using chaos storm for 3 secs and getting 2 boons random, the only reason it procs so many is because of the 2 first tier traits ( Illusionary membrane and Metaphysical rejuvenation), but people forget that and attack the trait regardless, instead of suggesting ways to remove those or tweak them differently. Also shatter can do one thing PU cant : Instagib, unload insane damage in one go, i seen mesmers deal insane damage using shatter, PU is more of a phantasm type, it builds up the phantasms but cant instacrit anyone down, hence most classes if traited can just run away and return. Atm Dire P/D thieves are gonna start popping around perma stealth, even worse then the mesmer, even PU doesn’t save you from the onslaught of condis, ive started using shatter , or phant hybrid builds now because PU has one fatal flaw, true active condition clear..

Also shatter can counter PU really well if played right and so can phantasm, ive done tests and fought other mesmers, shatter has faster phant and clone regeneration, phant builds can stack phants on the target and still have condi clear at most.

Any mesmer build can work 1v1 on anyone, 1vx is a different story, too much sustain from dire thieves, perplexity thieves, bunker condi rangers, zerk axe gs warriors , cc warriors, perma retal regen bunker guiardians, I can go on.

PU is not the problem. PU Is a GM trait that give you boons and 1 second extra stealth.

Yeah it increases you survivability, but having traits that increase your survivability is not a problem. Many classes have traits to increase their survivability.

The problem is that you can go in stealth and your illusions are still doing dmg, ether power pressure or condition pressure.
So problem is doing dmg while you are in stealth surviving and 99% of time not being hit.

But let’s be honest if you are fighting outnumbered should be easy to your enemies to destroy your phantasm and your clones while you are not there, negating the pressure.

If it’s 1vs1 could be bit harder if you lack aoe, but you have the time at least to destroy a phantasm. 99% of PU builds don’t put extra health on phantasms so they die easy.

You can say but if they destroy the clones they will probably get conditions, well the game has 2 weapon set for some reason. If you want to go all bursty in melee and don’t carry a ranged weapon you shouldn’t complain. It’s like complaining that i’m stunned or I dyeing to conditions when I don’t carry anything to counter those things.

The counter to phantasm builds was to kill the phantasm as son as you could so that you could focus on the mesmer. With PU is more or less the same but in some case you need a ranged weapon so that you don’t get full of conditions.

The meta change and going all bursty without any survival tool being stun breaker or condition removal will only take you so far. You will find people that will counter your build and you will not have the proper tools to fight them.

When people complain about survivability that mesmer has, you have to keep in mind that most classes also have survivability tools, some have regen build other boons builds other invulnerability, disengage abilities etc…
I don’t think PU is making the mesmers OP.

Is it making some builds better then others??’ Yes it is. But there was always builds better then others.

Narsil.6579:

BlackDevil.9268

Try playing a GS focus sword shatter against PU builds you can thank me later, shatter isn’t about the survivability its about the raw damage, yes I understand it will become harder but you shouldn’t blame one trait as the culprit, I said once and I will say it again PU alone is like using chaos storm for 3 secs and getting 2 boons random, the only reason it procs so many is because of the 2 first tier traits ( Illusionary membrane and Metaphysical rejuvenation), but people forget that and attack the trait regardless, instead of suggesting ways to remove those or tweak them differently. Also shatter can do one thing PU cant : Instagib, unload insane damage in one go, i seen mesmers deal insane damage using shatter, PU is more of a phantasm type, it builds up the phantasms but cant instacrit anyone down, hence most classes if traited can just run away and return. Atm Dire P/D thieves are gonna start popping around perma stealth, even worse then the mesmer, even PU doesn’t save you from the onslaught of condis, ive started using shatter , or phant hybrid builds now because PU has one fatal flaw, true active condition clear..

Also shatter can counter PU really well if played right and so can phantasm, ive done tests and fought other mesmers, shatter has faster phant and clone regeneration, phant builds can stack phants on the target and still have condi clear at most.

Any mesmer build can work 1v1 on anyone, 1vx is a different story, too much sustain from dire thieves, perplexity thieves, bunker condi rangers, zerk axe gs warriors , cc warriors, perma retal regen bunker guiardians, I can go on.

I have played, and actually am playing shatter in roaming and still find it not satisfying. Too many times that I can’t win the fight (Due too many enemies or too tanky enemies) whereas I die or I have to use at least 2 stealths to escape.
Heres a video of me shatter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k2iPuP8QrY
Yes it’s against total brainfarts, but I guess worth a watch if you’re interested.
If you have tips, I’m pleased to hear.

Then again I’ve played shatter only in raids, which is totally different from roaming. I don’t find shatter really much harder in roaming than my PU build if you compare 1v2 shatter specced with a 1v3 pu fight.

Shatter is viable till you face good players. You wont be so easy to escape against someone with a good build with lots of mobility and some knowledge when to use his blocks/immunities.

With the upcomming vigor nerf you can see a pretty big survivability nerf for almost all builds of mesmer. I don’t really think shatter can handle that in roaming.

For what a max dps spec should be, I find the damage also very unsatisfying. PU mesmer in full zerker can do the same damage solo target and still have more survivability. The only way I see shatter being good is when you can get 2 enemies together and pull off a hard hitting shatter combo on them both. Sadly, this barely happens and if you fight with a focus I can imagine the lack of stealth to escape, damage to kill or condition removal to survive.

Also what you said about that pu mesmers can’t burst someone down in a few seconds? Well I gotta be honest with you, the combo I usually pull off at start can usually bring down the same noobs you 1 shot with shatter in the same time, which is with a pu build. Like I said before, PU builds got the same dps kittenter builds got. You rely on hard hitting 10 seconds cooldown skills, I rely on all sources of damage. Why? Because I have probably twice as much sustain as you do, while my damage isn’t twice as low.

This is also why you will probably not win from equal skilled p/d thieves. You wont be able to 1 shot them, while it’s really easy for them to keep up damage.

Well, shatter can’t really ’’counter’’ pu, it can just burst him down when the dude isn’t watching his screen but intsead kitten and watching a serie while fighting you. I can’t imagine losing with a pu build against a shatter mesmer.

Cufufalating.8479:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Cufufalating.8479:

Well I still think the problem is the torch, not PU.

Thieves can stealth spam and also gain benifits form doing it (cleansing, healing, inititive) but people tolerate it because it can be countered by interupting BP+HS or evading CnD. Perma-stealth thieves are annoying, and if they are out to just troll instead of fight then theres not much you can do, but for the most part there is coutnerplay to thieves.

Mesmers, on the other hand, stealth without warning or possibility to prevent it, and from any range (unlike CnD). That is the problem. If Prestige worked like the rangers LB stealth or thieves CnD, with a cast time/requirement to hit the target I think a lot of the frustration of fighting PU mesmers would disappear, because through good play you could actually do something to counter them.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder

10 second longer recharge granted that, but still pretty much used like a poor-mans stunbreaker by most thieves….and just used as “without warning or possibility to prevent” as torch stealths.

There nothing wrong with BP, just as theres nothing wrong with decoy. I am not saying all stealth everywhere must have a slow and obvious animation, I am just saying Presitage with its relative low CD and NO coutnerplay is too much.

Skills like SR or MI I think are great because they provide great benifit to the user but also have risks ascosiated with them (long cast time on MI, SR gives away the thief location and its possible to knock him out of it).

Skills like BP and Decoy are both fine because they are short stealths and are really panic buttons, there nothing wrong with that.

Viel is pretty weak, but its intended to be a group support utility so its not surprising or bad that its weak when only used for personal use.

As I already say, CnD is very dodgable (really it is, D/D thieves are the #1 easiest thief to fight when you have got the tactic down) and if it is missed/blocked/dodged it wastes a huge amout of inititive and usually forces a defensive utility out of the thief.

BP/HS is somewhat… questionable. I think we all know these thieves are trolly and a bit too much, but even then it does come at the cost of a lot of inititive and it is at least possible to interupt it (even if in practice its hard to execute).

Prestige, however, has no drawbackws. No counter play, no cost to the mesmer. Nothing. its just a free 4s stealth on a 24s CD (with traits, since this is the sort of mesmer we are discussing here) and IMO that is not right.

I am terribly confused of why you think there is anything different between BP or the Prestige????

Also not everyone runs Decoy…I mean I get what you’re saying about having some kind of counter-play but I mean you point seems to be badly biased because if you have a problem with one skill (prestige) why not dislike a similar skill (BP)?

Is it because its a weapon skill vs Utility? I mean it really makes no sense….

At the end of the day, I properly traited Thief has more benefit whilst in stealth than a PU mesmer.

And I play both, I would much rather have my thief traits on mesmer than PU when playing mesmer.

BlackDevil.9268:

Narsil.6579:

BlackDevil.9268

Try playing a GS focus sword shatter against PU builds you can thank me later, shatter isn’t about the survivability its about the raw damage, yes I understand it will become harder but you shouldn’t blame one trait as the culprit, I said once and I will say it again PU alone is like using chaos storm for 3 secs and getting 2 boons random, the only reason it procs so many is because of the 2 first tier traits ( Illusionary membrane and Metaphysical rejuvenation), but people forget that and attack the trait regardless, instead of suggesting ways to remove those or tweak them differently. Also shatter can do one thing PU cant : Instagib, unload insane damage in one go, i seen mesmers deal insane damage using shatter, PU is more of a phantasm type, it builds up the phantasms but cant instacrit anyone down, hence most classes if traited can just run away and return. Atm Dire P/D thieves are gonna start popping around perma stealth, even worse then the mesmer, even PU doesn’t save you from the onslaught of condis, ive started using shatter , or phant hybrid builds now because PU has one fatal flaw, true active condition clear..

Also shatter can counter PU really well if played right and so can phantasm, ive done tests and fought other mesmers, shatter has faster phant and clone regeneration, phant builds can stack phants on the target and still have condi clear at most.

Any mesmer build can work 1v1 on anyone, 1vx is a different story, too much sustain from dire thieves, perplexity thieves, bunker condi rangers, zerk axe gs warriors , cc warriors, perma retal regen bunker guiardians, I can go on.

I have played, and actually am playing shatter in roaming and still find it not satisfying. Too many times that I can’t win the fight (Due too many enemies or too tanky enemies) whereas I die or I have to use at least 2 stealths to escape.
Heres a video of me shatter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k2iPuP8QrY
Yes it’s against total brainfarts, but I guess worth a watch if you’re interested.
If you have tips, I’m pleased to hear.

Then again I’ve played shatter only in raids, which is totally different from roaming. I don’t find shatter really much harder in roaming than my PU build if you compare 1v2 shatter specced with a 1v3 pu fight.

Shatter is viable till you face good players. You wont be so easy to escape against someone with a good build with lots of mobility and some knowledge when to use his blocks/immunities.

With the upcomming vigor nerf you can see a pretty big survivability nerf for almost all builds of mesmer. I don’t really think shatter can handle that in roaming.

For what a max dps spec should be, I find the damage also very unsatisfying. PU mesmer in full zerker can do the same damage solo target and still have more survivability. The only way I see shatter being good is when you can get 2 enemies together and pull off a hard hitting shatter combo on them both. Sadly, this barely happens and if you fight with a focus I can imagine the lack of stealth to escape, damage to kill or condition removal to survive.

Also what you said about that pu mesmers can’t burst someone down in a few seconds? Well I gotta be honest with you, the combo I usually pull off at start can usually bring down the same noobs you 1 shot with shatter in the same time, which is with a pu build. Like I said before, PU builds got the same dps kittenter builds got. You rely on hard hitting 10 seconds cooldown skills, I rely on all sources of damage. Why? Because I have probably twice as much sustain as you do, while my damage isn’t twice as low.

This is also why you will probably not win from equal skilled p/d thieves. You wont be able to 1 shot them, while it’s really easy for them to keep up damage.

Well, shatter can’t really ’’counter’’ pu, it can just burst him down when the dude isn’t watching his screen but intsead kitten and watching a serie while fighting you. I can’t imagine losing with a pu build against a shatter mesmer.

Glad to see you moved on and acknowledged what PU really is ^^

@ hihey
I’ve always acknowledged what pu really is and I don’t mind running it in roaming.
Why? Because roaming is not about running ’’fair’’ builds that have multiple counters for enemies so you can make it easy for people who don’t run ’’fair’’ builds to kill you.
Roaming is about who’s the winner in the end, the enemy or you. No matter which build you run, no matter how many stacks you got, its about who wins from who. I hate dieing in roaming and I’m sure many others do. Those who wanna be ’’good’’ in roaming are almost bound to run the best possible build in game, which is PU for roaming.
This is the same as chosing between a 25 man raid with 60% front line or a raid with 20% front line. Exactly, people will go for the 60% because that’s how it works the best. You don’t go crumble off the meta gameplay, because you might just lose to less skilled people with better builds. You can call them lame, but they don’t give a kitten. They killed you, so they are satisfied.

This is the same for roaming what I described above. You don’t go ‘’oh you killed me with that build so lameee’‘, no you go ’’kitten yeah winning 1v3+ like a baws’’. I personally get as much fun out of PU as with shatter. The main reason to that is that I can’t win every fight with shatter, which I probably could with pu so i have to run off, but the 1v1’s and 1v2’s are more fun to fight. So it’s a win-lose situation for both builds.

BlackDevil.9268:

@ hihey
I’ve always acknowledged what pu really is and I don’t mind running it in roaming.
Why? Because roaming is not about running ’’fair’’ builds that have multiple counters for enemies so you can make it easy for people who don’t run ’’fair’’ builds to kill you.
Roaming is about who’s the winner in the end, the enemy or you. No matter which build you run, no matter how many stacks you got, its about who wins from who. I hate dieing in roaming and I’m sure many others do. Those who wanna be ’’good’’ in roaming are almost bound to run the best possible build in game, which is PU for roaming.
This is the same as chosing between a 25 man raid with 60% front line or a raid with 20% front line. Exactly, people will go for the 60% because that’s how it works the best. You don’t go crumble off the meta gameplay, because you might just lose to less skilled people with better builds. You can call them lame, but they don’t give a kitten. They killed you, so they are satisfied.

This is the same for roaming what I described above. You don’t go ‘’oh you killed me with that build so lameee’‘, no you go ’’kitten yeah winning 1v3+ like a baws’’. I personally get as much fun out of PU as with shatter. The main reason to that is that I can’t win every fight with shatter, which I probably could with pu so i have to run off, but the 1v1’s and 1v2’s are more fun to fight. So it’s a win-lose situation for both builds.

Yeah I feel the same way…if some random elite guy wants to run a garbage build because it “ups the skill level” more power to them bro.

I make my build to win fights, just like the thief that runs: Hidden Killer, Shadow’s Rejuvenation, Cloaked in Shadow and/or Shadow’s Embrace….Most of the thieves I fight run all of these traits…Does it make them OP? Or does it make them smart for putting together a trait lineup that works well?

Like I said before (or in another post IDK), I would much rather have my thief’s traits on my Mesmer and not have PU….

What BlackDevil said, PU power builds have almost the same burst kittenter (as some people think you need to build up for phantasms to do damage or run a torch offhand…).

Also to note is while traiting chaos line you get +300 toughness and 30% boonduration while illusions give shatter recharge rate and condidamage, which means you can run a fairly tanky build with as much offensive stats as a shatter. TBH the only thing I really miss when running a PU build is the on demand distortion when using shatters.

In GvGs a PU mesmer is better at surviving other hitman squads and applies the same if not better pressure to backline classes than a shatter. In WvW raids your job is mostly to just veil and maybe timewarp (which then gets applied to your support/tank class roles and is completely wasted).

I run both shatter and pu builds while playing wvw (be it roaming, raiding or gvg), having fun with both specs but pu is just overall better spec to roam with.