Guild Wars 2

I’ve been seeing a lot of back and forth about what’s the “best” spec for Mesmer, or what’s the “strongest” weapon, ect. and I just thought I’d throw my two-cents in.

This game was advertised as a game that any type of player (hardcore or casual) could play in however style they’d like and still find enjoyment. Bringing these two types of players together will inevitably cause conflict, stigma, and misinformation. I’m going to use a few names for examples, so I apologize in advance if I accidentally offend anyone as that’s not my intent.

(Mind you, this is mostly for dungeons or open world pve. WvW and PvP are entirely different beasts.)

The “zerker-or-nothing” perspective…
“If you don’t go full Berzerker [in dungeons], then you’re bad.”

There is a very good reason people have this perspective, and no its not because they’re “close-minded elitist jerks.” By design, all you truly need to be successful in the majority of dungeons/Open World is the ability to properly dodge. For a Mesmer, proper dodging and reflect usage can trivialize almost everything PvE-oriented, thus you don’t really much in the terms of support (healing/boons) as long as you have the proper control (reflects/pulls/debilitating conditions).

Colsey has tested the iSwordsman phantasm to be our best phantasm for sustained DPS

colesy.8490:

Tested against dummies in Lion’s Arch (so no crits)
0/20/0/25/25
full berserker, partial ascended (amulet, accessory, rings)

iSwordsman – 2.1k
iDuelist – 2.4k
iWarden – 3.6k
iZerker – 2.7k (rounded up)

Swordsman was able to hit three times during the warden’s channel and during its recharge.

Duelist and Zerker had very little difference in recharge time.

Warden is a poor choice for DPS even with phantasmal haste.

Will reply in detail later, but those were my results. Will test more in open world so we can factor in crits.

And I believe that the build (Sword/Sword – Sword/Pistol) in his sig infact IS one of the best dungeon specs for Mesmer damage-wise.

However…

Now lets take proven super-talented Mesmer like Pyroathiest or Fay (Sorry to throw you guys into the fire, but defenestrating Pyro should be an Olympic sport.) According to this logic, though Pyro can easily cruise through dungeons in full sword/sword – pistol Berserker gear if he wants to, if he chooses not to then suddenly hes bad.

@Colesy: This is the flaw I was talking about earlier. You cannot judge a player’s talent by their build alone and its unfair to label them “bad” for not falling into your purview of ‘optimal’.

Speaking of which, I wanted to also take a second to explore the term “bad.” Many people look at player skill as either ‘good’ or ‘bad’ as if it’s black or white with no room for any gray areas. If you’ve got dungeons and NPC rotations committed to memory, but suck in sPvP then are you bad at the game? Conversely, great sPvPers can falter in WvW or in dungeons. If you have NO idea that the 1h sword is stronger than the Greatsword, but you can run through dungeons blindfolded, play fractals 40+ with your buttcheeks, and can command an army in WvW while simultaneously watching Dr. Who, then are you bad? IMO Everyone has strengths and weakness, and very few can simply be labeled “bad” for one particular reason.

People play the game for different reasons, and people even run dungeons for different reasons. Not everyone wants to speedrun, and they’re not “bad” at the game or lack skill for not wanting to do so.
I, personally, hate skipping mobs. I feel like a lame each time we’re stacking ontop of eachother or abusing some glitch to defeat a boss. But at the same time I’m not going to look down on someone else or judge them for doing so, because. If you payed money to play this game then you have a right to enjoy it however you like.
I don’t like to farm, I enjoy watching cut scenes (the artwork is incredible for some, especially Ascalonian Catacombs), and I enjoy exploring the level design. I’m not just a gamer but an artist and writer with ambitions to become a videogame designer among other things, so all these things are meaningful to me.

At the end of the day, it’s all a matter of perspective. If you want to speedrun, then go ahead and find people of like mind and do so. It doesn’t make you an elitist until you’re running around passing judgement on people who don’t play your way. If you wanna run a condition build, support build, or even a build that everyone says isn’t viable but is the most fun build you could come up with? Then do so. No one has a right to get in anyone else’s way of having fun.

Thoughts?

So… Tired X.X

Its almost 12pm, and i have to get up at 5am… Every day in the week. Like 5 mins ago i decided its pretty late, and went to sleep…
… After one more page refresh.

BAM! New thread by Chaos with a really interesting kittene!

Seriously, these are exactly my thoughts. They have always been, and today even more, with things like the GS mesmer thread appearing.

I decided not to post… I think? Because i kind of try to avoid negative moods nowadays… And “discussing a discussion no one will win because its a matter of perspective” is quite stressy x.x

Anyway, yea.

/quickly throws phone away and sleeps before more interesting things appear.

good points Chaos. I’m glad you spoke up. I had written up a preachy, supporting response, but I think your post is enough.

Yeah I pretty much said what I needed to say in this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/So-many-GS-mesmers-in-dungeons/first#post2814391

But I will elaborate here

That post sums up pretty much what you were saying. A major stickler in this whole thing has been the approach. It’s always black and white which as we all know, it just isn’t. You can’t just universally say “GS is trash in dungeons” when obviously we all know that isn’t true.

So much of these arguments are matters of opinion but that’s not how they are presented. If I have to play sw/sw, sw/f or pistol according to someone’s definition of “optimal”, I’ll gladly do that on occasion and have fun doing it but you betcha I’ll play other weapon sets and styles as well, likely more. You want to clear dungeons 2, 3, 4 minutes faster than a “non-optimal” group? Go right ahead. I’ll often take the longer route and see you at the finish line 3 minutes later. It’s your prerogative to play that way, it’s mine to play how I want and by no means does it make either of us bad players. We just enjoy the game differently.

It started with an initiative to convince everyone that GS is not a good weapon for dungeons. I admit at first I was incredulous but after the points made, I learned a lot. It gave me a perspective I didn’t have before. But now it’s being taken way to far, to this:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/So-many-GS-mesmers-in-dungeons/first#post2814140

Ok I get the point and can even agree on some things. But now we are leeches and awful for playing how we want? Gimme a break. That kind of comment is elitist, in my opinion.

I completely agree. At the highest level of game play you should do you best to play optimally(40+ Fractals, gWvW, tPvP, etc) but many people do not seek out this high level play and just want to play the game the way they like. If they use a GS who cares? Yes they do less DPS and all the other problems you could possibly point out but to them it doesn’t matter. If you hate them that much don’t play with casuals then and only play with your “perfect” team with your “perfect” builds.

I would also like to address that I am by no means saying going for highest damage and “optimal” builds is not fun, I for one am always striving to for that in my WvW build. Some players just simply don’t have the time, energy, or maybe even patience to learn the game at this deep of a level, and that’s okay.

Now lets take proven super-talented Mesmer like Pyroathiest or Fay (Sorry to throw you guys into the fire, but defenestrating Pyro should be an Olympic sport.) According to this logic, though Pyro can easily cruise through dungeons in full sword/sword – pistol Berserker gear if he wants to, if he chooses not to then suddenly hes bad.

Yes, if Pyro is choosing to use weaker weapons then that makes it so he is willingly choosing to be bad.

Someone’s reputation on here as an amazing mesmer doesn’t bother me in the slightest, if they’re doing something wrong then they’re doing something wrong.

Of course that’s just PvE. PvP is his domain so I don’t enforce my opinions there since I suck akitten but since I like to run dungeons until I can practically do them from muscle memory, I don’t care if someone with a better rep than me (note – basically everyone besides menace) plays differently if I know myself thakittens less efficient.

And for the record, I did TA fw/fw today after having not done it for months, was completely clueless about basically every encounter and … didn’t perform half bad. Sure, I died alot because I didn’t know wtf I was doing, but if I was to go through it again I would be a hell of a lot more clued up. Trial and error, it’s not a flaw in doing full melee.

For the record, I don’t use bad as an insult, I use it as an adjective when somebody is talking about something they’re unskilled or out of their depth in, for example the endless train of no-skills telling me greatsword DPS is good when it’s not.

god this forum censor sucks, that //it is does not mean im trying to say boobs :/

skcamow.3527:

<snip>

Generally if you sift through my frustrated vitriol you can find my main points.

I’m just sick of people telling me I’m wrong about things I’m not.

(Quick phone response)

That’s the problem. Bad means “unskilled.” So if Pyro suddenly decides not to go you’re route then hes suddenly less skilled than he was 10 minutes ago? (And I was using him as a reference as someone whos obviously not bad, not because of his popularity but because its been proven)

The problem with the whole “I’ll play how I want, it won’t hurt anyone in the long run” attitude is that the vast majority of players think this way too, or just don’t know any better.

Say the random pug you just joined is:

1) Longbow healshout warrior
2) Bearbow ranger
3) Cleric staff guardian
4) Flamethrower engie

That means that if you go DPS mesmer, you could be contributing as much as 70-80% of the entire party’s DPS, if not more. That also means that if you too decide to take it easy and run GS mesmer, that DPS disappears and your party is down to 20-30% of what you were doing originally. That means it could take, at minimum, 5x longer to complete a dungeon. COF1, which is the “speed run for easy gold and tokens” dungeon, normally takes about 8-12 minutes in a pug. Multiply that by 5 and it takes FORTY MINUTES TO AN HOUR. For COF1. Say you run Arah P2, which takes about an hour with an inexperienced pug (assuming you don’t just run ahead and solo everything). Five hours on Arah P2? Really?

The difference between you and the guy running AH hammer guardian who at least thinks in good faith that he’s doing a lot of damage is that you KNOW you’re not doing jack. And you’re still allowing everyone else in your party to suffer through a 5-hour Arah run just because you’re being lazy.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

(Quick phone response)

That’s the problem. Bad means “unskilled.” So if Pyro suddenly decides not to go you’re route then hes suddenly less skilled than he was 10 minutes ago? (And I was using him as a reference as someone whos obviously not bad, not because his reputation dictates but because its been proven)

Skill: The ability to do something well; expertise.

By not going full melee, he is choosing not to tackle the content “well”, therefore not being skillful about it, therefore being bad.

This is why I say players using weak weapons are choosing to be bad, because it means no matter how skillful they are at controlling their character, their overall efficiency will be lacking (i.e. not “doing it well”). To bring up my TA example where I took a bunch of dirt naps, there I was being bad, but I wasn’t being held back by my weapons. Once I learnt the content, if I were to run it again, I would be familiar with it all and I would be using the best gear so I would be doing it well, i.e. being skillful.

colesy.8490:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

(Quick phone response)

That’s the problem. Bad means “unskilled.” So if Pyro suddenly decides not to go you’re route then hes suddenly less skilled than he was 10 minutes ago? (And I was using him as a reference as someone whos obviously not bad, not because his reputation dictates but because its been proven)

Skill: The ability to do something well; expertise.

By not going full melee, he is choosing not to tackle the content “well”, therefore not being skillful about it, therefore being bad.

This is why I say players using weak weapons are choosing to be bad, because it means no matter how skillful they are at controlling their character, their overall efficiency will be lacking (i.e. not “doing it well”). To bring up my TA example where I took a bunch of dirt naps, there I was being bad, but I wasn’t being held back by my weapons. Once I learnt the content, if I were to run it again, I would be familiar with it all and I would be using the best gear so I would be doing it well, i.e. being skillful.

No. You constantly attack individuals on this forum, as if acting like a fifth grade bully is the way to make your point. Learn to argue, grow up a little, and come back.

If you want to make your point bring quantifiable facts, explain rotations. Evaluate and compare options. Persuade people that you are right.

edit: and this…

Tested against dummies in Lion’s Arch (so no crits)
0/20/0/25/25
full berserker, partial ascended (amulet, accessory, rings)
iSwordsman – 2.1k
iDuelist – 2.4k
iWarden – 3.6k
iZerker – 2.7k (rounded up)
Swordsman was able to hit three times during the warden’s channel and during its recharge.
Duelist and Zerker had very little difference in recharge time.
Warden is a poor choice for DPS even with phantasmal haste.
Will reply in detail later, but those were my results. Will test more in open world so we can factor in crits.

Only gets you halfway there. A better way may be to compare how much damage is dealt over a period of time.

quantifiable facts, explain rotations. Evaluate and compare options. Persuade people that you are right

I gave figures for swordsman, duelist, berserker and warden DPS (w/o crits). I briefly tested warlock (since pyroatheist stated he got huge numbers with it) and found out on a stacked boss it does very high DPS (If I recall it was something like 10k vs 8k from duelist). I’ve explained the phantasm rotation if you actually read the link in my signature. I’ve evaluated the weapons, it’s just they don’t take long to evaluate.

I persuade people I am right by being forceful, because being a pushover makes you ignored, and since my views are practically heresy on this forum I need to be forceful enough to make people second guess their views, and even test things out themselves. I would run more tests but I have pretty infrequent computer access at the moment so I prefer to spend most of the time I do have by having fun speed running dungeons, not camping on excel and trying to answer random scrubs on a forum.

If you don’t like my post style, then well maybe people should stop being play how you want carebears, and actually be useful to their dungeon parties so I wouldn’t have to tear them in half for being incompetent.

colesy.8490:

quantifiable facts, explain rotations. Evaluate and compare options. Persuade people that you are right

I gave figures for swordsman, duelist, berserker and warden DPS (w/o crits). I briefly tested warlock (since pyroatheist stated he got huge numbers with it) and found out on a stacked boss it does very high DPS (If I recall it was something like 10k vs 8k from duelist). I’ve explained the phantasm rotation if you actually read the link in my signature. I’ve evaluated the weapons, it’s just they don’t take long to evaluate.

I persuade people I am right by being forceful, because being a pushover makes you ignored, and since my views are practically heresy on this forum I need to be forceful enough to make people second guess their views, and even test things out themselves. I would run more tests but I have pretty infrequent computer access at the moment so I prefer to spend most of the time I do have by having fun speed running dungeons.

If you don’t like my post style, then well maybe people should stop being play how you want carebears, and actually be useful to their dungeon parties so I wouldn’t have to tear them in half for being incompetent.

But so were Chaos’s when he first introduced the boon support build. As I just posted on the other thread. I think you’re probably really on to something (I also said you were smart). But the posts are unpleasant to read. Which turns me off and raises my hackles. I find that when I’m discussing something one the forum, my audience isn’t usually the person I’m responding to, it’s everyone else who reads this.

Edit 2: (because I missed the random scrubs remark). Nice.

Those figures are entirely inaccurate. With a pug group, dmg isn’t even the main problem… It is surviving the encounters… Most of that time is dying, which at MAXIMUM of EVERY DUNGEON, except Arah (Never done Arah) will take a MAXIMUM of 3 hours and by that time is is because you devoted your time, got a group to finish it with and your old one left you already. A dungeon in this game will never take longer than 45 minutes unless you’re group simply can NOT do it for whatever reason, and 4/5 times, it is not damage.

I have no idea what you just said.

Overlord.7394:

Those figures are entirely inaccurate. With a pug group, dmg isn’t even the main problem… It is surviving the encounters… Most of that time is dying, which at MAXIMUM of EVERY DUNGEON, except Arah (Never done Arah) will take a MAXIMUM of 3 hours and by that time is is because you devoted your time, got a group to finish it with and your old one left you already. A dungeon in this game will never take longer than 45 minutes unless you’re group simply can NOT do it for whatever reason, and 4/5 times, it is not damage.

Lack of damage is what makes people wipe. That or just not knowing tells. You think all the so-called “pro” speedrun guilds are amazing at the game or something? They just LOS mobs to corners and burst them. Most of the time, when I die in a pug, it’s because people AREN’T stacking for melee and there’s not enough blind/block/reflect to cover us for the entire fight.

Dude… Some players are not skilled enough to use straight berserker’s… Plain and simple. To say that a group of say, 5 warriors with full zerk gear and “meta builds” or whatever would not be more efficient than some group of friends getting together to just do a dungeon and have fun is, well, just plain ignorance really… But, not everybody CAN or wants to do that, and to deny a player a PUG group for it, that is fine really, it is your group and if you want to wait longer for that player then speed run the dungeon after we have already taken what we got and got through it, fine, I don’t really care… but for God’s sake, save that zerk or nothin motto crap for your own group, don’t go preach that to a group that isn’t yours…

colesy.8490:

quantifiable facts, explain rotations. Evaluate and compare options. Persuade people that you are right

I gave figures for swordsman, duelist, berserker and warden DPS (w/o crits). I briefly tested warlock (since pyroatheist stated he got huge numbers with it) and found out on a stacked boss it does very high DPS (If I recall it was something like 10k vs 8k from duelist). I’ve explained the phantasm rotation if you actually read the link in my signature. I’ve evaluated the weapons, it’s just they don’t take long to evaluate.

I persuade people I am right by being forceful, because being a pushover makes you ignored, and since my views are practically heresy on this forum I need to be forceful enough to make people second guess their views, and even test things out themselves. I would run more tests but I have pretty infrequent computer access at the moment so I prefer to spend most of the time I do have by having fun speed running dungeons, not camping on excel and trying to answer random scrubs on a forum.

If you don’t like my post style, then well maybe people should stop being play how you want carebears, and actually be useful to their dungeon parties so I wouldn’t have to tear them in half for being incompetent.

To be fair, he does have a point. In reality, being “forceful” (to use the euphemism you used) is generally not considered to be a persuasive tactic. It just isn’t. If people agree with you, it’s not because you were forceful, but because they were rational enough to look passed it. Rarely does being forceful result in an increase in argumentative efficiency. If you used the logic you use to support efficiency in dungeons you would realize that being forceful for your arguments is like using a GS in dungeons. Sure you can do it, but you are not being optimal.

The most effective way to be persuasive is generally to find a sensitivity in the person’s frame of mind and tailoring your argumentative style to appeal to that frame of mind. Which of course requires some observational data about the person’s personality. But online this is very difficult; therefore it is best to default to a more effective method of teaching (since teaching, and arguing, are virtually indistinguishable) by leaving your arguments emotionally neutral. If I were Palpatine, I would say that I could “bathe in your hate” or whatever it is that the dude says about anger.

For example. Your arguments would be more effective if you took away the kittenishness, and instead mentioned (since your opponents are the “play how you want” audience) thakittenis a matter of respect and decency. That is, mention to them something like "When you play with other people, you forfeit the right to be entirely selfish, therefore, you are under SOME obligation to forego the “play how you want” playstyle (unless otherwise noted by the other people) to optimize your playstyle, for their sake. To do otherwise, is to waste their time. It is common courtesy."

That being said, it is obvious that people should play however they want, because they do have SOME semblance of autonomy and are going to do so regardless of what people say. But due to the factor of social interaction, sometimes it is simply a sign of character for a person to sacrifice that desire, for the sake of the group.

P.S: Also, thanks for the test results. I’m a sw/sw fan myself. That is, till Mesmers get mh pistols!

P.P.S: You HAVE to love Anet’s choice of censor words. Laughed out loud with it.

Having the most ‘dps’ does not equal best. End of it. Period. But guess colesy will never see it.

The swords man, may take agro, and be killed after the first hit, (not doing any dps), while Warden, might block ranged attacks, survive because of it, reflect them back (trait), and do aoe damage (Iswordsman isn’t aoe). Is it best dp’s choise? nope it isn’t. But skill nr4 also comes into play. It has an incredible amount of uses, while sword 4 is a bit single purpose (but definitely not bad). Using the warden wisely instead of brainless spamming swordsman, i know wich player i’ll choose.

And what weapon i Use depends on my mood. Sometimes i just take staff because i’m in the mood for it. Using one weapon all time is boring.

I use Greatsword a lot. Why? Cause it fits my playstyle? Cause i like it? Does that make me a bad player? I know i’m not the best, but i’m neither the worst. So i think the definition bad doesn’t apply here as i’m inbetween.

If we wanna play Philosphy with the word: ‘bad’, will what about this. Colesy is bad person cause he’s not smart enough to understand OP’s view of the matter. He’s not even mature enough to open his mind for it. So he’s bad, since he’s not as good as other people in this topic. Is this right? Of course it isn’t. But by Colesy’s tunnel vision it is Enjoy your own weird rants, colesy, just hope they don’t fire back onto you.

TL:DR Agree with op

I am with Chaos on this one.
I think we play this game for different reasons and in different ways.
Personally I detest speed runs. When doing dungeons I am always looking for people that are not interested in a speed run either.
I respect that other people do like the speed runs and I respect the time and work they put into finding the most effective build and setup.
I think it is impressive how fast a well coordinated group can blast through a dungeon.

For me a dungeon is something relaxing that I do every once in a while because I rather enjoy them.

Answer me this.

I don’t mind responding to the giant walls of text, but just tell me if you’ll even read my response.

Don’t ask me to be nice, because I won’t, just tell me if you want me to respond because I’m starting to feel like I’m just wasting my time when I see people in this thread regurgitating arguments I’ve already answered in other threads.

I agree about the fact that efficiency is nice and the such.

Plenty of people have already stated the “Play it the way you like” side, but the thing that has stood out to me the most is sure a build can have potential efficiency, but what if someone is just bluntly bad at using a certain build.

Like shatter builds, I am quite bad at using them because (for some odd reason) I get attached to my illusions. Also it feels really odd for me to press f1-f4.

Honestly imo you could make anything work in theory. Which since there is no way to truly and definitely say one weapon is better than the other this is all really just theory.

playin a build that doesn’t fit your playstyle (even if subpar) is ok. But in a dungeon you are not alone and you depend on the others to do their job as well as they depend on you doing yours. Sadly most of the times going all zerker/stacking/reflecting is the best way to do so. in my opinion it is ok if you do not play a cooky cutter build, as long as you can deliver a bunch of dps and maybe some blocks/reflects/blinds.

But the “i play how i want attitude” doe not give you the right to run a build in a dungeon that doesn’t deliver any of that. if you think it is ok to be a guardian in pvt camping on staff, a ranger using double bear longbow in 200 range or a mesmer that only uses gs and refuses to improve in going melee… there is plenty of solo content for you.

just imagine you would join a soccer team and when the match starts you pick up the ball run in circles for 90 minutes straight and scream repeatedly “Yolo i play how i want, screw you elitist soccer players”…

Alright, I must confess that I’m a very BAD player. I suck at flipping on TP (always lost money in the process) and I’m sure Trading Post and flipping to get gold is the main focus of the game. Nothing else matters.
/sarcasm

I think it is indeed a matter of perspective.

For some people, anything other than using the most optimal setup means you are doing it wrong, regardless of enjoyment. Others just do not care about their group performance. Yet more people care about their performance, but recognizes that it’s relatively pointless to optimize those final 5-10% of one’s overall setup, since the impact is extremely minor. Some people are completely new or ignorant, etc…. the list could be made long.

Personally I’m the type of player who try to optimize my playstyle that I enjoy, even if it’s 5 or 10% worse DPS. I won’t play something that hurts a group outright, but I will play something I enjoy and where I feel I can be helpful in. I think recognizing when you can or cannot afford to experiment is a great thing, because it too encourages you to learn the actual encounters.

In the end you tend to gravitate towards people with a likeminded playstyle, and that’s fine. A couple of posts up I saw a football-likening to this game, but it doesn’t work like that in a mmo like GW2. Just for fun, I think a more apt comparison in that theme is that some here argue that you should always win by as many goals as possible, while others are fine with just winning a good game. And some just like to play football.

(…That was genuinely funny, but I can’t believe I just got called a Carebear. )

…

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

The problem with the whole “I’ll play how I want, it won’t hurt anyone in the long run” attitude is that the vast majority of players think this way too, or just don’t know any better.

Say the random pug you just joined is:

1) Longbow healshout warrior
2) Bearbow ranger
3) Cleric staff guardian
4) Flamethrower engie

That means that if you go DPS mesmer, you could be contributing as much as 70-80% of the entire party’s DPS, if not more. That also means that if you too decide to take it easy and run GS mesmer, that DPS disappears and your party is down to 20-30% of what you were doing originally. That means it could take, at minimum, 5x longer to complete a dungeon. COF1, which is the “speed run for easy gold and tokens” dungeon, normally takes about 8-12 minutes in a pug. Multiply that by 5 and it takes FORTY MINUTES TO AN HOUR. For COF1. Say you run Arah P2, which takes about an hour with an inexperienced pug (assuming you don’t just run ahead and solo everything). Five hours on Arah P2? Really?

The difference between you and the guy running AH hammer guardian who at least thinks in good faith that he’s doing a lot of damage is that you KNOW you’re not doing jack. And you’re still allowing everyone else in your party to suffer through a 5-hour Arah run just because you’re being lazy.

The only time I’ve been in a 40 minute CoF run was when people didn’t know what they were doing (and well, yeah.. they were pretty bad.) And I’m pretty sure 5 hours in Arah is more a matter of wipes than that much of an extreme lack of damage. But that’s besides the point.

A setup like the one you described wouldn’t need any kind of additional support, and it’d be careless to do so (Unless you don’t have any gear you can swap to, in which case yer kinda screwed, but generally people who run builds like that aren’t planning for a swift speedrun anyways.) It depends on the group I’m with whether or not I’m running zerkers or not… but it really comes down to a flaw in Anet’s party design that needs to be addressed quickly; they need to implement a customizable LFG system. Maybe something that allows you to toggle the class/armor-type of the people you want to group with. That way zerkers can play with only other zerks if they want, people can put together whatever kind of class composition they want their team to be, and those that don’t give a hell can still group up.

@colesy.8490
But when you tell a person they’re bad, they’re not gonna think you mean “you’re using less effective setup for clearing bosses.” It implies something more like “You’re bad at Mesmer.”
Your TA scenario is a perfect example: You got washed up because you lacked the information/experience, but that has no reflection on your skill with the class.

Being forceful is different from being overbearing. Calling someone “bad” sounds unnecessarily judgemental and insulting… kind of counterproductive if you’re trying to educate them. It frustrates me because I know (or atleast, I’m fairly certain) that spreading information is exactly what you’re trying to do.

Among other things you’ve joined the guild, written a dungeon guide, and are willing to explain your findings to anyone who PMs you. You run tests and make sure of your information, you’ve got some good stuff to share, and I feel a lot of people really could learn from you… But when you when you come off so abrasively with “Anyone who does x is baaaad.” Without much clarification, how do you expect people to react?

Saying something like: “When it comes to dungeons, you only really need to go Melee. Sword auto gives more DPS than GS and sword and pistol phantasms will give greater DPS. Running sword in both sets is perfectly viable, infact optimal, for DPS. Greatsword is better for PvP/WvW.”

…will gather a lot more positive attention than

“Greatsword is a terrible weapon. Anyone who runs GS is bad and afraid to go to melee. Anyone who doesn’t go zerker is a badkid who thinks they’re contributing. I’m so tired of you baddies taking over the world.”

Like I said, with your experience I really do think you could enlighten a lot of people, and it’d be a shame to see that go to waste.

Something I enjoy doing when I see a mesmer in a dungeon party is ask them “What’s the best mesmer build?”. If they give me some build then they loose all credibility in my eyes. We aren’t a one trick pony, we specialize. Good mesmers will always adapt and adjust their traits, gear, and playstyle to execute whatever they’re doing with maximum efficiency. That being said, don’t forget that some “bad” mesmers are in fact good mesmers just being lazy. Don’t be too quick to judge

Chaos Archangel.5071:

By design, all you truly need to be successful in the majority of dungeons/Open World is the ability to properly dodge. [b]For a Mesmer, proper dodging and reflect usage can trivialize almost everything PvE-oriented, thus you don’t really

Its the opposite.
Dungeons champs makes vitality and thoughness useless….so why even bother?
At least zerker are useful stats.

Colsey has tested the iSwordsman phantasm to be our best phantasm for sustained DPS

bleeding not taken in account
Aslo dummies won t fight back

on phantasms:

Iswordman Facetanks stuff. at close range….there is no way to keep it alive, the attack is slow and after the evade it still remains too close.

I zerker is on the opposite one of the easiest….it sits out of most boss ranges and just engage for a fast attack staying Always at an optimal distance.

Iduelist can be placed in safe zones where they can be ignored for the Whole fight.

Iwarden is placed usualy out of frontal cone of attack of bosses,

Both iduelist than iwarden can be kept safer by minding your positioning and if needed with ileap.

Finally sword block that could be one of the most fun skills (4) won t work in fractal due to agony and in some dungeons due to unblockable stuff.

I m not biased at all since imho sword skins are the best in game and i would be more than glad to find a use in PvE for sw/sw….unfortunately the choice is Always between focus and pistol.

The same reason why he agreed with me to use IC is the main reason to not use sword OH

The sword is great against enemies with a single target nuke or high damage. The iSwordsman deals about the same DpS as the iDuellist (pistol) but has no combo finisher. However it can NOT be meatshielded (sniper). Forget about bleeding too a bit, since iSwordsman attacks 3 times when the iDuellist does 2 attacks. Also it’s not really true that the iSwordsman dies often cuz in close range… He’s safe most of the time … also he got a leap wich grants him buffs like chaos armor wich is devasting against attackers. And 8k HP isn’t nothing with chaos armor on

Iduelist is projectile finisher, stacks lot of bleed
Iwarden is swirl finisher (more bleed than swordman) as izerker.

For survivability did u actually tried each boss?
i did for all of my daily dungeon routine and more than one time

Chaos armor is useless in PvE (that is colesy point) if you say iswordman is great for www or pvp i will agree istantly.

You just talk about the secondary stuff. The main reasons to take sword / iS are the block, the 100% hit (no meatshield) and the fast attacks. In Orr for example its very useful to cast the iS. He will attack, then you do your 3, 2 and he already attacks again, mob down :P Just sayin ^^

Chaos armor is about the numbers you don’t see and not the numbers you see. Also it’s mainly on staff. Thats why colesy doesnt like it :P

And no I haven’t tried all the bosses, so I guess you are more expirienced than me in that case. However we can switch the sword with the pistol any time we want to. So I like the sword more agains heavy hitters (block) and the pistol more against anything else, especially when you need to interrupt them (5).

As I said – I use EVERY weapon … just torch seems too weak for pve

@Chaos Archangel * This game was advertised as a game that any type of player (hardcore or casual) could play in however style they’d like and still find enjoyment..

and (play how u like to play A-NET said, ``GUILDWARS``2 so i pay and and still waiting..

- what u mean with `hardcore` player? – who give much time on game.. or – who like to play for rank, best efficients.. that can fight in a competitive, fair athmospehere, alone or team oriented as a team/guild.. i dont ve disputation with other stlyes , but when i in with discussion with guild vs guild, team orientation fights in a competitive, fair matches.. topic goes to xpvp, pve, wvw, examples.. why i say gvg cuz it has some differ enviorenment rather than others..

my matters,

• dont ignore gvg.. we have atleast gvg unofficaly, guilds fair matches.. 15/20/25 vs `` with unoffical ranks
• would like to see discussions in their topic with some showable, understandable, logical proofs, or add that is your opinion
  example: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/GS-vs-Staff-for-WvW/2818713
• overall effectiveness.. is while u sacrifice something u should be fair on the other full/empty side of glass..

example: when i ask why can`t we add mesmers in gvg groups, this question doesnt go to solution.. cuz we ppl doesnt know much of gvg, or they already retired from game, or they inactive in forums.. so there are some things to be more balanced with kind of modes.. so it needed respect.. its not my mistake to play in sandbox guild matches, anet..

@ Chaos Archangel``Speaking of which, I wanted to also take a second to explore the term “bad.”``

• yes, good/bad needs specific introduction..

Example: if i say GS Spartial Surge vs Thief Shortbow damage per sec.. i can say sparial surge is bad.. with showing the math.. little math with above link.. it needs to as this.. somehow skills tooltips are wrong.. why ? hiding game mechanics? or slacker developers? so i go with steady weapong, recording checking…… however sometimes its is impossible..
example if i like to show GS effectiveness in team-oriented group vs same size team oriented match.. instead of giving math of co-efficent/time etc.. there are other conditions.. example.. where the most damage come from izerker.. how mony times it misses its hits cuz of random fields, wars, guardiam spamming 1 and izerker death without hitting.. is highly decrease effectiveness of gs where spatial has lower dps.. so i go thief for more effectiveness in dps.. where his shortbow #1 hit dps -%10 to…..+%315 more dps than Spatial surge.. while more/easy chance to hit with +2 enemys thakittens more close to maximmum percentage while spatial less effective hitting multiple targets.. etc etc..

so If i payed money to play this game then i have a right to enjoy it however i like.
so in my perceptive each classes should be balanced with their mechanics and roles.. as well in gvg.. and if i am complaining about something that think its unfair.. instead of u guys try to change topics to other aspects, without giving proof, dont complain about me for i disccussion things.. as i already hear that things.. so what i mean.. if dont like to play as this..
(sorry for my english)(and couldnt ve find much time to read all replies)

Thanks for the big compliment Chaos. (Large wall of text inbound:)

I’ve been a firm believer from the start to play what you enjoy. When I first gained the Dungeon Master title in the first month or so of the games release. Nobody was really doing speed runs because nobody knew the optimal tactics at the time and it was fun, discovering, learning, experiencing the content.

In fact I distinctly remember how Mesmers were the least liked profession in dungeons and people advertising groups stating ‘No Mesmers’ at the time this was because nobody knew much about Mesmers or how to play the class properly.

Like yourself I don’t like skipping mobs and cheesing fights constantly. To me this feels like ignoring the fight mechanics, ignoring the content there. It’s not fun to do in my opinion and although I can see some of these speed run strategies require a little bit of practice/skill I feel it requires more general experience and skill to do all the encounters properly without cheesing it.

Because at the end of the day, if you don’t skip or cheese all the encounters you actually get confronted with the mechanics of the game. The more mechanics you are experienced with countering the better your general knowledge and skill in the game will be.

This also goes for expanding your experience across game modes. After gaining a lot of experience with the dungeon and PvE content I dove into WvW and found a whole new level of experiences that I was unpracticed and inexperienced at. Suddenly I had to adjust my play-style, become better and learn new things.

It went even further when I then expanded into sPvP. I honestly am a firm believer that although being good at one game mode doesn’t automatically make you good at another. I certainly feel the lessons you learn in each will improve your overall ability in the game and as a Mesmer as a whole.

I often see people from each game mode make fun of the other. For example I see WvWers/sPvPers make derogatory comments about PvEers as if they’re bad but then if you place them into a dungeon they are 9 times out of 10 dreadful. Expanding your general knowledge can only improve your ability as a player.

Being tunnel visioned into one game mode, ignoring game mechanics by skipping things. This hampers your growth as a player. You hold yourself back by cheesing/ignoring things.

I even feel this way about things like SAB. People don’t like it, because it’s hard. But practicing in SAB tribulation mode improves your precision and timing overall. I think jumping puzzles in general have helped me improve as a Mesmer. Or with the Gauntlet having to fight a boss like Liadri. All these things add up to making you a better player.

So, to not run builds because they aren’t optimal cheese factories is only limiting your own ability and experience in the game. Sure it’s what some people enjoy but it’s actually only running a certain build and cheesing content that makes you overall a worse player than players who experiment and learn by expanding their experience and knowledge.

I know there’s this whole culture of speed running in gw2. Everyone’s eyes are on getting the most reward the fastest. For me it’s always been about the journey. Enjoying the road to the end, enjoying the now before it passes, enjoy the company of the people there and that’s why I rarely pug groups because you loose out of experience from skipping content as well as the social interaction with others that make the game more fun.

I truly wish more people would forgo speed running but it’s just general human nature to try to gain things the fastest, easiest. You can explain this to people as much as you like but people will do what they do and all you can really decide is what you do yourself and the people you do it with.

But if you really want to become better as a player as a Mesmer you will have to dive into all aspects of the game and try different builds extensively and always seek the hardest encounters. That is my advice to anyone wanting to improve anyway.

@ Colesy

I feel your pain… I’ve tried explaining things that I’ve discovered to the Mesmer community but if it is not rose hips and sugar coated… You becoming the embodiment of the MMO elitist archetype. I’ve almost completely stopped contributing to the Mesmer community because of it…but I’ll leave this quote here

“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”
? Aldous Huxley, Complete Essays 2, 1926-29

This no-name… Mesmer will post one last “gift” for the Mesmer community. It follows the same theme as Chaos ArchAngle’s thread and I was encouraged to see his view point generally accepted but it danced around something that the Mesmer community needs to hear bluntly…

So I have a feeling you will surely hate my post. It’s okay I’m used to that already…

@Azo: I had to reread that like .. 3 times, so forgive me if I miss some things but you’re right. GvG should be discussed more often, and the people that play it should create more threads to spread information/interest on it. Like anything else, someone just needs to start putting their foot forward and directing such conversations.

And yeah.. good/bad is relative. You can compare the Mesmer sword to the other Mesweapons and say its a strong weapon, but compare it to the Warrior GS and suddenly it seems pretty weak.

@Fay: +1 for that. I agree 100%, and its why I encourage people to post builds. Some people claim “there’s an oversaturation of bad builds” but I’m willing to bet those people are ignoring the fact that these ‘bad’ builds are people exploring new concepts and trying to expand Mesmer viability instead of simply rolling over and submitting to the “theres only 2 viable builds for each class” theory.
Sensotix and I just discovered how awesome lockdown/interrupt builds can be. Phloww started experimenting with Signets recently and inspired some people. Natsu dropped the awesome Blackwater condition build this month…. Its about exploring and trying new things. Not just looking at something and writing it off as “unviable” because it looks different from what you’re used to. And even if it isn’t optimal, if you try it with the mindset of attempting to improve it, most likely you’ll learn something.

@Revelations: You know, I’m happy you decided to post. Like Colsey, I think that you information to offer but it gets skewed in how you deliver your message. Its not about sugar-coating anything, its about not making people feel like you’re condescending or judging them. Again.. writing something like

“Scepter says ‘I find your ignorance amusing.’ Heres a cryptic hint about how to improve with it .. hehhheh. Any good mesmer will know what I mean.”

…Is of course gonna be met with some opposition.

Its not some popularity contest or about “talking heads” trying to indoctrinate people into falling under their beliefs. If you have something that’ll help people learn, its not cool to call them ignorant and then sprinkle some half-information to them. But it doesn’t mean that people hate you either. I understand that you like to keep your knowledge personal but you shouldn’t tease people with a small bit of info.

Once again I’ll use Pyro as an example. He doesn’t sugarcoat, (I mean hell, he pretty much verbally did this to Menace) he’ll be blunt, but honest and informative without insulting whoever he’s trying to enlighten. Don’t let one or two altercations with a few people make you withdraw and not post anything you could offer to others who would improve from your info, again that’d be a disappointing loss of knowledge.

Thing is, information about weapons, damage coefficients etc, that’s great to research and I don’t think anybody really minds posting info like that.

But as a poster, you’ve got to realize that everybody is fundamentally different. ‘Making people see’ just doesn’t work in a situation where there is no real definite answer, such as this one where each and every player comes to GW2 with their own agenda and playstyle etc. You can bring helpful advice, and I’ll be the first to say that I’ve seen a lot of useful information posted by several posters in this very thread (although not in it, necessarily ).

Trying to foist your own view/perspective on others just doesn’t work very well. Throughout my stay on these forums, I’d say that -inspiration- has been the factor that produced most of the new builds, the ways to use weapons etc in the posts here. This class is by far the class most impacted by the unknown in its mechanics/general play, so I kind of value this place as a resource, especially the constructive stuffs.

@ Chaos: “Scepter says ‘I find your ignorance amusing.’ Heres a cryptic hint about how to improve with it .. hehhheh. Any good mesmer will know what I mean.”

This statement I made in jest but the Mesmer community took it as a slight because it was the most unpopular weapon at the time and it came from a no-name Mesmer. I then retracted it and started a new but still there were people who defended and refuted Scepter as un-viable so… I withdrew because it has to be sugar coated unless you have popularity or a provocative title or content. Pyro can say whatever he wants at this point so it doesn’t matter what he said to someone else.

Chaos, believe or not you are well received in the Mesmer community I come off blunt because that is the way I write. I may come off condescending to some if you look for it but that is how I speak irl. A character fault maybe but it’s who I am…

But all in all the truth was realized with the Conditions meta… Vindication indeed… but the Mesmer community still needs to grow and innovate and a post like this is the very beginning to that drive forward…

Never have I received so many replies to a post that had a negative connotations to it “PSA:Scepter” it’s almost a defining moment in this community lol. People can hate me as long as there is a chance they’ll listen. Whether they take it or not won’t be realized today but eventually they’ll come to understand…

Overlord.7394:

Most of that time is dying, which at MAXIMUM of EVERY DUNGEON, except Arah (Never done Arah) will take a MAXIMUM of 3 hours

I did Arah a few days ago, with a totally suboptimal group, for kittens and giggles (because I like pain, sue me). 3 fresh 80 which didn’t know the dungeon and not full exo, including 2 staff guardian and a GS mes. Took a whopping 1h30 to run c3, with no wipe. So yeah, five time longer is a totally ridiculous claim from the sole basis of gear. Now, if you are with truly bad players, who don’t even know they have a dodge button (don’t laugh, I met some…), it’s another affair entirely.
I do think GS isn’t nearly as good as sword, but nowhere as kittenome here try to make it sound.

As for Colesy, I feel sorry for someone who has so much interesting things to say to be so incompetent at saying it (no hard feeling, just stating facts). “Being forceful to be heard” is a joke. Insulting players isn’t “just being forceful”, it antagonize people with no benefit.
Chaos is listened to. Pyro is listened too. Kylia is listened to. None of them come up in thread throwing random insults and broad generalisations. They just have interesting thing to say, and say it in an agreable manner. Learn from them, seriously. We all will gain from it.
And, please, for the love of Kormir, learn the difference between “suboptimal” and “bad”. Those words aren’t synonyms

Thats the thing though. It wasnt that you were being blunt, it wasnt that you were being blunt, it was that the cryptic way you wrote implied that you knew more helpful information about the scepter but choose to withhold it.

And I could tell that you were just being lighthearted, the same way I can see that colesy isnt some trollish doosh, but youve got people here from all over the world.. You never know how someone will percieve what you write, which is why its better to write with a neutral tone

Neutral Tone!? Haha! Chaos now surely you jest. I do not know of a Mesmer who consistently contributes to the Mesmer community that does so without conviction. It that very burden of experience that spurs you on laboriously to write the way you do to inform the community. There are some that may not like your ideas but may respect you enough to refrain from replying contrary to your beliefs. Then on the other hand there are people like myself and colesy that have our own styles of writing that makes that conviction so visceral and that it turns peoples stomachs but it is none the less a style of writing that incites and should inspire people. In an effort to join together and debate and discuss that is the essence of forums and what makes it worth your time to read.

Well I don’t mean not to be confident, passionate or convicted in what you’re saying. If you have the information to back up your claims, then by all means be steadfast in your belief. By neutral tone, I meant a way that wouldn’t make the person feel diminished or insubordinate for not knowing what you know.

“Real Mesmer will get what I’m saying”

“If you don’t do X and/or Y then you’re bad.”

Things like that can easily be perceived as unnecessarily judgmental.

Taking into account for the idea that has been stated GS is bad DPS therefore in PvE it is a ‘bad’ weapon, With the choice of taking it due to range benefits and the fact you are out of the melee ‘fray’ because the player isn’t confident and not accustomed it. Inevitably dieing a lot in melee and a dead player is no damage. Does that make them a bad player? Fair enough they have a weakness of not being confident in melee, but to make the conscious decision to stand back allows him to be effective, though maybe, not giving everything that is possible. To be honest in my group I would prefer someone to do 1000 dps over 2 minutes than 5000 dps over 10 seconds.

Not stating any preference of weapon or its quality, just wanted to state a thought process of a player in reasoning for choice of not having a min maxing weaponset. To me the thought of the player choosing to notice their own weakness and compensate makes them a lot better player than one that picks up the very best but cannot accommodate the difficulty when playing that.

Yet that still does not give me the right to call them bad. Only thing I can contribute to them is advice and hopefully learn something myself in the process.

Thank you for taking the time to read my opinion.

So I’m sitting here, having been awake for 38 hours straight

did anyone who made a post directed at me in this thread particularly wanted me to respond to it? and if so, pls link because I feel like a corpse atm and I’m too lazy to do a giant quote fest

-Raises hand-

Guys I’m new to the forum, wth is a kitten? It’s it like the GW1guru version of GO RED ENGINE? (for the f word)

I really liked OP’s point about good vs. bad. A good player choosing a bad weapon is still good if he performs. If you ever watch Dota 2, you see pros picking underpowered heroes and still abusing the s*** out of high level pubs.

Kitten is whenever the forum dictates that you are using a word it does not approve of. (Yes, the f word for one). And it translates at least a word (that you would not expect) into something rather amusing.

If you type in pvp*bank (without the star).
It displays as: " I AM A GOLD SPAMMER. PLEASE REPORT ME BY PRESSING THE REPORT FLAG ICON IN THE BOTTOM RIGHT OF THIS POST!"

colesy.8490:

skcamow.3527:

<snip>

Generally if you sift through my frustrated vitriol you can find my main points.

I’m just sick of people telling me I’m wrong about things I’m not.

Perhaps expressing less vitriol and employing better tact would result in less frustration.

Aroix.4135:

Taking into account for the idea that has been stated GS is bad DPS therefore in PvE it is a ‘bad’ weapon, With the choice of taking it due to range benefits and the fact you are out of the melee ‘fray’ because the player isn’t confident and not accustomed it. Inevitably dieing a lot in melee and a dead player is no damage. Does that make them a bad player? Fair enough they have a weakness of not being confident in melee, but to make the conscious decision to stand back allows him to be effective, though maybe, not giving everything that is possible. To be honest in my group I would prefer someone to do 1000 dps over 2 minutes than 5000 dps over 10 seconds.

Not stating any preference of weapon or its quality, just wanted to state a thought process of a player in reasoning for choice of not having a min maxing weaponset. To me the thought of the player choosing to notice their own weakness and compensate makes them a lot better player than one that picks up the very best but cannot accommodate the difficulty when playing that.

Yet that still does not give me the right to call them bad. Only thing I can contribute to them is advice and hopefully learn something myself in the process.

Thank you for taking the time to read my opinion.

Though technically, that’s someone recognizing that they’ve a lack of skill (or are bad in a certain aspect) and are trying to compensate.

That can be both good and bad. If you’re not good in Melee, but you know its better for your goals (damage) and instead choose to sit back with GS.. you’re never going to GET better at Melee. You may learn the boss’s tells better.. but the only way to actually improve on a weakness is to practice at it. And the hardest part about that is accepting that you’re going to suck a lot until your brain adapts.

While I agree that both sides have their merit I would usually side with the min/max meta group simply because of this:

Pushing for optimized play style shows that another playstyle is not optimal and therefore needs to be looked at and improved upon.

Look at this way GS members… you need a buff, or at least ranged gameplay needs a buff in light of the boon stacking melee meta.

Ultimately, we all get what we want in the end correct? Play the way we want and get mostly optimal results.