Guild Wars 2

As promised from this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-A-Matter-of-Perspective

Disclaimer: I have realized that my posts maybe perceived as cryptic, condescending and perhaps not valuable to the Mesmer community. I have never proclaimed myself a master Mesmer and neither do I have a contingency of followers who will defend my viewpoint. So I’m just going to mention this …I do have my biases but I’m open to debate and I appreciate and respect all of your opinions even if it differs from mine. I don’t like judging others posts based on subjective personal aversion to their point of view… So all I can ask is: weigh the content of what I say and what it means to the topic at hand and let us have a lively discussion.

If you’re an analytical type of person who requires diagrams, statistics and/or videos to prove a point or define relevance…this may not be a post for you. If you a conceptually minded and prefer to think about ideas and debate about how methods are applied abstractly please continue reading and perhaps enjoy my post.

Goal:
The goal of this post is to open dialogue on the future of the Mesmer profession. What I seek to challenge is what the Mesmer community believes today as being meaningful knowledge and or skill. Should we equate traits/builds as skill? Something that was given to us by ANET as a known variable in all Mesmer game-play and then all of a sudden we put a fancy name to it and now it’s “my build” I’m gifting to the Mesmer community…Really!?I think it is about time we change the paradigm of what we call skill or knowledge for Mesmer’s new and old.

Part 1: A Call for Standardization:

Why I call this the Mesmer "Theory of Everything”?
The Mesmer profession has evolved to the point of build saturation no matter what gimmicky name you call your build. “Your build” will fall under two main branches of delivering damage: Direct and/or Peripheral Condition Damage. The challenge to Mesmer’s new and old today is to standardize our roll in combat situations and to drive the sense of utility within each build/trait set up.

Simply… Stop just naming gimmicks but instead inform the community on how you apply your build and what profession is the most susceptible to your style of play additional what professions have hard countered your play style. We need to start fostering an environment that promotes innovation outside of just traits/builds… Traits/builds can be changed at a whim by the developers but how we play the game and how we employ our strategies to own other professions daily will always be in our control to innovate and pass on.

Example of what I’m talking about with my current build:

Play style: Conditions
Weapons: Scepter/Pistol
Engagement: Ambush Mid/End
Cons: Slow Starter, Vulnerable to early pressure by the following classes (burst Thieves and Burst and Condi. Warriors and Condi. Engineers/Necros)
Weak against other condition builds and movement impairing CC.
Pros: High Survivability against Ranged, Hybrid and Non-burst builds, Lot of room to control opponent, burst is not an immediate obvious threat and great at assisting in teams.
Strategy: and so on…

Is this example going to be followed… Highly unlikely but it should be the mindset we should adopt when talking about how we play our Mesmer. Whether you deem it a style, art, or a ubiquitous “build” it should belong to the community that will be able to take it further than you have. Our Mesmer legacy is in how you play it not the build!!!

Part 2
Traits:
I had a section here but an awesome post does it better justice:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Some-Trait-Suggestions-Issues

On the Topic of traits and builds if any of you have read my previous posts you may have realized that the way I play Mesmer is biased toward Peripheral damage. “Peripheral damage” is a term I use to describe the primary medium in which I deal damage and that is through the continuous application of conditions and the retaliation boon. Direct Damage builds are normally your (Shatter & Phantasm) builds. My opinions on these 2 types are as such and I admit to you all now I’m biased intentionally to spur debate.

Direct Damage:

Phantasm Builds: Beginner
Shatter Builds: Intermediate
Mantra/Power Builds: Advanced

Peripheral Damage:
Conditions Builds: Advanced
Mantra/Interrupt Builds: Advanced

Now I’m sure at this point a number of you are heated because of my opinion which is fair… The ones that are advanced are what people like to call “un-viable”. This term gets thrown around casually out of ignorance… So many times I’ve heard that Scepter as unviable for Mesmer…Now look at how many people are using it…

So let me explain:

1. GW2 as it stands today favors direct and on-demand DPS as a primary tactic regardless of skill level. It allows everyone to feel like they are making contributions by seeing numbers fly. The difference between 100bs War a BS thief and a shatter Mesmer is after such a telegraphed burst who’s profession has more abilities and utilities to not only avoid damage but to set-up another chain of burst damage? It is this difference that most classes believe Thieves and Mesmers are OP because we can reset the pacing of battle to our advantage with stealth.

2. High Damage is also your defense. Taking 1/3 of your max hp in the first 5 second of combat will put any recipient on the defensive. Cessation or negation of aggression action by an opponent is a form of defense. This allows the attacker to have more openings to exploit because they now control the pace of combat allow more opportunities to land their high burst.
3. General Skill level of opponents. In GW2, Skill=Awareness more accurately “Situational Awareness”. Situation awareness allows a player to plan ahead and adapt to combat changes more adeptly. A player’s ability to handle situations and avoid being downed before their opponents is only a testament to their level of situational awareness. As it stands the application of power/high dps is ubiquitous in taking down an opponent. Highly skilled players can still be taken down when hit with arbitrary damage and if you don’t agree let me ask you this: How many times have you been almost downed/downed by the random flailing of an enemy who obliviously kills clones until you pop out of stealth downed? Especially when you have killed a couple of his buddies already and he’s just lucky you didn’t have healing off CD…

These 3 points I make is why my opinion stands that direct damage builds are beginner/intermediate but hold your anger at my opinion…Look at every game mode even with the recent conditions meta and tell me that direct damage has reigned supreme for almost a year?

Pre-Combat Preparation:

How do you enter combat? Do you worry about the profession you have targeted? Do you approach more aggressively or wait until there is an opening to exploit? Do you ambush or LoS enemies using obstacles and terrain?
These are the questions that run through my mind when I engage and enemy. Am I an exceptional Mesmer that never loses? Of course not! But what I am is a Mesmer who is knowledgeable about what he is getting himself into and positioning himself for the most option within combat.
One of my combat rules when roaming as a Mesmer: is to always have my back face deep water or water that exceeds 1200 or preferable 1500 range.
Remember Mesmer’s we are a profession that fights extremely well in 2 dimensions on land and underwater. If I cannot best an opponent on land I take them under water and they retreat or die most players are not good underwater so practice under water combat. Only 2 class really threaten mesmers underwater and that is condition engineers and condition rangers (pet revive).

Combat Positioning/ Pacing
Honestly, this particular section is hard to put into words while trying to be concise. Mesmer by design is supposed to put the decision making process action or no action of our enemy into our hands. This is ridiculously hard to balance for one and the other is that it is hard for most people who play Mesmer to grasp the totality of what that means on the battle field. So to expand on the 3 points above and why I have classified certain builds as Beginner/Intermediate or Advanced but I’m leaving it the the Mesmer community to define that because I am no “Master” Mesmer by a long shot.

Conclusion:

We as a community have become too sensitive and emotional to the changes the developers make to the Mesmer profession because of the emotional investment in the builds people create. Listen I understand there are some changes that are downright uncomfortable and jarring but I’ve learned to adapt and surprise players that thought they have seen it all from the Mesmer profession. We have to acknowledge that Mesmer has it strengths and weakness against other professions and make that an acceptable part of conversations instead of crying for buffs accepting changes only as nerfs. This does not mean we can’t critique the Mesmer but our voice needs to be unified as a community as to what changes need to be made for the advancement of our profession. We need to be educated about our profession by standardizing our roles and how we are used in game. I honestly believe once this happens the Mesmer forums and community will be on a new level of skill that other professions can only imagine and will continue to cry about.

If you have made it this far thank you. It took about a month to write and I was not comfortable posting this… only because I had to get it off my chest primarily(Craziness lol) and appreciation of this profession and what we as a community bring to GW2.

Bravo! That was a really good read I think you are right my good sir.

PS: Thumbs up for correct use of the word ubiquitos ^^

Thank you, there are many grammatical mistakes… but I am happy you enjoyed it because I enjoyed writing it

I think you make a really good point by stating that our gear/traits are not what makes us individuals or unique cause any build these days is gonna be a variant or close to something someone else is also using, now is your build his build with variations or vice versa. What should make us individuals is how we manage ourselves in fights, what strategic thoughts we think beforehand etc.

Play style: Conditions
Weapons: Scepter/Pistol
Engagement: Ambush Mid/End
Cons: Slow Starter, Vulnerable to early pressure by the following classes (burst Thieves and Burst and Condi. Warriors and Condi. Engineers/Necros)
Weak against other condition builds and movement impairing CC.
Pros: High Survivability against Ranged, Hybrid and Non-burst builds, Lot of room to control opponent, burst is not an immediate obvious threat and great at assisting in teams.
Strategy: and so on…

I really like this format

A generally decent post. I would tend to refrain from classifying build types with difficulty levels. Not only are your difficulty levels rather odd, they also are completely meaningless.

He did say he was being intentionally biased when classifying difficulty between the different build types to encourage or, shall we say anger, for the sake of debate.

Some good concepts and ideas here.

I think you’re right that some people rush to post builds almost like they’re trying to trademark it.. but I think most people are simply trying to introduce a new concept or are looking for feedback on their setup. The frivolous names are just for fun.

I definitely agree that no build really belongs to anyone; if me and you both use the exact same setup and I happen to post it on the forums then in no way does the build auddenly become “my” build and you’re just copying. That being said, a lot of good theorycrafters post their builds because theyve stusied and explored the con ept and are open to helping others and answering questions. At the end of the day, the build “belongs” to whoever is playing it.

I also feel that there are no “master” Mesmers. Everyone is still continuously learning more and hell.. new skills/traits are on the way anyways.

(Btw I really dig that format, will be using it in the future)

Lahel.6381:

He did say he was being intentionally biased when classifying difficulty between the different build types to encourage or, shall we say anger, for the sake of debate.

Which is my point, there is 0 reason to do that.

why not? debating stuff is good oO

Lahel.6381:

why not? debating stuff is good oO

Sure, but I’m rather confused as to what sort of discussion was intended by simply classifying the builds in an inflammatory manner. Nothing useful would come out of that.

@ Pyro… “Meaningless” is a YOUR biased conclusion. In this case have created a point of conjecture because you are basing your bias on MY opinion. An opinion of which was formed on MY personal experience as a Mesmer and what that entails is an unknown to you. (Unless your NSA lol) So you conclude based on your incomplete knowledge of how and what I have experienced playing Mesmer as meaningless…

Kudos to you! So in anticipation of that, I made this thread very easy for you and I asked kindly to spur on debate because I took a biased stance…So again, if you read my post, please debate me on the points I made.

I’m just going to leave this here because I honestly respect you Pyro… I don’t know why it has gotten to this or how but I will leave this quote because everyone who contributes to the Mesmer community has the right to say their peace and spur healthy debate:

A good leader can engage in a debate frankly and thoroughly, knowing that at the end he and the other side must be closer, and thus emerge stronger. You don’t have that idea when you are arrogant, superficial, and uninformed.
-Nelson Mandela

@Revelations: My statement was made with no regard to your experience as a Mesmer. The opinions you stated would be meaningless no matter who made them.

What is difficulty? Playing against a blind/interrupt spam thief is much more difficult as a phantasm Mesmer than as a shatter or clone death Mesmer. Where is the difference between difficult to play and simply worse? Mantra power builds aren’t difficult, they’re just bad, similar situation with most interrupt builds. Sure, they’re more difficult to play effectively, but that difficulty is artificial, arising from a build that is simply objectively not viable.

I would never attempt to classify builds by difficulty because that simple classification is meaningless

Excellent, this is what I expected when creating this thread.

Let’s start with your question:

“What is difficulty?”
Difficulty to me in this game equates inexperience How many times have we as a community called something unviable without exploring the possible realms of where it could be so called viable. Why ruin and limit the playground of innovation when we can just say that there are limitations to this build and as a concerted community discuss way it could be viable? What unknown future changes can devs makes that creates viability? These are pockets of innovation that can be discussed and innovated upon but it takes one persons opinion to create an environment that breeds stagnation and it takes one person to debunk that when given the opportunity to.

Where is the difference between difficult to play and simply worse?
This can be applied to all manners of game play for Mesmer.

Fay eloquently wrote about this very topic in a response to this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-A-Matter-of-Perspective/first#post2825288

Something that I will take into account in my future writings is your quote here as a caution:

“Sure, they’re more difficult to play effectively, but that difficulty is artificial, arising from a build that is simply objectively not viable.”

The term “not viable” is thrown too loosely because we can go and say that glamour builds are not viable and yet I see it in WvW all to often and people still get downed when played effectively.

Playing effectively may begin individually but it doesn’t end with the individual it is dimensional and it can be applied to group setting. Please when was the last post that talked exlusively about mesmer builds outside support that complement a team effort? When have we broken down by boon and conditions applied that made the mesmer unseemingly indispensable to their team?

Not through individualistic play but through synergistic play. How many times have people complained about the uselessness of vulnerability on staff when they should see that 1% damage helps your group more than it helps an individuals precious condition spec?

This is how I see Mesmer a wide ocean of Viability. Call me an idealist if you want but the Mesmer is a Profession of the mind and I intend to use to that fullest extent.

Pyroatheist.9031:

What is difficulty? Playing against a blind/interrupt spam thief is much more difficult as a phantasm Mesmer than as a shatter or clone death Mesmer. Where is the difference between difficult to play and simply worse? Mantra power builds aren’t difficult, they’re just bad, similar situation with most interrupt builds. Sure, they’re more difficult to play effectively, but that difficulty is artificial, arising from a build that is simply objectively not viable.

I would never attempt to classify builds by difficulty because that simple classification is meaningless

I assumed he was referring to how much work it takes to use a certain build rather than the tactics involved vs a specific class/boss. Phantasm builds are the easiest builds to run effectively for someone just coming into the Mesmer clkittenter builds aren’t necessarily difficult but it requires a better understanding of class mechanics and more active skill to payoff.

Though, I’d consider condition builds intermediate rather than advanced.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Though, I’d consider condition builds intermediate rather than advanced.

I don’t know about that last part, Chaos. Only because most of our conditions are random. (Presuming a Staff-heavy Condition-mesmer.) Bleed via Sharper Images, Confusion, and the Torment from Scepter are the only damaging Conditions we directly control.
Compare this to the Condition “heavy-hitters” (Engi and Necro), they easily toss and upkeep more Conditions. If one were to rate classes by Condition “difficulty,” we’d probably have a list like so:

[Assume increasing difficulty of running a “pure” Condi-spec.]

• Necro/Engi
• Ranger
• Thief
• Mesmer
• Warrior
• Elementalist
• Guardian

I’d probably swap Mes and Warr, if Warr’s using Perplexity. Buttload of Bleed/ranged Torment (that isn’t linked to a block)/easy access to Confusion. But, YMMV.

@ Chaos and Advent, Thanks for your contributions. I’ll wholeheartedly admit sometimes I have difficulty giving the full picture of what I’m thinking. That is why I posted this so that the Mesmer community could help me fill in the blanks and provide feedback or debate.

When I first started this path to condition Mesmer last year it was because people said it was not viable because of the random nature and short duration of our conditions. Of course those individuals were comparing us to classes that have pretty much full command over applying conditions. 2 things inspired me to begin changing my mindset on Mesmer:

1. A spectacular loss in a roaming duel to a Necro who had 110 per tick bleeds. I asked myself how high can this go?

2. Chaotic Transference this paired with Superior Rune of the Undead and finding out it stacked.

Once I go to full ascended rabid and my short duration burns with might stacks started to hit between 850-1000 dmg and my bleed ticking any where between 140-190 I knew I discovered a playstyle that would eventually become main stream and viable.

That it how I spend my time in GW2. Now I’m looking for ways to evolve not only that playstyle but others by opening a door that doesn’t stifle our Mesmer inventiveness. We as a community need to start standardizing our roles/builds in how we apply it to the field.

I look forward to giving my feedback in this post after some testing of course:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Lockdown-The-Underexplored-Playstyle

This thread is surprising in it’s revelations. I concur that the mesmer should not be held hostage to buffs or nerfs, to be at the whim of any slight change. Though when I say these patches should not worry us, I do not contend that we should ignore them. Yet, Why should we cry foul when a trait is changed, when in fact our playstyle, our philosophy, should be superior enough to use any change to our advantage.

Traits and utilities, gear and weapons – builds – , let them not be the be all and end all of mesmer!

We as players of the mesmer profession must focus also on a higher objectives – of learning and teaching tactics and skill, of rules of engagement, but above all, we should nuture the ability to think and plan on the spot, lest we become simple button pressers.

Should not a great fighter be able to wield even the most innocuous object lethally?

Should not a master tactician be able to bend any unforseen obstacle to their advantage?

Then let us not judge skill soley by how well we use another’s combination of utilities!

Atiar.5469:

This thread is surprising in it’s revelations. I concur that the mesmer should not be held hostage to buffs or nerfs, to be at the whim of any slight change. Though when I say these patches should not worry us, I do not contend that we should ignore them. Yet, Why should we cry foul when a trait is changed, when in fact our playstyle, our philosophy, should be superior enough to use any change to our advantage.

Traits and utilities, gear and weapons – builds – , let them not be the be all and end all of mesmer!

We as players of the mesmer profession must focus also on a higher objectives – of learning and teaching tactics and skill, of rules of engagement, but above all, we should nuture the ability to think and plan on the spot, lest we become simple button pressers.

Should not a great fighter be able to wield even the most innocuous object lethally?

Should not a master tactician be able to bend any unforseen obstacle to their advantage?

Then let us not judge skill soley by how well we use another’s combination of utilities!

Dunno why but halfway through that I started reading it in the voice of william wallace