Guild Wars 2

Really? CnD into Steal is too hard? I have a very hard time believing that.

Edit: You can also trait it to automatically stealth you so there isn’t even a need to CnD.

Sunflowers.1729:

I don’t know what kind of thieves you’ve been fighting who don’t have a million different instant ways to get behind you to backstab.

Edit: As a Thief player myself stealth has very little counterplay. You forgot that the BP+HS combo blinds you with a projectile making landing CC extra difficult. And where’s the counterplay to our spammable teleports? Or instant get-out-of-any-trouble Shadowstep? There isn’t either. So….yeah.

And the counter to “Oh look he has Aegis and I’m blinded never mind I will just 1111111111111111”

I just need to run into the BP field to disrupt stealth stacking as the thief will hit me with HS and get revealed. Not to mention that auto attacking is also effective since the blind only pulses once every two seconds. Give me 2 seconds AA as a necro and see how much damage I do . Not to mention I can just cast locust swarm, run up and spam my marks/wells on the BP field. Locust will consume the blind easily.

And what do you think will happen when a guardian unleashes WW on a BP field? That is either a dead thief, or a thief that can’t stack stealth.

So…much…counterplay.

Next, the BS is exactly one packet of damage. As a mesmer, I have skills that block one attack and if I manage to catch that single BS on the block, the thief pays a heavy price. A mesmer’s burst consists of multiple damage packets and a single block isn’t going to negate it. Not to mention – once again – that it can happen from range.

And we’re not even going to get into the multiple stuns from CS are we?

You can run back into the BP and HS away from the enemy standing inside, to continue stacking stealth. Shouldn’t be too hard if you do it with the camera facing down. And really doing that is putting a big “BACKSTAB ME” sign on your head.

Also, if you block my Backstab, I pay the heavy price of….waiting 1 second and Backstabbing you again. While gaining might, removing conditions, taking less damage, and regaining initiative.

bhagwad.4281:

You can even chain Mass invis while your other stealth is about to run out and your opponent has no way of knowing.

That’s not entirely true.
The Prestige has a visible flame animation when it ends.
If the player doesn’t appear when that happens, you can be pretty sure they popped MI, or at least decoy (not if they’re smart, decoy’s cooldown is long enough that they should be keeping it for emergencies, or if they’re running away).
You can tell whether they popped The Prestige or Decoy because decoy pops a clone and The Prestige does aoe smoke/blind.
You can tell whether they popped Veil because veil.
You can tell whether they popped MI because it has a channel.
They can hide MI behind other stealth, they can sometimes prevent decoy from dropping a clone depending on the situation, but they can’t hide The Prestige.

bhagwad.4281:

A mesmer can burst from distance.

You and others have repeated this ad nauseum, and to my knowledge none of you have replied to the counterpoint that inevitably comes up:
Mesmer distance burst sucks, relatively speaking. You lose at least half your shatter damage, the rest of the shatter has the biggest tell in the entire game (3 fake mesmers running straight for you), Mirror Blade only hits once, etc.
I don’t mean to say they can’t do ranged damage, but it doesn’t rise remotely close to the level you’re complaining about.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Thief can top it with shortbow or pistol, tbh.

bhagwad.4281:

unlike thieves where everyone knows ways to disrupt the famous BP+HS combo. And even if they can’t, they know where the thief is for a few seconds while they stack stealth.

Stealth on steal + infiltrator’s arrow/shadowstep = a thief who could be anywhere.
Pop Hide in Shadows immediately and you’ve got more stealth time, and then you can pop other stealth to extend the space.
You want to bring up the best of mesmer stealth, you’ve gotta compare it to the best of Thief stealth too. Using uneven comparisons is disingenuous at best, intentionally deceptive at worst.

bhagwad.4281:

There is no class that has enough stunbreaks to keep up with our six chained stuns with CS and background mantra recharge. Moreover, stun from stealth does not even cause reveal! And apart from that, where is the question of dodging when you’re stunned?

Confounding Suggestions has an ICD of 5s, the most stun you can get out of MoD is what, 1.5s?
How are you getting chain stuns? Or do you just mean how frequently you can stun? Because it’s not like the target champ has no tricks up their sleeve either, and sometimes all they need is breathing room. I’m pretty sure that’s what he meant by applying pressure.

That said, if there’s anything that I think should be toned down in some way, it’s Confounding Suggestions.

Oh, I forgot:
Thieves take 25% less damage while in stealth as a minor trait, Mesmers don’t.
Even if we accepted that Mesmers have more access to instant stealth (not necessarily true, as I and others noted), thief stealth is safer vs aoe.

edit: and thieves can move faster in stealth.
And thieves get shadowstep on essentially no cooldown with shortbow…while in stealth.

bhagwad.4281:

There is no class that has enough stunbreaks to keep up with our six chained stuns with CS and background mantra recharge. Moreover, stun from stealth does not even cause reveal! And apart from that, where is the question of dodging when you’re stunned?

Stunbreaks, invulns etc are precious, few, and far between. They simply don’t keep up with the frequency of damage bursts and stuns available to mesmers post-patch.

And of course, our stealth has no counter. Stealth skills are insta cast and take no set up – unlike thieves where everyone knows ways to disrupt the famous BP+HS combo. And even if they can’t, they know where the thief is for a few seconds while they stack stealth.

Where is the setup for using “The Pledge”? Or “Decoy”? You can even chain Mass invis while your other stealth is about to run out and your opponent has no way of knowing.

Counterplay. The idea is to have counterplay. Thief stealth has counterplay. Mesmer stealth does not. Thief burst also has a lot more counterplay than mesmer burst – at least you know the thief has got to be close to you to Backstab. A mesmer can burst from distance. After stunning of course.

You know “stability” boon (cowered with other boons or just pulsing)?

Mesmer’s instant stealth skills:
1. Decoy (can be done when stunned)
2. The prestige (can not be done when stunned, need torch)

Thieves instant stealth skill:
1. Blinding powder (can be done when stunned),
2. Hidden thief trait (can be done when stunned, need trait ofc)

Both can cast stealth skills with cast time or combos from stealth.
Mesmer bursts works at melee or almost melee range. Mesmer can initiate burst from distance. Thief can too.

Do not playing with cs right now. Have no big problems vs cs shatter neither on mesmer, nor thief. Idk, mb hadn’t meet good cs shatters. I eat most part of stealthed combo burst, but usually manage to escape and burst back.
Though cs is banned now on angz server, didn’t notice big problems with it when it was allowed (mb just coincidence).

Sunflowers.1729:

You can run back into the BP and HS away from the enemy standing inside, to continue stacking stealth. Shouldn’t be too hard if you do it with the camera facing down. And really doing that is putting a big “BACKSTAB ME” sign on your head.

Also, if you block my Backstab, I pay the heavy price of….waiting 1 second and Backstabbing you again. While gaining might, removing conditions, taking less damage, and regaining initiative.

Just try backstabbing me and getting 5 stacks of tormet plus heavy damage. Thieves who do that end up revealed in the down state. Bring it on – I’ll trade you a backstab for my counter . Remember I’m not glass.

You just need to read the number of contortions you have to go through to pull your stealth off. I mean…the more you write, the more you make it clear that stealthing is not as simple as just pressing a button.

You can’t seriously say that all this is easier than a mesmer insta cast stealth right?

I mean – I’ve played both classes. I know which is easier, so why is there even a discussion on this?

Contortions? That was just how to counter someone standing in BP. I didn’t even mention all the other instant stealths available to Thieves, or all the passive benefits from stealthing.

Let’s list them right here:
Blinding Powder (can be used when stunned, or to instantly combo with BP as it is a blast finisher)
Stealth on Steal (21s CD, traited, can be used when stunned)
Stealth from stealing from other Thieves
Shadow Refuge (it’s instant, technically).
Edit: And Last Refuge for completeness although nobody uses it.

And I, too, have played both classes. I can also claim to know that you are wrong, although that doesn’t prove anything

AlphatheWhite.9351:

bhagwad.4281:

You can even chain Mass invis while your other stealth is about to run out and your opponent has no way of knowing.

That’s not entirely true.
The Prestige has a visible flame animation when it ends.
If the player doesn’t appear when that happens, you can be pretty sure they popped MI, or at least decoy (not if they’re smart, decoy’s cooldown is long enough that they should be keeping it for emergencies, or if they’re running away).
You can tell whether they popped The Prestige or Decoy because decoy pops a clone and The Prestige does aoe smoke/blind.
You can tell whether they popped Veil because veil.
You can tell whether they popped MI because it has a channel.
They can hide MI behind other stealth, they can sometimes prevent decoy from dropping a clone depending on the situation, but they can’t hide The Prestige.

bhagwad.4281:

A mesmer can burst from distance.

You and others have repeated this ad nauseum, and to my knowledge none of you have replied to the counterpoint that inevitably comes up:
Mesmer distance burst sucks, relatively speaking. You lose at least half your shatter damage, the rest of the shatter has the biggest tell in the entire game (3 fake mesmers running straight for you), Mirror Blade only hits once, etc.
I don’t mean to say they can’t do ranged damage, but it doesn’t rise remotely close to the level you’re complaining about.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Thief can top it with shortbow or pistol, tbh.

bhagwad.4281:

unlike thieves where everyone knows ways to disrupt the famous BP+HS combo. And even if they can’t, they know where the thief is for a few seconds while they stack stealth.

Stealth on steal + infiltrator’s arrow/shadowstep = a thief who could be anywhere.
Pop Hide in Shadows immediately and you’ve got more stealth time, and then you can pop other stealth to extend the space.
You want to bring up the best of mesmer stealth, you’ve gotta compare it to the best of Thief stealth too. Using uneven comparisons is disingenuous at best, intentionally deceptive at worst.

bhagwad.4281:

There is no class that has enough stunbreaks to keep up with our six chained stuns with CS and background mantra recharge. Moreover, stun from stealth does not even cause reveal! And apart from that, where is the question of dodging when you’re stunned?

Confounding Suggestions has an ICD of 5s, the most stun you can get out of MoD is what, 1.5s?
How are you getting chain stuns? Or do you just mean how frequently you can stun? Because it’s not like the target champ has no tricks up their sleeve either, and sometimes all they need is breathing room. I’m pretty sure that’s what he meant by applying pressure.

That said, if there’s anything that I think should be toned down in some way, it’s Confounding Suggestions.

None of these “tells” compare to a huge red circle on the ground that you know the thief is most likely going to be jumping through for the next 2 seconds. I mean…decoy leaves a clone – what does that tell you? That he could have dodged in any direction afterwards.

Come on – mesmer stealth is far simpler and evadeable than a thief’s. Just let a neutral person see the comparisons.

The ranged damage is enough IMHO to be very threatening – especially when it can be pulled off this frequently.

“Stealth on steal + infiltrator’s arrow/shadowstep = a thief who could be anywhere.”

You’ve just had to press 2 buttons instead of 1. And I know exactly how slow inflitrator’s arrow is. You’ll be lucky to escape unscathed. Moreover, if you’ve switched to bow, you’re not going to be backstabbing me any time soon. You’ve made lots of tradeoffs, not to mention the fact that you’ll be lucky to escape as easily without paying a price.

Guys…most people in this discussion have played both classes. I have mained a mesmer for 3 years. I know what is easy and what isn’t. Most people here do. So let’s not over extend. The more examples you give of thief play, the more it’s obvious that it’s not just “press button – vanish poof!”.

And are we even addressing the torch CD reduction the longer one is in stealth? You mention 25% less damage in stealth? Weigh that against the boons a PU mesmer gets when in stealth. Blinding powder = 3 seconds stealth. Decoy = 6 seconds with PU.

What is this argument even about? Is anyone here suggesting that thief stealth counterplay is less than mesmer stealth counterplay?

bhagwad.4281:

And are we even addressing the torch CD reduction the longer one is in stealth? You mention 25% less damage in stealth? Weigh that against the boons a PU mesmer gets when in stealth. Blinding powder = 3 seconds stealth. Decoy = 6 seconds with PU.

Can I get condi removal, might, cooldown reduction (initiative), health regeneration, movespeed, less damage taken, and a massive hard hitting attack in stealth? You can get some of those with PU, true, but it’s not anywhere as much. Oh yes make it spammable on my weapon skill too.

Your claims of “everyone knows that I’m right” are kind of showing that you don’t have anything to argue with now.

Sunflowers.1729:

Contortions? That was just how to counter someone standing in BP. I didn’t even mention all the other instant stealths available to Thieves, or all the passive benefits from stealthing.

Let’s list them right here:
Blinding Powder (can be used when stunned, or to instantly combo with BP as it is a blast finisher)
Stealth on Steal (21s CD, traited, can be used when stunned)
Stealth from stealing from other Thieves
Shadow Refuge (it’s instant, technically).

And I, too, have played both classes. I can also claim to know that you are wrong, although that doesn’t prove anything

Let’s take those one by one:

1. BP – 3 seconds stealth vs decoy 6 seconds (with PU of course)

2. Stealth on steal – you just brought yourself into my range. Congratulations. I have counterplay

3. Stealth from other thieves – conditional. You cannot rely on it. Pretty rare actually

4. Shadow refuge – what? The biggest “tell” of them all. Counterplay = maximum.

Keep in mind that mesmer steal was fine before this. It’s PU that puts it over the top. And the CD reduction on pledge. And CS. So all your examples may have been valid before the PU buff. But no longer.

All of these together is what combines to make the mes worse than the thief.

Sunflowers.1729:

bhagwad.4281:

And are we even addressing the torch CD reduction the longer one is in stealth? You mention 25% less damage in stealth? Weigh that against the boons a PU mesmer gets when in stealth. Blinding powder = 3 seconds stealth. Decoy = 6 seconds with PU.

Can I get condi removal, might, cooldown reduction (initiative), health regeneration, movespeed, less damage taken, and a massive hard hitting attack in stealth? Oh yes make it spammable on my weapon skill too.

Your claims of “everyone knows that I’m right” are kind of showing that you don’t have anything to argue with now.

Here are the boons you can get from PU: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prismatic_Understanding

I think that covers everything you’ve mentioned?

bhagwad.4281:

There is no class that has enough stunbreaks to keep up with our six chained stuns with CS and background mantra recharge. Moreover, stun from stealth does not even cause reveal! And apart from that, where is the question of dodging when you’re stunned?

Stunbreaks, invulns etc are precious, few, and far between. They simply don’t keep up with the frequency of damage bursts and stuns available to mesmers post-patch.

And of course, our stealth has no counter. Stealth skills are insta cast and take no set up – unlike thieves where everyone knows ways to disrupt the famous BP+HS combo. And even if they can’t, they know where the thief is for a few seconds while they stack stealth.

Where is the setup for using “The Pledge”? Or “Decoy”? You can even chain Mass invis while your other stealth is about to run out and your opponent has no way of knowing.

Counterplay. The idea is to have counterplay. Thief stealth has counterplay. Mesmer stealth does not. Thief burst also has a lot more counterplay than mesmer burst – at least you know the thief has got to be close to you to Backstab. A mesmer can burst from distance. After stunning of course.

Heck we’re at advantage, what of it? This game doesn’t balance as per 1v1 combat and that should be apparent by now.

If it were me at the hands of the balance team, I’d simply nerf PU or make that Mass Invis can’t be cast while in stealth, probably also change CS to simply (increase all cc duration by 25%) so no MoD free stuns. This would in turn force force Mass Invis to be used first to enter extended stealth, which has a fair cast window open for interruption unless the mesmer pops blink or distortion which is a fair price for extended stealth.

Having CS modified would give counterplay to mesmer burst, allowing it to be slightly easier to avoid(we don’t want to make our burst completely unreliable).

But to the relief of many that enjoy unfair advantages! I’m not part of the balance team, heck I doubt they even work full time with such terrible balance.

Blinding powder with minor trait 4s (decoy 6s with major trait).
Nah, just suggesting you played against bad thieves probably. Which are not using los like fanatics.
Yes it is easier to kill bad thieves now. Some of them probably rerolling to mesmer. I don’t care tbh. About good ones – not so sure. Plus condi thieves can be pretty hard to handle.

Now you’re just being disingenuous and ignoring the facts.

Does PU give condi removal (no, but torch trait removes one). Does it give cooldown reduction (no, but pledge does, for two skills only). A massive hard hitting attack? (no). Consistent might? (No, it gives crappy amounts of might). The SA line gives all of those benefits consistently, all the time.

And try to counterplay my instant 1200 range dazing 20s CD stealth. Gotcha. So it puts me into melee range. You speak of it as ‘counterplay’. Guess what, you can use it on any clone, or even without a target. And I want to use it as a teleport. Are all teleports bad now because they put you into melee range?

Furthermore BP is 4 seconds when traited into SA Get your facts right. With each post it just reveals that you have never played Thief.

I’m not going to continue arguing with you, this is pointless and a waste of my time.

Sunflowers.1729:

Now you’re just being disingenuous and ignoring the facts.

Does PU give condi removal (no, but torch trait removes one). Does it give cooldown reduction (no, but pledge does, for two skills only). A massive hard hitting attack? (no). Consistent might? (No, it gives crappy amounts of might). The SA line gives all of those benefits consistently, all the time.

And try to counterplay my instant 1200 range dazing 20s CD stealth. Gotcha. So it puts me into melee range. You speak of it as ‘counterplay’. Guess what, you can use it on any clone, or even without a target. And I want to use it as a teleport. Are all teleports bad now because they put you into melee range?

Furthermore BP is 4 seconds when traited into SA Get your facts right. With each post it just reveals that you have never played Thief.

I’m not going to continue arguing with you, this is pointless and a waste of my time.

There are many who would find the tasty PU boons more than enough compensation. Does thief stealth give you Aegis? Does thief stealth give you 33% instead of 25% damage reduction (via protection)? You can say that thieves get a different packet of benefits while in stealth compared to the mesmer, but it’s far from a given that it’s better.

If you want to use your steal as a teleport to a clone, good for you. And even better for me! You’ve just had to make a sacrifice to get your stealth. A sacrifice that will see me undazed and healthy

Come on…give me one example of thief stealth besides blinding powder that has no counterplay or trade off of some sort of the other.

And do you want me to do the same for mesmer? Do I need to?

What Sunflowers said. The complexity of thief stealth options doesn’t make them unusable.
Frankly, as long as a player has a certain minimum level of experience, complexity is irrelevant, only durations, cooldowns and cast times matter.
If a thief can instant-stealth when they need it, on a decent cooldown so it’s up when they need it, and it really is effectively instant, it doesn’t matter how complicated it is.

As for teleporting into melee range, I’m operating off the fact that past a given range, the difference between instant and short-cast isn’t important. So, decoy and prestige being instant matters most where? When you need to get out of dodge, aka in melee.
Guess what, stealth on steal in melee doesn’t change the fact that you’re already in melee.
Steal is a great engage, but it’s also my favorite way to start a stealth escape on my thief (when I can’t CnD).

You forgot Hide in Shadows.

You keep conveniently ignoring things in your comparisons.

You did a “direct” comparison of Mesmer abilities, but whoops, you forgot some stealth sources!

You claim that Shadow Refuge is the ultimate counterable stealth ability, but whoops, you forgot that you can’t pull a thief out of stealth if you’re not an engineer, they take 25% less damage in stealth, they’re gonna come out of that SR with 10s of stealth, and they move much, much faster in stealth than a mesmer is even capable of!

Your comparisons suck because you aren’t making fair comparisons, and that damages your credibility so much that no one believes you.

If you seriously think you’re right, stop slanting your analysis, and take absolutely everything into account for both classes.
The fact that you have not simply makes me think that on some level, you know you’re wrong and are afraid that using the full facts will show you up. You want us to believe your experience on both thief and mes means a kitten , you gotta show it, and you’ve done a kitten poor job so far.

Ok I’ll make an exception and post one last time. Do you even hear what you are saying?

Seriously, anyone else can just read his original post (I didn’t quote the entirety of it above) and you see the hypocrisy. It’s so big and obvious.

Basically what Alpha said above. Your comparisons are not fair in the slightest and nobody will take you seriously.

Edit: Okay I really should have organized it better. Basically you said that when I use steal to stealth, that’s making a sacrifice? Really? I guess all Mesmer stealth is a sacrifice then because it has a CD. Decoy uses a stun break, that’s a sacrifice if you don’t use it when stunned. Pledge is my condi removal, that’s a sacrifice if I use it without a condition. MI gives reflection when traited, oh no I sacrificed it too.

bhagwad.4281:

Come on…give me one example of thief stealth besides blinding powder that has no counterplay or trade off of some sort of the other.

As Sunflowers.1729 already said:
detarget + traited steal = insta stealth without port

AlphatheWhite.9351:

You claim that Shadow Refuge is the ultimate counterable stealth ability, but whoops, you forgot that you can’t pull a thief out of stealth if you’re not an enginee

Emm?
Though it is easy to dodge gs5 or pull if have endurance

Sunflowers.1729:

Ok I’ll make an exception and post one last time. Do you even hear what you are saying?

bhagwad.4281:

If you want to use your steal as a teleport to a clone, good for you. And even better for me! You’ve just had to make a sacrifice to get your stealth. A sacrifice that will see me undazed and healthy

bhagwad.4281:

If you want to use your Prestige as a stealth, good for you. And even better for me! You’ve just had to make a sacrifice to get your stealth. A sacrifice that will see me unblinded/burned and healthy

Seriously, anyone else can just read his original post (I didn’t quote the entirety of it above) and you see the hypocrisy. It’s so big and obvious.

Basically what Alpha said above. Your comparisons are not fair in the slightest and nobody will take you seriously.

Your “last post” unfortunately had no response to what I just said.

Mak.2657:

Emm?
Though it is easy to dodge gs5 or pull if have endurance

That’s what I meant, sorry.
The generic point is that it’s not straightforward, and he’s insisting it is.

Gotta compare on even terms, not slanted ones.

bhagwad.4281:

bhagwad.4281:

If you want to use your steal as a teleport to a clone, good for you. And even better for me! You’ve just had to make a sacrifice to get your stealth. A sacrifice that will see me undazed and healthy

bhagwad.4281:

If you want to use your Prestige as a stealth, good for you. And even better for me! You’ve just had to make a sacrifice to get your stealth. A sacrifice that will see me unblinded/burned and healthy

Your “last post” unfortunately had no response to what I just said.

Read it again.
I’ll give you a hint: he quoted you twice, except one isn’t actually what you said, but points out that your point applies equally to both classes.

I’m gonna take his lead and exeunt, though. It’s clear that you have no interest in making a rational comparison to get to the real bottom of things, so there’s no point in arguing further.

I almost never do detarget steal for stealth against mesmer (not hard combo though). Ecto is best stolen item (double best if traited) + boon ripping +daze/ interrupt. Steal on clone kills clone (usualy mug is traited).

AlphatheWhite.9351:

What Sunflowers said. The complexity of thief stealth options doesn’t make them unusable.
Frankly, as long as a player has a certain minimum level of experience, complexity is irrelevant, only durations, cooldowns and cast times matter.
If a thief can instant-stealth when they need it, on a decent cooldown so it’s up when they need it, and it really is effectively instant, it doesn’t matter how complicated it is.

As for teleporting into melee range, I’m operating off the fact that past a given range, the difference between instant and short-cast isn’t important. So, decoy and prestige being instant matters most where? When you need to get out of dodge, aka in melee.
Guess what, stealth on steal in melee doesn’t change the fact that you’re already in melee.
Steal is a great engage, but it’s also my favorite way to start a stealth escape on my thief (when I can’t CnD).

You forgot Hide in Shadows.

You keep conveniently ignoring things in your comparisons.

You did a “direct” comparison of Mesmer abilities, but whoops, you forgot some stealth sources!

You claim that Shadow Refuge is the ultimate counterable stealth ability, but whoops, you forgot that you can’t pull a thief out of stealth if you’re not an engineer, they take 25% less damage in stealth, they’re gonna come out of that SR with 10s of stealth, and they move much, much faster in stealth than a mesmer is even capable of!

Your comparisons suck because you aren’t making fair comparisons, and that damages your credibility so much that no one believes you.

If you seriously think you’re right, stop slanting your analysis, and take absolutely everything into account for both classes.
The fact that you have not simply makes me think that on some level, you know you’re wrong and are afraid that using the full facts will show you up. You want us to believe your experience on both thief and mes means a kitten , you gotta show it, and you’ve done a kitten poor job so far.

Let’s take these points one by one.

Complexity does matter for two reasons:

1. Complex maneuvers take more time than simple ones
2. There’s always a chance of something going wrong

I mean BS+HS is undoubtedly more complex than simply pressing a button. If you had a target to start with, you have to de-target first to stack stealth. Then you have to have camera angles etc. Plus, it takes time. It’s definitely not instant.

So complexity matters – very much.

What about Hide in Shadows? You want to burn your 30s heal skill for 3 secs of stealth even when you don’t need the heal? Great! That’s a sacrifice you made. I don’t need counterplay when you’ve already shot yourself in the foot.

And wait – did you just say that no class other than engi can pull a thief out of shadow refuge? This is the mesmer forum right? Did you forget focus 4? Did you forget GS 5? Did you forget necro fear marks? Did you forget ele CC? Did you forget Warrior stomp?

Wow – just wow.

Moreover, did you forget AoE in general? The key here is counterplay. Pulling a thief out of shadow refuge is one type of counterplay. AoE’ing the well defined area is another type of counterplay.

You’re clearly not the right person to cast aspersions on another’s PvP experience if you say that only engis can throw thieves out of shadow refuge. In any case, you shouldn’t get personal.

Let’s keep it clean huh?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

bhagwad.4281:

bhagwad.4281:

If you want to use your steal as a teleport to a clone, good for you. And even better for me! You’ve just had to make a sacrifice to get your stealth. A sacrifice that will see me undazed and healthy

bhagwad.4281:

If you want to use your Prestige as a stealth, good for you. And even better for me! You’ve just had to make a sacrifice to get your stealth. A sacrifice that will see me unblinded/burned and healthy

Your “last post” unfortunately had no response to what I just said.

Read it again.
I’ll give you a hint: he quoted you twice, except one isn’t actually what you said, but points out that your point applies equally to both classes.

I’m gonna take his lead and exeunt, though. It’s clear that you have no interest in making a rational comparison to get to the real bottom of things, so there’s no point in arguing further.

He is most welcome to specify exactly why the comparisons are not fair. And when he and you both have mentioned something, I take the trouble to specifically address the point. He talked about hide in shadows. I addressed that with PU boons. He talked about stealth on steal. I addressed that as well. He talked about BS repeatedly and I addressed that too.

Exactly which points pray have you brought up that I haven’t addressed?

DHawk.2687:

Sunflowers.1729:

DHawk.2687:

Sunflowers.1729:

I don’t know what kind of thieves you’ve been fighting who don’t have a million different instant ways to get behind you to backstab.

Edit: As a Thief player myself stealth has very little counterplay. And where’s the counterplay to our spammable teleports? Or instant get-out-of-any-trouble Shadowstep? There isn’t either. So….yeah.

spamable teleports xD all together we have shortbow, which you don’t use in a fight to get behind the enemy, the Shadowstep, Steal, Infiltrators signet, Sword 2# which doesn’t really matter since sword is somewhat dead, and dp #3 which won’t help if you are stealthed
sounds like a lot but they all have a lot of cd/ini cost
a port is a port, none of them are counterable, ele has a port, necro kinda does, guard, mesmer, etc
big deal
but the fact that except for Mass Invis every stealth of the mesmer is insta cast, the only one the thief has is blinding powder. That gives the mesmer an unfair advantage for some ppl, since it is impossible to counter the instacast, unless you wildly predict it’s coming, which won’t work every time, as you might know

I’m not riding the Mesmer is so op train pls nerf, I’m just trying to point out that the teleport argument is irrelevant to the comparison of stealth

DP3 doesn’t help you when stealthed? Shows how much you know.

You can chain DP3 into backstab, from stealth.

no kitten, but not every thief knows how to chain, the simple CnD F1 Backstab combo on DD is too hard for most of the thieves i know

but that, as i said before, isn’t the point of my post

Outta of the mouth of a thief player. Thief players just plain suck at it. zero skills.

Yeah, okay, I’ll make one more response.

bhagwad.4281:

And wait – did you just say that no class other than engi can pull a thief out of shadow refuge? This is the mesmer forum right? Did you forget focus 4? Did you forget GS 5? Did you forget necro fear marks? Did you forget ele CC? Did you forget Warrior stomp?

Wow – just wow.

Moreover, did you forget AoE in general? The key here is counterplay. Pulling a thief out of shadow refuge is one type of counterplay. AoE’ing the well defined area is another type of counterplay.

You’re clearly not the right person to cast aspersions on another’s PvP experience if you say that only engis can throw thieves out of shadow refuge. In any case, you shouldn’t get personal.

You missed the part where that already got brought up. Read the thread, bro.
I was referring to ending the stealth specifically, not getting knocked out of the ring (which has counterplay, as both I and the other poster noted).

As far as focus4, you’re running torch, you don’t get to use that.
GS5 was addressed by the poster who already addressed my oversight.

It’s not simple, it’s not straightforward, but you keep insisting that it is.
That’s the problem here, not that you’re not addressing points (though you do miss stuff because apparently you don’t take the time to read the thread before you post), but that when you do, you just leave out the stuff that complicates things, insisting that it’s clear cut.

It’s not that there’s no play around the idea of using Hide in Shadows for stealth vs healing, it’s that you completely ignored its existence in a post where you claimed to compare all the sources of stealth between mesmer and thief.

It’s not that you didn’t say something about thief stealth, or that there isn’t a point to be made about thief complexity, but you claimed thief instant stealth wasn’t even a thing.

Yes, there are more. No, I’m not going into them, because this kind of poor debating behavior is best dealt with by ending debate.

If you are interested in making a fair, full comparison between all the options thieves and mesmers have at their disposal, I’m interested in being convinced (my primary mains are a thief and a mesmer).
Otherwise, I’m not interested in debating with someone who is not interested in a rational consideration of the subject.

Enough has been said to make it clear to lurkers that you are not arguing in good faith, I’m content that you can’t do any damage as you are.

If it makes you happy i was really happy to have good mes on team and was cheering for them, before patch that is.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Yeah, okay, I’ll make one more response.

bhagwad.4281:

And wait – did you just say that no class other than engi can pull a thief out of shadow refuge? This is the mesmer forum right? Did you forget focus 4? Did you forget GS 5? Did you forget necro fear marks? Did you forget ele CC? Did you forget Warrior stomp?

Wow – just wow.

Moreover, did you forget AoE in general? The key here is counterplay. Pulling a thief out of shadow refuge is one type of counterplay. AoE’ing the well defined area is another type of counterplay.

You’re clearly not the right person to cast aspersions on another’s PvP experience if you say that only engis can throw thieves out of shadow refuge. In any case, you shouldn’t get personal.

You missed the part where that already got brought up. Read the thread, bro.
I was referring to ending the stealth specifically, not getting knocked out of the ring (which has counterplay, as both I and the other poster noted).

As far as focus4, you’re running torch, you don’t get to use that.
GS5 was addressed by the poster who already addressed my oversight.

It’s not simple, it’s not straightforward, but you keep insisting that it is.
That’s the problem here, not that you’re not addressing points (though you do miss stuff because apparently you don’t take the time to read the thread before you post), but that when you do, you just leave out the stuff that complicates things, insisting that it’s clear cut.

It’s not that there’s no play around the idea of using Hide in Shadows for stealth vs healing, it’s that you completely ignored its existence in a post where you claimed to compare all the sources of stealth between mesmer and thief.

It’s not that you didn’t say something about thief stealth, or that there isn’t a point to be made about thief complexity, but you claimed thief instant stealth wasn’t even a thing.

Yes, there are more. No, I’m not going into them, because this kind of poor debating behavior is best dealt with by ending debate.

If you are interested in making a fair, full comparison between all the options thieves and mesmers have at their disposal, I’m interested in being convinced.
Otherwise, I’m not interested in debating with someone who is not interested in a rational consideration of the subject.

Enough has been said to make it clear to lurkers that you are not arguing in good faith, I’m content that you can’t do any damage as you are.

We are not discussing a duel between a thief and a mesmer using torch. We are discussing stealth counter capabilities in general. As a mesmer, I have pulled a thief out of Shadow innumerable times. But the main point is addressed – shadow refuge has counterplay.

Counterplay is all anyone is asking for.

You say I ignored “hide in shadows”. Yet when you brought it up, I addressed it. So what is your complaint about me not responding to your points? Moreoever, this entire thread has also been focused heavily on insta cast stealth skills, which hide in shadows is not.

Counterplay – hide in shadows has counterplay. As you admit. So what is the problem?

In an earlier post, I’d already mentioned that instant thief stealth is available with blinding powder. So what is your complaint exactly?

Show me one point that you have brought up that I have refused to address, and your post has merit. Otherwise, no.

The general point I’m making is pretty obvious. Thief stealth has counterplay. Mesmer stealth does not. All your examples and posts have done nothing to even hint at otherwise.

Again both mesmer and thief have a same number of “non counterable” stealth ability – 2.

Mak.2657:

Again both mesmer and thief have a same number of “non counterable” stealth ability – 2.

Which are the two thief ones? And what’s the duration of stealth they can stack? And how frequently?

Actually, my point is an accumulation of many things. The non tracking of stealth, the ability to initiate a burst from range, and the ability to chain 6 stuns with a gap of 5 seconds.

Mak.2657:

You know “stability” boon (cowered with other boons or just pulsing)?

Mesmer’s instant stealth skills:
1. Decoy (can be done when stunned)
2. The prestige (can not be done when stunned, need torch)

Thieves instant stealth skill:
1. Blinding powder (can be done when stunned),
2. Hidden thief trait (can be done when stunned, need trait ofc)

Both can cast stealth skills with cast time or combos from stealth.
Mesmer bursts works at melee or almost melee range. Mesmer can initiate burst from distance. Thief can too.

Do not playing with cs right now. Have no big problems vs cs shatter neither on mesmer, nor thief. Idk, mb hadn’t meet good cs shatters. I eat most part of stealthed combo burst, but usually manage to escape and burst back.
Though cs is banned now on angz server, didn’t notice big problems with it when it was allowed (mb just coincidence).

Played pug round as a thief right now. Enemy had 2 mesmers with cs. They couldn’t burst me even together. Kept them busy and contesting point most time of the round through the kiting and los.
I m not good thief, pretty mediocre probably. But know some basics.

Mak.2657:

Mak.2657:

You know “stability” boon (cowered with other boons or just pulsing)?

Mesmer’s instant stealth skills:
1. Decoy (can be done when stunned)
2. The prestige (can not be done when stunned, need torch)

Thieves instant stealth skill:
1. Blinding powder (can be done when stunned),
2. Hidden thief trait (can be done when stunned, need trait ofc)

Both can cast stealth skills with cast time or combos from stealth.
Mesmer bursts works at melee or almost melee range. Mesmer can initiate burst from distance. Thief can too.

Do not playing with cs right now. Have no big problems vs cs shatter neither on mesmer, nor thief. Idk, mb hadn’t meet good cs shatters. I eat most part of stealthed combo burst, but usually manage to escape and burst back.
Though cs is banned now on angz server, didn’t notice big problems with it when it was allowed (mb just coincidence).

Played pug round as a thief right now. Enemy had 2 mesmers with cs. They couldn’t burst me even together. Keep them busy and contesting point most time of the round through the kiting and los.
I m not good thief, pretty mediocre probably. But knows some basics.

Stealing to gain stealth has costs. To start with, it’s just 2 seconds. Second, it teleports you right into range of your enemy. If you teleport to a clone, it’s even worse. 2 seconds stealth for the loss of an extremely powerful skill that didn’t even damage the other guy… If the purpose of stealth is to confuse your opponent and not let them know where you are, stealing to achieve that is counter productive.

The point I’m making has to do with trade offs and counterplay. When a mesmer decoys or torch stealths, there is no counterplay. No chance of disrupting the stealth. They don’t give up anything. There is no downside to stealthing other than the CD of course.

I mean if a thief is fighting a mesmer, using steal on a clone just to gain 2s of stealth is even worse, because think of the boons they’re giving up!

Again – 3s with minor trait (+1s). As I said I always prefer to steal vs mesmer. Ecto is a best stolen item. What is wrong with getting to close range?
Steal is counterable? No cast time = no animations for react. Only if very good at predicting it.

I already admitted that after patch it is easier to kill bad thieves. But good ones are still hard for me.

DHawk.2687:

no kitten, but not every thief knows how to chain, the simple CnD F1 Backstab combo on DD is too hard for most of the thieves i know

And here is something I’ve always said: most thief players are bad players period.

All I can say is I was playing with my thief in WvW tonight instead of mesmer. I had stealth when I needed it, I could be pr01337 and just better than everyone trying to stop me but I think just learning the basics about mechanics such as fields is what did it.

It isn’t hard to combo stealth as a thief, not when you need/want it and short of SR there’s very little people can do about it.

Got 100-0 by 1 daze mesmer but I was so out of position quite frankly if he didn’t the 10 bearbows woulda.

Met my first condi thief since the patch…I hate them, they can die in a fire in the deepest part of hell. I’d rather be killed by a daze mesmer 100 times than see that low risk troll build become popular.

Other than that only thing that really was a threat was maybe power necros if they got to zerg safety and could turn the DPS onto you and those bloomin 1500 range rapidfires, didn’t die to them though.

Sunflowers.1729:

Really? CnD into Steal is too hard? I have a very hard time believing that.

Edit: You can also trait it to automatically stealth you so there isn’t even a need to CnD.

I know a few, and it would kinda be dumb to trait that, since the cnd steal backstab improves the inital bursts dmg, rather take the trait that’ll give out regen when entering stealth

Sunflowers.1729:

Contortions? That was just how to counter someone standing in BP. I didn’t even mention all the other instant stealths available to Thieves, or all the passive benefits from stealthing.

Let’s list them right here:
Blinding Powder (can be used when stunned, or to instantly combo with BP as it is a blast finisher)
Stealth on Steal (21s CD, traited, can be used when stunned)
Stealth from stealing from other Thieves
Shadow Refuge (it’s instant, technically).
Edit: And Last Refuge for completeness although nobody uses it.

And I, too, have played both classes. I can also claim to know that you are wrong, although that doesn’t prove anything

Blinding power has a cast time (the skill #5)
stealing from a thief, that stealth also has a cast time
SR is a big, kill me I’m right here sign, since you have to wait 4 sekittenil you can exit if you don’t want to be revealed, and SR also isn’t instacast if I’m not mistaking

MailMail.6534:

DHawk.2687:

no kitten, but not every thief knows how to chain, the simple CnD F1 Backstab combo on DD is too hard for most of the thieves i know

And here is something I’ve always said: most thief players are bad players period.

it’s sadly true, whenever i see an enemy thief, 90% of the time he is full zerk and even using signet of shadows, my thief has more sustain, power and crit dmg than full zerk, so if they attack me, i turn around CnD, backstab, thief dead
all the time
best thing was, a thief attacked me out of stealth, i was full hp (22k), what skills did he press, not 1, not 5, he went 22222222222222222222222222222222
i just laughed and instakilled him xD
the problem is that a great amount of the really good thieves stoped playing thief because of the last patch, some even because of older nerfs, so most thieves are newbies without any skill or know how about the class ^^

bhagwad.4281:

Mak.2657:

Mak.2657:

You know “stability” boon (cowered with other boons or just pulsing)?

Mesmer’s instant stealth skills:
1. Decoy (can be done when stunned)
2. The prestige (can not be done when stunned, need torch)

Thieves instant stealth skill:
1. Blinding powder (can be done when stunned),
2. Hidden thief trait (can be done when stunned, need trait ofc)

Both can cast stealth skills with cast time or combos from stealth.
Mesmer bursts works at melee or almost melee range. Mesmer can initiate burst from distance. Thief can too.

Do not playing with cs right now. Have no big problems vs cs shatter neither on mesmer, nor thief. Idk, mb hadn’t meet good cs shatters. I eat most part of stealthed combo burst, but usually manage to escape and burst back.
Though cs is banned now on angz server, didn’t notice big problems with it when it was allowed (mb just coincidence).

Played pug round as a thief right now. Enemy had 2 mesmers with cs. They couldn’t burst me even together. Keep them busy and contesting point most time of the round through the kiting and los.
I m not good thief, pretty mediocre probably. But knows some basics.

Stealing to gain stealth has costs. To start with, it’s just 2 seconds. Second, it teleports you right into range of your enemy. If you teleport to a clone, it’s even worse. 2 seconds stealth for the loss of an extremely powerful skill that didn’t even damage the other guy… If the purpose of stealth is to confuse your opponent and not let them know where you are, stealing to achieve that is counter productive.

The point I’m making has to do with trade offs and counterplay. When a mesmer decoys or torch stealths, there is no counterplay. No chance of disrupting the stealth. They don’t give up anything. There is no downside to stealthing other than the CD of course.

I mean if a thief is fighting a mesmer, using steal on a clone just to gain 2s of stealth is even worse, because think of the boons they’re giving up!

I’m sorry but do you even play thief? Couple of red flags here, Saying it’s just two seconds makes me think you’re just looking at the traits from wiki because most thieves know the master Shadow Arts minor increases all stealth by 1 second. It has always been this way and even pre-patch it was impossible to take the Stealth on steal trait without having the +1 second stealth minor.

Seeing as all of thieves damage skills and one of their best stealth gaining skills(CnD) are all melee range, steal teleporting you to your target is a huge boon. In fact, many bursts rely on instant teleports to launch fast attacks from outside melee range initially.

If a mesmer is overstealthing, why not do the same? The issue is most thieves are running the typical pre-patch D/P build(still with zerker amulet even though marauder is probably a better option currently), which has a much harder time stacking stealth when fighting competent players. Standing inside Black Powder has always been a viable way to counter unskilled D/P thieves. But if you run S/D, you can 2 for 1 the mesmer when they stealth. CnD to kill a clone(reducing their burst should they try to hit you from stealth or forces them to dodge to make more) and then gain stealth yourself.

Saying there’s no downside to mesmer stealthing is a huge overstatement, especially when thieves are well known for their ability to completely reset/escape fights using Shadow Refuge or even just stealth stacking+Sbow. Every second the mesmer spends recovering in stealth is another second for your SR or steal to come off cd. Another second for Shadow Step to come off cd, etc.

Also can’t forget that sometimes stealing from a clone is a good option as IIRC, it provides Blinding Tuft, which will net you 8 seconds of stealth if you’re running Shadow Arts and Improvisation(11 if you’re running stealth on steal) which is more than enough to recover.

Thieves can no longer hard counter mesmers just by taking 20 seconds to focus them anymore, unfortunately a lot of players got used to not having to try when it came to killing average mesmers.

Necrotize.2974:

Thieves can no longer hard counter mesmers just by taking 20 seconds to focus them anymore, unfortunately a lot of players got used to not having to try when it came to killing average mesmers.

No, it thieves just have to play like top ESL players vs average mesmer that are incapable of dodging or landing any shatter w/o spamming 3 stuns in a row. That is mesmers i am been facing after patch.

I used to have big respect for mesmers, i knew that class used to take skill, if i died to one i knew i got outplayed and should get better. I LOVED to have decent mesmer on team, the pain train with fellow mesmers was always really fun. Now i just look at mesmers, look them getting rewarded for mistakes, bad position and bad use of spells and think: “wow, turret engis second edition~”

Cynz.9437:

Necrotize.2974:

Thieves can no longer hard counter mesmers just by taking 20 seconds to focus them anymore, unfortunately a lot of players got used to not having to try when it came to killing average mesmers.

No, it thieves just have to play like top ESL players vs average mesmer that are incapable of dodging or landing any shatter w/o spamming 3 stuns in a row. That is mesmers i am been facing after patch.

I used to have big respect for mesmers, i knew that class used to take skill, if i died to one i knew i got outplayed and should get better. I LOVED to have decent mesmer on team, the pain train with fellow mesmers was always really fun. Now i just look at mesmers, look them getting rewarded for mistakes, bad position and bad use of spells and think: “wow, turret engis second edition~”

GW2 balance achieved. Mesmer now in line with all other classes since release. :D

Ross Biddle.2367:

Cynz.9437:

Necrotize.2974:

Thieves can no longer hard counter mesmers just by taking 20 seconds to focus them anymore, unfortunately a lot of players got used to not having to try when it came to killing average mesmers.

No, it thieves just have to play like top ESL players vs average mesmer that are incapable of dodging or landing any shatter w/o spamming 3 stuns in a row. That is mesmers i am been facing after patch.

I used to have big respect for mesmers, i knew that class used to take skill, if i died to one i knew i got outplayed and should get better. I LOVED to have decent mesmer on team, the pain train with fellow mesmers was always really fun. Now i just look at mesmers, look them getting rewarded for mistakes, bad position and bad use of spells and think: “wow, turret engis second edition~”

GW2 balance achieved. Mesmer now in line with all other classes since release.

Agreed. so eat it thieve. This mesmer lunch will cost you real skill’s.

I feel most Veteran Mesmer still stick to Non-Stealth Camping builds (most of them at least).

It is the players that don’t main mesmers, are frustrated, and angry at A-net that flock to these builds. As a Ranger, Warrior, and fellow Mesmer myself, I have noticed a pretty large skill gap between these players.

DHawk.2687:

Sunflowers.1729:

DHawk.2687:

Sunflowers.1729:

I don’t know what kind of thieves you’ve been fighting who don’t have a million different instant ways to get behind you to backstab.

Edit: As a Thief player myself stealth has very little counterplay. And where’s the counterplay to our spammable teleports? Or instant get-out-of-any-trouble Shadowstep? There isn’t either. So….yeah.

spamable teleports xD all together we have shortbow, which you don’t use in a fight to get behind the enemy, the Shadowstep, Steal, Infiltrators signet, Sword 2# which doesn’t really matter since sword is somewhat dead, and dp #3 which won’t help if you are stealthed
sounds like a lot but they all have a lot of cd/ini cost
a port is a port, none of them are counterable, ele has a port, necro kinda does, guard, mesmer, etc
big deal
but the fact that except for Mass Invis every stealth of the mesmer is insta cast, the only one the thief has is blinding powder. That gives the mesmer an unfair advantage for some ppl, since it is impossible to counter the instacast, unless you wildly predict it’s coming, which won’t work every time, as you might know

I’m not riding the Mesmer is so op train pls nerf, I’m just trying to point out that the teleport argument is irrelevant to the comparison of stealth

DP3 doesn’t help you when stealthed? Shows how much you know.

You can chain DP3 into backstab, from stealth.

no kitten, but not every thief knows how to chain, the simple CnD F1 Backstab combo on DD is too hard for most of the thieves i know

but that, as i said before, isn’t the point of my post

Then you’re apparently basing your arguments off a class of players far too unskilled to have a chance of pulling off any sort of burst either on Mesmer or thief. If pressing 3 and then 1 real quick is too hard, how could they possibly hope to press MoD, then MB, then dodge, then MW, then MS?

Just comparing thief stealth vs. mesmer stealth isn’t very informative, because thief doesn’t have to stealth to disengage. Thief can just SB5 away and re-engage before mesmer’s longer CDs have reset. Also, if you just want to compare stealth, keep in mind that a lot of the thief’s stealth is initiative-based, which means it’s on a lower cooldown in the long run. For example, BP+HS3x is effectively on a ~12s cooldown w/ shadow rejuv. Mesmer might be able to get longer stealth in the short term by popping decoy, torch4, and mass invis, but that leaves the mesmer w/o any stealth for the next ~40s.

Thieves plainly don’t hardcounter mesmers anymore. But I don’t see why that’s a problem, especially since thieves have superior mobility.

All in all, a good thief who knows how to bait out MoDs, or has the muscle memory to negate an MoD burst (such as by quickly mugging the mesmer to interrupt GS2 + apply weakness) still does really well against mesmers. I’d say it’s 50/50 w/o LOS.

And if there is a lot of room for LOSing / disengaging, then thief gets a slight advantage because the thief won’t even have to burn multiple stealths to counter PU torch4 — the thief can just port out of range of an effective burst, wait until torch4 timing has run a few seconds, and then go into counter-stealth.

To be sure, mesmer does completely wreck lower-level thieves who aren’t good at baiting MoD and don’t have the muscle memory to quickly negate an MoD burst. The problem is pretty much every mesmer, even newer players, can easily MoD + mirror blade + GS3 + mind wrack. So at lower levels between equally skilled players, it’ll look like the mesmer is just bullying the thief around. I definitely sympathize w/ the OP when I see these kinds of duels. The confounding suggestions trait is the main culprit here. But when I watch higher-level people fight, the fights are definitely way more even.

Kinda agree with ResJudicator.

I have been messing around on my thief recently to get a better feel of it after patch. 2 mesmers playing the PU, MoD build just kept at it on me. Was very annoying, I baited them all out and lasted for a very long time but couldn’t kill either of them due to the other using CS and constantly watching for the burst.

When the numbers evened up the fight was easier. A change to CS is definitely needed, it isn’t fun fighting against a high uptime of stuns and even worse if there’s multiple people using it.

Also fixing the torch trait to remove stealth camping and improve it’s actual use outside of stealth builds would be nice.

PU is fine..

The only problem comes when its mixed with torch and manipulation cd’s. Then its overkill and too easy.. Please fix anet I’m getting bored of my class and I can’t enjoy any of my wins.

dank.3680:

PU is fine..

The only problem comes when its mixed with torch and manipulation cd’s. Then its overkill and too easy.. Please fix anet I’m getting bored of my class and I can’t enjoy any of my wins.

Just dont run PU?

It’s not like it’s necessary anyway. Decoy, mass invis, more than enough. Hell, you shouldn’t even need MI. Decoy will do.

Ross Biddle.2367:

dank.3680:

PU is fine..

The only problem comes when its mixed with torch and manipulation cd’s. Then its overkill and too easy.. Please fix anet I’m getting bored of my class and I can’t enjoy any of my wins.

Just dont run PU?

It’s not like it’s necessary anyway. Decoy, mass invis, more than enough. Hell, you shouldn’t even need MI. Decoy will do.

For PvP it is where there’s something to LoS around every few steps. In WvW this isn’t the case a lot of the time, that’s where the extra stealth duration is really handy. I know, we don’t balance around WvW but just thought I’d mention it. I do want to see the torch trait changed though, it’s just simply bad for anything but boring camping in stealth and being something I can’t say on the forums.