Guild Wars 2

By most, as in more than other Phantasms?
How many conditions are required on target? Curious.

Open world events such as Wurm and Teq. Can’t think of anything else.

Renny.6571:

Open world events such as Wurm and Teq. Can’t think of anything else.

That’s anyone’s first thought, but I wanted someone’s specific numbers on that.

It doesn’t seem very consistent for me in WvW. I’ll have 3 conditions on an enemy and it’ll hit for 7k, while sometimes I’ll have 6 conditions stacked on them and it’ll only crit for 2.4k.

Viking Jorun.5413:

It doesn’t seem very consistent for me in WvW. I’ll have 3 conditions on an enemy and it’ll hit for 7k, while sometimes I’ll have 6 conditions stacked on them and it’ll only crit for 2.4k.

Are You suggesting it’s bugged? :o

EDIT: Disregard everything in this post, it was a phenomenal waste of time and life.

I think I read somewhere that 7 conditions was the point at which Warlock overtakes the other high-damage Phantasms.

According to the Wiki, Warlock has a base of 438 an a coefficient of 1.65. Swordsman has a base of 672, and a coefficient of 1.925. Duelist, after combining all eight shots, has a base of 768, and a coefficient of 2.2.

Then, when considering attack rate, Warlock is 64.4 damage per second, 0.243 coefficient, Swordsman is 143 damage per second, 0.41 coefficient, and Duelist is 101 damage per second, 0.289 coefficient.

If you use Phantasmal Haste, Warlock goes to 75.5/0.284, and Duelist goes to 111/0.319. Swordsman is unaffected by the trait.

Phew. Now! From here, can gauge how it all works when taking into account Power and the number of Conditions.

-DPS at 1000 Power-

Swordsman: 553
Duelist: 390 (430 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 0 conditions: 307.4 (359.5 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 1 condition: 338.14 (395.45 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 2 conditions: 368.88 (431.4 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 3 conditions: 399.62 (467.35 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 4 conditions: 430.36 (503.3 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 5 conditions: 461.1 (539.25 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 6 conditions: 491.84 (575.2 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 7 conditions: 522.58 (611.15 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 8 conditions: 553.32 (647.1 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 9 conditions: 584.06 (683.05 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 10 conditions: 614.8 (719 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 11 conditions: 645.54 (754.95 with Phantasmal Haste)
Warlock with 12 conditions: 676.28 (790.9 with Phantasmal Haste)

So, at 1000 Power, it seems that Warlock passes by Duelist with 3 Conditions, and passes by Swordsman with 8 conditions. With Phantasmal Haste, Warlock overtakes Duelist at 2 conditions instead, and passes Swordsman at 6 conditions.

However, I’m sure you’ll have more than 1000 Power if you’re focusing on Phantasms. It takes 7 conditions for Warlock’s coefficient to pass Swordsman’s, and passes Duelist with just 2 conditions. So, in general, you’ll want to takes those two numbers as the base amount needed to surpass their damage (7 for Swordsman, 2 for Duelist), but you may want to run your own Power score through to find out the specifics.

This is all going off of Wiki knowledge exclusively, though, and I’m not 100% certain how each number comes into play, so I may be off.

tl;dr
7 conditions to do more damage than Swordsman
2 conditions to do more damage than Duelist

Toolbox.9375:

According to the Wiki, Warlock has a base of 438 an a coefficient of 1.65. Swordsman has a base of 672, and a coefficient of 1.925. Duelist, after combining all eight shots, has a base of 768, and a coefficient of 2.2.

Hate to rain on your calculation parade here, but that’s not how it works. Base damage isn’t something that actually exists.

Calculation for phantasms is as follows: (Level 80 exotic weapon damage) * (Skill Coefficient) * (Power) / (Target Armor) * (other modifiers such as crits or phantasmal strength)

Pyroatheist.9031:

Toolbox.9375:

According to the Wiki, Warlock has a base of 438 an a coefficient of 1.65. Swordsman has a base of 672, and a coefficient of 1.925. Duelist, after combining all eight shots, has a base of 768, and a coefficient of 2.2.

Hate to rain on your calculation parade here, but that’s not how it works. Base damage isn’t something that actually exists.

Calculation for phantasms is as follows: (Level 80 exotic weapon damage) * (Skill Coefficient) * (Power) / (Target Armor) * (other modifiers such as crits or phantasmal strength)

Well, obviously, there’s criticals and other damage boosts to take into account, but are those different between each individual Phantasm, or did I cover the points of difference that would affect how they perform in relation to one another?

I miss the days when games had systems you could actually figure out and calculate through.

Toolbox.9375:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Toolbox.9375:

According to the Wiki, Warlock has a base of 438 an a coefficient of 1.65. Swordsman has a base of 672, and a coefficient of 1.925. Duelist, after combining all eight shots, has a base of 768, and a coefficient of 2.2.

Hate to rain on your calculation parade here, but that’s not how it works. Base damage isn’t something that actually exists.

Calculation for phantasms is as follows: (Level 80 exotic weapon damage) * (Skill Coefficient) * (Power) / (Target Armor) * (other modifiers such as crits or phantasmal strength)

Well, obviously, there’s criticals and other damage boosts to take into account, but are those different between each individual Phantasm, or did I cover the points of difference that would affect how they perform in relation to one another?

I miss the days when games had systems you could actually figure out and calculate through.

The system in this game is pretty simple actually, you were just doing it wrong I think.

I’m not 100% clear on what you did, as you didn’t show every step, but I believe you were using that base damage in the calculations. If you used that number, then every conclusion past that point is faulty.

You can. GW2 equations are more involved and have a big element of RNG in them which further makes calculations even harder.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Toolbox.9375:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Toolbox.9375:

According to the Wiki, Warlock has a base of 438 an a coefficient of 1.65. Swordsman has a base of 672, and a coefficient of 1.925. Duelist, after combining all eight shots, has a base of 768, and a coefficient of 2.2.

Hate to rain on your calculation parade here, but that’s not how it works. Base damage isn’t something that actually exists.

Calculation for phantasms is as follows: (Level 80 exotic weapon damage) * (Skill Coefficient) * (Power) / (Target Armor) * (other modifiers such as crits or phantasmal strength)

Well, obviously, there’s criticals and other damage boosts to take into account, but are those different between each individual Phantasm, or did I cover the points of difference that would affect how they perform in relation to one another?

I miss the days when games had systems you could actually figure out and calculate through.

The system in this game is pretty simple actually, you were just doing it wrong I think.

I’m not 100% clear on what you did, as you didn’t show every step, but I believe you were using that base damage in the calculations. If you used that number, then every conclusion past that point is faulty.

The only thing I did with the base damage value was tack it on after the coefficient times Power calculations.

And “simple” my backside. :P I miss games where you’d have a base damage stat, a value to apply to it through simple multiplication or addition, and a defense stat by which to divide the total by or subtract or some other simple calculation. None of this unique-to-each-power coefficient stuff, no diminishing returns, no having to account for eighty different variables to get one number. It’s like a game isn’t considered worthy unless it takes a doctorate in mathematics to figure it out, these days.

Toolbox.9375:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Toolbox.9375:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Toolbox.9375:

According to the Wiki, Warlock has a base of 438 an a coefficient of 1.65. Swordsman has a base of 672, and a coefficient of 1.925. Duelist, after combining all eight shots, has a base of 768, and a coefficient of 2.2.

Hate to rain on your calculation parade here, but that’s not how it works. Base damage isn’t something that actually exists.

Calculation for phantasms is as follows: (Level 80 exotic weapon damage) * (Skill Coefficient) * (Power) / (Target Armor) * (other modifiers such as crits or phantasmal strength)

Well, obviously, there’s criticals and other damage boosts to take into account, but are those different between each individual Phantasm, or did I cover the points of difference that would affect how they perform in relation to one another?

I miss the days when games had systems you could actually figure out and calculate through.

The system in this game is pretty simple actually, you were just doing it wrong I think.

I’m not 100% clear on what you did, as you didn’t show every step, but I believe you were using that base damage in the calculations. If you used that number, then every conclusion past that point is faulty.

The only thing I did with the base damage value was tack it on after the coefficient times Power calculations.

Yeah, so that makes them all wrong. Base damage is not a concept that exists in this game, full stop, end of story.

The way you need to do the analysis is simply assume a test value for both power and armor as your starting analysis. The armor value you won’t need to change at all, so just set that as 2500. Power you can start at 2000 as a good baseline. From that point, you’ll need to look at 2 things. The first is how the warlock scales with conditions, and how all of the phantasms scale with more power (as determined by the skill coefficient).

Pyroatheist.9031:

Toolbox.9375:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Toolbox.9375:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Toolbox.9375:

According to the Wiki, Warlock has a base of 438 an a coefficient of 1.65. Swordsman has a base of 672, and a coefficient of 1.925. Duelist, after combining all eight shots, has a base of 768, and a coefficient of 2.2.

Hate to rain on your calculation parade here, but that’s not how it works. Base damage isn’t something that actually exists.

Calculation for phantasms is as follows: (Level 80 exotic weapon damage) * (Skill Coefficient) * (Power) / (Target Armor) * (other modifiers such as crits or phantasmal strength)

Well, obviously, there’s criticals and other damage boosts to take into account, but are those different between each individual Phantasm, or did I cover the points of difference that would affect how they perform in relation to one another?

I miss the days when games had systems you could actually figure out and calculate through.

The system in this game is pretty simple actually, you were just doing it wrong I think.

I’m not 100% clear on what you did, as you didn’t show every step, but I believe you were using that base damage in the calculations. If you used that number, then every conclusion past that point is faulty.

The only thing I did with the base damage value was tack it on after the coefficient times Power calculations.

Yeah, so that makes them all wrong. Base damage is not a concept that exists in this game, full stop, end of story.

The way you need to do the analysis is simply assume a test value for both power and armor as your starting analysis. The armor value you won’t need to change at all, so just set that as 2500. Power you can start at 2000 as a good baseline. From that point, you’ll need to look at 2 things. The first is how the warlock scales with conditions, and how all of the phantasms scale with more power (as determined by the skill coefficient).

In that case, it sounds like the last calculation saying that the Warlock coefficient passes Duelist at 2 conditions and Swordsman at 7 would be correct.

Gonna go ahead and drop out of this, now, it’s frustrating as kitten and I abhor all modern game developers.

When it actually does it’s attack and doesn’t just stand still C:

@pyro

So when does warlock overtake?

There was another thread about this and without PH with 4 conditions it’s the highest dps phant.

Btw (as almost allways) I can just confirm Pyro. In this game there is NO BASE DAMAGE only a BASE HEAL on healing skills and a BASE DAMAGE on conditions.

Also the skill coefficient is the only number a skill has. Means it DOES NOT MATTER how much power you got. 1000, 2000, 3000, the % damage Phant A does more than B is allways the same!

A duellist dealing 5k DpS with 2k power (just an example) would deal 7.5k DpS with 3k power and so on.

Here we go! Had to search about 50 pages for this! >:(

frifox.5283:

Spent few hours recording each phantasm and then using video editing software to record the time between attacks with Phantasmal Haste and without. Then, in HotM (no armor, no trinkets, no sigils, no power traits) against a dummy golem (open field, not against a wall) I recorded 20 non-crits from each phantasms and took an average for each. Finally, I divided the average damage over the time between attacks. Here are attack rates:

Attack rate (untraited):

• Swordsman – 4.5 sec
• Berserker – 7.1 sec
• Duelist – 7.5 sec
• Warlock – 6.8 sec
• Warden – 13.7 sec
• Mariner – 10.3 sec
• Mage – 7.7 sec
• Whaler – 9.7 sec
• Disenchanter – 4.4 sec
• Defender – 4.6 sec

Attack rate (traited):

• Swordsman – 4.5 sec
• Berserker – 7.1 sec
• Duelist – 6.5 sec
• Warlock – 5.7 sec
• Warden – 12.2 sec
• Mariner – 10.3 sec
• Mage – 6.5 sec
• Whaler – 8.3 sec
• Disenchanter – 3.8 sec
• Defender – 4.0 sec

Attack rate (difference):

• Swordsman – 0% faster
• Berserker – 0% faster
• Duelist – 15% faster
• Warlock – 19% faster
• Warden – 12% faster
• Mariner – 0% faster
• Mage – 18% faster
• Whaler – 17% faster
• Disenchanter – 16% faster
• Defender – 15% faster

relative direct DPS. No gear, no traits, no crits

hide spoiler

Without Phantasmal Haste:

• Swordsman – 144
• Berserker – 115
• Duelist – 98
• Warlock – 81
• Warden – 81
• Mariner 67
• Mage – 30
• Whaler – 28
• Disenchanter – 21
• Defender – 18

With Phantasmal Haste:

• Swordsman – 144
• Berserker – 115
• Duelist – 113
• Warlock – 97
• Warden – 90
• Mariner – 67
• Mage – 35
• Whaler – 33
• Disenchanter – 25
• Defender – 21

Of course, the damage dealt from possible bleeds on crit (5s base duration), confusion stacks (mage), and conditions on enemy (warlock) was not accounted in the test.

I added a second table on wiki for Phantasmal Haste beside the current one where I listed the times between attacks. The time is the amount of time between 1st damage hit of the phantasm. In case of swordsman, the time between every hit. In case of duelist or any multi-hit phantasm, the time between the very 1st hit for each unload.

So the iWarlock requires:

• 2 conditions for the duellist (probably 3 cuz of bleeding)
• 5 / 8 conditions for the swordsman (PH doesn’t affect iS)

fair enough I guess, since the iS often dies while ranged phants survive longer

^^

According to my old study Warlock will have to hit 48% harder (77% without PH) to match Swordsman. 10% boost per unique condition means enemy has to have at around 4 or 5 condis to match swordsman DPS. Of course, there are many other variables but this is a solid starting point

Wich other variables? Tell me one. I just can think about “surviability” and that’s it.

Build. The only way to get both 15% dmg traits, phantasmal fury, phantasmal haste, and sharper images is with 10/15/0/25/20. That means no traited staff which means longer wind up time to 3 phantasms. Inability to trait for Blade Training also means losing ~5 crit chance/damage. Of course, you can run standard 10/20/0/25/15 but then your warlock advantage will be much harder to achieve due to loss of PH.

I believe zerk Staff is only viable vs dps sponges with a zerg such as world bosses and champ farms. But then, nobody cares about your DPS there so might as well camp gs. XD

The 2x 15% dmg, aswell fury and sharper images all affect both phantasms the same. Both deal 32.25% more damage, have 20% more crit chance. Well maybe the iS will cause a few more bleeding tics, due its faster atk spd. But nothing noticable. The % damage increase is the same.

PH will affect the iWarlock but does not the iSwordsman. But you said this already and added “many other variables”. But there aren’t any, only the fact that the iS dies often and the iW misses sometimes.

No traited staff for a longer wind up time? That trait doesn’t work like this my friend.

Traited staff = 2s + 12s till 3 phantasms. Untraited = 2s + 16s (2s are for 1st summon, heal, 2nd summon). 4s longer wind up time. Granted in many situations those 4s you might not even notice.

In zerg environment with bosses having all conditions PH helps a lot but is not needed to best other phantasms. In small party you’ll need a condi heavy ally/allies to cover those ~7 unique conditions. If solo and you need ranged, might as well go with the iDuelist. Stagger them up and with 3 up their DPS will be higher than Swordsman thanks to Sharper Images, and definitely higher than 3 warlocks.

The reason I said ‘many variables’ is because if you look at them one at a time they might not seem significant, but if you consider the whole picture in general you realize running staff has very little to no real advantage compared to other options.

Well true the CD is more about the replacement mechanism than the DpS. However I accept that argument.

But the rest of the message is just a long version of “7 conditions” and “PH”.

Yup, it is.

Personally, the only reason I run staff in PvE is during dragonite farming while trying to see how high my warlocks can hit. Still trying to break the 20k barrier.

You should do Dwayna – my highest crit was 26k there. <3

Well, still the utility of the staff 2 is strong enough to take it sometimes even in dungeons. The aa isn’t that terrible for a single target tbh. 2k dps ø.